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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    fintail said:

    These are the twits I was referring to:

    http://jalopnik.com/this-couple-is-driving-cross-country-to-return-their-po-1753421381

    Interesting logic used by this fine pair. My vehicle pollutes a lot, and my sensitive little heart finds that offensive. Best thing for me to do is drive it cross country and beg for attention. No doubt gobs of time and money to spare, I feel a "for thee, not me" lecture from types like this.


    ruking1 said:



    I met one of those old hippies and his wife that you're talking about @ COSTCO. Both of us were looking to buy one of those 22 ft little giant ladders. He said without question, he could fit it into a Toyota PIOUS! ! I just looked@ him & smiled. I didn't say a word, but rolled my eyes, so my wife could see. Passing them in the parking lot, it was almost hilarious to see the ladder stick out of the back, blocking the hatch lid from closing. I knew before buying we had no issues with the 12 VW Touareg TDI. But really, this is not diesel related !

    Is it another case of Andy Warhol's 15 minutes of fame?

    If you had posted it first, from the get go, I would have waited to post my/ this anecdote another day! :D

    Great sunny day skiing @ Sierra Ski Ranch, Twi Bridges, CA! Denver Broncos are ahead! Chilli's in the slow cooker. So far, it's a great day !

    Another reason why talk of the death of diesel is not coming to pass.mWSJ: "The Climate Snow Job" http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-climate-snow-job-1453664732?mod=trending_now_1
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited January 2016
    texases said:

    gagrice said:

    Here is my position on the EPA/CARB. The tax payers hand them huge bundles of cash each year to protect our environment. Supposedly EPA tests 15% of all models sold to US. Yet over the 7 year range of VW TDI models not a single one was tested by them.

    How do you know this?
    I sent them a letter and received a reply that laid out their testing procedure. I was curious why after the change in testing diesels no longer were rated as highly. I think VW has proven the tests by the EPA do not reveal actual on the road emissions. Making them pretty much a joke.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    stever said:

    "Volkswagen's development of software to cheat diesel-emissions tests was an open secret in its engine development department, Germany's Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper said on Friday, citing results from VW's internal investigation.

    Many managers and staff dealing with emissions problems in the department knew of or were involved in developing the "defeat devices", said the newspaper, which researched the matter with regional broadcasters NDR and WDR."

    VW probe finds manipulation was open secret in department (money-marketuk.com)

    I do find that amazing, if true. The Ironic part is they would have gotten away with it, if not for the Europeans wanting to know how it was done.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    texases said:

    gagrice said:

    Here is my position on the EPA/CARB. The tax payers hand them huge bundles of cash each year to protect our environment. Supposedly EPA tests 15% of all models sold to US. Yet over the 7 year range of VW TDI models not a single one was tested by them.

    How do you know this?
    This is either a great question or y'all have been purposely totally clueless, this whole time, even as we (I) have been telling this board that the biannual diesel smog test did/ does and continues to NOT test/measure emissions !!! So all this moral outrage is FAKE! The EPA/CARB has only itself to blame! To say that they did not know that the biannual smog test did not measure diesel emissions would be a lie (hidden in plain sight) !! The protocols were set up to BE Schulz like !

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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,175
    Will we get this too?

    This is exactly what I want.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Nice look rig but we're not likely to get it in a diesel or gas version are we?
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,175
    I haven't heard any word of the US getting the C wagon - closest is the GLC. I like the wagon, it's good looking. and would be amazing with the 2.1 diesel.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, you do have good taste in cars.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    fintail said:

    I haven't heard any word of the US getting the C wagon - closest is the GLC. I like the wagon, it's good looking. and would be amazing with the 2.1 diesel.

