Oil change/fiascos

gregoryc1 · November 2004

The rings on the pistons could be locked in the lands of the pistion causing "blow-by", pressurizing the crankcase, and forcing the oil out through the PCV system. Take the vehicle to a good mechanic. There are chemicals that can be introduced into the cylinder, through the spark plug hole to desolve the carbon in the ring area, and free the rings in the piston lands. In addition, there are chemicals that can be introduced into the engine oil to help this process. A good mechanic will know how to accomplish this task.

isellhondas · November 2004

Would be HIGHLY unlikely!

Mr_Shiftright · November 2004

Yep, frozen rings could cause blow-by, but if you have frozen rings that bad, nothing in a can is likely to fix them. Worth a try I guess, but I wouldn't be very optimistic, especially on a high mileage engine. I've never seen a can fix engine damage, but I have seen additives work on injectors, etc.

I do recall however, that some Cadillac dealers were trying to decarbonize rings on some Northstar engines. I also recall that this didn't work very often, but maybe some of you have been following that more closely.

todd53 · November 2004

I have a 2004 Passat 2.0 TDI with 15k miles. For the first 2 oil changes (at 5k and 10k) I used Rotella 5W40 synthetic. But after reading this forum, I have decided to play it safe and begin running VW recommended oil. I went to my local VW dealer, who tried to sell me Castrol 5W40 synthetic 505.00 for $7 per quart. They did not even have 505.01 in stock. So instead, I went online and purchased Motul 505.01 for $28 per 5 liters. Hopefully my engine will forgive me for running the Rotella for a combined 10k miles. Anyway, if anyone is interested, I purchased the Motul from http://store.yahoo.com/ltbmotorsport
Hopefully they will start making this stuff available in stores...

wtd44 · November 2004

You might want to look into Redline products:

http://www.redlineoil.com

I do not know if Redline claims to be 505.01 certified/qualified.

gregoryc1 · November 2004

WHY? I have seen this accomplished!

gregoryc1 · November 2004

If it has been determined through a Compression Test that the engine is suffering from frozen piston rings, the following process might help the condition. (Some relatively new vehicles are suffering from this problem at low mileage).

PROCESS:
    1.) Remove all the Spark Plugs from the engine
    2.) Disable the ignition system
    3.) Attach a small dia. hose to a small funnel
    4.) Purchase some penetrating oil / carbon solvent from an auto parts store. There are many products on the market.
    5.) Pour some product into each cylinder. Be generous with the product. Let it sit in the cylinder and soak. It might be a good idea to let it sit over night.
    6.) Crank the engine over and introduce more product into the cylinders. Let it sit again for a period of time.
    7.) When you feel the that process has been completed, drain the engine oil, change the filter and refill the crankcase with clean oil.
    8.) Install the spark plugs, and re-connect the ignition system. Put an additive in the fuel tank that is designed to dissolve carbon in the combustion chamber.
    9.) Start the engine, and let the engine idle till it reaches operating temperature.
   10.) Take the vehicle out for a drive on the highway at normal speeds.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2004

WEll I suppose with such a drastic condition as frozen piston rings you wouldn't even need a compression test. The blow-by would be significant. You'd be driving a steam locomotive.

I have to say I have never seen blow-by cured from a can. Best I've ever seen a can do is clean up a dirty injector and occasionally free up a sticky hydraulic lifter.

But again, faced with an engine tear-down, I'd even pay a shaman to dance around my car.

jlflemmons · November 2004

Back in the day when the EPA wasn't looking over our shoulders, we would take a carbon loaded engine to operating temp and start pouring ATF down the carb. Smoked like a sonofagun, keep pouring until the engine just choked and died. Let it sit for a couple of hours, then fire it up, get it on the highway and air it out. Sometimes a carbon dome would drop out of the head and sound like a rock bouncing around in there. But when all was said and done, car ran better, started better, and no pinging.

I would not even consider this on the newer hyper-controlled fuel and ignition system engines, but it sure made those old V8's that the little old ladies puttered around town in run better!

isellhondas · November 2004

I think it would be highly doubtful a car would have "frozen rings". Even so, with the accessibility or lack of on the modern cars, I have to wonder how this product could even be poured into the spark plug holes?

