Tires, tires, tires

tpken · November 2001

Gee that's a terrific set of recommendations there, bretfraz. Thanks! My radio is tuned to the local FM talkband here.

You know it's interesting to consider the capabilities and potential of my Bonneville in this manner. I do not have the SLE or SSEi model - just a lowly SE that has had a rear stabilizer bar installed to tighten up the cornering a bit. Since that addition, I have noticed that the Affinities are now the limitation for cornering at speeds that I will call 'assertive' but not 'aggressive'. I do occasionally cruise Maine to PA on biz at 75-85 mph in addition to my 100 mile round trip daily commute and am looking for a long lasting, quiet and smooth riding highway tire that will handle the wet weather travel well and get me through this winter for snow and ice fairly decently.

I'll check out Tirerack and the mfg sites for the tires mentioned above and see if one of them grabs hold of me. Thanks again for the great response.

Ken

rs_petty · November 2001

Recently put BFG Touring TA's on 99 Lumina - pretty close to a Bonny. T- rating so not a performance tire but give a good ride. Frankly, the Lumina chassis is not even up to the BFG ability. I would also look at the Bridgestone Turanza or Firestone Firehawk Touring. Might be that company is looking for customers and offering good deals. Performance tires might be a better choice on the Bonny though. Irregardless, I would find a good dealer that will work with you. I've had it with wholesale clubs.

tpken · November 2001

I appreciate the suggestions

Ken

suvshopper4 · November 2001

bretfraz: Yeah, very nice informative post. I didn't know that Dunlop had discontinued the D60A2 (but I've been out of that segment for a while now). I agree, 'loved' is a good term for them.

Someday I'll need to replace the Bridgestone Dueler H/Ts 215/70x16 on my '01 RAV (currently have 16.5k mi). Already I'm thinking Michelin in general. LTX (I think that is the line), is that the one I should be looking at? My radio tastes run to non-commercial rock/folk/blues.

Thanks for the help.

-ss4

bretfraz · November 2001

You're thinking of the Michelin LTX M/S. Yep, that would be a good choice. A tad more aggressive looking that the OE Bridgestone's but will do the job just fine. Also keep the OE Bridgey on your list. As long as you don't need off-road traction and the weather is reasonable, I like the H/T. I had them on an Infiniti and thought they were very car-like.

If you wanted to go a smidge wider, Michelin offers the new Cross-Terrain in 225/70-16.

suvshopper4 · November 2001

Thanks again.
I forgot to mention that we get occasional snow, but sounds like the Michelin M/S's are fine for that. Negligible off-road service (occasional unmaintained fire roads).

Re the OEM Bridgestones, it is good to hear they are considered decent. I'll keep an eye on their treadwear.

-ss4

jfl · November 2001

I'm considering these in 225/75R15 for a Grand Cherokee: BFG Control T/A M65 or Dunlop Radial Rover A/T.
What are your opinions?
TIA

bretfraz · November 2001

Well, the BFG you mention is a passenger car tire. It'll work on your Jeep but it's not ideal. I'd suggest the BFG Long Trail T/A instead.

The Dunlop is a good choice and would work well for your Jeep.

tpken · November 2001

I had two of the above mentioned T/As installed on the front of my Suburban last Saturday.

Initial reaction is that they are quiet, smooth and reassuring in cornering etc. The Generals on the back will be replaced next year with two more of these T/As. I paid $243 mounted and installed for the pair.

Hope this helps.

Ken

stangelj · November 2001

Question, what is the significance of the white line drawn around the tread towards one sidewall on new tires? Is this to help the guy mounting the tires to ensure he gets them all facing the same way? 2nd question, on a tire with blackwalls on both sides, is there a primary side to face out? I recognize it doesn't really matter except for aesthetics for tires that are not unidirectional. Thanks.

hpulley4 · November 2001

At least for a set of Michelin Rainforce MX4's on my Geo Metro, it seems that the DOT numbers are only on one side and the 'brain surgeons' at my local Chevy GM Goodwrench couldn't figure that out; every one has the DOT #s on the inside of the wheel. This made it challenging to register my tires online!

bretfraz · November 2001

I'm thinking the white line is for the factory Quality Assurance folks to test lateral runout and look for defects or tires out of spec that should not be shipped.

