Are you ok? Your logic about sending our wealth overseas worries me. Yes, my tires are probably made from rubber from another country. BUT, the labor to manuafacture them is American labor. I choose to buy as much American products and services as I choose and you put me down?? Many of my friends/family are starting to feel the same way. We have lost over 30Million jobs to overseas never to be seen again. These jobs have been replaced by low wage, no benefit service jobs like Target or Walmart. I will continue to buy American and keep Americans employed whenever I can. It is obvious to me you have never seen a friend or family member laid off because of outsourcing for cheaper labor. We are in trouble here in the U.S. we have become a debtor nation to other nations. I WILL NOT send my wealth overseas anylonger period.
over again until I am blue in the face.. Many feel buy American is GM/Ford or Dodge.. This is old thinking. I would buy Toyota or Nissan or Honda but it will be made here in the U.S. Vote with your dollar demand American products and services. Companies understand one thing only, money.
The same for CRV (I believe, it is in Ohio, or Toyota in Kentucky).
Not to fuel the fire that Steve is trying to snuff but, if I'm not mistaken all CR-V's are built in either Japan or England. I think it's the only Honda like that right?
The CR-Vs we see here in North America are built in Sayama, Japan or Swindon, England. Honda also has a plant building them in the far east, but those units are not shipped here.
At this point in time, most (about 90%) of Honda vehicles sold in the US are built in North America (US and Canada). This includes the Accord, most Civics, Odyssey, Pilot, Acura TL, Acura MDX, Element, and the upcoming SUT. The exceptions include niche vehicles and slow sellers like the Insight, S2000, hybrid Civic, Civic Si, Acura RL and Acura TSX.
The NHTSA publishes only a brief of each TSB on their website. I believe you can pay them for the full text. Last I checked that was true for all manufacturers.
For Honda, NHTSA doesn't have ALL of them. You need to contact Honda and Honda can only fax it to dealer. I am not sure what is the position of independent mechanics. This was what happened with my X 99 Accord.
Once again varmint.. Honda does hold back information to conxumers... proven.. Take a look a www.alldata.com and you will see Honda is the only manufacturer that will not release information to the public.. Hmmmm... wonder why??
This is a big factor for some consumers like me. IF information is not widely available, I don't even consider buying that vehicle. I drive G4 Taurus. I had sensor related problem and some other thing I screwed up; all of them were resolved by me with the help of Taurus specific discussion forums. People were posting TSB with full body in those forums to help each other. So, this is another reason for to consider Ford/Dodge/GM or any brand that you can get wide support.
snowman: " So, this is another reason for to consider Ford/Dodge/GM or any brand that you can get wide support. " That's right! And Ford/Dodge/GM also have more coffee cup holders... :-)
Have you ever thought about why the TSBs are so widely available for the domestics and why people are willing to post them to help others?
Because all of the repairs for a make/vehicle are easy to find on the internet seems like a convoluted reason to purchase a specific make of vehicle. I'd rather buy the vehicle that has a proven record of less problems. But that's just me.
Snowman - Did you, or did you not get the TSB you were looking for?
I don't think the question is whether or not the information is available (I've read just about every TSB there is for the CR-V at one time or another). They are out there. The question is whether or not those documents are available through the means with which you are familiar.
And I think I've misunderstood your concern. Are you concerned that the TSBs listed on the NHTSA site are only summaries and not the full text? Or are you concerned that the NHTSA does not have a complete listing?
It's pretty clear that the NHTSA provides more information (for a price). That is the point I was addressing.
"Please note that documents, which are summarized on database searches, may be ordered from NHTSA Technical Information Services. Fees are involved in providing these documents." - NHTSA
Scape2 - I think you've been corrected on the absence of TSBs from Alldata about 150 times in this forum. Honda is not the only one. Are you capable of learning? Or are you hoping that we'll get tired of correcting you and you might fool someone into thinking you know something?
