Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

abacomike · April 2015

stever said:

So if a shopping cart falls off a gravel truck in a parking garage and hits your hood while you are getting stung by a bee, you're covered?

No! Just the "Bee" is covered!

fezo · April 2015

gg - I knew you were a reasonable man.

driver100 · April 2015

carnaught said:

driver100 said:

the top of the door has a beam and because of all the tugging that is showing cracks, a guy will come out and do an estimate to get a new top beam.

*Guy gives me 3 senarios;
1.All new doors and windows. Door will break really badly one day. New doors are insulated and won't get cracks $2900.
2. Just get new top beam and top row replaced to make it stronger $1400
3. Just replace top beam. $318

Driver, I had a similar problem on older doors and the doors were not closing completely. They were not stabilized from the top, and were at risk of cracking. I had the top beam reinforced with an added beam, like option 3. This was after I got a "second opinion" who said all new doors were not needed. This seemed to solve the problem and was much less costly.

I know it's not exactly the same situation you have; your results may vary.

Actually it does sound very similar. Ours have not cracked to the point where it is not stable, but that is probably the next step.

I would say that is confirming my thought to add something to strengthen the door where it is cracked. The doors are only 6 years old and I have seen doors that still work well over 20 years old. It also confirms my thoughts they salesman will say whatever he has to to try to sell $3000 worth of doors instead of $300 for a new top beam.

abacomike · April 2015

I don't know how many of our posters here follow golf, especially the Masters Tournament in Augusta, but this championship is one of the most exciting I've seen in many years. Jordan Spieth, the 21 year old Texan has been leading since day one. His play has been as close to perfection as one can get. Yet, right within reach are Phil Michelson, Rory McIlroy, and even Tiger Woods is still within reach. But this young Texan may not have the flare of those behind him, but he is fundamentally a phenom.

If you get a chance later this afternoon, give the Masters a look - records have and will be broken this year!

[Deleted User] · April 2015

Oh, mama! This weekend I had an opportunity to drive a 4-door VW GTI with a 6-speed manual and...drum roll...Performance Pack, the very first PP to arrive at the dealership. What a fun experience. The sales rep was a GTI fan himself and owned an ECU-chipped 2015 GTI, and with that background he was one of the more informed sales reps I've come across.

The car can handle. We took it through city streets, suburban areas, and the freeway with a long on-ramp to fully test the acceleration. High speeds through tight bends resulted in flat and predictable turns with no feeling of front-wheel-drive understeer. Torque steer was just barely perceptible at full throttle and peak torque, but even then it was easily manageable. What I don't know is if theminimized torque steer was due to the Performance Pack electromechanical limited slip differential. I'd like to drive a non-PP at some point to compare that versions electronic open differential against the PP mechanical diff.

The seats, oh those lovely seats. Deep bolstering on the seat bottom and seat back hugged my body perfectly, providing phenomenal lateral support through turns as well as comfortable cruising. Larger framed folks would probably find the seats too tight.

There was a bit of throttle lag off the line in first gear until the turbo spooled around 1,800 RPM, and then the torque kicks in and accelerates the little hatch like a rocket. The manual tranny was awesome. I do miss rowing gears. Have I mentioned that before? The clutch lever throws were precise, and the clutch peddle engagement light and intuitive. Even being new to the car I felt in full control.

The suspension surprised me. With low profile tires on 18" rims I was expecting to come away sore after driving over winter-ravaged streets. Not so. Don't get me wrong, the ride is far from supple and is not going to be confused with a Camry, but given how controlled the handling is through corners I would have expected a jarring ride. I did feel the road imperfections, but they didn't result in painful impacts through the cabin.

The Performance Pack brakes are absolutely huge for a vehicle as light as the GTI, carrying over from the R. Both front and back rotors are vented, and the 18" wheels are a tight fit over the front calipers. The large GTI badge on the red painted front calipers was a nice touch.

GTI-specific interior bits spruced up the place nicely. Metal peddles, GTI flat bottom steering wheel, textured black trim in place of the faux aluminum, golf ball shifter, aluminum door inserts, and of course the iconic tartan plaid fabric seats.