I agree wqith HP on which side out: Put the side that has the DOT specs out so they can be read.

stangelj · November 2001

Makes sense, thanks guys.

jasdmw · December 2001

This is a follow up to my posting #963. I have reluctantly thrown in the towel on the Aquatreads. The dealer has installed a brand new balancer, capable of majic (I guess). However, after having the tires checked for balance and rollout(?), they vibrate the Sienna more and pull to the other side. Could be because the dealer rotated the left side tires. It's a shame because the wet traction of these tires is awesome. But I can't have the highway speed vibration and constant pull. Asked him to get Michelin X Ones. Am impressed by Goodyear, though. Sent an email complaint to the President of the company which went to the local customer service people. They are picking up the charge.

caperosier · December 2001

The OEM Bridgestone Dueler HT's on a 2001 AWD Forester performed dangerously in any kind of snow, slush, ice. This when new.
At 25,000 miles, the treadwear lines appeared; the tire was then useless.
Other consumer and CR testing found the same: this is NOT a tire for most of North American winter weather. Plus: 25,000 mile wear on any non-performance tire is unacceptable. Subaru and Bridgestone should at least warn consumers that their Dueler is not safe for any winter use.
They were replaced with Michelin Symmetry's.

gye · December 2001

Just want to share a nice surprise. Had my 97' Accord 4 tires changed at Costco over the weekend. The new tires are Bridgestone RE930I to replace original Michelin MX4 which have 60,000 miles. The tire I believe not only better than Michelin MX4, but also better than Michelin MXV4 plus in terms of ride comfort and road noise. How do I know it? I also have a 2000 Accord V6-LX that came with a MXV4 plus with 19,000 miles. I drove the car with new tires to the familiar street with pothole and broken pavement, RE930I easily glide it over while MXV4 plus always reacts harshly and brings out the rattles in the dash. Both tire pressure are 30 Psi.

Handling wise, don't see much diffrence. Now I have a 97 Accord rides more like a luxury car than my 2000 V6.

suvshopper4 · December 2001

caperosier: The Car & Driver comparo, White Snow and the Seven Dwarfs, rated the '01 RAV4 pretty highly in the snow. I can't be sure from the photo, but it ~may~ have been wearing the standard AWD tires, Bridgestone H/T Duelers. That is the tire that came with my AWD '01, and I still see them on the '02s on the dealer's lot. It is possible, though, that the C&D RAV had an upgraded tire and wheel package. Too bad they don't say.

I'm not sure about my H/Ts, but bretfraz and juice (on his Forester) seem to think they're decent, and they are pretty knowledgeable posters. At 16.5k miles and little snow (so far), my jury is still out.

sshkurov · December 2001

Hi,

What tire would you recommend for a Jaguar X-Type 3.0 Sport (225/45-17) if you had to choose between Pirelli P Zero and Continental ContiSport Contact.

Thanks for your input!

-SSB

woodyr1 · December 2001

We have had some snow for about a week now, and after repeated cleaning, we have a 'greasy' road surface. I have a 4 wheel drive Nissan Pathfinder with less than 10k miles on the H/T's. I must say that I slid partway through a crosswalk last evening, when I applied the brakes, and the ABS prevented wheel lock. Today, I fishtailed around a corner when in 2 wheel drive. I don't think the H/T's do well in braking and general overall traction on snow covered roads, so am looking to replace.

Check the consumer reviews on tirerack.com

Woody in interior British Columbia, Canada

bretfraz · December 2001

In 1997 I bought an Infiniti QX4 while living in Chicago. It had as the OE tire the Bridgestone Dueler H/T D684 in P245/70-16. The QX4 has Infiniti's All-Mode all wheel drive system which is one of the most sophisticated AWD systems on the market. It's now available on the Nissan Pathfinder but wasn't in '97.

I drove the QX4 with the Bridgestones thru the winter of '97 without a hitch. I experienced very little slippin' and slidin' in AWD mode. Even in 2WD it was pretty solid but needed more care in driving, obviously.

Having said that it always seems Consumer Reports rates Bridgestone poorly in snow traction. "A good choice where winters are mild" I think is the statement they use.

IMO, the smartest thing to do is use your own judgement. There's nothing like a snow tire to provide the ultimate in traction. I believe that Infiniti with a snow-only tire would be almost unstoppable in the winter.

There are some LT tires that perform better in the snow according to CR. Or you could always install a set of Nokian all-season tires knowing that even their basic tire will perform great in snow.