Average American car buyer would not be impressed on how many TSB's were issued and/or how easy to find them. But they are really impressed by the past/current/predicted Honda's reliability records. That's why they are buying Honda. Detractors/competitors, who want to hurt Honda fame/sales, need to trumpet CR-V fires as much as they can. This could help to scare people off and hurt Honda. Looks like that's exactly what they are doing now. Savvy people always see hidden values (not so hidden in this case) and enjoy owning Honda even after fire scare.
I agree with Steve: German and British cars reliability are down. French are even worse. Hey, how about CR-V made in England? The wag on French TV cracked a "politically incorrect" joke : Q: Why German cars are better than French? A: Because German cars are made by Turks, while French cars are made by arabs. BTW, who are making American cars???? :-)
German reliability seems to be up if you consider Dodge to be a German company.
Cars are so much better now than they were in the 60's - why people want to cruise in classics beats me. I guess breaking down in a 65 Mustang is a good way to meet people.
A few weeks ago I posted an article that said despite the gains domestics have made in terms of quality there still is a lack of confidence in them. This seems exactly opposite of what Steve is saying. I agree with the article (sorry Steve).
As for the "proof". Varmint mentioned several of the sources. The CR-V has a better reliability record than the Escape. That is a fact. Dispute it all you want.
I wonder, how do you determine Hondas have lees problems than any other make? Oh! please don't use CR numbers, they are full of cr@#$.
I prefer a vehicle that can be fixed by any mechanic in anywhere. I prefer a vehicle that can be only fixed by a dealer. That is your choice, I respect that...
I didn't get the TSB, dealer got it. I wasn't worried that much since my Accord was under warranty.
"Are you concerned that the TSBs listed on the NHTSA site are only summaries and not the full text? Or are you concerned that the NHTSA does not have a complete listing?"
I am not concern at all, I don't drive Honda anymore. But just for the record, yes to both...
I don't think that avarage American car buyer knows what a TSB is. I may be agree on the past part but current and future part I think that is a big BS. I guess, you don't really read Accord and Odyssey forums.
"Proven record" How so? If Honda is not releasing all its TSB info? How is it a Proven record? How is JD powers/Consumer reports ect getting its data? Honda hides information. With the internet and chat rooms like this they can't stop the spread of information. Look at the fire issues with the CRV.. a nightmare for you drive along with Honda.
Corrected how so?? Its pops up plain as day right in front of your face! Honda does not supply TSB information to Alldata.com, WHY? No, all the TSB's for Honda are not on the NHSTA site varmit for the 150th time. You keep forgetting I have a friend who manages a dealership and he showed me TSB's for CRV that are NOT on the NHSTA site. Why won't Honda list and inform consumers??
How do we know what Honda's "record" truely is? They hide information??. CRV fires are real. Get out on the net, visit other chat rooms. Honda and folks like yourself are trying your best to sweep it under the rug and hope it just goes away. I am savvy, I learned you don't have to pay the Honda premium price to get reliability and quality. I was told over and over again my Fords were going to break down, blah, blah.. I won't fall for the Honda garbarge again.
LOL!@ I have heard this over and over again. It just amazes me how the CRV can be ranked reliable at all with all of its recalls@! and now engine fires! Well, my unreliable Escape has had not one problem after 47,000 miles. My Escape has towed watercraft, traversed many logging/access roads along with being up to the mountains countless times for skiing. Yep, unreliable the Escape sure is NOT. This is once again Honda folks propaganda.
The CR-V has data to back up the claims. I've never seen anything, nil, nada, zero to suggest that the Escape can match the quality or long-term reliability of the CR-V.
Tell you what. Find anything other than a personal anecdote citing the Escape as more reliable than the CR-V. We can trade anecdotes all day long... My CR-V just passed 100,000 miles with no mechanical failures (aside from maintenance & inflicted damage). Based on what I've read, no Escape owner can make a claim like that.
But that sort of thing does nothing for the discussion. I don't claim that my experience is what every buyer will enjoy. So the data we get from researchers is the best we have. If you don't like CR, try JD Powers. If you don't like JD Powers, try Strategic Vision. If you don't like the short term quality reports, try the long term studies. All of them rank the CR-V higher.
