Paint and Body Maintenance & Repair

tallman1 · June 2007

I don't think anything is going to prevent your car from getting dirty in the rain. My car is silver so it holds up pretty well but if I drive on the freeway in the rain, the water that washes up from other cars will dirty it up quickly.

I find washing to be therapeutic but there is a product I've used a few times to clean up my car if I'm in a hurry. The company says it won't harm the paint but, as with anything, you have to be careful how you wipe it off. You can read about it here: Speed Shine

bremertong · June 2007

Thanks very much for your reply. I currently use a dry car wash substance available at DWGINT.com it is a good group of products and as good as any I've used so far. There was a product around for a while called Armor All car wash wipes, made by the well known company. I found them practical and easy to use but for some reason the product was withdrawn from the market. They were pre moistened towels that you wiped the car with followed with the dry wash spray. Was a good combination to clean and shine the car. It seems to me that a pre moistened towel that would clean and shine would be the best and most practical method of doing a quick clean. Of course a heavily soiled car would need a hosing down or hand wash first. It may be that that the clear coats they use should be more durable so you could the dirt off more easily.

okko1 · July 2007

i have a black car and a pewter car these two are the difference between night and day. the black gets dirty in the driveway in about three hours. so i use eagle one wipe and shine i also use eagle one wax as u dry. the wipe and shine helps to prevent wax build up on paint and the wax as dry applies a very thin layer of wax and realy does have a nice finished look. thought i chamois first.

aceguy1 · July 2007

I just purchased a new chrysler sebring sedan(new).The paint color is silver.

The hood has damage caused by the hood being pulled down with the hood rod stll attached.The dealer wants to replace the hood.

My question is:will there be a problem with color matching.The car is as I said new with less the 100 miles.

Thanks

Mr_Shiftright · July 2007

No a competent shop should be able to do a perfect color match on a new car. The "problem" might be down the road, if the hood paint was not laid down correctly---in other words, it might look great but not not have the durability of factory paint---on the other hand, a really good paint shop can match factory color and durability.

So the real answer is: "it depends on who is doing it, but yes it can be done right".

moonlily · July 2007

We recently had an alignment and put new tires on our 2005 Volkswagen Passat GLX. Since then we've had lots of rain and we think it's coming in from the bottom of the car. We dried it out once, but now it's back. It's fresh water on the passenger front carpet and mat. Any clues as to why this is happening? Our warranty is expired (sigh).

okko1 · July 2007

do you have a sun roof. also sound like maybe window,windshield, or door seal. i had problems with a grandprix and sold the car for the same reason. i have a cobalt that started that mess and it was just an adjustment that corrected it

moonlily · July 2007

Yes, there's a sunroof. But there are no water marks anywhere in the car (like from the base of the windows, the seats, the door mouldings, etc). The only place that has been wet is the carpet on the passenger's side front. (Even checked to see if a water-bottle rolled under the seat.) It's a good bit of water, fresh though. So I know it's not the evaporator core, etc, leaking into the car. Any other ideas?

bigfur · July 2007

Have you been running the A/C alot lately? Sounds a bit like something i have heard of when the condensation backup in a box on the floor in front of the passenger side of the car. Someone help me out here. I cant think of how to describe it clearly.

aallred · July 2007

Look first dont by the BASF is better than all other paint on the market. This guy more than likely has a Macaw on his PJ's. He will get that. He is right the better the paint you buy the longer it will last. Most cheep paint shops like Macco use a cheep product that is a single stage product. This is to say it is color and clear in one. That cheep single stage is going to keep it's gloss for 1 year or more.
Then you have basecoat/clearcoat paint systems that will last much longer. The primer that is under it is very important. You could do all kind of testing but the OEM have done that for you. Go on the web and look up GM 4901 any paint you find on GM 4901 has been tested and found to be good enough for GM to use on there cars to repair them under warranty . So if it is made by Dupont,BASF,Sherwin-Williams or PPG. It will last longer than your car. I have been through the testing for GM4901 with a major paint company and if you can pass that you have a good product.
Now lets get some one to paint it. You could take a class at your local CC and paint it yourself with some help from the teacher. Most painter suppliers can point you to a painter that moonlites or a small shop that will do a good job for the MONEY.