My experiences with the Bridgestone H/T was very good. But your mileage may vary.

woodyr1 · December 2001

I am considering the Nokian WR, a new tire for 2001. It has a severe snow rating, but is classified as a 4 season tire, with a 50,000 mile treadlife warranty. I am unaware how it would perform in winter conditions, as most of the dedicated studless winter tires do not have a treadlife warranty due to the fact that the softer rubber compound wears very fast on hot pavement. Any comments?

skipdog1 · December 2001

Does anyone know anything about Cooper Tires? I had a blow-out, in my '99 Escort Sedan, and the guys at BP put one of these on in replacement. I was going to replace them all soon anyway, and want to know if this is a good tire, or if I should go with something else... Any help is appreciated!

lovable90 · December 2001

Woody: I recently purchased a set of Nokian NRWs. I'm in Minneapolis and we haven't gotten much snow yet this year (frankly, its been barbecue weather here this fall), but they are supposed to be great in the snow. I also love these things in the dry (they're all season tires). The Nokians have evened out the ride in my Forester -- no more bounce, great cornering, nice straight stops, panic stops end up right where you want it to. Word of mouth is the NRWs DO last 50,000 miles. I really like mine.

Skipdog: Cooper Lifeliner Classic IIs used to appear near at the top of Consumer Reports ratings until a few years ago. Other tires now surpass it on handling, but that tire is very good in snow. A lot of the dealers in this area have Classic IIs on their own cars. It's a decent tire;it just depends on what you expect from your tire -- snow traction, wet traction, cornering, etc. It's also reasonably priced.

By the way, I have no qualifications as a tire expert or anything. Its just that a lot of research has gone into my most recent tire search and I thought I'd pass it along. I was also helped a lot by Bret (bretfraz) and Ken (kens).

Noelle

bretfraz · December 2001

OK. let's see what my Cooper spec sheet says - -

Lifeliner Classic II.... 60,000 mile treadwear protection limited warranty..... excellent all season performance and enhanced gripping ability in diverse weather conditions..... A specially formulated tread compound helps provide long, even treadwear and excellent traction... Engineering data, page 12

Alrighty. Lots of size available, from 175/70-13 to 235/75-15. S-rated tire. Comes in whitewall and blackwall versions. Whitewalls are almost all 70 & 75 series tires. Blackwalls are mostly 65 & 70 series with a couple 55 & 60.

So it looks like your standard all-season passenger car radial. Not too fancy but will do the job. Like Noelle said Cooper tires do perform well in adverse weather so that may be a bonus. If you're looking for a good value in a basic tire this one looks fine to me. I say buy three more.

danjaecks · December 2001

I am considering having my Yokohama Geolanders siped to improve their winter performance. Does anyone have any experience with this or comments to make? Does it really help snow/ice traction?Would it make dry road handling more squirmy?
Sounds like a cheap way to improve tire performance, if it works.

Dan

ginto · December 2001

"I believe that Infiniti with a snow-only tire would be almost unstoppable in the winter."

Bretfraz, last winter I had that problem with bald tires on a Dodge Neon!

kcreature · December 2001

What tires should I get for my Forester? I tried to read as many messages I could, but didn't see anything about this. I live in the Seattle area and EVERYONE says to get the Aquatread III's. When I tell them that I do a lot of driving in the mountains (gravel and dirt roads and snow and ice), they become speechless and dumbfounded. I have Yokohamas on now, with only 36000 miles on them. I have also been told that tires wear down quicker here because the pavement is "rougher" to help with slipperiness in the rain, and because people drive with studded tires. I have done the "penny test" and think I should get new tires way before 50,000 miles. Is there anyone from the Pacific Northwest out there that has had luck with any certain brand? Juice, are you out there? You've given me some good advice before on other things.

Thanks in advance.

K

jasdmw · December 2001

This will be my last post on this issue. I had the 3s replaced with Michelin XOnes on my Sienna today. What a difference! I have driven the 3's for about 13000 KM (7800 miles). Thought they were good tires. However, 2 hours on the Michelins and I realize what I was missing! These XOnes are soooo quiet, smooth, corner better, handle in traffic better, do not pull, do not wobble. Fantastic! Anyone considering Goodyear should do yourself a favour and spend the few extra bucks and get Michelin, IMHO. My 4 years of experience with XOnes on my old Voyager tells me they are also good in snow and wet. Makes me think whatever possesed me to go with the Goodyears in the first place.