    The nearest I can figure from the 14 GLK 250 BT, the C class version is approximately - 825 pounds lighter and does not push AWD! Mpg & accleration shoul be better, given the same drive train.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,175
    Yep. I think the wagon could be a legit 50 mpg contender with a smooth highway driver. Even with AWD, numbers would be impressive.
    ruking1 said:



    The nearest I can figure from the 14 GLK 250 BT, the C class version is approximately - 825 pounds lighter and does not push AWD! Mpg & accleration shoul be better, given the same drive train.

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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    fintail said:

    Yep. I think the wagon could be a legit 50 mpg contender with a smooth highway driver. Even with AWD, numbers would be impressive.

    ruking1 said:



    The nearest I can figure from the 14 GLK 250 BT, the C class version is approximately - 825 pounds lighter and does not push AWD! Mpg & accleration shoul be better, given the same drive train.

    I wouldn't doubt that at all ! They really do a fine job in & across their platforms & models with that DIESEL 2.1 TT L.

    Anecdotally, We're able to get 49.5 MPG ( 100 to 150 miles) coming out of the mountains (7,300 ft downgrade) & don't miss any opportunity to use the passing lanes, (left or right) unless someone is totally clueless in the mountains, driving ( scared or dangerously- brake lights on every curve) slow or is trying to be a vigilante (have never had this yet) in the SOS/DD trek. The very few behind me with the hair on fire, I encourage them to pass me! The game that I find challenging is to use the no fuel draw and to use the brakes as little as possible. Love those paddle shifters with that 7 speed A/T..

    But then, heaven forbid, the CUV/SUV segment is becoming popular in Europe? http://news.yahoo.com/vw-golf-europes-favorite-car-long-120226323.html
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    fintail said:

    Will we get this too?

    This is exactly what I want.

    You may have to pop over to Canada and pick one up. Though doubt you can pull it off. Here is at the Montreal Auto show.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNBF9id36sc
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would add the EPA to this list. What with allowing VW to get away with destroying the air. Dumping millions of gallons of toxic waste into the Colorado rivers. Telling the people of Flint their water was good. etc etc. Should put them on or near the top of what Americans hate about the US government.

    The federal government has joined the ranks of the bottom-of-the-barrel industries, according to a new survey from the American Customer Satisfaction Index. Americans' satisfaction level in dealing with federal agencies --everything from Treasury to Homeland Security -- has fallen for a third consecutive year, reaching an eight-year low.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans-hate-the-u-s-government-more-than-ever/
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,175
    I will have to start nagging the sales manager at the local dealership for news. I like to think it being sold 100 miles from me means we will get it too - but then again, they've had the B-class for ages, only here as a unicorn EV.
    gagrice said:



    You may have to pop over to Canada and pick one up. Though doubt you can pull it off. Here is at the Montreal Auto show.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNBF9id36sc

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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Yes the unicorn status is both a chicken & egg scenario. It has been that way for decades. "OLD example" 1987 TLC gasser/TDI available in CN markets. Only gas 1987 TLC in US markets.

    This is true in the used market also.So for example, My cousin, brought back a used (for US markets) V8 gas Mercedes-Benz station wagon, black on black (garaged in Belgium) He gave it to his brother, both to own & to drive. (some folks have all the luck) The brother thought it was an environmental hooligan. He promptly & probably sold it for pennies on the dollar. For whatever reason, he then bought a brand-new Prius ! ? This was inexplicable to me, as the brother only puts about 3000 miles year on a car!

    Canadian auto sales per year is FAR smaller than the US markets. This is especially true in niche markets, I.e. MB. So needless to say, a staion wagen, diesel are two more levels of niches , for niche, niche, niche, market !?
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I won't be test driving the GLC300d till they get a few at the dealers. So far none have shown up on our shores. Though the diesel and hybrid GLC are due this year. The dealers have a lot of the GLC300 gas model. Not any interest for me.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Without looking at the statistics, I would suspect it has & the diesel will have, the same to slightly better ( 240#'s lighter) mpg's & ratios: as the GLK 350/250 BT. 21 gasser mpg vs 36 diesel mpg. (real world & anecdotal)

    I'm liking the look of it ! If I didn't have the GLK 250 BT (2015 last model year), I think I could see my way to being a buyer of later model years, in this new generation. (MB diesel MSRP are still cheaper than the gas!?)