Maybe on a Model A?

isellhondas · November 2004

I've seen this done with good results. Using water works even better but there are risks involved. Risks like shattering a piston!

alcan · November 2004

Actually, very common with Saturns and to a lesser degree with Cadillac Northstars. Here's an excerpt from the GM TSB addressing it:

Higher Than Expected Oil Consumption (Clean Piston Rings) #02-06-01-009C - (Oct 23, 2003)

1996-2000 Cadillac Concours
1996-2002 Cadillac Eldorado
1996-2003 Cadillac DeVille, Seville

with 4.6L Engine (VINs Y, 9 -- RPOs LD8, L37)

This bulletin is being revised to add parts information. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 02-06-01-009B (Section 06 - Engine).

VIN Breakpoints
Model Year Model VIN Breakpoint

1996-2002 All Above All
2003 DeVille Prior to 3U213641
2003 Seville Prior to 3U215818

Condition
Some customers may comment on higher than expected oil consumption. The typical customer with this condition comments on consumption in the range of 0.946L (1 qt) of oil used in 1600-2250 km (1000-1400 mi) of operation. The oil consumption rate and possible oil consumption areas, as per Corporate Bulletin #01-06-01-011 dated March, 2001, should be verified prior to performing the ring cleaning procedure below. The standard for acceptable oil economy and the method for determining oil economy are outlined in Corporate Bulletin #01-06-01-011.

Oil Consumption:

The accepted rate of oil consumption for engines used in the vehicles referenced is 0.946L (1 qt) in 3200 km (2000 mi). This rate only applies to personal use vehicles, under warranty, maintained in accordance with the appropriate maintenance schedule, with less than 58,000 km (36,000 mi), or 80,450 km (50,000 mi) for Cadillac, driven at legal speeds in an unloaded (for trucks) condition.

Cause
Although there are several reasons for less than expected oil economy described in Corporate Bulletin #01-06-01-011, one area not covered is reduced sealing ability of the rings. Through normal usage, combustion chamber deposits may build up to the point that the movement of the rings could become restricted and prevent the rings from wiping all of the oil off the cylinder walls and allowing it to be burned in the combustion process.

Yada, yada, yada.......

wtd44 · November 2004

But what about Saturns? I have a Vue, 2003, with the 4 cylinder engine.

imidazol97 · November 2004

My cure to try would be the old standard of Rislone, one quarter when new oil is put in. Or I add after a quart is used. I run about 500 miles and change oil.

It's another additive, so save the flames. It helped on a car I had back in the 80s. Yeah, I know this anecdotal evidence. But it worked.

For a couple of bucks, it's a cheap try compared to alternatives that ineffective additives or expensive.

alcan · November 2004

Hasn't surfaced yet on newer ones. If you look at a piston with the oil ring removed, there are small drainback holes in the base of the groove to allow oil scrape-off to return to the pan via the inside of the piston. The oil ring seizing has been attributed to the holes being too small in diameter, clogging easily and allowing oil to pool around the ring expander rails. If it sits there long enough it'll overheat and start oxidizing, forming gum and varnish which sticks the ring. Compression rings aren't affected, so a compression test will yield normal results, but it'll smoke like anything. A Saturn dealer tech friend indicated that newer engines have the piston drainback holes enlarged. Should eliminate the problem.

wtd44 · November 2004

This seems to give strength to the idea that one ought not to buy the first year model of new vehicles. Anyway, I thank you for the information. I hope my 2003 Vue is a late enough model to be beyond the oil ring gumming problem. I am now using Havoline and Chevron oil for all my vehicles, so oil quality should not be an issue.

isellhondas · November 2004

I wouldn't have believed it but Rislone actually works. I've seen the results myself.

imidazol97 · November 2004

I've been told the additives in regular oils are much better than they were, so the edge that Rislone has as a one-time additive is less. I was told that changing your regular oil at low mileage, say 500-1000 miles in regular driving, less in short trip driving, could do the same.

I personally use the Rislone as I do fuel additives on a once-in-awhile basis. When I add it at half-quart in new oil, the oil gets dirty much faster because it's working. I sometimes add it when the oil is at 2000 miles and down a quart or less, drive a few hundred miles and change the oil to get rid of the gunk it picks out.