topsea · December 2001

I live in Seattle and drive about 1,000 miles per week here in the northwest. 'Got over a million miles in the last 20 years here. I can't find a better overall tire than Les Schaub's Toyo Z-800 all season. I'm on about my sixth set and I have been getting at least 100,000 miles on them if I keep my vans that long. Usually I change vans before the tires wear out. They are all season so you can go over all the passes here in your vehicle without chains. As long as there are no snow slides anyway. They are great on our wet pavment here too. I am religious about rotating mine every 5000 miles(It's free at Schaubs). The same day I bought my new Astro at Alley Chev, I drove to Les Schaub and got rid of the factory trash for a new set of Z-800s. No I don't work for the company, they are just great tires.

topsea · December 2001

I sure don't work for the company. It is Les Schwab not Les Schaub.

lovable90 · December 2001

Re the Yoko Geos: They were the OEMs on my Forester S and wore out before 35,000 miles. Every post I have seen on the subject and everyone I've spoken to says they wear out before 35,000 miles. I think Juice may have gotten 40,000 out of his. Anyway, this tire is LOUSY in snow. I would not bother having the Yokos siped; when it gets to the end of its life, just replace it with something with better snow traction.

kcreature: With the number of people that have had trouble with them and the fact that contrary to the way they are advertised, they are not good in snow or ice, I wouldn't drag an Aquatred III behind a U-haul with 30 feet of rope. Which Forester do you have, the L or the S? I think you may have more choices in the L (205/70/15), but there are a few (very few) good all weather choices for the S (215/60/16). Check out Nokian, Cooper Lifeliner Classic II and Lifeliner SLE (new, but getting decent word of mouth), BF Goodrich T/A M80. And, like Topsea says, you might like the Les Schwab version of the Toyo 800.

tdf · December 2001

Is there a difference in these tires other than the name? The treads look similar although I have not seen them side by side. If you look at the NHTSB website, comparable models of these tires are similarly rated. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/UTQG/table_8.htm The X Ones seem to be sold in the tire specialty stores and the X Radial Plus tires are sold at places like Sam's and COSTCO.

If the quality and performance are the same, I don't have a problem if it does not say X One on the side.

Thanks for any thoughts you might have.

Terry

hpulley4 · December 2001

The X Radial Plus 700 treadwear with Durablack sounds exactly the same as the X One Durablacks from that simple table. They are the only 700 (80000mile) treadwear tires on the list and the only ones with Durablack so it looks suspiciously like a house-branded version. I'd get the Durablacks if I were you, as the old brown scuff marks look ugly.

stangelj · December 2001

My understanding from the research I had done is they are the exact same tire. I recently had a set of the X Radial Pluses from Costco installed on my Honda Odyssey. They have been superb on ice and snow and are very quiet on dry pavement. I'm in Calgary Alberta and we've been in a deep freeze for the past couple of weeks.

edwinfong · December 2001

I just replaced my Firestone Affinty tires on a Saturn SL2 with the
Michelin Radial X plus. The Affinty tires lasted about 68K miles and
were OK but the Michilen X Plus are quieter, the Saturn seems to
track and grip the road better, and Sam's Club has an 88,000 mile
treadwear warranty on them. The price was about $87 for the 185/65X15
Mounting, balancing, new stems, free tire rotations and a road hazard
warranty cost another $9.00 a tire. Out the door with tax they were
just over $100 a tire. I really like these tires and I will get them
for my other cars as needed. They are a little more expensive than
some others but I think they're worth it.

tdf · December 2001

I bought the Michelin X Radial Plus tires from Sam's Club today and put about 100 miles on them. They has really quieted down my 1999 Odyssey. The OEM Firestones were junk. Thanks for your responses.

danjaecks · December 2001

I noticed your comment about siping the Yoko's. Have you heard negative things about that?? I have new Geolanders and have read bad reports on their snow/ice traction, so I was interested in siping as a way to improve that aspect of their performance. (Seems wasteful to just replace new tires, and I'm not sure what the best choice would be anyway.)
Thanks for any comments on this,
Dan

suvshopper4 · December 2001

I've seen this term a couple times lately. Maybe it has already been covered here, sorry if this is redundant, but...
... what is 'siping'?

Thanks.

danjaecks · December 2001

Siping is thin slits cut into the tire tread, usually cross ways to the direction of motion. It's named after John Sipes who invented it for giving boat shoes more traction back in the 1920's I think.
I did a search on the web and found mostly references to off-road tires and 4WD'ers who need big tire blocks for mud traction, then add sipes to get wet pavement and snow traction.
The tire dealer that I talked to raves about how it improves traction on ice and snow etc, but I haven't heard from someone unbiased about it.
The tire manufactures put more sipes on their winter tires (e.g. Blizzaks and Arctic Alpins), so I guess it must work.
Anyone with experience with siping on all-season street tires? Tire dealers charge about $10/tire for this.

tboner1965 · December 2001

are factory siped. They provide some pretty insane wet weather grip. And not too bad in the dry either.

