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After talking with a friend I have refined my guess as to what's going on. Here's my scenario: The fan doesn't draw more than 1 HP or so, but the A/C compressor can draw something like 5-15 peak. On a hot day you've got the extra load of the compressor and an increased tendency (because of hotter air coming in to mix with the fuel) for knock. The lower the fuel octane, the worse this will be. So the engine computer is detecting the beginnings of knock and retarding timing, making the engine produce significantly less power and torque for a given throttle opening and RPM. To get the power you need, you have to push the pedal down significantly more, and the computer needs to shift the transmission down a gear and use higher RPMs to get the needed torque at the driving wheels. Under this scenario your behavior would qualify as "normal," and you would still have almost all of your normal horsepower, especially if you burn premium.
This would explain a significant apparent "softness" in throttle response and selection of a lower gear, but only a modest decrease in peak HP. I don't recall if your experience was of this softness and lower gear selection, or whether you were really way down on peak horsepower, even if you were willing to use all of the throttle.
In any case, it looks like a tough thing to understand without data logging.
Thanks for putting up with my speculation. Anybody else got theories to advance?
My feeling was also: how could the fan take so much power? Although an other poster mentioned something about having a viscous fan clutch fail on a GM SUV in a mode that it was always locked. He said that it took a huge amount of power away.
One thing I should have mentioned: the dealer hooked up the OBD II and it appeared that everything was fine on my 4Runner (as far as everything it reports/logs).
The other thing is that the sound of that fan spinning faster than normal is very distinct and correlates perfectly with the loss-of-power condition. When I hear the fan, I have the loss of power in all cases and visa versa.
However I don't want to fall into the trap of jumping to conclusions either.
I talked a little about what gets logged by the computer with the mechanic. He seemed to think that if there were anything wrong with the engine managment that something would have been logged and shown up.
As far as the bad gas theory, I haven't been able to change the vehicle's behavior through many tanks of gas (both 87 and 91 octane) from various different gas stations on the CO Front Range.
As far as why the clutch seems more locked when you start up, your "fluid settling" theory sounds plausable.
As far as the "fan in backwards" idea, I know it's going the right way in my case. Also, if a fan could be put in backwards, it would still blow in the correct direction anyway; the blades would just be curved such that the leading edge was convex instead of concave, causing a reduction in efficiency.
I wish I could get this all figured out and fixed so I could quit obsessing over it.
In the mean time it's very helpful to get everyone's ideas/opinions from this forum.
-Eric
Is it wise to wait for the 04 to appear in order to get a better 03 price or won't it make any difference besides a lower APR?
I don't expect the front grill to change for the 04's.
You post caught my eye on the new grill.
If they did change the grill for '04 I wonder what their motivation was. Maybe it is associated with getting more airflow through the radiator. I'm speculating around my issue with "power loss with the fan kicking in".
Thoughts/comments from anyone???
Thanks,
Eric
Changes for '04:
Colors red and green are dropped
Charcoal seat on SE changed to stone
Color white now available on the Limited
3rd row seat for the SR5 and Limited, not SE
All cladding is now color keyed to car color.
The SE things:
Sport Package
(NH) X-REAS Shock Absorber
Silver Radiator Grille
Silver Door Handle/Rear License plate garnish
Color Keyed Heated Outside Mirrors
It has silicon inside it. This makes the surface shine and look new. It also acts as a magnifier for UV rays so it drys out and cracks dashes and promotes dry rot in rubber. Also it ATTRACTS dust. Last, the stuff is almost impossible to remove. To get it off you need to get a pile of cotton rags. Apply silicon remover to one, wipe it on the panel once in one direction. Throw it away and repeat with the next towel until its all removed. If you don't, you'll just move it around and not remove it. It will stay on for the life of the car with ONE application until removed with the above procedure. Scrubbing a panel with something like a green scrubby pad will only drive it further into the surface and make it nearly impossible to remove. If you are going to use a vinyl cleaner for the dash, etc. use one that has no silicon and has UV protectors in it, like wipes available from Mothers. A lot of people use Pledge with great success.
Also, I have had ArmorAll on my tires for as long as I can remember (at least 10 years) and the side walls last as long as the tread without any sign of dry rot.
I will not make any claims that ArmorAll is good for anything except shine, but it harms nothing. If silicone harmed rubber, silicone grease would not be used as a lubricant for rubber bushings.
<<The oil filter is underneath on the driver's side. You have to take off the front metal skid plate (there are two of them, 4 bolts each). I took off the second skid plate in order to get to the drain plug, then found the plastic door on the second skid plate, so you can get to the drain plug without removing the second skid plate. Don't know what a noninterference engine is, so can't help you there.>>
Here is a picture to better show a interference and non-interference engine.
http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=981&location_id=52- 4
On the way up north I tried to vary my speed for break-in, but only 200RPM changed the speed by 10-12MPH in top gear. Before heading back I thought about the drive up and concluded that it was a smooth vehicle, but no match for the adrenal in my wife's Audi A6 2.7 biturbo produces. I also decided to do whatever it took to vary the RPM by forcing shifts on the way home(the heck with the gas mileage for now, FYI got 17MPG measured on the first 300 miles).