"My CRV just passed 100K miles". No Escape owner can make that claim?? Are you kidding? Escape has only been out since 01. There are plenty of Escape/Trib owners out on the net with over 50,000 trouble free miles. One person I ran into had 85,000 on his 01 and it was running fine. Granted, not 100K. Give it another 3-4 years and they will pop up. Once again, you make a typical Honda fanatic generalization and assumption that no Ford Escape/Tribute will make it to 100k with no problems. It is this type of garbage talk that gets me going. I had owned a 98 Ford Ranger and heard the same thing from the Toyota Tacoma crowd. My Ranger made to about 90K with not one problem.. My Escape now has 47K and no problems, runs great.
Scape, do you actually know a single Escape owner who has driven 100,000 miles with no repairs?
I don't. And that's all I said. Based on my readings, I am not aware of a single Escape owner who can make that claim. I never claimed it was impossible for it to happen.
As for mileage, I disagree. I know of two CR-V owners with 2002 models that have 100,000+ miles on their vehicles already.
And thanks for missing the point. I only mentioned my own milestone to point out that these anecdotes don't mean squat. Try reading the posts one of these days.
Do you actually go to Escape forums and read what they experience to make these comments about Escape? If you google it, you'll find their forum and you can see what is going on with Escape.
I don't see real Escape enthusiastics in Edmunds.com. They have their own forum(s) to discuss their things. If you pay attention, some make model problems and solution boards are dead in Edmunds. Why? B/C owners have their own forums. But Honda side is going full blast.
I don't think that passing 100K limit without any problem is a tough thing in these days. It actually depends on you definition of problem. Any decent make model can achieve that goal.
<iAs for the "proof". Varmint mentioned several of the sources. The CR-V has a better reliability record than the Escape. That is a fact. Dispute it all you want.
Show me how any of the info from those sources is fact.
The only fact about them is, as varmint said, they are all we got. Manufacturers don't give us the facts and they are the only one's who can. Period.
We're all in the same boat when it comes to buying a vehicle. You take a chance.
Missing the point?? Anyone who reads this will easily see you were trying to make the point the CRV's are plainly more "reliable" than an Escape. Wrong!, Wrong, Wrong. Visit the MSN site and go to thier auto section. Look under reliability ratings for an 01 Escape and an 01 CRV. The Escape is NOT any more unreliable than a CRV. Yes, read the facts man. The Escape rates neck and neck with the CRV. Now, I know your going to only believe the reports that favor Honda. But your loosing steam here varmit. Fact is you spread and beat the same old Honda drum of.. If it doesn't have a silver "H" on the hood it isn't going to last. Old, very old drum. See, people like myself ventured away from Honda. I have learned you don't have to pay the premium price for quality and reliabiltiy. As time goes on more and more people will also learn this. Then what for Honda? what will they have that other car makers don't?
That is the very first time I've seen the Escape ranked as high as the CR-V.
On the other hand...
Consumer Reports currently ranks the CR-V about 65% above the industry average. The Escape is ranked at about negative 5%. This is a change from previous years where the CR-V was ranked about 40% in the positive and the Escape was ranked at negative 40%.
JD Powers lists the CR-V as the Most Dependable (long term) Small SUV for the 2004 awards. The Escape has not yet made that list.
Interestingly, the CR-V did not win the IQS (short term) in 2004 because that award was taken by the Honda Element. The CR-V did, however, win it in 2003 (the old design also won in 2000 and 2001). Again, the Escape has not yet won this award.
The CR-V did not win the recent Most Appealing award because the Element took it for 2003. The CR-V was the winner in 2002. Same story for the Escape... no award, yet. It's true that the APEAL award is not strictly a reliability award. However, reliability and quality are two key components in the study.
And those are just the individual ratings. When it comes to comparing companies based on the performance of their entire fleet, Honda repeatedly bests Ford in reliability and quality.
There are also other awards, like SV's Total Quality Award, which the CR-V won in 2002 and placed second in 2003. The Escape has not yet made the top three in their rankings. But, despite the name, this is another award that mixes customer satisfaction with reliability/quality.