benztuner · July 2007

im just wondering if you think BASF products are not good products? and since you brought it up, can you honestly say Glasurit isnt a good paint? I understand what you're trying to say and you're right, but the you shouldnt tell someone that Dupont is the same quality as other paints like Glasurit. I dont think someone driving a "cheaper" car should pay the money for Glasurit or whatever because the material bill will be more than the car, but if you have a car that you're wanting to keep for years then it would be a good investment. Ill give you, the fact that Glasurit is expensive paint, but you get what you pay for. And the second problem after you get the paint is finding a good painter, because no matter how good the material if the painter sucks its not going to look good. The booth should be a down draft, bake oven booth. Anyways, i just thought id put my two cents in. Bottom line you get what you pay for, and if you're looking for a cheaper job and arent too worried about the overall look and longevity of the paint then you should look at something like RM, Spies Heckler, etc. There are a lot of companies available you just need to find what fits your needs for this car.
By the way ask about a warranty. As a National Warranty Center for BASF we give a lifetime warranty on the paint, but we also use Glasurit from top to bottom, starting with primer, base, clear everything. Our paint jobs are not cheap but when we're done it looks brand new and its been done the way it is supposed to be done, which is a rarity in these times. Goodluck.

aallred · July 2007

I guess you are a painter. Well let me enlighten you. First I have worked with some of the chemist from BASF, Valspar, Sherwin-Williams and more. I have traveled all over the world training painters and solving problems. I have sprayed Glasso when it was brought in to the US by PPG did you know that. So let me let you in on some facts. All that Glasurit white pigment in your paint and primers you spray has Dupont TIO2 (White pigment)in it. Basf makes a lot of pigments like the Dye's in House of Kolor Kandy which buy the way they moved some of the pigment manuf to China. I have set at the same table with all the paint company's at one of the big 3 and looked at the testing done for plastic repair. All paint company's buy raw material from each other including Glasurit. So why is Glasurit more money than Dupont? It's not much more but then it is not shipped from Germany. Buy the way I have two Macaws and I have every one of the cloth Glasurit calenders made. Now I will bust your bubble your 55 line is made over the Diamont formula. I remember when it came out the German's almost died when BASF changed the base coat to the French Diamont and called it 55 line. I have been in this industry for over 25 years and yes I was a painter and I shot Glasso when 923-54 was the hot clearcoat.So don't be so closed minded. If you want to know one of the best products in the states for your money is a new Dutch paint the color match blows 55 line away and the 8-104 clear is great in a bake booth. The 8-145 primer sands better than anything out and holds up as well as anyone and no I don't work for them. Take a good look at your life time warranty it is rely only 7 or 10 years I don't remember which. Gasurit is a very good paint but in the end it's just ground up pigment, resin and solvent. Good luck and keep blending. Painter rule!

Mr_Shiftright · July 2007

Since you guys are so knowledgable, would you mind explaining to the general audience out there how these "cheapo" paint franchises manage to charge so little to paint a car? Where are they cutting corners in their materials exactly? What makes MAACO paint/primers or MIRACLE paint/primers inferior? I know they MUST be, to charge $600--$1500 to paint an entire car (I've paid more just for the materials to paint a car) but I really don't know the particulars. Thanks!