The GTI is genuinely a mature daily driver hot hatch. I could drive the car as a practical and versatile transportation tool most days while returning respectable gas mileage, and then when my desire for youthful driving arose I could dip into the torque reserves and turn it into a playful toy.

abacomike · April 2015

Tyguy, what a stupendous review of the new VW GTI with Performance Pack. If I was shorter, less plump and 20 years younger, you would have convinced me that this GTI was the car all enthusiasts would drool over, including ME!

stickguy · April 2015

There have been a few performance cars (Fiesta ST and I think the Focus come to mind) where the seats were a deal breaker. I am not that wide, but still felt like a 1# sausage jammed into a 1/2# casing. And it was worse on the passenger side for my wife.

ab348 · April 2015

abacomike said:
I don't know how many of our posters here follow golf, especially the Masters Tournament in Augusta, but this championship is one of the most exciting I've seen in many years. Jordan Spieth, the 21 year old Texan has been leading since day one. His play has been as close to perfection as one can get. Yet, right within reach are Phil Michelson, Rory McIlroy, and even Tiger Woods is still within reach. But this young Texan may not have the flare of those behind him, but he is fundamentally a phenom.

If you get a chance later this afternoon, give the Masters a look - records have and will be broken this year!

This is always my favorite weekend of the year. Augusta National is such a beautiful course and it looks fabulous on TV. I would be happy if any of the leading three win, but especially if Mickelson can somehow pull it off. Hopefully CBS will not over-hype Tiger the way they usually do.

abacomike · April 2015

ab348, I agree with your comments. I love Phil Mickelson and would love to see him win another green jacket. But I am also looking at the younger phenoms who are the future of the game. The way Jordan Spieth had played these past three days amazes me. He is not cocky! He is naturally talented! He doesn't "tweak" his game like so many of the older pros do. He has outstanding basics and does not get upset or angry or put on any shows. I'd settle for him winning as well!

driver100 · April 2015

tyguy said:
Oh, mama! This weekend I had an opportunity to drive a 4-door VW GTI with a 6-speed manual and...drum roll...Performance Pack, the very first PP to arrive at the dealership. What a fun experience. The sales rep was a GTI fan himself and owned an ECU-chipped 2015 GTI, and with that background he was one of the more informed sales reps I've come across.

Great review Ty....car sounds like a blast. How much are they asking for the little beast?

nyccarguy · April 2015

@tyguy - fantastic write up of a GTI w/ Performance Pack.

I saw a few interesting cars advertised in the paper at an MB dealer (no haggle) not too far from me:

2012 Prius (has backup camera & hot seats, so a III?). Red with black (stock wheels). 61K miles. $15,449.

2010 (hard to believe this is 5 years old) Miata. Stick. Grey over Black. 38K miles. $$15,794.

2012 BMW 650i Coupe. ///M-Sport Pkg & 6 speed stick. 29K miles. Asking $49,951. Me thinks they took this in on a trade for $38 - $39K?

driver100 · April 2015

I think we have a buyer for the 2008 Uplander. A lady who is an assistant to the lawyer overseeing the estate told her husband and he works for a company that buys and sells cars. He will pay the $5000....no hassle.

So the car is gone. These people were horders so there is a huge amount to get rid of. He didn't throw out anything. There is a pail full of WD-40 cans, old rusted tools, old coke and other soda bottles, cans of food which expired in 2008, ancient sewing machine, a wooden stereo in a cabinet, a Motorola works in the drawer TV (hasn't worked for decades) and on and on. You can hardly walk through the garage or upstairs rooms unless you push stuff out of the way.

Even if he wanted something and he knew he had it he would never be able to find it. The rule was if you haven't used it in 3 years you will never find it anyway...so just toss it.

Anything worthwhile will go to an auction house. The rest is junk that will go to charity or a dumpster.

oldfarmer50 · April 2015

Thought this was just a problem on BMWs.

A person at work was having some shifting problems on the auto tranny 2910 Jeep Liberty. We experts asked her if she had checked the fluid level and she said it had no transmission fluid dip stick. Huh?

We thought she was kidding but no, she even had he brother come over and look for it and nope, no dip stick.

What's the thought process behind designing a car like that? As far as I know there was no dash light or other warning for low fluid which could compensate for having a direct way of measurement.

As it turned out she had leaking cooling lines and a few other things which totaled over $900 (dealer prices). How would you know the dealer wasn't hosing you without a means to check?

Are car owners that clueless these days?

stickguy · April 2015

yes, manufacturers want to keep people out from under the hood. still seems silly not having a means to check something like that. and if you aren't having a mechanical check, you better have a sensor/readout of some kind to tell you.