The same is true in other countries.
The CAA (a Canadian org) ranks the CR-V among their top 10 vehicles for low frequency and cost of repairs combined with overall satisfaction and likelihood of buying another.
Ditto for the UK publication WHAT? (that's the name of the magazine) which does a similar comparison in the UK markets.
The truth of the matter shows that the Escape has come a long way in recent years. Ford appears to have worked out the bugs and the vehicle is even with the industry average. I am no longer afraid to recommend it to people. But there's no doubt that the CR-V is just plain better when it comes to reliability, dependability, and quality. The evidence is pretty much overwhelming.
According to these awards, reliablity ranks etc, people should buy Honda CRV, right? And if it is sooo good then Honda sould have substantial market share in small SUV market, right? As a consumer, tell me why I should buy CRV... Just because some magazines says Honda makes good and dependable cars... Well, my Taurus's been dependable too, only power steering pump replaced @ 26K miles. And I didn't pay arm and leg to get it... As a consumer, now should I accept what liberal media tells me (any intelligent person can figure out that they get paid by those award winning car manufacturers) and buy that recommended vehicle or should I listen my own voice and experience?
We had a Dodge Neon (2000) that I just recently sold to buy some other vehicle, despite what those magazines tell you, that vehicle never caused any problem for us. I have nothing but good experience with cars from Ford and Dodge. I never owned GM but I know that they make very reliable and smooth transmissions... I owned Accords and one civic as well. They didn't caused any issue too...
You're over-generalizing. Reliability is merely one reason why the CR-V is a good choice for the average buyer. Of course, there are other factors in choosing a car.
Honda does have good marketshare in small SUVs (the most if you count CR-V and Element). I'm not clear on why you'd bring this up.
And you need to do some reading before making knee-jerk accusations about those sources.
BTW, no figures are out for the Escape Hybrid yet even though they are officially on sale. I'm guessing they just tied them in with the Escape nameplate.
Baggs - You're right. The 3 of those brands combined (Ford, Mazda, and Mercury) do have a greater marketshare than the Honda brand alone. Because Snowman questioned Honda's marketshare (I'm still not sure why), I was posting from a brand-specific point of view.
Generally, that's how they do things with marketshare. But if we took it from a vehicle point of view (CR-V vs Escape alone), then Ford has the greater share.
Comments
Many feel buy American is GM/Ford or Dodge.. This is old thinking. I would buy Toyota or Nissan or Honda but it will be made here in the U.S. Vote with your dollar demand American products and services. Companies understand one thing only, money.
("eh" in recognition of our Canadian members sitting on the sidelines watching the flag waving <g>).
Steve, Host
Not to fuel the fire that Steve is trying to snuff but, if I'm not mistaken all CR-V's are built in either Japan or England. I think it's the only Honda like that right?
At this point in time, most (about 90%) of Honda vehicles sold in the US are built in North America (US and Canada). This includes the Accord, most Civics, Odyssey, Pilot, Acura TL, Acura MDX, Element, and the upcoming SUT. The exceptions include niche vehicles and slow sellers like the Insight, S2000, hybrid Civic, Civic Si, Acura RL and Acura TSX.
Take a look a www.alldata.com and you will see Honda is the only manufacturer that will not release information to the public.. Hmmmm... wonder why??
Steve, Host
I drive G4 Taurus. I had sensor related problem and some other thing I screwed up; all of them were resolved by me with the help of Taurus specific discussion forums. People were posting TSB with full body in those forums to help each other.
So, this is another reason for to consider Ford/Dodge/GM or any brand that you can get wide support.
That's right! And Ford/Dodge/GM also have more coffee cup holders... :-)
Because all of the repairs for a make/vehicle are easy to find on the internet seems like a convoluted reason to purchase a specific make of vehicle. I'd rather buy the vehicle that has a proven record of less problems. But that's just me.
Where exactly is this "proof"? I for one would enjoy seeing it.
I don't think the question is whether or not the information is available (I've read just about every TSB there is for the CR-V at one time or another). They are out there. The question is whether or not those documents are available through the means with which you are familiar.