Good luck to you with cleaning the rings.

jlflemmons · November 2004

Used it on a Buick 3.8L after a timing chain replacement. The oil pump on the 3.8 is in the timing chain cover and must be packed with vaseline to get it to prime. If the engine is hot (like when you start the sucker and it doesn't pick up the prime!} You can repack the oil pump with axle grease to prime. Then add a quart of Rislone to break down the grease, let it idle for a few minutes and drain the crankcase. Crude, but effective with no long term affect on the engine.

I hate that stupid oil pump on the 3.8L. Had one wear out the housing and required a new timing cover. The oil pocket for the gears was mis-machined, jambed the oil pump when the engine fired, and snapped the end off the camshaft as it drove the oil pump through the distributor shaft. Whoever designed that pump set up was doing serious drugs.

wtd44 · November 2004

...but it should never be taken internally! >;o]

craign · December 2004

Hello. New to this site. I recently purchased a 2000 VW Passat Wagon. It is time for a changing of the oil. I'm looking for recommendations as where to bring it. I don't have the resources to do it myself. Should I bring it to a VW dealer? A Jiffy Lube(probably not)? An authorized foreign car service place?
I appreciate any advice.

altair4 · December 2004

Personally, I would not take my Passat to a Jiffy Lube. I've read too many posts on too many forums to feel comfortable with this approach - they can't seem to deal with the engine belly pan.

So, that leaves either the dealer or and Indy. If your indy works regularly on VW's and Audi's, that would be a good choice.

For now, I'm using my dealer for oil changes (I opt not to fight for warranty coverage later, should there be a problem).

Which ever way you go, since you've just bought the car, I'd ask the tech to make sure that all of the fasteners are in place on that belly pan and to replace any missing ones. It's not fun to have the thing drop down onto the road surface while travelling at interstate speeds!

craign · December 2004

Thank you very much. That's what I was leading towards. The dealer quoted me a price of $36.00 for a standard oil change, w/fluid top-offs, and a filter.
I am really enjoying the Passat wagon(knock on wood). On a side note, I recently changed two bulbs(headlight and directional) and couldn't believe how easy the access was to them.

altair4 · December 2004

Was that a VW deaelrship offering that $36 oil change? I ask since VWoA recently issued a letter that strongly recommends oils that meet their specification (VW spec 502.00) for the 1.8T engine. Most of these are 5w-40 multigrade oils, with a smattering of 5w-30 and one 0w-40. ALL ARE SYNTHETIC OILS.

If you are going to the dealership, consider bringing your own synthetic oil with you. I do and my dealer doesn't mind. They charge about $15 for the labor, plus the filter, oil disposal, etc. All told, my last oil change was about $45, using approved synth oil. You can find a list of VW-approved oils here:

www.vw.com/SP/pdf/oilchart.pdf

But be warned, some of these oils are not readily available (I've never seen Elf or Total oil in the US). You should be able to find Mobil 1 0w-40 at some Walmarts and some auto parts stores. You should be able to find Valvoline Synpower 5w-40 at NAPA stores (you can order it - Part #966)

And finally, Valvoline's website DOES NOT show VW spec 502.00 approval for Synpower 5w-30, despite it being included on the approved list. Good luck!

PS: If you have the 1.8T engine, there has been a recent TSB that has changed the oil filter to a larger one (formerly used only on VW diesel engines). Make sure you get the larger filter.

micweb · December 2004

Dealers were partly responsible for the recent 1.8T woes, since they were using 5-30 non-synthetic oil even though the manual calls for 5-40 VW spec oil (but fails to add that this is, by default, full synthetic oil).

So I second the last poster's recommendation to take in your own oil (or at least insist on the Castrol Syntec 5-40 that is available to dealers - this usually bumps the oil change price to $90). And I also second the recommendation to remind the dealer about the TSB that upgrades the filter size. It's amazing how many dealers (or at least the service advisors) don't keep track of these changes. Call me paranoid, but until enough time has elapsed for all dealers to wake up to the importance of the manual's requirements, I'd double check them.

