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Many feel buy American is GM/Ford or Dodge.. This is old thinking. I would buy Toyota or Nissan or Honda but it will be made here in the U.S. Vote with your dollar demand American products and services. Companies understand one thing only, money.
("eh" in recognition of our Canadian members sitting on the sidelines watching the flag waving <g>).
Steve, Host
Not to fuel the fire that Steve is trying to snuff but, if I'm not mistaken all CR-V's are built in either Japan or England. I think it's the only Honda like that right?
At this point in time, most (about 90%) of Honda vehicles sold in the US are built in North America (US and Canada). This includes the Accord, most Civics, Odyssey, Pilot, Acura TL, Acura MDX, Element, and the upcoming SUT. The exceptions include niche vehicles and slow sellers like the Insight, S2000, hybrid Civic, Civic Si, Acura RL and Acura TSX.
Take a look a www.alldata.com and you will see Honda is the only manufacturer that will not release information to the public.. Hmmmm... wonder why??
Steve, Host
I drive G4 Taurus. I had sensor related problem and some other thing I screwed up; all of them were resolved by me with the help of Taurus specific discussion forums. People were posting TSB with full body in those forums to help each other.
So, this is another reason for to consider Ford/Dodge/GM or any brand that you can get wide support.
That's right! And Ford/Dodge/GM also have more coffee cup holders... :-)
Because all of the repairs for a make/vehicle are easy to find on the internet seems like a convoluted reason to purchase a specific make of vehicle. I'd rather buy the vehicle that has a proven record of less problems. But that's just me.
Where exactly is this "proof"? I for one would enjoy seeing it.
I don't think the question is whether or not the information is available (I've read just about every TSB there is for the CR-V at one time or another). They are out there. The question is whether or not those documents are available through the means with which you are familiar.
And I think I've misunderstood your concern. Are you concerned that the TSBs listed on the NHTSA site are only summaries and not the full text? Or are you concerned that the NHTSA does not have a complete listing?
It's pretty clear that the NHTSA provides more information (for a price). That is the point I was addressing.
"Please note that documents, which are summarized on database searches, may be ordered from NHTSA Technical Information Services. Fees are involved in providing these documents." - NHTSA
Scape2 - I think you've been corrected on the absence of TSBs from Alldata about 150 times in this forum. Honda is not the only one. Are you capable of learning? Or are you hoping that we'll get tired of correcting you and you might fool someone into thinking you know something?
He is talking about a record, I get that. Problem is, none of it has been proven by anyone. Not even Honda.
As far as I can tell the domestics are gaining ground in all those rags while the foreigns are losing it or sitting idle. Can't they improve too?
Once people start to realize this, and they will in time, the new "Chevy CR-V" won't be too far off.
Hmmm, I don't get it...
Steve, Host
But they are really impressed by the past/current/predicted Honda's reliability records. That's why they are buying Honda.
Detractors/competitors, who want to hurt Honda fame/sales, need to trumpet CR-V fires as much as they can. This could help to scare people off and hurt Honda. Looks like that's exactly what they are doing now. Savvy people always see hidden values (not so hidden in this case) and enjoy owning Honda even after fire scare.
Thanks, but nope, don't see any connection with "Chevy CR-V"...
Hey, how about CR-V made in England?
The wag on French TV cracked a "politically incorrect" joke :
Q: Why German cars are better than French?
A: Because German cars are made by Turks, while French cars are made by arabs.
BTW, who are making American cars???? :-)
Cars are so much better now than they were in the 60's - why people want to cruise in classics beats me. I guess breaking down in a 65 Mustang is a good way to meet people.
Steve, Host
As for the "proof". Varmint mentioned several of the sources. The CR-V has a better reliability record than the Escape. That is a fact. Dispute it all you want.
Anyone know?
I prefer a vehicle that can be fixed by any mechanic in anywhere. I prefer a vehicle that can be only fixed by a dealer. That is your choice, I respect that...
"Are you concerned that the TSBs listed on the NHTSA site are only summaries and not the full text? Or are you concerned that the NHTSA does not have a complete listing?"
I am not concern at all, I don't drive Honda anymore. But just for the record, yes to both...
I don't really disagree with that, but I think it's getting better for Detroit iron.
Steve, Host
I may be agree on the past part but current and future part I think that is a big BS. I guess, you don't really read Accord and Odyssey forums.
And who decides what is fact what is not?
Your CRV better be reliable, $25K for top of line I4 CRV. No thanks. $900 for alloy wheels, I'll leave it...
Jaguar woe, Far East joy: UK worst for car reliability (Warranty Direct)
Another point of reference....
Steve, Host
Tell you what. Find anything other than a personal anecdote citing the Escape as more reliable than the CR-V. We can trade anecdotes all day long... My CR-V just passed 100,000 miles with no mechanical failures (aside from maintenance & inflicted damage). Based on what I've read, no Escape owner can make a claim like that.