And I think I've misunderstood your concern. Are you concerned that the TSBs listed on the NHTSA site are only summaries and not the full text? Or are you concerned that the NHTSA does not have a complete listing?
It's pretty clear that the NHTSA provides more information (for a price). That is the point I was addressing.
"Please note that documents, which are summarized on database searches, may be ordered from NHTSA Technical Information Services. Fees are involved in providing these documents." - NHTSA
Scape2 - I think you've been corrected on the absence of TSBs from Alldata about 150 times in this forum. Honda is not the only one. Are you capable of learning? Or are you hoping that we'll get tired of correcting you and you might fool someone into thinking you know something?
He is talking about a record, I get that. Problem is, none of it has been proven by anyone. Not even Honda.
As far as I can tell the domestics are gaining ground in all those rags while the foreigns are losing it or sitting idle. Can't they improve too?
Once people start to realize this, and they will in time, the new "Chevy CR-V" won't be too far off.
Hmmm, I don't get it...
Steve, Host
But they are really impressed by the past/current/predicted Honda's reliability records. That's why they are buying Honda.
Detractors/competitors, who want to hurt Honda fame/sales, need to trumpet CR-V fires as much as they can. This could help to scare people off and hurt Honda. Looks like that's exactly what they are doing now. Savvy people always see hidden values (not so hidden in this case) and enjoy owning Honda even after fire scare.
Thanks, but nope, don't see any connection with "Chevy CR-V"...
Hey, how about CR-V made in England?
The wag on French TV cracked a "politically incorrect" joke :
Q: Why German cars are better than French?
A: Because German cars are made by Turks, while French cars are made by arabs.
BTW, who are making American cars???? :-)
Cars are so much better now than they were in the 60's - why people want to cruise in classics beats me. I guess breaking down in a 65 Mustang is a good way to meet people.
Steve, Host
As for the "proof". Varmint mentioned several of the sources. The CR-V has a better reliability record than the Escape. That is a fact. Dispute it all you want.
Anyone know?
I prefer a vehicle that can be fixed by any mechanic in anywhere. I prefer a vehicle that can be only fixed by a dealer. That is your choice, I respect that...
"Are you concerned that the TSBs listed on the NHTSA site are only summaries and not the full text? Or are you concerned that the NHTSA does not have a complete listing?"
I am not concern at all, I don't drive Honda anymore. But just for the record, yes to both...
I don't really disagree with that, but I think it's getting better for Detroit iron.
Steve, Host
I may be agree on the past part but current and future part I think that is a big BS. I guess, you don't really read Accord and Odyssey forums.
And who decides what is fact what is not?
Your CRV better be reliable, $25K for top of line I4 CRV. No thanks. $900 for alloy wheels, I'll leave it...
Jaguar woe, Far East joy: UK worst for car reliability (Warranty Direct)
Another point of reference....
Steve, Host
Tell you what. Find anything other than a personal anecdote citing the Escape as more reliable than the CR-V. We can trade anecdotes all day long... My CR-V just passed 100,000 miles with no mechanical failures (aside from maintenance & inflicted damage). Based on what I've read, no Escape owner can make a claim like that.
But that sort of thing does nothing for the discussion. I don't claim that my experience is what every buyer will enjoy. So the data we get from researchers is the best we have. If you don't like CR, try JD Powers. If you don't like JD Powers, try Strategic Vision. If you don't like the short term quality reports, try the long term studies. All of them rank the CR-V higher.
"you prefer a vehicle that can be only fixed by a dealer"
I don't. And that's all I said. Based on my readings, I am not aware of a single Escape owner who can make that claim. I never claimed it was impossible for it to happen.
As for mileage, I disagree. I know of two CR-V owners with 2002 models that have 100,000+ miles on their vehicles already.
And thanks for missing the point. I only mentioned my own milestone to point out that these anecdotes don't mean squat. Try reading the posts one of these days.