My own humble Golf 2.0 requires 5-40 oil. When I asked the dealer, they said 5-30 is ok too. Fortunately I used Mobil 1 full synthetic, which although it doesn't satisfy the weight range requirement, isn't going to have sludging problems (and of course the normally aspirated engine is easier on the oil than the turbo versions). So obviously there has been a disconnect between what VW puts in its manuals, and what the dealers have been doing. Which surprises me.

fish8 · December 2004

I thought I would share this short story. I was at Walmart looking at their Mobil 1 oils and couldn't find 0w 40. A Walmart associate came out and asked if I needed any help. I advised him that i was looking for a specific oil for my car. He inquired about which car I own and said they didn't carry 0w40. But he did say that a Bently Rep (My VW dealer is also a Bentley dealer) came to Walmart the other day and bought up all of his Synthetic oil in a certain grade. Does it seem odd that a BENTLEY dealer is shopping for their oil at WALMART????

krzyss · December 2004

Mobil 1 in Walmart is the same Mobil 1 in Auto Zone or anywhere else.

Krzys

PS I would imagine buying bulk would be even cheaper.

altair4 · December 2004

What would be really interesting would be to see what the mark-up was between the Walmart shelf and the Bentley customer!

krzyss · December 2004

1000% ;-)

Krzys

driftracer · December 2004

middle of THAT transaction!

600kgolfgt · December 2004

Do not, I repeat, do not take your Passat to any Jiffy Lube or quick lube place. In addition to the VW spec synthetic oil that your car needs, it also requires the factory Mann oil filter as well. The filter contains a check valve that not only acts to regulate your engine's oil pressure, but also prevents dirty engine oil from going back into your engine once you turn off the ignition.

The oil filters these quick lube places use (Fram, Purolator, etc) are basically junk as far as your car is concerned, and should be avoided at all costs.

allm · December 2004

I to have been taking my Passat 1.8 turbo engine to the dealership for all my oil changes. According to the invoice the dealership uses Castrol 10W30, which is not the recommended oil. I have 45,000 miles on my car, and the engine has developed a sludge problem. The problem is so severe that the engine needs to be replaced. Volkswagen refuses to pay for the repair because I missed one oil change. But they failed to tell me that they were not using the oil that is recommended in the manual. This surprises me that the authorize dealerships do not follow the manual recommendations, but holds the owner responsible for this error.

fish8 · December 2004

I would call VWoA customer service and report your problem. So, you went 10K miles between oil changes once?

fish8 · December 2004

I guess my point was not that Walmart sells Mobile 1. I realize Mobile 1 is Mobile 1 no matter where you buy it. I just thought it was odd that a Bentley Dealer would be getting there oil supply from a Walmart and not through buying in bulk.

Mr_Shiftright · December 2004

Well that's what Sam Walton would have done!

wtd44 · December 2004

Is Redline polyol based synthetic on the VW list?

altair4 · December 2004

No.

List is here:

http://www.vw.com/SP/pdf/oilchart.pdf

desertrat5 · December 2004

I have both a Buick Ultra and a Pontiac Bonneville SLE. The Buick forum is not very active and I have not received any feedback on the Pontiac forum which is fairly active. So I am posting my question here.

I just had a LOF and engine detail on my wife's 2000 Ultra. Now the DIC shows 129 psi oil pressure regardless of engine RPM. I have never seen it that high and I have never seen it rock solid unchanging. Is it possible that water from the engine detail has messed with a connection somewhere (all the other DIC indicators seem to be working okay)? Or could they have done something in the oil change to make the pressure that high?

My 04 Bonneville SLE has a gage which typically shows between 60 and 80 psi oil pressure. The gage does sweep from 0 to 120 back to 0 at startup before registering the actual pressure.

Thanks in advance for any info.

Bob

jlflemmons · December 2004

If water gets into the connection at the pressure sending unit you can get a short to ground and peg the reading low, or open and peg high. At least I think that is the way it swings. Been a while, but I saw this before on an Olds engine. Find the pressure sending unit and make sure the connection is dry and tight. The DIC can only display what it is receiving, or as we have said about computers for years ...

"Garbage in, Garbage Out."

desertrat5 · December 2004

The other interesting item is that the DIC also says "Normal" right next to the 129 psi reading.