aallred · July 2007

Sure on problem. First why is the paint from cheapo paint shops not as good as what most body shops use.
1. It is old technology and so the raw material is cheap and easy to get. The cheep paint jobs from Macco use a product from Sherwin-Williams that is a synthetic enamel. This paint came along in the 40's it is very shine when it rolls out the door. The invent of UV blocker for synthetics just came along a few years ago for the house paint market. And none of the auto synthetics use them becuse of cost. So the gloss of this paint is good for 6 months to a year. You can help it by waxing the car.
2. The primer is in the same ballpark. But with primer we look at how it will protect the car from moisture and they don't do a very good job. You would test this in many test but the best one would be a salt spray test. The panel would be painted and dried then a mark would be scribed to the sub-straight and placed in the salt spray cabinet. Imagine a box with a humidifier filled with salt water. 250 hr would be the first time you would look at it and you would be looking at how far the rust had creeped back from the scribed line. Most of the cheep single component primers would be looking pretty bad buy now. Primers the auto body shops would use must go 500 hr with less than 2 mm of creep.

How do they paint a car so cheep?
1. Buying power!
2. They use the cheapest sanding paper,masking paper and labor they can find.
3. Up sell, You go in for the $299 paint job and they up sell to better paint, body work, better prep and so on.

One of the biggest problems in the collision industry today is the insurance company is cutting the pay to the shops so the shops use a brand name basecoatfor color match and a after market primer and clearcoat that has not been tested and the clear is usually low on UV absorbers The primers are chosen for fast dry and no thought to flex-abilty or corrosion resistance. The other guy is correct you should use the same product line from primer up. The chemists built them to work with each other.

Hope that answered your questions.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2007

yes that was very interesting indeed. I figured the paint and materials were inferior but I didn't know why exactly.

magchase · July 2007

For our newer 2007 4Runner Sport, we weren't going to pay the dealership $500.00 to "wax" the vehicle. We purchased the Simoniz System 5 through e-Bay and I applied it myself and we really like the results.
Question: Can anyone recommend another product that can be used over the Simoniz product to enhance and preserve the finish, something that will not be detrimental to the Simoniz product?
Thanks!

oldfarmer50 · August 2007

...but I'll ask it here. My son bought an old beater car that we're fixing up to make it drivable. One problem I'm not sure how to go about is fixing a rip in the headliner.

The rip is about a foot long over the back seat. It hangs down a few inches from the ceiling. It doesn't cause any driving or vision problems but I'm sure when his friends get back there they will start pulling at it until the whole thing is gone.

How would you go about fixing this so it doesn't hang down. I've thought of using glue or staples. It doesn't have to be pretty just practical.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2007

I suppose you could use double stick tape--it won't look good (headliners are actually "hung" like curtains on little rods) but that'll work. You'll see the tear of course.

oldfarmer50 · August 2007

"...You'll see the tear of course..."

LOL If you could see this car (1988 Plymouth) you would know that it doesn't matter how it looks. :lemon: That's a good idea about the tape. Thanks.

kiawah · August 2007

They make an aerosol spray, which you can usually buy at craft stores (or maybe even big box hardware), which is a spray adhesive. You spray it on the surfaces, allow to air drive, then press together.

It would certainly hold it as it's really sticky, but it is very unforgiving if you don't get it positioned correctly. You only get one shot at sticking it together.

I'm not sure how any of these solutions would work in the high temperature that you would expect in a closed car sitting out in the sun. I would think it's better than a double stick tape, though.

vickisue · August 2007

Hello! I just puchased a black suzuki aerio for my 17 year old(whose idea of cleaning the car is to windex it and its good to go!)I don't beieve this car has ever see the inside of a garage,as the paint is dull,and even the headlight lamp covers are abit oxidized.Is there anything I could at least try to see if it's possible to spruce up this faded,dull black color? I am reluctant to spend $150. to get it detailed,as manitaining it is low on my teenager's list of priorities!Any inexpensive,easy suggessions would be welcome!

naatz1 · August 2007

Mr_Shiftright · August 2007

Given that the standards to be reached are not that high, I'd buy an over the counter cleaner for starters and see if there are any results when you do a small spot. If the clear-coat is shot, it's not going to shine up no matter what you do. But if the cleaner works, then do a quicky all over the car and then wax it. It won't look great however, since it is black--the least forgiving color.