But, trannys are still supposed to be lifetime. I asked the dealer (and confirmed with a Volvo specialist indy guy) that unless the trans is having problems, they don't touch the fluid. So even though I was trying to spend money to have it done, they wouldn't take it.

the logic is that the fluid is so special it does not need changing, and doing it can cause more problems (stirring up stuff in the trans I guess) so leave well enough alone.

robr2 · April 2015

I know that BMW removed oil dip sticks a few years back. I wonder if they brought them back?

driver100 · April 2015

oldfarmer50 said:
Thought this was just a problem on BMWs.

A person at work was having some shifting problems on the auto tranny 2910 Jeep Liberty. We experts asked her if she had checked the fluid level and she said it had no transmission fluid dip stick. Huh?

We thought she was kidding but no, she even had he brother come over and look for it and nope, no dip stick.

What's the thought process behind designing a car like that? As far as I know there was no dash light or other warning for low fluid which could compensate for having a direct way of measurement.

As it turned out she had leaking cooling lines and a few other things which totaled over $900 (dealer prices). How would you know the dealer wasn't hosing you without a means to check?

Are car owners that clueless these days?

That does seem strange....not having a transmission fluid dipstick. Here are instructions for checking oil in a 2010 Jeep Liberty. This one doesn't have a dipstick...they suggest seeing your mechanic.
CHECKING FLUID LEVEL IN JEEP LIBERTY - NO DIPSTICK

I think Jeep is trying to be more like BMW/Mercedes, get your car serviced at their garage. Besides, probably 90% of the population has no idea how to check oil levels, and they will do more harm than good to the car.

Interesting though. Basically, you should never have to add automatic transmission fluid for over 100k miles. It is a sealed unit and the fluid doesn't get contaminated.

driver100 · April 2015

robr2 said:
I know that BMW removed oil dip sticks a few years back. I wonder if they brought them back?

In a BMW you can at least check it on your monitor system....witha nice little graphic display.

No need to get hands dirty, or even lift the hood!

explorerx4 · April 2015

Back when my daughter was managing a BMW fleet, one of the 5's threw a warning message about the transmission fluid level. Low and don't drive the car. They had to get it flat bedded to the dealer 75 miles away, then it took 2 people to get it back.
My 02 Explorer didn't have a transmission dip stick. I changed the fluid at 30k and 60k. I was trying to be proactive about the maintenance. Transmission went out at 89k.

stickguy · April 2015

I will admit that I have not checked my ATF fluid in a very long time. Possibly, ever. Partly because my car was always a stick. But mostly because I never liked doing it (engine running, all that stuff). It gets checked every oil change at the dealer, so I never saw the need. Oil of course needs to be checked in between!

oldfarmer50 · April 2015

Wow.

Just posted a lengthy post and it up and disappeared. ???????

abacomike · April 2015

oldfarmer50 said:

Wow. Just posted a lengthy post and it up and disappeared. ???????

Happens to me frequently. Definitely must be some "gremlins" in this code (had to keep something about cars in this post).

Remember the American Motors Gremlin?

Farmer - must have something to do with that upstate New York slang you use!

explorerx4 · April 2015

Farm, Are you still thinking about a new Mustang. Drove by a dealer today. They had an orange GT and a yellow Ecoboost parked out front. I liked the yellow better.

graphicguy · April 2015

oldfarmer50 said:
Wow.

Just posted a lengthy post and it up and disappeared. ???????

That's what happens when you dis BMW

abacomike · April 2015

Explorer, speaking of orange, the BMW dealer put on display at the mall an orangie-cantelopie-pumpkinie 4 series coupe. That is the only way I can describe the color. It has black interior and I believe the 4 cylinder with turbos.

I don't personally like the color - should have made the color more in the brighter orange or burnt orange spectrum. Wonder why BMW would come out with such a "blah" color.

stever · April 2015

You may want to start composing in Notepad or something @oldfarmer50, at least until you (or we) figure out why your posts are getting lost.

oldfarmer50 · April 2015

stickguy said:
yes, manufacturers want to keep people out from under the hood. still seems silly not having a means to check something like that. and if you aren't having a mechanical check, you better have a sensor/readout of some kind to tell you.

But, trannys are still supposed to be lifetime. I asked the dealer (and confirmed with a Volvo specialist indy guy) that unless the trans is having problems, they don't touch the fluid. So even though I was trying to spend money to have it done, they wouldn't take it.

the logic is that the fluid is so special it does not need changing, and doing it can cause more problems (stirring up stuff in the trans I guess) so leave well enough alone.