I don't see real Escape enthusiastics in Edmunds.com. They have their own forum(s) to discuss their things. If you pay attention, some make model problems and solution boards are dead in Edmunds. Why? B/C owners have their own forums.
But Honda side is going full blast.
I don't think that passing 100K limit without any problem is a tough thing in these days. It actually depends on you definition of problem. Any decent make model can achieve that goal.
Thanks.
tidester, host
Show me how any of the info from those sources is fact.
The only fact about them is, as varmint said, they are all we got. Manufacturers don't give us the facts and they are the only one's who can. Period.
We're all in the same boat when it comes to buying a vehicle. You take a chance.
Yep. The question is... do you bet on the horse that wins on a regular basis, or the one that never has?
I was talking about the use of anecdotes when I wrote about you missing the point. I was not talking about the entire reliability discussion.
On the other hand...
Consumer Reports currently ranks the CR-V about 65% above the industry average. The Escape is ranked at about negative 5%. This is a change from previous years where the CR-V was ranked about 40% in the positive and the Escape was ranked at negative 40%.
JD Powers lists the CR-V as the Most Dependable (long term) Small SUV for the 2004 awards. The Escape has not yet made that list.
Interestingly, the CR-V did not win the IQS (short term) in 2004 because that award was taken by the Honda Element. The CR-V did, however, win it in 2003 (the old design also won in 2000 and 2001). Again, the Escape has not yet won this award.
The CR-V did not win the recent Most Appealing award because the Element took it for 2003. The CR-V was the winner in 2002. Same story for the Escape... no award, yet. It's true that the APEAL award is not strictly a reliability award. However, reliability and quality are two key components in the study.
And those are just the individual ratings. When it comes to comparing companies based on the performance of their entire fleet, Honda repeatedly bests Ford in reliability and quality.
There are also other awards, like SV's Total Quality Award, which the CR-V won in 2002 and placed second in 2003. The Escape has not yet made the top three in their rankings. But, despite the name, this is another award that mixes customer satisfaction with reliability/quality.
The same is true in other countries.
The CAA (a Canadian org) ranks the CR-V among their top 10 vehicles for low frequency and cost of repairs combined with overall satisfaction and likelihood of buying another.
Ditto for the UK publication WHAT? (that's the name of the magazine) which does a similar comparison in the UK markets.
The truth of the matter shows that the Escape has come a long way in recent years. Ford appears to have worked out the bugs and the vehicle is even with the industry average. I am no longer afraid to recommend it to people. But there's no doubt that the CR-V is just plain better when it comes to reliability, dependability, and quality. The evidence is pretty much overwhelming.
people should buy Honda CRV, right? And if it is sooo good then Honda sould have substantial market share in small SUV market, right?
As a consumer, tell me why I should buy CRV...
Just because some magazines says Honda makes good and dependable cars...
Well, my Taurus's been dependable too, only power steering pump replaced @ 26K miles. And I didn't pay arm and leg to get it...
As a consumer, now should I accept what liberal media tells me (any intelligent person can figure out that they get paid by those award winning car manufacturers) and buy that recommended vehicle or should I listen my own voice and experience?
We had a Dodge Neon (2000) that I just recently sold to buy some other vehicle, despite what those magazines tell you, that vehicle never caused any problem for us. I have nothing but good experience with cars from Ford and Dodge. I never owned GM but I know that they make very reliable and smooth transmissions...
I owned Accords and one civic as well. They didn't caused any issue too...
Honda does have good marketshare in small SUVs (the most if you count CR-V and Element). I'm not clear on why you'd bring this up.
And you need to do some reading before making knee-jerk accusations about those sources.
You have to play fair now varmint.
YTD 09/2004:
Escape (140,718) + Mariner (723) + Tribute (31,024) = 172,465
CR-V (109,985) + Element (46,881) = 156,866
Care to explain your statement?
BTW, no figures are out for the Escape Hybrid yet even though they are officially on sale. I'm guessing they just tied them in with the Escape nameplate.
Generally, that's how they do things with marketshare. But if we took it from a vehicle point of view (CR-V vs Escape alone), then Ford has the greater share.