Just acquired my 3rd set, for our Mazda MPV. The other two sets are on my 87 LeSabre with some 16" Caddy DeVille pulloffs (from Tirerack.com) and my SVT Contour has a set on the factory wheels. (FWIW, I put a set of 17" O.Z. Racing Superleggeras with Firestone Firehawk SZ50EP's on the SVT Contour, those are some insanely grippy dry/wet summer tires!)

HTH

TB

lovable90 · December 2001

I think I stand corrected, Danjaecks. I wasn't aware that your Yokos were new. At $10 a pop, you might as well try getting them siped, because with those Yokos you sure are gonna slide without it. Although, I have a friend who's going on two snow seasons with those tires and says he's had no problem. One reason I got rid of my Yokos was I was scared to death to use them on snow or ice.

Where were you thinking of having them done? Is having the tires siped by the tire dealer popular in Colorado? I'm in big snow country here in Minnesota and I'm not sure I've heard of them doing that here. But, of course, when it comes to trends (or any new stuff for that matter) we're about two years behind the rest of the country. I did a lot of research locally for my recent tire purchase and nobody suggested that to me, including my mechanic, who'll always tell you how to save money.

bretfraz · December 2001

Great to see it.

Just a little note about the Michelin X-One vs X-Radial Plus discussion:

Everyone is correct; Michelin private-labels the X-One for the warehouse clubs. The tread design might be slightly different but it's the same tire.

One thing to be aware of is if you buy the X-Radial Plus from a warehouse club, that club is the only place you can get warranty service. So if you have a problem you have to take them back to that particular club (any store, of course). If you take the tire to a Michelin dealer, they cannot help you as you have a tire they do not offer. Don't bother trying the old, "it's the same thing as the X-One". That doesn't fly. Michelin Corporate will not support the dealers who try to warranty the X-Radial Plus.

danjaecks · December 2001

The local Discount Tire store does siping here, but I've seen it advertised at other tire dealers as well. I don't know if it's popular, I haven't run into anyone who's had it done, other than tire store employees. The Discount Tire website makes it sound great.

jasdmw · December 2001

When I replaced the Aquatreads on my'01 Sienna, I looked into the X Radial Plus @ Costco. The installer stated they were they same tire, except that one small part of the tread pattern was different. However, when I inquired about the price, I actually had a better quote on XOnes from a reputable and large dealer! So I went with the XOnes. I'd suggest shopping around and employ a bit of hard bargaining.

randyt2 · December 2001

I just had my tires siped at Discount tires (www.tires.com) about a month ago. The Firestone Firehawk GTA02 stock tires on my '01 Focus hydroplaned badly, which is bad if you live here in the northwest. I needed tire rotation anyway and tire rotation was free with the siping, so I had it done.

There seems to be a noticeable added traction in the rain and less hydroplaning. I haven't driven this car in the snow yet.

suvshopper4 · December 2001

How long does siping last? I guess it is a function of how deep into the rubber it goes, and how quickly the rubber wears? Anybody?

caperosier · December 2001

What is Subaru thinking of to OEM tires on AWD cars that are unsafe in snow, on ice, in cold weather slush? We're not talking Texas or California...or even Brooklyn, but areas that get the real stuff, and often. Think about Minn. or Montana, or the Rockies, or Maine. Those Geolanders on the Forester S or Dueler HT's on the L model are universally rated poor in snow.
No disclosures? Not a great marketing methodology here.
And, both those brands get also poor wear: hearing barely 30K for the treadwear indicators to say: "replace."

stangelj · December 2001

jasdmw, how much did you get your X Ones for and what size are they? Thanks.

danjaecks · December 2001

randyt2 - Were there any adverse affects due to the siping?? Like dry road handling or braking?

randyt2 · December 2001

I haven't seen any difference in braking distance good or bad, but I need to mention that I have only 8000 miles on my car, and I had it done near the 6700 mile mark. Also, I haven't had to stop suddenly in the past month or so. (I have ABS so that may be a factor too, don't know).

Before I did it, I read some comments that it would reduce the tire life. but strangely when I was having it done, the salesperson told me that it would increase the life of the tire (still skeptical). Like you, I also felt that it was a waste to replace the OEM tires, which were fine in good weather. If this did not work I was willing to shell out the $$ for a better tire, and if it wears out faster, the same thing applies.

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