Trannys last a lifetime? Then why do you routinely see them fail long before the engine? When my son's car started slipping the first thing I did was check fluid levels. Way down so I added a quart. Good for a week and problem started again so I crawled in the dirt and found leaking cooling lines. Simple fix but I wouldn't have known where to start looking if i couldn't check the fluid level. Are we just suppose to trust the repair shop when they say "yep, tranny is fried give me $3000 for a rebuild"?

My Lincoln developed Torque converter shutter shortly after purchase. I checked for fluid level and when it was normal I knew it was common problem with Ford trannys of the era. Changed the fluid and filter with Ford spec fluid and problem solved. Without knowing that the fluid was ok I might have messed things up good trying to cheap my way out.

Even if 90% of owners don't know one end of a dipstick from the other they should still give you one.

oldfarmer50 · April 2015

stickguy said:
yes, manufacturers want to keep people out from under the hood. still seems silly not having a means to check something like that. and if you aren't having a mechanical check, you better have a sensor/readout of some kind to tell you.

But, trannys are still supposed to be lifetime. I asked the dealer (and confirmed with a Volvo specialist indy guy) that unless the trans is having problems, they don't touch the fluid. So even though I was trying to spend money to have it done, they wouldn't take it.

the logic is that the fluid is so special it does not need changing, and doing it can cause more problems (stirring up stuff in the trans I guess) so leave well enough alone.

Trannys last a lifetime? Then why do you routinely see them fail long before the engine? When my son's car started slipping the first thing I did was check fluid levels. Way down so I added a quart. Good for a week and problem started again so I crawled in the dirt and found leaking cooling lines. Simple fix but I wouldn't have known where to start looking if i couldn't check the fluid level. Are we just suppose to trust the repair shop when they say "yep, tranny is fried give me $3000 for a rebuild"?

My Lincoln developed Torque converter shutter shortly after purchase. I checked for fluid level and when it was normal I knew it was common problem with Ford trannys of the era. Changed the fluid and filter with Ford spec fluid and problem solved. Without knowing that the fluid was ok I might have messed things up good trying to cheap my way out.

Even if 90% of owners don't know one end of a dipstick from the other they should still give you one.

stever · April 2015

Looks like your transmission post was stuck in the automated spam filter @oldfarmer50. When I "restored" it, two of them appeared. Dunno, maybe the software thought you were posting the same thing over and over and grabbed it.

fezo · April 2015

I need this GTI talk to stop. I want at least anther couple of years from the Mazda. Then we can talk.

The Masters was great. Speith looked like he might falter a couple of times but it was like as soon as he'd realize anyone was getting close he kicked in another gear.

The Masters is always special to me. My dad, who was a very good golfer - scratch in his day - loved watching the Masters and I'd watch with him a lot. He'd have loved watching it on a HDTV. The course just looks so fabulous and you can read the break a putt is taking so much better. He'd also be very impressed with my Augusta National golf ball I picked up last year. I was in overnight in Augusta last March going from my friend's place in Tallahassee and my my nephew in Apex, NC. I stopped by a guard house and chatted with the guard for a bit. He was mostly tight lipped but after a bit directs me up the little entrance only maybe 25 feet and tells me "You've been on the grounds of Augusta National. You can cross that one of your bucket list," and handed me the golf ball with the logo on it.

I always thought of transmissions as being lifetime things except for Fords.

driver100 · April 2015

stever said:
You may want to start composing in Notepad or something @oldfarmer50, at least until you (or we) figure out why your posts are getting lost.

I used to copy after every paragraph or so, and then if I lost it at least I had most of it copied...and I can just paste it and do it again.

stickguy · April 2015

Ah, disappearing posts. the good old days. That used to happen to me, so I started copying the post before I hit submit, just in case I needed it again

[Deleted User] · April 2015

Thanks for the comments on the GTI fun. What a blast. I'm so very tempted to jump into one right now, but our timing may be dependent on what whether or not my orthopedic surgeons confirms a knee replacement is needed (my left leg). One way or another, I want one

Driver, cost for a standard GTI is about $25,000 US, and you can add up to about $11,000 in options. The way we'd want it, with xenon headlights and the Performance Pack, we'd be looking at $27,000ish invoice shipped. Not bad at all.

stickguy · April 2015

Speaking of tires (which I am sure we were recently, on one thread or another), in the Sunday paper today the auto writer had a piece about the proliferation of ultra low profile tires. Interviewed a local (philly burbs) guy that bought a 2013 MB E550, back in IIRC May, 2013 (slightly used). As of now, he has had to replace 6 tires!

