Isell: What are you saying that most dealerships and their staff care about something other than money? Give me a break! I wonder who reduced it all to just about money?
Yup that is true. If you keep the car for 5 plus years then you will save more money by not dumping more money into a depreciating asset.
Even if you overpay a little bit in the long run it works out.
Quick story. Last week I had a guy who wanted to trade out of a car he bought used 10 months ago. I appraised it and put 19,500 on it or so. That was real money all the money in the world on that particular car. He freaks out yelling at me that I am trying to rob him because no way a car depreciates 15,000 dollars in 10 months.
:confuse:
Huh 15,000 dollars you paid 35,000 dollars for that car????
Sorry buddy you overpaid by 5,000 dollars.
Now did he get ripped off? Yup by far he did.
But if he had kept the car for say 36 or 48 months instead of 10 months it wouldn't have really mattered.
Even if you overpay a little bit in the long run it works out.
I think the goal of every consumer probably should be overpay as little as possible and to do so as infrequently as possible. Obviously, some are too impulsive and unable to plan and/or control their urges.
Having said that, the overpaying on used cars is typically much more frequent because it is much harder to find a fair market price on a used car than it is on a new one. Thus, the profits on used are now typically much higher than on new vehicles.
Personally, I do not believe in paying anything around $35k for a used vehicle, that is just comical because there are plenty of very good new cars I would rather buy for that kind of money. This way I only get to create my "own" problems.
But if he had kept the car for say 36 or 48 months instead of 10 months it wouldn't have really mattered.
Rover there are few people on here I respect more than you but I have to disagree with you on that one. Yes if the guy is taking a $5000 bath every 10 months then it is a big problem but $5000 every three or fours years is bad too. That is still over $100 a month that you are just throwing away. For me that is money I could be putting in my retirement, saving for my kids education or paying my vacation air fare.
I don't mind leaving a little on the table for an easy deal but that will be measured in hundreds and not thousands. I want to retire when I am 55 (39 now) and I simply can't afford it.
I know you deal in high end cars and I just wondered if you notice a difference between people who made their own money and those that were born with it? I am in an investment club with several very successful who are self made. I find that they are very careful with their money. They pretty much know where it is and how much they have all the time.
I know, but staying awake 24/7 was killing my social life
Jip... that's the 2-hours during which I was taking a nap.
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I am happy to report that I recently bought my first-ever brand new car, and I did it largely with the assistance of the information and opinions found at Edmunds.com and these CarSpace chat forums. I'd like to return the favor in some measure by describing my experience, and offering some advice for future shoppers.
I should mention that although I am far from young, I had yet to purchase a brand new automobile, though I could easily afford one. I'm fairly mechanically inclined, have some decent tools, and have found that, contrary to popular opinion, 5- and 10-year-old cars are far more dependable than many believe. So I traditionally have purchased 3-to-5-year-old used cars (letting someone else suffer the initial depreciation), then maintained and drove them literally until I no longer could. My most recent car was a 1992 Dodge Colt (Mitsubishi Mirage), bought with 36,000 miles, which I purchased from a private seller for $3400. I drove it nearly 10 years, and put an additional 170,000 miles on it during my daily highway commutes, with very few repairs. If I could find a decent mechanic who was willing to remove rusty studs to replace a cracked exhaust manifold, I might still be driving it today.
But my savings account was filled to bursting (you'd be surprised how much money you can squirrel away by driving a 14-year-old car), and several automakers would soon be offering year-end sales, so I began considering a brand new car. I did all my preliminary research, pricing, and even arranged to BUY my new car online; not bad for a balding, middle-aged guy who only a few years ago considered email a passing fad.
I started by spending a few hours perusing the wealth of information found at Edmunds.com, these CarSpace forums, and other car-research websites. I even joined several message boards devoted to enthusiasts of the various car models I was considering, as their common appreciation and complaints gave me a better insight into the cars on my list.
When I had my choice narrowed down to two or three models, I visited several local dealers who carried the cars I wanted. Here in Wisconsin (and perhaps some other states) an old and obscure law prohibits car sales on Sundays, so shoppers are free to leisurely stroll around the dealers' lots in broad daylight, kicking tires and peering in windows, without the distraction of salespeople. I made good use of this benefit, and handily dismissed two of the models based on my particular needs and observations, finally settling on the Toyota Matrix. I was able to test-drive a friend's Matrix, and decided I liked it enough to start the ball rolling.
Through my visits (although I feasibly could have learned this online as well), I knew that the two local dealers each had one or two Matrix in stock, equipped exactly as I wanted. A bit of further online research on a community chat forum suggested that one dealer had a better reputation than the other; this dealer fortunately also had TWO copies of the exact car I wanted, so he might be more inclined to price it to move before the end of the year.
The next day I visited my credit union to transfer some funds, and inquired about a small auto loan to meet the expected purchase price. I was quickly pre-approved, so that night I visited the chosen dealer's website and perused his inventory. I selected the exact car I was interested in, and was offered the following options: Request a Quote; Make an Offer; Schedule a Test Drive; or Request Financing. I requested a quote and attached the following message:
"Internet Sales Manager,
After considering several different models, I have decided to purchase a 2007 Toyota Matrix XR within the next few days. I am a serious buyer from the [city] area, and am contacting only a very small number of area Toyota dealers, one of whom I plan to buy from. I hope to have the car serviced by the dealer from whom I purchase it. Please reply with your price for this or a similarly-equipped Matrix."
I think it is important that this note made it clear to the Internet Sales Manager that I was indeed a serious buyer, I knew what I wanted, would be buying soon, suggested that I was also shopping his competition, and may be bringing future business into his service department.
As forum member "isellhondas" and others have pointed out here, the Internet is easy to abuse, and many dealers with web-sales departments are daily inundated with email requests from shoppers sitting at home in their underwear and slippers, casually firing off 50 or 100 "shotgun" emails to dealers in several neighboring states, but harboring no real intention to actually buy anytime soon. By contrast, I wanted to make it clear to this dealer that I was interested and ready to sign the first good deal that I was offered.