gizmo2 · September 2007

I recently got several deep scratches on my car, looks like some of the scratches went to the paint. The color is dark metallic gray. Is this fixable or would it need to be repainated? It's on a Lexus, I'm not sure if this makes a difference paint wise.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

bigfur · September 2007

First thing id do is bring it to a pro detailer and see if he can buff them out, if not the only option left is to repaint it.

autowrite · September 2007

Last weekend when parking on the street in Monteal, while vising from Ontario someone but an 18" key scratch on my Honda Odyssey sliding door. It's threw the paint but not the primer. My dealer who has a body shop suggested I just wax the area. An independent body shop suggest that they repaint the door, blending the paint. It would cost $600 less an insurance of $300 deductible.

What do Edmunds readers think of this procedure?

Mr_Shiftright · September 2007

Depends on the skill of the body shop really. Seems like a fair enough price if done correctly. Blending can be tricky. Waxing just temporarily fills in the gouge but it's like cosmetics...the wrinkle will still be there in the morning

kiawah · September 2007

How old is the car, how many miles on it, and what other body damage or door dings do you have. Depending upon what the car is worth as a trade in, would help determine what how much you want to invest in fixing it back up.

You could also buy a little bottle of matching paint from the dealer, and fill in the scratch which would cover the primer color. Kind of like putting on nail polish. It's better than doing nothing and waxing it, but obviously not as good as repairing it completely.

benztuner · September 2007

i think it is kinda funny the dealership didnt want to fix it, usually they want to fix things that really dont need to be fixed. anyways, its a simple matter of money, if you turn it in on insurance, will your insurance go up? if so will it be more than $300 total? if it is more than $300 then just pay to have it repaired by a credible shop. It can be hard for some people to come up with money like that on the fly but if you're able to, i think your best bet is to have it repaired by a good shop and you pay out of pocket. who knows if you tell the shop the deal they might be able or willing to work with you; i know we will to some extent. And if it isnt that big of a deal and you dont think its worth $600 or whatever its going to cost to fix it then just drive it and keep telling yourself that it'll happen again so there's no sense in fixing it now. I would suggest that you make sure your insurance rates wont go up if you turn it in, and if they do I would try to pay for it yourself. If it is to the paint, if it is deep, and you are going to wait a little while before having it repaired you might want to get some touch up paint from the dealer and touch up the area, that'll make it look the same color of the car and slow down and rusting that might take place. Good luck.

bigfur · September 2007

Being a former auto body repairman i say repaint the door for the simple fact you wont have to worry about something getting thru the primer and rusting out your car. Any decent painter can blend paint granted a red or black car is more difficult then a white car, but as i say any good painter can blend without being obvious. Ask around to people in the area if they know a good painter and go from there.

silverghost · September 2007

Had a little unexpected contact with another car Friday in my black '06 Nissan Pathfinder. :sick: The ONLY damage appears to be a crushed corner of the front bumper, bad enough that it'll have to be replaced.

Can anyone recommend a very good body shop on the west side of Houston? I've read some good things about Katy Coach Works / European Legacy Motors on Blalock and will probably get an estimate from them.

joe155 · October 2007

How do I explain to a young collegue with whom I work with why NOT to write ANYTHING through the dirt on a new black Cadillac before I end up in jail for taking matters into my own hands? (yes, he really did it)