Total outlay, about $2K, and untold aggravation. Even better, he dug up the service history of the original (brief) owner. They had 3 replaced (wonder why they traded it in 6-9 months after buying it!)

Eventually had to garage it, waiting until enough road repairs are done that he can risk driving it again. And yes, the roads in this area (greater Philadelphia) really are that bad.

I think it had 255/35 somethings on it.

Mike is lucky to have pothole free roads in Fla!

roadburner · April 2015

tyguy said:
Thanks for the comments on the GTI fun. What a blast. I'm so very tempted to jump into one right now, but our timing may be dependent on what whether or not my orthopedic surgeons confirms a knee replacement is needed (my left leg). One way or another, I want one

Driver, cost for a standard GTI is about $25,000 US, and you can add up to about $11,000 in options. The way we'd want it, with xenon headlights and the Performance Pack, we'd be looking at $27,000ish invoice shipped. Not bad at all.

If I was going FWD again it would be either a GTI S with the Lighting and Performance Packages or a Fiesta ST in Molten Orange with the Recaro Package.

abacomike · April 2015

stickguy said:

Speaking of tires (which I am sure we were recently, on one thread or another), in the Sunday paper today the auto writer had a piece about the proliferation of ultra low profile tires. Interviewed a local (philly burbs) guy that bought a 2013 MB E550, back in IIRC May, 2013 (slightly used). As of now, he has had to replace 6 tires! Total outlay, about $2K, and untold aggravation. Even better, he dug up the service history of the original (brief) owner. They had 3 replaced (wonder why they traded it in 6-9 months after buying it!) Eventually had to garage it, waiting until enough road repairs are done that he can risk driving it again. And yes, the roads in this area (greater Philadelphia) really are that bad. I think it had 255/35 somethings on it. Mike is lucky to have pothole free roads in Fla!

Definitely!!! There is no way I could have put 2-245/35 R19 XL's on the front and 2-275/30 R19 XL's on the rear of my car if I lived in NYC or Chicago or Philly. Potholes would have killed these tires.

The only problem I have been having is with automatic car washes - scraping the alloy wheels against the railings. So the car must be hand washed - no way around that. Luckily my dealer has been gracious enough to repair the right rear wheel and replace the right front wheel when the valets refuse to follow instructions about low profile tires on AMG's or on cars like mine with those rims and tires.

From my research with the powers that be, this happens more frequently than one would think. I could never take this car to a commercial car wash because they would chew the wheels up continually.

I keep 37 lbs of air in all 4 tires and in the heat down here, they inflate up to 40/41 lbs when driven at higher speeds. I could never keep that much air pressure in those tires if I lived up north. I think they recommend 33 lbs front and 35 lbs rear, cold. That's too low according to my mechanic at Mercedes. He said that at those lower pressures, the tires wouldn't last 10,000 miles. At these inflations, which are heavy load inflations, I should get 15,000 miles on the tires.

I tried driving with the standard all-season tires, but the handling was too sloppy for me after coming out of the CLS 550. If ordered with the car, I would have paid $2500 extra for the option. This way, by ordering through the dealer as an accessory, I paid $1290 tax and labor included.

Car handles more like the CLS did and I love it.

driver100 · April 2015

tyguy said:
Thanks for the comments on the GTI fun.

Driver, cost for a standard GTI is about $25,000 US, and you can add up to about $11,000 in options. The way we'd want it, with xenon headlights and the Performance Pack, we'd be looking at $27,000ish invoice shipped. Not bad at all.

Seems like a lot of car and fun for the money!

fezo · April 2015

You are pushing me more and more toward he GTI. I'm holding my breath for two years. Performance and light packages would be just about perfect. I'd like a sunroof (sorry. roadburner) nut have no desire to get the doo dads they want for the privilege. Guess that means the standard stereo...

imidazol97 · April 2015

When I see a Prius, I think of this car which I've seen around the
area for years.

driver100 · April 2015

imidazol97 said:
When I see a Prius, I think of this car which I've seen around the
area for years.

What does driving a Prius around have to do with "No More Nuclear Weapons"? Don't they run on electricity anyway? Isn't that made in nuclear plants. And, won't the other guys still be able to build nuclear weapons?

abacomike · April 2015

If you think it's easy to look at an upside down photo of a Prius, let alone any car or SUV, you are mistaken or You suffer from a visual impairment!

cdnpinhead · April 2015

imidazol97 said:
When I see a Prius, I think of this car which I've seen around the
area for years.