    Perhaps MB will pull a VW customer care scenario & offer a great deal going forward on a new MB diesel (I can dream in print, can't I?)
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    stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    gagrice said:

    ...


    If the CA emissions test for diesel was the same as for gas engines I don't think they would have gotten away with it. The gas test measures the exhaust while taking the vehicle up to speed on the rollers. As one of the car magazines showed that test was able to measure the excess NOx. So yes CARB did not do their job very well.
    ...

    The CA test for cars doesn't check the tailpipe emissions if the car has an OBD port. They just plug it in and retrieve the information. Same for diesel, I think.
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    stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    carboy21 said:


    Mr_Shiftright said:

    That argument lacks scientific rigor. The only real way to measure this alleged "pollution" is to determine the carbon footprint of the "fuel" that powers the vehicle. If you give the EV the right type of low carbon "juice", as is now available in many parts of the world, (and which varies greatly even state-to-state in the USA) the EV absolutely crushes the petrol or diesel car in carbon emissions, mile for mile.

    So critics of the EV's "greenness" need to support low carbon energy production. If they don't, then their argument is obviously not centered on an actual concern for emission levels. It lacks intellectual honesty.

    Producing batteries pollutes the environment 
    Disposing the batteries pollutes the environment 
    Producing electricity pollutes the environment
    Kalifornians want all the pollution in someone else's backyard
    Hypocrite liberal eco [non-permissible content removed] :smile:  
    So does producing any car, and so does powering any car, and so does recycling any car. This argument is a non-starter.

    Given the same low carbon type of fuel in each case, the EV will trounce the ICE.



    I believe the last time I checked up on this, the total pollution cost of the hybrids was about the same over the life of the car, when including the pollution costs of manufacturing (higher for the hybrid), the battery disposal, and etc. It would depend on the kind of car being compared, of course a heavy 10 MPG SUV probably wouldn't measure up. The batteries add pollution to the build and recycle.

    I drive a PHEV for the fun of it, for HOV access, and for fuel economy. Not for environmental reasons. And especially with my PHEV, the electricity environmental costs have to be considered.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    ruking1 said:

    Canadian auto sales per year is FAR smaller than the US markets. This is especially true in niche markets, I.e. MB. So needless to say, a staion wagen, diesel are two more levels of niches , for niche, niche, niche, market !?

    Always seems odd to me that the Canadians get the odd ball cars with their much smaller market and the US can't support a niche manufacturer like Suzuki, much less a niche car from a mainstream manufacturer like MB.
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    stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    edited January 2016
    stever said:

    ruking1 said:

    Canadian auto sales per year is FAR smaller than the US markets. This is especially true in niche markets, I.e. MB. So needless to say, a staion wagen, diesel are two more levels of niches , for niche, niche, niche, market !?

    Always seems odd to me that the Canadians get the odd ball cars with their much smaller market and the US can't support a niche manufacturer like Suzuki, much less a niche car from a mainstream manufacturer like MB.
    The diesel would be because they don't follow US pollution rules, I assume.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    stevedebi said:

    stever said:

    ruking1 said:

    Canadian auto sales per year is FAR smaller than the US markets. This is especially true in niche markets, I.e. MB. So needless to say, a staion wagen, diesel are two more levels of niches , for niche, niche, niche, market !?

    Always seems odd to me that the Canadians get the odd ball cars with their much smaller market and the US can't support a niche manufacturer like Suzuki, much less a niche car from a mainstream manufacturer like MB.
    The diesel would be because they don't follow US pollution rules, I assume.
    Good Car Bad Car puts CN 2015 new auto sales @ slightly more tha 1.9 M to US sales of slightly more than 17.470 M or 9.195 times greater.