A Successful First-Time Internet Car-Buying Experience, Part 2
Within two hours of sending my request for a quote I got a personal response (via both email and a phone message) from the dealer's Internet Sales Manager (who I will call Blake), with an estimate that was within $100 of my planned initial, lowball, no-way-will-they-bite offer, and more than $900 below Edmunds' Typical Market Value. I replied immediately to schedule a final test drive the following Saturday.
As soon as my foot hit the pavement, a perky sales guy appeared, eager to engage me and get a deal going. I cordially shook his hand and told him I had an appointment with Blake. He was visibly disappointed, as this meant the sale would go to Blake, and perhaps additionally because it was a discounted web-sale, but he remained polite, and invited me in for coffee while I waited for Blake.
When he appeared, we went out to look over the two colors I was considering, he explained the various features and options, and we went for a final test drive. He only casually asked whether I had a trade-in (I didn't), and seemed not to care that I had already arranged financing through my credit union.
When we got back to the dealership, he crunched the numbers one final time; they were in line with my own, so we shook hands and got the paperwork going while the car was washed and detailed. I spent ten minutes with the Finance & Insurance Manager, who quickly prepared the title and lien forms, and of course offered me several overpriced sealcoats, upholstery treatments, etc., which I politely declined. I wrote a personal check for the entire amount, signed the forms, and a customer service rep. soon escorted me to the auto bay, where my gleaming new ride was waiting. She spent several minutes instructing me on all the controls and features of my new car, and I soon glided out the big overhead doors. The entire process took little more than an hour.
There are several key points that I believe contributed to a smooth and mutually beneficial transaction:
1) Knowledge is power. I was prepared: I had done all my research–on Edmunds.com and other sites–I knew what I wanted, and was ready to buy. When I casually mentioned to Blake that I had recently seen an Asian press release announcing that another model that I had considered–and which was currently well-stocked on their lot–was about to be discontinued, he shook his head with surprise. "Really? Geez, you people learn stuff on the Internet MONTHS before the manufacturers tell US anything ..."
I also had in my hand a 1" three-ring binder whose contents were organized by topic tabs, and which held all the information I needed to negotiate a traditional new-car purchase: MSRP and options prices from the manufacturer, invoice and TMV from Edmunds.com, my various offers I was willing to make, notes on negotiating, etc.. If Blake had handed me over to one of the usual car salesmen, and had they started in with the games for which they are unfortunately so well known, I was fully prepared to quickly negotiate an attractive deal or walk out.
2) My inquiry letter made it clear that I was ready to buy.
At one point, when the deal was already signed and I felt Blake might be more candid with me, I asked him about their Internet sales. He said that the dealership previously had contracted with a well-known online car-buying service which boasts the ability to connect buyers with local dealers selling at invoice. The dealership paid a $20 'prospect' fee to the service for each customer it sent their way. Unfortunately, few actually bought, partly because of disreputable claims made by the service. For example, the online service claimed that "local dealers are waiting to offer you a new Toyota Prius at INVOICE!" As anyone knows, the Prius was at that time a highly sought-after model, with a 4- to 8-month waiting list, and because of the high demand and low supply, was selling for full list price, sometimes more. When eager Internet shoppers arrived to see the Prius and were informed of the actual selling price, they were understandably upset–not with the misleading car-buying service, but with the dealer! Needless to say, the dealership quit using the disreputable service.
I suppose when Blake originally responded with his excellent price quote, I could have begun firing off a bunch of emails to other dealers, to see if they would beat his price, then use those quotes as ammunition against Blake's. But rather than wasting his time and mine, I instead opted to reward his promptness and good price by scheduling a final test ride and purchase.
Blake said that in general, about 40% of the emails received through the dealership's own website are now converted into sales, so he must be doing something right.
3) Most car shoppers know that the end of month is a good time to buy, as dealerships are eager to meet their sales goals. Even better is the last week of the last month of the year; the sweet spot between Christmas and New Year's. Not coincidentally, this is when Toyota and many other carmakers run their year-end sales events.
Blake claimed the price we'd agreed on was 'down into the holdback' (below invoice), but my numbers indicate we were still $180 above that. In other words, I believe he was still garnering the full holdback ($335, by my informed estimates) plus $180. Regardless, I perhaps could have chiseled him for a deeper discount, but the car I was buying is fairly low-priced to begin with (under $18,000), is in relatively short supply, and according to my research, currently offers no other factory rebates or incentives to the dealer. If shopping instead for a plentiful car like a Camry, Accord, or a Focus Sedan, or buying a higher-margin car like a Lexus or SUV, one could reasonably expect a deeper discount.
I also feel that every auto dealer, like any other business, deserves to make SOME kind of profit margin, and I was not determined to cut him to the bone on price. Instead, I wanted to award that profit to a deserving dealer that seems to be working hard to polish the tarnished image of sleazy car dealers.
A Successful First-Time Internet Car-Buying Experience, Part 3
In addition, much of the credit for this smooth and painless experience must go to the dealership:
4) They had a well-designed website, making it easy to browse their inventory, and the Internet Sales Manager responded very promptly. He was ready when I got there, the purchase process went smoothly, and they seemed intent on making it easy to buy.
5) They quickly shot me what I consider to be a very good price, right from the start, and then stuck to it. They played no games with accessories, options, hidden fees, or confusing financing schemes, and there was no protracted dickering or shuttle diplomacy with imaginary sales managers while I fidgeted in the glass cage. They were straight-up, honest, and professional. If you instead find yourself in a den of thieves, it's true that your most valuable asset is your feet: walk out and find a good dealer who still has some self-respect. They are out there, and you can reward them with your purchase.
After a few weeks with my new car, I am enjoying it immensely, and still feel it was well worth the money and the time I spent researching its purchase. As with all my previous USED cars, I intend to enjoy my NEW ride for a very long time; with proper care and maintenance, I fully expect to drive this car for over ten years and 200,000 miles.