benztuner · October 2007

thats just not good. just tell him that when there is dirt on the car, which is practically all the time, and you run your finger across the dirt with pressure the dirt sticks to your finger. That same dirt then is drug across the clear which scratches it, and thats not good esp on black. Now probably its not that big of a deal, esp if the car is new and in good condition, but its the thought process that makes this a problem. If he doesnt think that is wrong, or is a problem while you're standing there then what has he done that he thinks is wrong or bad when you're not standing there. Next thing you know he'll be trying to get a smudge off by scratching it with his finger nails. I think the best way for you to go about it is to say thats not right, explain why it isnt good for the car, then explain he might be responsible for having those places buffed if the customer who buys the car notices them and wants them out.
I work in the auto collision business and i must say the prospect of young, intelligent, body men who do good work is dim. Too many times I get people coming up to me saying, "this guy does great work, he's the best ive ever seen", hire the guy and he's gone within a week, to find someone who does work to my standards, which are leaps and bounds over industry standards, is almost not possible. These kids come out of these tech schools, who have been misleading these kids all the time they're there - telling them when you graduate you'll be a body man and be able to work on the line, and they have a tiny bit of knowledge in a couple area but for the most part they wouldve been better to just go to a good shop and watch someone who knows what they're doing. And dont even get me started about high-end cars, these kids cant spell aluminum. Ahh, sorry about that, so I hope I helped you out.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2007

I call that the "Self-Esteem Syndrome". It took my friends three years to find a qualified mechanic for their Porsche/Audi shop. Many come, but few are chosen. You simply can't trust a $15,000 engine to a careless person.

frankdlp · October 2007

Where can I get replacement seats for my '95 T-Bird, the back does not go upright anymore and the plastic frame that the seat controls are in is broken off. I like the car and plan to keep it for awhile. I think I'd like stock seats, I've looked at racing seats and they don't look quite right. This car is metal flake black with black 20"rims and dark tinted windows. :shades:
Frank

autowrite · October 2007

Follow up to Sept 21st #844 Honda

I got 1 quote on fixing the scratch from an independent autobody place, and 1 from a Ford dealer-body shop (I used to deal with many years ago) and pushed my Honda dealer-bodyshop for a quote. They all will sand and blend paint to fix scratch. You will not see it when completed. The independent & Ford will each change $475 (no insurance papers) and the dealer wanted $1,500. I decided to go to the independent who has been in the business since 1978. It goes in on Oct 31st and will take 24 hours.

dtsgirl · October 2007

I just got a new black 2008 Cadillac DTS. It only had 6 miles on it when we drove off the lot. I love the car but when we got home, we noticed circular scratches all over the car. I am taking it into the dealer this week for a complete detail and to get a clear sealer coat sprayed on. I really want all the surface scratches removed before they put on the sealer coat, but I am not sure if I am asking too much. Is it normal on a black car to have alot of surface scratches? I have only had very light colored cars (pearl white, etc.) in the past. I would deeply appreciate any help any of you can give me. Thank you.

kiawah · October 2007

Dark colored cars show everything (dust, dirt, wash/wax swirls, etc). They look great when they are washed and detailed, but too high maintenance for my liking. Black is the worst.

I've had a couple dark cars years ago, will never have another.

tallman1 · October 2007

They should be able to remove surface swirl marks with a light polish at the very least.

ny540i6 · October 2007

Different strokes....

I absolutely love my black car - don't wash it more than I did the grey, blue etc... Of course, my cars usually look dirty - I drive too many miles between washes (for example, Thursday was a 600 mile day, Friday was around 700)

Thing is, when it is clean, it's awesome.

joe155 · October 2007

My family had a Buick dealership for 77 years in Pittsburgh. I just picked up an 07 black DTS myself (my grandfather probaly just rolled in his grave) and had a similar issue. Some kid that I work with thought it would be funny to write an explitive on the trunk lid of my new car. He did not realize that the dirt between his finger and the paint of the car scatches the car. I took it to a car wash and asked the guy to buff it out, which he did. It cost me $15. The circular scratched you see on your new DTS could be the result of running it through an automated car wash, which is a very bad idea for anyone with a nice black car. It could have also been human error at the dealership by someone who washed the car and dryed it with course towel or shammy. Those scratches, however, are only in the clear coat and can be buffed out --- like in my case. A good buff and polish (by an individual who knows what they are doing) should take care of it without having to have a new coat of clear sprayed on the car.
However, as far as being concerned about asking too much, you have to ask these guys for exactly what you want and what you expect otherwise they WILL take advantage of you and/or just do the bare minimum while giving you some BS explanation like "that's the way the car came from the GM factory". At the very least, you should insist that they buff and wax the car by someone who knows what they are doing. You might as well ask about a new clear coat simply because it never hurts to ask, despite that fact my personal opinion is that the buff and wax SHOULD do it. Lastly, due to the fact that you just bought a brand new Cadillac DTS $$$ from a dealership instead of an 07 from an auction, which I did and leaving me with less leverage at dealerships">, they should really be more than happy to do what ever it takes to make your paint look like glass. My family was not in the car business from 1919 to 1996 for nothing.