    For all intents and purposes even though CN is a North American country, CN is really a foreign car market.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    stevedebi said:

    gagrice said:

    ...


    If the CA emissions test for diesel was the same as for gas engines I don't think they would have gotten away with it. The gas test measures the exhaust while taking the vehicle up to speed on the rollers. As one of the car magazines showed that test was able to measure the excess NOx. So yes CARB did not do their job very well.
    ...

    The CA test for cars doesn't check the tailpipe emissions if the car has an OBD port. They just plug it in and retrieve the information. Same for diesel, I think.
    The gas test is much more comprehensive. They put your car on rollers. Stick a sniffer in the exhaust pipe. Run the car up to a couple different speeds. While hooked up to the cars computer. There are several different emissions levels tested and put on the form. It also goes directly to the state.

    With diesel they just plug in to the OBD and run the engine and look for visible emissions. The OBD looks to make sure there are no modifications according to the tester. The form has about 5 items that just say Pass. No levels tested. No way to compare if my diesel puts out more or less CO, CO2, PM, NOx etc etc than my gas vehicles.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    gagrice said:

    stevedebi said:

    gagrice said:

    ...


    If the CA emissions test for diesel was the same as for gas engines I don't think they would have gotten away with it. The gas test measures the exhaust while taking the vehicle up to speed on the rollers. As one of the car magazines showed that test was able to measure the excess NOx. So yes CARB did not do their job very well.
    ...

    The CA test for cars doesn't check the tailpipe emissions if the car has an OBD port. They just plug it in and retrieve the information. Same for diesel, I think.
    The gas test is much more comprehensive. They put your car on rollers. Stick a sniffer in the exhaust pipe. Run the car up to a couple different speeds. While hooked up to the cars computer. There are several different emissions levels tested and put on the form. It also goes directly to the state.

    With diesel they just plug in to the OBD and run the engine and look for visible emissions. The OBD looks to make sure there are no modifications according to the tester. The form has about 5 items that just say Pass. No levels tested. No way to compare if my diesel puts out more or less CO, CO2, PM, NOx etc etc than my gas vehicles.
    Yes, all of us who have had to take our diesels to the CA smog test or smog only stations have known this & been saying this very clearly! Then, all you folks with the chicken little, moral outrage, working over time REFUSD to listen to what we were saying! Then, surprise surprise everybody's wondering how EPA/CARB could ever be fooled!? What about not measuring diesel emissions does everybody NOT understand??
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,711
    That's not the EPA test. I don't think they just plug into the OBD-II.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    texases said:

    That's not the EPA test. I don't think they just plug into the OBD-II.

    "Right", then if EPA by test procedures data knew that VW was cheating. That makes them guilty of felonies, for failure to report or take lawful action! Or there is a far greater EPA cover-up than heretofore has been revealed!? The guesses do not seem to pass muster !
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,711
    You really haven't followed this, right? The VW cheat allowed the computer to change the engine control settings when on test to pass. So it would pass an instrumented test, then turn off the cheat when on the road, increasing NOx.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    texases said:

    You really haven't followed this, right? The VW cheat allowed the computer to change the engine control settings when on test to pass. So it would pass an instrumented test, then turn off the cheat when on the road, increasing NOx.

    It is more of a case of you failing to understand, what you've been following!
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    No, @texases has it right.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    stever said:

    No, @texases has it right.

    Absolutely NOT/NO!

    REAL diesel emissions tests @ the biannual smog test level would have EASILY caught the " diesel cheating" & @ the anecdotal level! The software is/ was not geared to defeat a real world tail pipe only probe! That is how the WV emissions vendor & Iniversity staff saw it in the first place! It is reputed or seems to be designed to "trick" a full-on front end EPA FORMAL test ! We are now finding out EPA never did any anyway !! You got it wrong, also!