The only difference is that this time I get to enjoy that new-car smell ...
thank you for sharing your story! I was an internet manager for a while when i sold cars, and i loved making the sale as easy as possible for people. its really nice to hear that people appreciate that kind of sale. i had to fight my managers about selling cars this way, because the owner wanted to do the whole "come on down and we'll talk price" gimmick.
I purchased my Honda out here in Arizona mainly using the internet to make contact and ask questions. My wife totaled my 99 Camry LE, so we needed a new car kind of quickly. Although I didn't word my first inquiry the way you did, I found the whole experience to be stress free and very easy. The hardest push was for the extended warranty, but the manager said he had to try, so my wife & I went along, said "no" and that was that. It was nice from the standpoint of not being jerked around, no games, and using the research I did on the net, I felt pretty good about the whole thing. And considering that my & I were not ready to face the whole car-buying process and dreaded what we thought was going to happen, we both were impressed and relieved that it was as easy as it was.
The discrepancy between invoice figures may well have been related to TDA, a legitimate charge never reported by popularly published sources. It varies depending on model and region but could easily have been $360 in your case.
Even I dont have a smart comment for this one. Job well done. Well, maybe 1 smart remark. Short supply of Toyota Matrix's?....What, did they quit making them last year or something?
Agreed: There are plenty of people who would... but probably should not.
But ask youself this question: what kind of person would spend $80k on a ride that is used? If I can spend 80k, I should certainly be able to spend 100k? If I was spending that much, why would I care which amount it is? The answer is pretty simple because no one NEEDS a vehicle in that range. Thus, you are talking about a person who cannot control their own emotions and feelings? And who actually lacks the means to spend the few extra grand.
Some people will simply buy the fanciest set of wheels they can NOT afford... which is very sad in a country with a negative savings rate.
"But ask youself this question: what kind of person would spend $80k on a ride that is used? If I can spend 80k, I should certainly be able to spend 100k?"
I was surfing eBay motors and stumbled across a used 05 Porsche Carrera GT with something like 1500 miles give or take. Bidding started in the $330K range. When I looked at the dealer's available finance terms I saw that you could have the car for something like $2600/month for 144 months at 8.9% APR. Of course, that rate works only if you make a $95K down-payment and does not include applicable taxes. It's hard to believe that anyone with that kind of money and minimal financial sense would contemplate such an arrangement, but a fool and his money...
Yikes depending on the color of that Carrera it is either just over priced or WAAAYYYYYY over priced.
That is a Sub 300K car all day long.
RE the used 80,000 dollar Range Rover: I sold that Range and another Land Rover to the CEO of a major company. He bought the Range for himself and the Disco for his daughter. He paid cash for both along with two trade ins and could easily have paid full list new car price for each if he wanted.
You don't get to be CEO by being dumb though, well there are some exeptions to that rule I guess but in general you don't, he knows Euor cars depreciate rapidly from new. Why spend 20-30% more then he needs to for the same car.
I guess when I say "relatively short supply" I am comparing the Matrix to other, more common models.
For example, my shopping showed that dealers in my area typically stocked no more than about ten Matrix; some even less. By contrast, those same dealers had in inventory as many as 40 Camrys and over 50 Corollas! Nearby Ford dealers had 20-30 Focus Sedans on the lots.
When you have only ten Matrix to consider, and after dismissing several undesirable option and color choices, this can easily narrow your selection down to only one or two examples configured the way you want. Laws of supply-and-demand being what they are, that simply doesn't put you in a very good position from which to negotiate a screamin' deal ...
All in all, I think I got a pretty good price for a great car.
I was surfing eBay motors and stumbled across a used 05 Porsche Carrera GT with something like 1500 miles give or take. Bidding started in the $330K range.
I wonder what the wait time on one of suckers is? I bet most dealers do not have them in stock? And yes, there is one born every minute....
Why spend 20-30% more than he needs to for the same car.
Is that what you tell your new car customers? :P
Someone buying a 25k vehicle 1 or 2 years old is doing so for the same reason someone buying a 80k vehicle is doing so. So they won't have to take the big depreciation hit.
Why spend 20-30% more? Most people feel a newer car is more reliable and that they won't be buying someone elses problem.
Honestly I would prefer to sell used cars over new cars anyway. If we have something used in stock that would fit what a new car buyer is looking for I will show it to them.
1. I make more money on used cars. 2. The typical used car buyer tends to go from greeting to sale quicker. 3. There is no CSI to worry about with used cars. 4. Low mileage used cars have been through their shakedown period already and have fewer problems out of the box.
One year isn't going to save you 20-30% on most used cars. Some domestics will depreciate that fast, at least from the artificaly high MSRP they have, and some european cars will depreciate that fast but not all. At two years you will see that 20-30% on a lot more cars but unless it was a relatively expensive, it is all relative afterall and anything sub $45k is not that expensive, vehicle to begin with then it is not much in gross dollars.
Whenever we have traded in a vehicle on a NEW vehicle, the salesman told us they make more money on the trade in than the new one.
That is why one local DC dealer sells 10 used Grand Caravans to every new one and always has 3 or 4 times as many used Grand Caravans on the lot than new.
That is the only good reason! There is not as much competition on used cars and that is why you enjoy additional profits. And it is much more difficult to shop used vehicles compared to brand new ones where the exact value can be based on MSRP/invoice. No one has the exactly the same unit and they are all different.
One year isn't going to save you 20-30% on most used cars. Really? I buy one of your vehicles and then trade it back in a year, you will not knock 20-30% off my original purchase price?
That is the only good reason! There is not as much competition on used cars and that is why you enjoy additional profits. And it is much more difficult to shop used vehicles compared to brand new ones where the exact value can be based on MSRP/invoice. No one has the exactly the same unit and they are all different.
There is actually more competition on used cars then new cars. One new cars you are only competing with other franchised dealers for a particular car but with used cars you are competing with any dealer who happens to have that car and sometimes private parties as well.
You might not be able to look up invoice on a used car, and by the way negotiating off of invoice is a very bad way to negotiate a new car, but you can get a good idea of aproximate tradein, wholesale, private party, retail value for a used car and use that in negotiation.