dtsgirl · October 2007

Thank you so much for your knowledgeable advice. I am taking it in tomorrow and I will be VERY clear on what I want. It's our first brand new car so we are novices. But boy, what a car! We got the Performance Package and it's loaded. Just love it!

ebbdude · October 2007

Looking to buy a 2008 Lexus RX and wondering the price paid for clear coat paint protection and some type of interior protection (old scotchguard type) from a dealer?

Would I be better off going to some auto body (detailer) place to get it done?

ny540i6 · October 2007

Short answer: Go elsewhere.

Here's the thing - most dealers see this as just another profit center. If the work is done in house, the quality is not especially high, since this is not the primary area of expertise. If the work is franchised out ( in most cases it is) then the dealer adds a markup to whatever cost the shop that actually provides the service charges.

Bottom line is that you avoid that by going directly to the shop of your choice.

A different question is what I believe that the value of these services are...

sleekdriver1 · October 2007

Good advice. I generally avoid the dealer for most things.

bellasmom1 · October 2007

Im desperate for help!
Just bought a brand new blacdk Hyundai Santa Fe 2007 about 1 month ago. After washing it 1 week into ownership-I saw deep scratches and little dents in hood as well as deep swirls in the paint that had obviously been hidden by a heavy wax job. Went to dealer (who just happened to change ownership during the short time since I bought the car) and they said they didnt have to help me. But I had spoken to a lawyer and I had a quote from repair place that had been highly recommended-they said the hood would have to be repaired and repainted. They seemed very above board. Dealer happens to contract work with this shop so they reluctantly agreed to have work done. Picked up car a few days ago-was cloudy and lots of rain and dust before first bright sunny day yesterday. To my disgust, in the sun I noticed more swirls all over hood, a large scratch, and in my garage last night it was evident that the black paint on the hood does not match the black on the rest of the car. Hood looks terrible, hazy. Im so upset and frustrated. what can i do now? What recourse do I have. Help, please!!

ny540i6 · October 2007

Take it back. The work should be warranted. Have it inspected and estimated by two reputable independent shops. Take pictures before you hand it over again.

aallred · October 2007

I would say that the shop has that repaired the car was using a clear that hazed over after you picked it up.
You said it was raining when you picked it up. If the clear was not fully cured the water would make the clear dry on the top and hold the solvent under the top of the surface making the color look grayer under your flourecent light. Many shops that do car lot work use cheap clears. Car lots don't pay very good. You get what you pay for and the lot didn't pay him much to paint you car. I would take it to a good shop and get an estament. Then take it to the dealer and tell them you want that amount. Then have your new car fixed buy a good shop. If they won't pay take them to small clams court. Take the good body shop as a witness. You could also contact Hyunday regional manager and talk to him the car should be under a Hyunday warranty.

bellasmom1 · November 2007

Got my brand new black 2007 Santa Fe back after the hood was repainted for the SECOND time (was damaged at the dealership) and it has heavy swirls and lines!! How can this be with a brand new paint job?? I dont understand. Is this acceptable? How do I know if this is under or on the clear coat?

aallred · November 2007

The shop has done a bad job of buffing out the clearcoat. Take it back and have them re-buff it.
If your done messing with them it my be worth taking it to a good detail shop and having them buff the hood.

They have used 1000 or 1200 grit sand paper and have then used a cheap buffing system. More than likely is they just did a bad job of getting the sanding scratches out.
Take it back!!!!

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