    EPA/CARB (defacto) basically told VW that they were NOT going to check emissions in the real world! To this day, CARB does/did NOT test my (REAL WORLD) diesels emissions. In fact they do no factually know what mine posts!!!! They of course, happily takes my money and says it has PASSED! REALLY ? If it has, why would they then threaten to withhold operational registration, unless I get a non approved recall? This totally defies logic!! IF they do it that way, I, you, we, will never know the true status of the VW 480,000 diesel fleet! !! Come on now guys, get a grip ! EPA/CARB are PO'D because they got caught (red handed) NOT doing THEIR jobs! It is no more complicated than that!
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    texases said:

    You really haven't followed this, right? The VW cheat allowed the computer to change the engine control settings when on test to pass. So it would pass an instrumented test, then turn off the cheat when on the road, increasing NOx.

    I don't think you are following what is going on. The EPA is supposed to test 15% of the models sold in the USA. Just plugging into the OBD is not testing what the car is putting out of the exhaust pipe. It is your right to defend the losers in the EPA. They have a history of screwing up BIG TIME.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    VW lied to the EPA (and the American Public) and put egg on the face of every diesel touter out there. That's the story.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    stever said:

    No, @texases has it right.

    No he is wrong. If I send an email to the IRS saying I paid my taxes that is not good enough. They want to see my money. The EPA should test for emissions coming out of the exhaust, not look at a computer screen that can tell them whatever the programmer wants to tell them. We should get a rebate on our taxes and defund the EPA.
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,711
    The whole point of the VW cheat was for a "real" emissions test, where all the gasses are analyzed. NOT a 'plug into the OBD II port' kind of test. 
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Give it another ten years and you'll be able to swap "electric" for "gasoline"

    "Gasoline consumption is growing at double the rate of diesel, Mr. Schiavetti said, adding “gasoline is winning clearly, and diesel is losing, particularly in Europe.”

    Gasoline is “Winning Clearly” Over Diesel, says Saras Director (WSJ - paywall link)
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited January 2016
    stever said:

    Give it another ten years and you'll be able to swap "electric" for "gasoline"

    "Gasoline consumption is growing at double the rate of diesel, Mr. Schiavetti said, adding “gasoline is winning clearly, and diesel is losing, particularly in Europe.”

    Gasoline is “Winning Clearly” Over Diesel, says Saras Director (WSJ - paywall link)

    Of course that is what the oil companies want. They have a glut of gas especially in the EU refineries. Why do you think close to the refineries in the MW gas is under a buck? Not because the oil producers are benevolent. They have too much of the stuff from the refining process. We use so much diesel in our transportation industry that it is not out of balance.

    The low prices have not gotten to CA. Our bottom price on RUG is $2.51. Close to me the cheapest is $3.03 and diesel is under 2 bucks. Location, location, location......
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Slow diesel news day!

    RBOB $ 1.01, ULSD $.9736 wholesale.

    Folsom, CA. RUG $ 2.15, PUG $ 2.37, ULSD $ 1.89

    So IF the European shift is to RUG/PUG, the Wall Street Journal article was a little light in the percentages shift and did not address the new Iranian production flow: I want to be/remain a US ULSD consumer! They will have to sell the EXCESS European & US, etc., refined ULSD somewhere! ?

    Prices will, of corse vary! However, the 2 critical ratios will not vary, very much, relative to gas. One ratio is the barrel of oil 19 gal RUG/PUG. The other ratio: so in the case of the 12 VW Touareg TDI, 33 mpg/19 mpg gas, & 14 MB GLK 250 BT, 36 mpg/21 mpg gas, the ratios will not change that much, relative to gas. Savings for these examples will be $10,000 /$9,000 respectively.

    The easy way to say that: would you prefer a higher cost per mile driven fuel costs? Or lower? The overwhelming majority would/are argue/arguing for the HIGHER cost per mile driven fuel cost ! Over 12 years & 180,000 miles, I know it works for me ! Y'all can use cheap calculators to compare.