But that sort of thing does nothing for the discussion. I don't claim that my experience is what every buyer will enjoy. So the data we get from researchers is the best we have. If you don't like CR, try JD Powers. If you don't like JD Powers, try Strategic Vision. If you don't like the short term quality reports, try the long term studies. All of them rank the CR-V higher.
"you prefer a vehicle that can be only fixed by a dealer"
I don't. And that's all I said. Based on my readings, I am not aware of a single Escape owner who can make that claim. I never claimed it was impossible for it to happen.
As for mileage, I disagree. I know of two CR-V owners with 2002 models that have 100,000+ miles on their vehicles already.
And thanks for missing the point. I only mentioned my own milestone to point out that these anecdotes don't mean squat. Try reading the posts one of these days.
I don't see real Escape enthusiastics in Edmunds.com. They have their own forum(s) to discuss their things. If you pay attention, some make model problems and solution boards are dead in Edmunds. Why? B/C owners have their own forums.
But Honda side is going full blast.
I don't think that passing 100K limit without any problem is a tough thing in these days. It actually depends on you definition of problem. Any decent make model can achieve that goal.
Thanks.
tidester, host
Show me how any of the info from those sources is fact.
The only fact about them is, as varmint said, they are all we got. Manufacturers don't give us the facts and they are the only one's who can. Period.
We're all in the same boat when it comes to buying a vehicle. You take a chance.
Yep. The question is... do you bet on the horse that wins on a regular basis, or the one that never has?
I was talking about the use of anecdotes when I wrote about you missing the point. I was not talking about the entire reliability discussion.
On the other hand...
Consumer Reports currently ranks the CR-V about 65% above the industry average. The Escape is ranked at about negative 5%. This is a change from previous years where the CR-V was ranked about 40% in the positive and the Escape was ranked at negative 40%.
JD Powers lists the CR-V as the Most Dependable (long term) Small SUV for the 2004 awards. The Escape has not yet made that list.
Interestingly, the CR-V did not win the IQS (short term) in 2004 because that award was taken by the Honda Element. The CR-V did, however, win it in 2003 (the old design also won in 2000 and 2001). Again, the Escape has not yet won this award.
The CR-V did not win the recent Most Appealing award because the Element took it for 2003. The CR-V was the winner in 2002. Same story for the Escape... no award, yet. It's true that the APEAL award is not strictly a reliability award. However, reliability and quality are two key components in the study.
And those are just the individual ratings. When it comes to comparing companies based on the performance of their entire fleet, Honda repeatedly bests Ford in reliability and quality.
There are also other awards, like SV's Total Quality Award, which the CR-V won in 2002 and placed second in 2003. The Escape has not yet made the top three in their rankings. But, despite the name, this is another award that mixes customer satisfaction with reliability/quality.
The same is true in other countries.
The CAA (a Canadian org) ranks the CR-V among their top 10 vehicles for low frequency and cost of repairs combined with overall satisfaction and likelihood of buying another.
Ditto for the UK publication WHAT? (that's the name of the magazine) which does a similar comparison in the UK markets.
The truth of the matter shows that the Escape has come a long way in recent years. Ford appears to have worked out the bugs and the vehicle is even with the industry average. I am no longer afraid to recommend it to people. But there's no doubt that the CR-V is just plain better when it comes to reliability, dependability, and quality. The evidence is pretty much overwhelming.
people should buy Honda CRV, right? And if it is sooo good then Honda sould have substantial market share in small SUV market, right?
As a consumer, tell me why I should buy CRV...
Just because some magazines says Honda makes good and dependable cars...
Well, my Taurus's been dependable too, only power steering pump replaced @ 26K miles. And I didn't pay arm and leg to get it...
As a consumer, now should I accept what liberal media tells me (any intelligent person can figure out that they get paid by those award winning car manufacturers) and buy that recommended vehicle or should I listen my own voice and experience?
We had a Dodge Neon (2000) that I just recently sold to buy some other vehicle, despite what those magazines tell you, that vehicle never caused any problem for us. I have nothing but good experience with cars from Ford and Dodge. I never owned GM but I know that they make very reliable and smooth transmissions...
I owned Accords and one civic as well. They didn't caused any issue too...
Honda does have good marketshare in small SUVs (the most if you count CR-V and Element). I'm not clear on why you'd bring this up.
And you need to do some reading before making knee-jerk accusations about those sources.
You have to play fair now varmint.
YTD 09/2004:
Escape (140,718) + Mariner (723) + Tribute (31,024) = 172,465
CR-V (109,985) + Element (46,881) = 156,866
Care to explain your statement?
BTW, no figures are out for the Escape Hybrid yet even though they are officially on sale. I'm guessing they just tied them in with the Escape nameplate.
Generally, that's how they do things with marketshare. But if we took it from a vehicle point of view (CR-V vs Escape alone), then Ford has the greater share.