Most used car inventory is online and a lot of times new car inventory is not. You can do a search for the particular model you are looking at and get a range of values for 50-75 miles around your location. Elminate any cars at shady dealers with the WE CAN GET YOU APPROVED lines and then go from there.
I make more money on used cars because that is how our pay plan is set up. The dealership makes a lot of money on new cars but I see very little of it so I concentrate on used cars.
New cars are almost perfect commodities but used cars are all different... miles, dings, etc. This makes it harder to compare and compete. Agreed: invoice is goofy number made up to pretend that it is a proxy for cost. Many vehicle sell for invoice or lower today...
New car inventories are not online for higher end makes like LR but they are all online for Honda, Toyota, GM, Ford, etc. Yes, this makes it harder to create competition, the cost of finding alternative goes up rather significantly for the consumer.
I make more money on used cars because that is how our pay plan is set up. This has been an ongoing trend for over a decade: it is driven by competition that is fueled by the Internet enabling consumers...
Ever see a day where consumer information catches up to where getting a price close to actual dealer cost is just as easy on a used car as on new? Have you noticed the margin on used car sales slipping any due to internet, information more readily available via internet?
It is very difficult to compare used vehicles when trying to guesstimate its worth. This obviously works to the dealerships advantage.
To answer my own question, I would think having a web site where wholesale listings are given for free to the customers may make a difference in sale prices. Edmunds TMV for used car retail is really not much help. An acceptable(to dealership) price for the consumer to have as a goal would seem to be more in the lines of dealer trade-in.
If information on pricing at a place like Manheim auctions was available to consumers, used car prices would be right inline with new pricing. The information exists, the only question is the (cost of) access!
If information on pricing at a place like Manheim auctions was available to consumers, used car prices would be right inline with new pricing
I totally disagree....simply because each used car is an individual. Looking at an auction report is almost worthless because you don't have any clue as to the actual condition of the car... You have no idea how the car was driven, serviced, abused, smoked in, body work, paint work, etc. What about regional price differences? I can see people coming in saying "manheim in miami sold my rear wheel drive, white car for $xxxxx and the guy lives in Boston where RWD white cars are as popular as a snake at the garden party...New cars are easy, they are all the same.
It is certainly more precise than Edmunds! KBB is worse: it is often a complete joke because there is no away that a fair trade-in in 7-8k away from dealer list of $15k.
When I look at 2-3 old lease returns at Manheim, they go within a very narrow range. Given that range, most folks can gauge a reasonable range for Accord EX-L! Have you tried that at a dealership near you?
And I certainly agree that new cars are much easier!
Dealers may not like it if everyone knew what their vehicle was worth at auction but it would certainly stop the scalping that often takes places at some dealerships.
I live in the Washington DC area and I am shopping for a Honda. I have sent out a few requests for quotes to dealers around the beltway, and I am getting some good responses. None of them are anything special, but most of them are within 500 of each other.
However, some salespeople just simply refuse to give me a quote, or their quote is so high that I would not consider working with them. And these are the most obnoxious and arrogant salespeople around. They call me or email twice a day with the usual crap. But, what pisses me off is that every single one of them told me to bring them my lowest quote and they will try to match it. All I want to say to them “You are slimy SOB, you are playing games with me by refusing to show me your price and in addition you want me to help you to screw another honest salesman over who worked hard to earn this deal the honest way!”
My fellow internet shoppers, please don’t hor(?sp) yourselves out to these sleazebags for a $100. These people are so sleazy they will suck the life out of you for that 100 (no punt intended), and you will probably get screwed out of more money than you saved. If a salesman is refusing to give you a quote, buy from the one that does. Please reward honest upfront behavior with your business, because if you don’t, all of us will loose in the long run. The honest salespeople will stop giving us quotes and only the sleazebags will be left standing.
Hosts, if I have crossed the line, I apologias in advance.
internet quotes are used to gather information. request quotes from various providers and from dealer web site from a larger radius from where you work or live. territories over lap so some dealers see multiple quotes from the same shopper. diffinately do *not* blow off the dealers who don't reply. save those tough ones for last when you have the "best price quote". also, just because you get a quote from one sales person doesn't mean you can't buy from another. you're spending thousands of dollars, you owe it to yourself and family to save 100 maybe more... probably more, but you certainly don't know the best price until 3 quotes and 3 dealership visit ... it's the 3 & 3 rule. plus, if a sales person will not quote you, call the GSM at the store and pitch him or her, then you'll see if the cancer starts at the head or not. it's prudent to not take the word of one salesperson, it's just good business to shop around. and you just might pay choose to pay one dealer more than another but you'll at least do it informed and without regret.
Salepeople generaly do not give quotes via e-mail because:
1. It is not worth their time to gather information and give a quote because they will get very few closings based upon this.
2. If they give their quote someone else will beat it by $5 and their time for getting this quote would have been waisted.
3. If a person would want a quote on an item like an auto just go to the dealer.
If you are looking to save money take some time and go to each dealer and be truthfull and and eventualy you will be rewarded with an acceptable price.
so you have a sleazeball salesperson pulling all kinds of tricks, but has the lowest price, because you bring him your info, and he beats it by $50, you buy from him? of course you have to care about your family and financial security - but when people STOP caring about others at all, thats when it becomes an issue. someone is honest and up front about a price, and the sleazeball beats it by a few bucks, and you reward the sleazeball with a sale? doesn't seem to fair to me...
either that, or that $50 is REALLY important to you...
MD dealers are much better than VA. Their prices are better, their attitude is better and their junk fees (aka processing or documentation fees) are caped at $100. It seems that the prices get better as you move further north from the beltway.
Criswell gave me the lowest quote, however, when I pressed him on availability and pricing of certain accessories, he didn’t reply. I heard a lot praise here for Sport Honda in Silver Spring. I found the salesperson to be honest and easy to deal with, but her quote was only average. Heritage store in Baltimore also gave me an aggressive quote. Like I said, all of MD dealers quotes were within 500 of each other. Now, VA stores on the other hand
But, what pisses me off is that every single one of them told me to bring them my lowest quote and they will try to match it.