WOW, what a difference. It's a rocket and gives me very nearly the same uber-alles feeling that I get in the A6. The adaptive transmission nearly reads your mind and after a while you can make it shift almost when you want. The drive train combined with the X-Res really makes it interesting to drive on the highway, Can't wait to try some off-road driving. All in all a very unique, supremely versatile vehicle.
BTW many thanks to the 4Runner/Porsche Trailer poster who thought X-Reas was great and deserved a careful comparison test (with/without, same engine, a V8). Initially I couldn't tell much difference so I was going to buy the cheaper SR-5. After my own with/without test I sprang for the Sport Edition. Sure glad I did and I'm also glad I got the V8 with it's terrific new transmission and full time 4 wheel.
Hope this helps other performance oriented drivers make a good choice. If only the steering was a bit quicker in the SE, I'll bet it could nearly become a cult performance car.
BTW2 The runner up to the 4Runner for me was the Mitsubishi Evolution believe it or not. Ultimately the practical advantages of an auto xmission won me over, but boy was a close call, the Evo is amazing. After today's drive I'm pretty sure I made the right choice. Seems I got some very interesting performance in a practical, versatile package.
There is no question that it attracts dust, one of its major drawbacks. Who wants a product that attracts dust to the interior of their cars? Who wants a product that make their dashboards overly GLOSSY, inviting glare from the windshield? It is greasy and difficult to remove. Do you want dirt sticking to your tires after you shine them? No thanks, I'll stick to products that are proven to be much much better.
Show me a list of professional detailers that use and/or recommend Armor All for dashboards, I bet it will be tough to find ANY at all. Check out some of the Detailing message boards and see how many people use that product. Look through auto enthusiast boards and see how many people complain about dashboards that brown and other problems from using it. I see NO REASON at all to use a product such as Armor All when their are BETTER products out there.
2003 pro:
V8.
great handling.
smother over road bumps.
larger interior and exterior.
larger fuel tank 23 verses 18 gallons.
finally hood actuator and not a prop rod.
rear seat arm rest.
115v AC outlet.
garage door opener.
eye glass compartment.
softer leather seats.
front seats has more lumbar support.
side air bags & curtain.
close to selling price of 1998.
MPG/distance display.
compass & auto dimming rear mirror.
filtered interior air.
4 wheel disc brakes.
power assisted rear door latch opener/closer.
running board lights? (not much of a factor)
No power antenna.
standard equipment, full tank of gas.
standard equipment alarm and remote doors opener.
Toyota nation customer service representatives.
2003 con:
low electric window switches.
all time 4 wd.
lower front seat head room.
3 pod design dash.
recommended 91 octane fuel.
Wish list:
oil pressure & battery voltage gauges.
get rid of the port distributor option/charges.
improved sales experience.
all time 4 wd.
Full-time 4WD is one of the best features of the new 4Runner, IMO.
Bob
If you search discussions in "maintenance and repair" you'll get a variety of opinions. There have been quite a few reports that the Armor All formulations of some years back would produce a shiny, slick surface, and that the protective effects were nil or negative. Many claim that the current formulation is significantly improved, but not the best protectant out there.
One of the best-liked protectants for rubber, vinyl, fiberglass, etc. is 303. I believe its full name is 303 aerospace protectant or something like that. I've had good luck with it, and it can even out the appearance of a vinyl dash without addng too much gloss. The site for this product describes (their claims anyway) the protective mechanisms, including absorbing UV in a sacrifical way.
303 is a bit hard to find - whitewater shops will have it (used on drysuit gaskets), and spa shops often have it for maintaining hot tub vinyl covers. I don't think I've ever seen it in auto parts stores around here.
Steve, Host
BTW, the cracking in rubber tires (dry rot) has been most often blamed on ozone. Tires are not subject to UV degradation owing to the carbon black in the rubber.
That portion of the dash is molded thinner and plyable for the passenger airbag to come out of. This might be the cause although I have not noticed it in mine. I can hear the difference when tapping on the dash when I get to the airbag.
If you notice, Toyota has made the dash totally seamless and intergrated the airbag into the dash without the ugly hole with plastic plate covering or molded lines in the material.
It has silicon inside it. This makes the surface shine and look new. It also acts as a magnifier for UV rays so it drys out and cracks dashes and promotes dry rot in rubber. Also it ATTRACTS dust. Last, the stuff is almost impossible to remove."
This is all crapola unless it can be substantiated. I don't like the shine so I don't use ArmorAll but I've never heard of it causing damage.