    So if the overwhelming majority vote for a higher cost per mile driven fuel prices, why would one blame the oil companies for trying to raise the prices ?
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "I hate seeing this because VW is so important to the automotive industry. The vast majority of employees at VW are good people who put in an honest day's work and produce terrific cars. The same goes for the dealers and suppliers who rely on VW. They should not suffer because of this. But VW's leadership seems incapable of coming clean and confronting this scandal head on."

    The VW diesel scandal is not a US government conspiracy     (autoblog.com)

    Big Shareholder Tells Volkswagen: Come Clean on the Diesel Scandal -- Soon (Fool.com - the big shareholder is the German state of Saxony).
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    ruking1 said:

    The easy way to say that: would you prefer a higher cost per mile driven fuel costs? Or lower?

    Don't forget to plug in the externalities, like health costs. The cheapest is sometimes the most expensive in the long run.

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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    How about some good news?

    Cadillac Won't Back Down From Its Diesel Program (carscoops.com)
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    stever said:

    "I hate seeing this because VW is so important to the automotive industry. The vast majority of employees at VW are good people who put in an honest day's work and produce terrific cars. The same goes for the dealers and suppliers who rely on VW. They should not suffer because of this. But VW's leadership seems incapable of coming clean and confronting this scandal head on."

    The VW diesel scandal is not a US government conspiracy     (autoblog.com)

    Big Shareholder Tells Volkswagen: Come Clean on the Diesel Scandal -- Soon (Fool.com - the big shareholder is the German state of Saxony).

    That is SOOO last September! ;)

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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,711
    We'll be stuck in September until VW gets a plan accepted...
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    texases said:

    We'll be stuck in September until VW gets a plan accepted...

    You might be!? I'm not! (My) The two "affected" vehicles are good to go to 2018! Chances are it'll go to 2020. The other two have zero restrictions ! I'm starting to get those pesky notes on my windshield : do you want to sell your car routine! It's almost like I'm being stalked ! :D

    My guess, the longer VW diesel certification tales, VW will experience higher pent up demand!
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Those notes are probably from some potential plaintiff hoping to take VW to the cleaners. :D
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    stever said:

    Those notes are probably from some potential plaintiff hoping to take VW to the cleaners. :D

    Oh, the kind fantail has described ? :D why am I laughing, they might sue me too? :D
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,711
    This is the "What would it take for YOU to buy a diesel car?" discussion, not the "I'm happy with my diesel car" discussion. Until VW (the largest diesel seller, by far) gets its act together, very few diesels will be sold.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    texases said:

    This is the "What would it take for YOU to buy a diesel car?" discussion, not the "I'm happy with my diesel car" discussion. Until VW (the largest diesel seller, by far) gets its act together, very few diesels will be sold.

    What about potential strong pent up diesel demand is not on topic? Happiness about 4 individual diesels is one anecdotal outcome to those considering a switch to diesels. Again, it is on topic!

    You do know, you can start a new topic ? You can title it: " I Hate VW TDI's, Why Don't You? " :'(
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,711
    edited January 2016
    I don't hate them, I just wish VW would have paid MB for the AdBlue technology and avoided this whole mess.

    US diesel sales were already going to drop because of declining gas prices and improving gasser economy. Add VW's screwup on top, and the long term sales will decline even more, once they get past the pent-up demand. Same goes for the EU, plus the impact of reducing/eliminating the diesel subsidy (lower fuel taxes) will have.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    It's a good thing you don't hate diesels! Spilled & dried up milk, for your second concern! Going forward, VW has already integrated the ad blue system.

    Whether VW diesel sales drop or rise is really not up to me directly. Those guys/girls that it is up to, get $ 60 M in GP's when they screw up! My anecdotal take: The waters are fine @ 3% to 5% diesels! My take is there will be growth, albeit slow.But then, why would one want it fast, especially since it has historically been slow!?
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,711
    Spilled milk, yes, but the mess is still on the kitchen floor, and BOY does it stink!
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