Price Matching claims in this business (and many others) are just a way to try to drag customers into the showroom. Be very careful because some dealerships will say anything just to get you there. Once you are there, all gloves are off and they will claim that price was "a mistake". :mad: You will love that after you had driven 50 miles!
Over the years, I have had a few places promise me to match pricing but none have yet delivered! Most talk big, but cannot/won't deliver when push comes to shove. Get it all in writing before you start driving!
NO Quote? Fine, move on and keep expanding your search up/down 95!
BTW: not too many consumers will be swayed by 0.2-0.4% discount to stray from their local dealership... maybe if it is the next one over.
shoparaund, just think practically for a minute. So you do save 50 or 100 by rewarding the sleazeball with your business this time, and everybody does the same. As the result, the honest salespeople will stop giving quotes because they make no money doing that. What do you think will happen the next time you shop? You will have no quotes to show the sleazeball and you will end up paying hundreds more.
Therefore, 100 you save today will cost you hundreds tomorrow.
exactly exb0. there comes a point where its just not worth the $50 to deal with the slimeball. if someone has been forthcoming and honest in the transaction (which it seems consumers want) then reward them with the sale, even if its $50-$100 more than the next guy. that money spent is not going to kill you financially...and if it is, maybe you should be buying a cheaper car!
In my prior Honda searches I have found MD dealerships are typically better. And no, there are no local dealerships that post prices that even close to those at fitzmall or carmax. You can sometimes do better than either one of those if you search a little harder... and expand your range.
If you are looking to save money take some time and go to each dealer and be truthfull and and eventualy you will be rewarded with an acceptable price.
You are out of your mind? Do you think visiting is going to help anything? That is a VERY costly suggestion that will result in you settling very quickly and typically not cheaply. How many dealers would come to my door if I invited them to come over and make me some offers? Do NOT move from you desk without a reasonable price already in hand!
Truthful? Yes, but do not disclose too much information about yourself unless you think it is relavant in helping you make the deal.
We live in Springfield VA and have bought Hondas at Hendrick in Woodbridge and at three of the Rosenthal stores (Landmark, Tysons, and Fairfax). They all seemed good to me.
I had a bad experience at Pohanka Honda in Marlow Heights in 1995.
If you know exactly what you want and exactly how much you are willing to pay, any store should be OK.
Comments
It's all about money. That is all they care about and then they come to these forums and complain about the way they were treated.
The most important thing is to buy a car that you truly want.
If you love the car, you will probably keep it longer, and that will save you more money in the long run.
The price is secondary.
Even if you overpay a little bit in the long run it works out.
Quick story. Last week I had a guy who wanted to trade out of a car he bought used 10 months ago. I appraised it and put 19,500 on it or so. That was real money all the money in the world on that particular car. He freaks out yelling at me that I am trying to rob him because no way a car depreciates 15,000 dollars in 10 months.
:confuse:
Huh 15,000 dollars you paid 35,000 dollars for that car????
Sorry buddy you overpaid by 5,000 dollars.
Now did he get ripped off? Yup by far he did.
But if he had kept the car for say 36 or 48 months instead of 10 months it wouldn't have really mattered.
I think the goal of every consumer probably should be overpay as little as possible and to do so as infrequently as possible. Obviously, some are too impulsive and unable to plan and/or control their urges.
Having said that, the overpaying on used cars is typically much more frequent because it is much harder to find a fair market price on a used car than it is on a new one. Thus, the profits on used are now typically much higher than on new vehicles.
Personally, I do not believe in paying anything around $35k for a used vehicle, that is just comical because there are plenty of very good new cars I would rather buy for that kind of money. This way I only get to create my "own" problems.
Rover there are few people on here I respect more than you but I have to disagree with you on that one. Yes if the guy is taking a $5000 bath every 10 months then it is a big problem but $5000 every three or fours years is bad too. That is still over $100 a month that you are just throwing away. For me that is money I could be putting in my retirement, saving for my kids education or paying my vacation air fare.
I don't mind leaving a little on the table for an easy deal but that will be measured in hundreds and not thousands. I want to retire when I am 55 (39 now) and I simply can't afford it.
I know you deal in high end cars and I just wondered if you notice a difference between people who made their own money and those that were born with it? I am in an investment club with several very successful who are self made. I find that they are very careful with their money. They pretty much know where it is and how much they have all the time.
:surprise: Ouch... sounds like somebody didn't have their nap today.
Hang in there.
Jip... that's the 2-hours during which I was taking a nap.
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I should mention that although I am far from young, I had yet to purchase a brand new automobile, though I could easily afford one. I'm fairly mechanically inclined, have some decent tools, and have found that, contrary to popular opinion, 5- and 10-year-old cars are far more dependable than many believe. So I traditionally have purchased 3-to-5-year-old used cars (letting someone else suffer the initial depreciation), then maintained and drove them literally until I no longer could. My most recent car was a 1992 Dodge Colt (Mitsubishi Mirage), bought with 36,000 miles, which I purchased from a private seller for $3400. I drove it nearly 10 years, and put an additional 170,000 miles on it during my daily highway commutes, with very few repairs. If I could find a decent mechanic who was willing to remove rusty studs to replace a cracked exhaust manifold, I might still be driving it today.
But my savings account was filled to bursting (you'd be surprised how much money you can squirrel away by driving a 14-year-old car), and several automakers would soon be offering year-end sales, so I began considering a brand new car. I did all my preliminary research, pricing, and even arranged to BUY my new car online; not bad for a balding, middle-aged guy who only a few years ago considered email a passing fad.
I started by spending a few hours perusing the wealth of information found at Edmunds.com, these CarSpace forums, and other car-research websites. I even joined several message boards devoted to enthusiasts of the various car models I was considering, as their common appreciation and complaints gave me a better insight into the cars on my list.