This is why I refer to this car as a Pious.

It's a lifestyle statement, dontcha know (so long as you don't mind driving a nuclear- or coal-powered car with battery life-cycle environmental impact far beyond what most of the people driving these things know anything about).

suydam · April 2015

I think people buy them because they get great fuel economy. Thus enabling a nicer lifestyle overall.

imidazol97 · April 2015

abacomike said:
If you think it's easy to look at an upside down photo of a Prius, let alone any car or SUV, you are mistaken or You suffer from a visual impairment!

Upside down? It looked okay to me. But then I clicked on the actual picture
and it went to a larger version that is upside down? I took it on my Android
phone. Transferred to my PC using the charging cable. And it was upside
down so I turned it 180 deg. in Paint Shop Pro, saved it, and uploaded it
here.

I don't know how to change it. I'll try.

stever · April 2015

If it was a Tesla @cdnpinhead, I'd be more inclined to agree. But worldwide sales of Prii/Priuses since introduction are around 5 million. That's a lot to pin on lifestyle choices, and if you follow the money, it's high gas prices that moved sales. Now that gas is cheap (in the US anyway) and now that lots more cars are getting 40mpg on the highway, the economics aren't as attractive for driving one.

And all the batteries in the US get recycled, so I think that impact is a bit of a red herring - the life-cycle comparison to the Hummer a few years back was quickly shot down.

The biggest factor driving someone to be an "environmentalist" is the money - ergo my replacing my burnt out floods yesterday with LED floods. More money up front but a fast payback in energy savings.

abacomike · April 2015

imidazol97 said:

If you think it's easy to look at an upside down photo of a Prius, let alone any car or SUV, you are mistaken or You suffer from a visual impairment!
Upside down? It looked okay to me. But then I clicked on the actual picture and it went to a larger version that is upside down? I took it on my Android phone. Transferred to my PC using the charging cable. And it was upside down so I turned it 180 deg. in Paint Shop Pro, saved it, and uploaded it here. I don't know how to change it. I'll try.

Those Android phones don't get along very well with iPhones - so maybe that's the problem. Maybe I'm the only one who sees the photo upside down!!! Or maybe I'm the one with the visual impairment and everyone else is normal!!!!

imidazol97 · April 2015

abacomike said:

Those Android phones don't get along very well with iPhones - so maybe that's the problem. Maybe I'm the only one who sees the photo upside down!!! Or maybe I'm the one with the visual impairment and everyone else is normal!!!!

Not at all. I clicked on the picture on my PC and it expanded to a full version and that was
upside down. I infer that even though I turned the picture over 180 deg in Paint Shop Pro,
the picture didn't turn over. I saved the upside down picture. Of course, if on a pad or
phone, I could just turn it over.

I copied and saved a new version of the picture in PPP and then saved that
to the hard drive to load here on Edmunds.

I apologize for upsetting (literally turning some upside down) folks here.

imidazol97 · April 2015

Car cruise ins and car shows start this week for real in the area. I
feel like I just got out of school for the summer. I'll be able to go
browse the cars others bring.

abacomike · April 2015

imidazol97 said:

Those Android phones don't get along very well with iPhones - so maybe that's the problem. Maybe I'm the only one who sees the photo upside down!!! Or maybe I'm the one with the visual impairment and everyone else is normal!!!!
Not at all. I clicked on the picture on my PC and it expanded to a full version and that was upside down. I infer that even though I turned the picture over 180 deg in Paint Shop Pro, the picture didn't turn over. I saved the upside down picture. Of course, if on a pad or phone, I could just turn it over. I copied and saved a new version of the picture in PPP and then saved that to the hard drive to load here on Edmunds. I apologize for upsetting (literally turning some upside down) folks here.

I'm not upset. I'm pulling your leg, Imid!

abacomike · April 2015

Imid - if I ever tried to post a picture/photo on this site, both my computer (PC) and my iphone 6 would disintegrate in my hands. I couldn't post a picture even if my life depended on it! the fact that you were able to post a photo (upside down or right side up) is just short of a miracle to me with my limited computer skills.

imidazol97 · April 2015

abacomike said:

I'm not upset. I'm pulling your leg, Imid!

I was making a pun that I up ended folks, upset them, because my picture was whopper-jawed.

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