As for attracting dust, the rubbing action causes that. Same as when you wax your car, the friction causes the attraction.
"I would still like to know why my 10 and 9 year dashes are not falling apart because of this "junk armor all"
Maybe you are lucky, maybe the dash materials are better in your vehicle, maybe Armor All doesn't crack any or all dashes. Your dash may not be falling apart, but it's greasy, too shiny and probably has a lot of dust on it, unless you wipe it every single day.
The "look" of Armor All on a dash reminds me of the "obviously overdone" treatment you see on cheap used car lots. The dash has that "cover up the flaws" shiny look, just like the tires they paint that you can see your face in. To me, the first thing I think of at a car show when I see the "Armor All-ed" vehicles is that they just came from a used car lot and one of the salesman detailed them between customers.
Sivi1 said:
"a mbenz rep asked "who detailed my benz",and i told him i did."
What does this prove? What detail experience and knowledge would a typical car salesman have? Most (but not all) know very little about the basic features and functions of the vehicles they are selling, let alone information about professional car detailing.
To each his own, if you like the look and feel of Armor All then by all means continue to use it. It is difficult to find many people that like it, most it seems have very little good things to say about it.
Armor All dries out fast and requires constant re-application if you want to retain that "cleaned-up used car look". There are certain parts of the interior you do not want to get it on as it is such a pain to remove from anything. In my opinion, and that of so many others, there are BETTER alternatives.
(The replacement guide says to replace the 4.7 V8 timing belt at 90,000 miles.)
http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=981&location_id=52- - 4
The layer of ArmorAll is simply too thin to produce any magnification by refraction. Look elsewhere for explanations of perceived problems.
tidester, host
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Thx for your comments.
I have heard some bad things about using ArmorAll, but all I can tell you that I have not had one problem over the last 25 years of using it.
I am using Mequirs product on my wife vehicle, just because of some of the bad press on ArmorAll, and I like Meguirs products.
All-new in 2003, for 2004 the popular 4Runner adds a tire pressure warning system as standard equipment on all models. Additional features include an available third-row seat on Limited and SR5 models, providing seven-passenger capability. All 4Runners will also feature a back-up camera monitoring system on the optional navigation system. When the 4Runner equipped with the navigation system is in the reverse mode a video camera mounted in the rear door automatically displays a wide-angle view behind the vehicle to assist the driver in safely pulling out of parking lots or garages.
The SR5 grade 4Runner will carry a base MSRP ranging from $27,170 for the 4x2 V6 with a four-speed automatic transmission to $30,695 for the 4x4 V8 with a five-speed automatic, representing an increase of $115, or 0.4 percent. Prices for the SR5 Sport model will range from $28,410 for the 4x2 V6 with a four-speed automatic, to $31,935 for the 4x4 V8 with a five-speed automatic, an increase of $190, or 0.7 percent. The premium Limited grade 4Runner will carry a base MSRP ranging from $33,445 for the 4x2 V6 with a four-speed automatic to $36,970 for the 4x4 V8 with a five-speed automatic, an increase of $190, or 0.5 percent.
The back-up camera system is an awesome feature, have seen that on other cars. As for the 3rd row seats, sales hype is all that is as most likely they will be barely large enough to hold a couple of 3-year olds.
Thanks
Just received this letter from Toyota today about this special campaign. It was explained on the letter that "on certain 2003 model year vehicles, an electrical contact in the throttle body motor may malfunction. If this occurs, the Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) will illuminate on the dash, and the engine ECM will store a trouble code and place the vehicle on a "limp-home" mode". They further added that in California, where emission requirements are more strict than others, this could result in a failure in a smog test. However, they stated that Toyota will inspect the car and replace the throttle body assembly at no cost.
Did anybody else receive this notice. I am not that mechanically inclined so all this info is foreign to me. How serious is this issue? Should I be worried about possibly driving to work or home in "limp-home" mode if I do not get this fixed soon?
Any opinion would be much appreciated.
Thanks
My 03 Sport 4Runner was finished and waiting for pick up for 15 minutes before Mr. Silver Team decided he could bring my keys and ticket over. The cashier tried to give me a ticket for $5 off my next oil change. (They add shop charges to that oil change so it comes out to the same cost as without the ticket )
My dealer is so bad he gives a wonderful vehicle like my 4Runner a bad name.
I am going to the next closest Toyota dealer.
Most visors are cardboard wrapped fabric so the 4Runner's are nice. They come with that additional flip down visor so you can block the side window and windshield at the same time.
I think as far as visors go they are very nice.
It showed me all the changes already mentioned except for the following:
Charcoal colored seats available on Sports Edition.
The only model that will have the camera is the Limited because it is the
only one with the NAV system. That is what the brochure shows - that you
can not get the nav system and camera without buying the limited..