When I had my choice narrowed down to two or three models, I visited several local dealers who carried the cars I wanted. Here in Wisconsin (and perhaps some other states) an old and obscure law prohibits car sales on Sundays, so shoppers are free to leisurely stroll around the dealers' lots in broad daylight, kicking tires and peering in windows, without the distraction of salespeople. I made good use of this benefit, and handily dismissed two of the models based on my particular needs and observations, finally settling on the Toyota Matrix. I was able to test-drive a friend's Matrix, and decided I liked it enough to start the ball rolling.
Through my visits (although I feasibly could have learned this online as well), I knew that the two local dealers each had one or two Matrix in stock, equipped exactly as I wanted. A bit of further online research on a community chat forum suggested that one dealer had a better reputation than the other; this dealer fortunately also had TWO copies of the exact car I wanted, so he might be more inclined to price it to move before the end of the year.
The next day I visited my credit union to transfer some funds, and inquired about a small auto loan to meet the expected purchase price. I was quickly pre-approved, so that night I visited the chosen dealer's website and perused his inventory. I selected the exact car I was interested in, and was offered the following options: Request a Quote; Make an Offer; Schedule a Test Drive; or Request Financing. I requested a quote and attached the following message:
"Internet Sales Manager,
After considering several different models, I have decided to purchase a 2007 Toyota Matrix XR within the next few days.
I am a serious buyer from the [city] area, and am contacting only a very small number of area Toyota dealers, one of whom I plan to buy from. I hope to have the car serviced by the dealer from whom I purchase it.
Please reply with your price for this or a similarly-equipped Matrix."
I think it is important that this note made it clear to the Internet Sales Manager that I was indeed a serious buyer, I knew what I wanted, would be buying soon, suggested that I was also shopping his competition, and may be bringing future business into his service department.
As forum member "isellhondas" and others have pointed out here, the Internet is easy to abuse, and many dealers with web-sales departments are daily inundated with email requests from shoppers sitting at home in their underwear and slippers, casually firing off 50 or 100 "shotgun" emails to dealers in several neighboring states, but harboring no real intention to actually buy anytime soon. By contrast, I wanted to make it clear to this dealer that I was interested and ready to sign the first good deal that I was offered.
Then I waited.
Within two hours of sending my request for a quote I got a personal response (via both email and a phone message) from the dealer's Internet Sales Manager (who I will call Blake), with an estimate that was within $100 of my planned initial, lowball, no-way-will-they-bite offer, and more than $900 below Edmunds' Typical Market Value. I replied immediately to schedule a final test drive the following Saturday.
As soon as my foot hit the pavement, a perky sales guy appeared, eager to engage me and get a deal going. I cordially shook his hand and told him I had an appointment with Blake. He was visibly disappointed, as this meant the sale would go to Blake, and perhaps additionally because it was a discounted web-sale, but he remained polite, and invited me in for coffee while I waited for Blake.
When he appeared, we went out to look over the two colors I was considering, he explained the various features and options, and we went for a final test drive. He only casually asked whether I had a trade-in (I didn't), and seemed not to care that I had already arranged financing through my credit union.
When we got back to the dealership, he crunched the numbers one final time; they were in line with my own, so we shook hands and got the paperwork going while the car was washed and detailed. I spent ten minutes with the Finance & Insurance Manager, who quickly prepared the title and lien forms, and of course offered me several overpriced sealcoats, upholstery treatments, etc., which I politely declined. I wrote a personal check for the entire amount, signed the forms, and a customer service rep. soon escorted me to the auto bay, where my gleaming new ride was waiting. She spent several minutes instructing me on all the controls and features of my new car, and I soon glided out the big overhead doors. The entire process took little more than an hour.
There are several key points that I believe contributed to a smooth and mutually beneficial transaction:
1) Knowledge is power. I was prepared: I had done all my research–on Edmunds.com and other sites–I knew what I wanted, and was ready to buy. When I casually mentioned to Blake that I had recently seen an Asian press release announcing that another model that I had considered–and which was currently well-stocked on their lot–was about to be discontinued, he shook his head with surprise. "Really? Geez, you people learn stuff on the Internet MONTHS before the manufacturers tell US anything ..."
I also had in my hand a 1" three-ring binder whose contents were organized by topic tabs, and which held all the information I needed to negotiate a traditional new-car purchase: MSRP and options prices from the manufacturer, invoice and TMV from Edmunds.com, my various offers I was willing to make, notes on negotiating, etc.. If Blake had handed me over to one of the usual car salesmen, and had they started in with the games for which they are unfortunately so well known, I was fully prepared to quickly negotiate an attractive deal or walk out.
2) My inquiry letter made it clear that I was ready to buy.
At one point, when the deal was already signed and I felt Blake might be more candid with me, I asked him about their Internet sales. He said that the dealership previously had contracted with a well-known online car-buying service which boasts the ability to connect buyers with local dealers selling at invoice. The dealership paid a $20 'prospect' fee to the service for each customer it sent their way. Unfortunately, few actually bought, partly because of disreputable claims made by the service. For example, the online service claimed that "local dealers are waiting to offer you a new Toyota Prius at INVOICE!" As anyone knows, the Prius was at that time a highly sought-after model, with a 4- to 8-month waiting list, and because of the high demand and low supply, was selling for full list price, sometimes more. When eager Internet shoppers arrived to see the Prius and were informed of the actual selling price, they were understandably upset–not with the misleading car-buying service, but with the dealer! Needless to say, the dealership quit using the disreputable service.
I suppose when Blake originally responded with his excellent price quote, I could have begun firing off a bunch of emails to other dealers, to see if they would beat his price, then use those quotes as ammunition against Blake's. But rather than wasting his time and mine, I instead opted to reward his promptness and good price by scheduling a final test ride and purchase.
Blake said that in general, about 40% of the emails received through the dealership's own website are now converted into sales, so he must be doing something right.
3) Most car shoppers know that the end of month is a good time to buy, as dealerships are eager to meet their sales goals. Even better is the last week of the last month of the year; the sweet spot between Christmas and New Year's. Not coincidentally, this is when Toyota and many other carmakers run their year-end sales events.
Blake claimed the price we'd agreed on was 'down into the holdback' (below invoice), but my numbers indicate we were still $180 above that. In other words, I believe he was still garnering the full holdback ($335, by my informed estimates) plus $180. Regardless, I perhaps could have chiseled him for a deeper discount, but the car I was buying is fairly low-priced to begin with (under $18,000), is in relatively short supply, and according to my research, currently offers no other factory rebates or incentives to the dealer. If shopping instead for a plentiful car like a Camry, Accord, or a Focus Sedan, or buying a higher-margin car like a Lexus or SUV, one could reasonably expect a deeper discount.
I also feel that every auto dealer, like any other business, deserves to make SOME kind of profit margin, and I was not determined to cut him to the bone on price. Instead, I wanted to award that profit to a deserving dealer that seems to be working hard to polish the tarnished image of sleazy car dealers.
In addition, much of the credit for this smooth and painless experience must go to the dealership:
4) They had a well-designed website, making it easy to browse their inventory, and the Internet Sales Manager responded very promptly. He was ready when I got there, the purchase process went smoothly, and they seemed intent on making it easy to buy.
5) They quickly shot me what I consider to be a very good price, right from the start, and then stuck to it. They played no games with accessories, options, hidden fees, or confusing financing schemes, and there was no protracted dickering or shuttle diplomacy with imaginary sales managers while I fidgeted in the glass cage. They were straight-up, honest, and professional. If you instead find yourself in a den of thieves, it's true that your most valuable asset is your feet: walk out and find a good dealer who still has some self-respect. They are out there, and you can reward them with your purchase.
After a few weeks with my new car, I am enjoying it immensely, and still feel it was well worth the money and the time I spent researching its purchase. As with all my previous USED cars, I intend to enjoy my NEW ride for a very long time; with proper care and maintenance, I fully expect to drive this car for over ten years and 200,000 miles.
The only difference is that this time I get to enjoy that new-car smell ...
Congrats on your new purchase. Sounded like you handled the deal on your end with a lot of class, and the same could be said of the dealer.
P.S....enjoy that new car smell
tidester, host
anyways, congrats, and enjoy your new car!!
-thene
It was nice from the standpoint of not being jerked around, no games, and using the research I did on the net, I felt pretty good about the whole thing. And considering that my & I were not ready to face the whole car-buying process and dreaded what we thought was going to happen, we both were impressed and relieved that it was as easy as it was.
Dave
That part says it all. Thanks for an excellent post!!
But ask youself this question: what kind of person would spend $80k on a ride that is used? If I can spend 80k, I should certainly be able to spend 100k? If I was spending that much, why would I care which amount it is? The answer is pretty simple because no one NEEDS a vehicle in that range. Thus, you are talking about a person who cannot control their own emotions and feelings? And who actually lacks the means to spend the few extra grand.
Some people will simply buy the fanciest set of wheels they can NOT afford... which is very sad in a country with a negative savings rate.
I was surfing eBay motors and stumbled across a used 05 Porsche Carrera GT with something like 1500 miles give or take. Bidding started in the $330K range. When I looked at the dealer's available finance terms I saw that you could have the car for something like $2600/month for 144 months at 8.9% APR. Of course, that rate works only if you make a $95K down-payment and does not include applicable taxes. It's hard to believe that anyone with that kind of money and minimal financial sense would contemplate such an arrangement, but a fool and his money...
Gogiboy
That is a Sub 300K car all day long.
RE the used 80,000 dollar Range Rover: I sold that Range and another Land Rover to the CEO of a major company. He bought the Range for himself and the Disco for his daughter. He paid cash for both along with two trade ins and could easily have paid full list new car price for each if he wanted.
You don't get to be CEO by being dumb though, well there are some exeptions to that rule I guess but in general you don't, he knows Euor cars depreciate rapidly from new. Why spend 20-30% more then he needs to for the same car.
I guess when I say "relatively short supply" I am comparing the Matrix to other, more common models.
For example, my shopping showed that dealers in my area typically stocked no more than about ten Matrix; some even less. By contrast, those same dealers had in inventory as many as 40 Camrys and over 50 Corollas! Nearby Ford dealers had 20-30 Focus Sedans on the lots.
When you have only ten Matrix to consider, and after dismissing several undesirable option and color choices, this can easily narrow your selection down to only one or two examples configured the way you want. Laws of supply-and-demand being what they are, that simply doesn't put you in a very good position from which to negotiate a screamin' deal ...
All in all, I think I got a pretty good price for a great car.
I wonder what the wait time on one of suckers is? I bet most dealers do not have them in stock? And yes, there is one born every minute....
Is that what you tell your new car customers? :P
Someone buying a 25k vehicle 1 or 2 years old is doing so for the same reason someone buying a 80k vehicle is doing so. So they won't have to take the big depreciation hit.
Why spend 20-30% more? Most people feel a newer car is more reliable and that they won't be buying someone elses problem.
1. I make more money on used cars.
2. The typical used car buyer tends to go from greeting to sale quicker.
3. There is no CSI to worry about with used cars.
4. Low mileage used cars have been through their shakedown period already and have fewer problems out of the box.
One year isn't going to save you 20-30% on most used cars. Some domestics will depreciate that fast, at least from the artificaly high MSRP they have, and some european cars will depreciate that fast but not all. At two years you will see that 20-30% on a lot more cars but unless it was a relatively expensive, it is all relative afterall and anything sub $45k is not that expensive, vehicle to begin with then it is not much in gross dollars.
Whenever we have traded in a vehicle on a NEW vehicle, the salesman told us they make more money on the trade in than the new one.
That is why one local DC dealer sells 10 used Grand Caravans to every new one and always has 3 or 4 times as many used Grand Caravans on the lot than new.
That is the only good reason! There is not as much competition on used cars and that is why you enjoy additional profits. And it is much more difficult to shop used vehicles compared to brand new ones where the exact value can be based on MSRP/invoice. No one has the exactly the same unit and they are all different.
One year isn't going to save you 20-30% on most used cars.
Really? I buy one of your vehicles and then trade it back in a year, you will not knock 20-30% off my original purchase price?
There is actually more competition on used cars then new cars. One new cars you are only competing with other franchised dealers for a particular car but with used cars you are competing with any dealer who happens to have that car and sometimes private parties as well.
You might not be able to look up invoice on a used car, and by the way negotiating off of invoice is a very bad way to negotiate a new car, but you can get a good idea of aproximate tradein, wholesale, private party, retail value for a used car and use that in negotiation.
Most used car inventory is online and a lot of times new car inventory is not. You can do a search for the particular model you are looking at and get a range of values for 50-75 miles around your location. Elminate any cars at shady dealers with the WE CAN GET YOU APPROVED lines and then go from there.
I make more money on used cars because that is how our pay plan is set up. The dealership makes a lot of money on new cars but I see very little of it so I concentrate on used cars.
New cars are almost perfect commodities but used cars are all different... miles, dings, etc. This makes it harder to compare and compete. Agreed: invoice is goofy number made up to pretend that it is a proxy for cost. Many vehicle sell for invoice or lower today...
New car inventories are not online for higher end makes like LR but they are all online for Honda, Toyota, GM, Ford, etc. Yes, this makes it harder to create competition, the cost of finding alternative goes up rather significantly for the consumer.
I make more money on used cars because that is how our pay plan is set up.
This has been an ongoing trend for over a decade: it is driven by competition that is fueled by the Internet enabling consumers...
Ever see a day where consumer information catches up to where getting a price close to actual dealer cost is just as easy on a used car as on new? Have you noticed the margin on used car sales slipping any due to internet, information more readily available via internet?
It is very difficult to compare used vehicles when trying to guesstimate its worth. This obviously works to the dealerships advantage.
To answer my own question, I would think having a web site where wholesale listings are given for free to the customers may make a difference in sale prices. Edmunds TMV for used car retail is really not much help. An acceptable(to dealership) price for the consumer to have as a goal would seem to be more in the lines of dealer trade-in.
I totally disagree....simply because each used car is an individual. Looking at an auction report is almost worthless because you don't have any clue as to the actual condition of the car... You have no idea how the car was driven, serviced, abused, smoked in, body work, paint work, etc. What about regional price differences? I can see people coming in saying "manheim in miami sold my rear wheel drive, white car for $xxxxx and the guy lives in Boston where RWD white cars are as popular as a snake at the garden party...New cars are easy, they are all the same.
When I look at 2-3 old lease returns at Manheim, they go within a very narrow range. Given that range, most folks can gauge a reasonable range for Accord EX-L! Have you tried that at a dealership near you?
And I certainly agree that new cars are much easier!
Dealers may not like it if everyone knew what their vehicle was worth at auction but it would certainly stop the scalping that often takes places at some dealerships.
I live in the Washington DC area and I am shopping for a Honda. I have sent out a few requests for quotes to dealers around the beltway, and I am getting some good responses. None of them are anything special, but most of them are within 500 of each other.
However, some salespeople just simply refuse to give me a quote, or their quote is so high that I would not consider working with them. And these are the most obnoxious and arrogant salespeople around. They call me or email twice a day with the usual crap. But, what pisses me off is that every single one of them told me to bring them my lowest quote and they will try to match it. All I want to say to them “You are slimy SOB, you are playing games with me by refusing to show me your price and in addition you want me to help you to screw another honest salesman over who worked hard to earn this deal the honest way!”
My fellow internet shoppers, please don’t hor(?sp) yourselves out to these sleazebags for a $100. These people are so sleazy they will suck the life out of you for that 100 (no punt intended), and you will probably get screwed out of more money than you saved. If a salesman is refusing to give you a quote, buy from the one that does. Please reward honest upfront behavior with your business, because if you don’t, all of us will loose in the long run. The honest salespeople will stop giving us quotes and only the sleazebags will be left standing.
Hosts, if I have crossed the line, I apologias in advance.
1. It is not worth their time to gather information and give a quote because they will get very few closings based upon this.
2. If they give their quote someone else will beat it by $5 and their time for getting this quote would have been waisted.
3. If a person would want a quote on an item like an auto just go to the dealer.
If you are looking to save money take some time and go to each dealer and be truthfull and and eventualy you will be rewarded with an acceptable price.
either that, or that $50 is REALLY important to you...
-thene
Criswell gave me the lowest quote, however, when I pressed him on availability and pricing of certain accessories, he didn’t reply. I heard a lot praise here for Sport Honda in Silver Spring. I found the salesperson to be honest and easy to deal with, but her quote was only average. Heritage store in Baltimore also gave me an aggressive quote. Like I said, all of MD dealers quotes were within 500 of each other. Now, VA stores on the other hand
Price Matching claims in this business (and many others) are just a way to try to drag customers into the showroom. Be very careful because some dealerships will say anything just to get you there. Once you are there, all gloves are off and they will claim that price was "a mistake". :mad: You will love that after you had driven 50 miles!
Over the years, I have had a few places promise me to match pricing but none have yet delivered!
NO Quote? Fine, move on and keep expanding your search up/down 95!
BTW: not too many consumers will be swayed by 0.2-0.4% discount to stray from their local dealership... maybe if it is the next one over.
Therefore, 100 you save today will cost you hundreds tomorrow.
my two cents...
-thene
If you are looking to save money take some time and go to each dealer and be truthfull and and eventualy you will be rewarded with an acceptable price.
You are out of your mind? Do you think visiting is going to help anything? That is a VERY costly suggestion that will result in you settling very quickly and typically not cheaply. How many dealers would come to my door if I invited them to come over and make me some offers? Do NOT move from you desk without a reasonable price already in hand!
Truthful? Yes, but do not disclose too much information about yourself unless you think it is relavant in helping you make the deal.
I wish fitzmall sells Honda
I had a bad experience at Pohanka Honda in Marlow Heights in 1995.
If you know exactly what you want and exactly how much you are willing to pay, any store should be OK.