Is there a check valve in the filter that could be plugged and drive the pressure that high? I know some filters have such valves to keep the oil from all running out of the engine after shut down.

scottinky · December 2004

I took my 03 Pathfinder to my dealer to have the oil changed yesterday. Picked it up in the afternoon, drove it home. Went out last night. Upon returning home, noticed a big puddle of oil in the garage. I didn't see it when I left, but it was there. My round trip was about 6 miles. I turn off the motor, and watch oil drip from the filter location. Crap. I pop the hood, check the stick , I have maybe 1 quart of oil left. So, I add 1/2 a quart of what I had in the garage, and pulled in. This morning, all the oil had drained out, no surprise. I call my dealer and inform them of what happened. My dealer rocks! Sure, they made a mistake, but my motor didn't blow, whew. within an hour, I had a flatbed tow truck, and a guy from the dealership at my house with cleanup supplies and a rental car. Unfortunately, i won't get my truck back till monday cuz there are no mechanics there. However, this dealer has always taken care of their customers, and I am amazed at the service. The general sales manager took it upon himself to take care of the matter. All I can do now is wait and see what the problem was.

jlflemmons · December 2004

It is entirely possible that there is more than one sending unit. If not, could be a guage failure although these days that is pretty rare. Would be a good idea to have the pressure checked to ensure what is really there. 129psi is way over the top. I doubt that is a true reading.

Jim

wtd44 · December 2004

Trouble like that is never pleasant, but it is great to hear a story about a dealership that reacted the way yours did. Let us know what is found. I'll guess the seal on the filter was defective, or you suffered from the two-rubber-ring syndrome.

taft4 · December 2004

A friend recently gave me the owners manual of a 1927 Packard straight 8 (384 cu. in eng.) that was her late father-in-laws when long ago he purchased the car new. Talk about oil changes, in those days it was really something. Thought you might be interested in seeing the details which are: (1) Remove crankcase oil drain plug and drain out old oil; (2) Replace drain plug and pour in through oil filler one gallon kerosene; (3) With ignition off turn motor over a few times by hand or with starter to clear oil lines of sediment, then drain, removing cover from under oil pump; (4) Remove oil pump screen, clean and replace; (5) Replace drain plug and cover and refill crankcase to level with fresh cylinder oil. It goes on to say the motor needs about 2 gallons of oil, and not to overfill it, but if overfilling, do not overfill by more then one gallon.

The instructions go on to say Packard suggests the owner use a high-grade medium gas engine cylinder oil and in the Detroit area they use oil with a cold test of under 25 degrees fahrenheit. Oil changes should be every 1000 miles in the summer and every 500 in the winter and the dealer can only charge for the oil, but the labor is free.

This was the warranty on the car: The Packard Motor Car Company has warranted that for a period of ninety days from the date of delivery to the purchaser it will replace, free of charge, any part claimed within that period to be defective and found by the company to be so upon examination, provided such part is returned to the company within that period for credit or replacement. Such free replacement does not include transportation charges to and from the Packard factory, nor the cost of installing the new part. Tires, rims, batteries, speed instruments and other accessories, being subject to warranties of their respective manufacturers, are excepted from the warranty.

I know this is not the focus of this board but I found the oil change information interesting, and compared to todays situations, rather humorous.

wtd44 · December 2004

Every 500 to 1000 miles-- that's the killer! Let's be thankful that motor oils are now much "cleaner" than back then, and that the kerosene flush is not needed.

fish8 · December 2004

VERY interesting!!! Thanks for sharing. Cars have come a LONG way since the 20's.

garland · December 2004

VW has lowered the cost of their Castrol synthetic 505.01 engine oil to $4.95 a quart. For the TDI engine and the 1.8 engine. This should lower the cost of an oil change......thank goodness.!! GRB

corsicachevy · January 2005

I recently purchased a 2004 Oldsmobile Alero with the 3.4V6 and GM's oil life monitor system.

The car came from a very reputable dealer with a great reputation for service. According to their records, they changed the oil before delivering the car to me. This is corroborated by the static sticker on my windshield.

So, you can imagine my surprise when, after only 1200 miles of driving, my "change oil" light came on. I checked to oil to see if it was low - it wasn't. In fact, the oil "looked" fine to me. To make matters worse, I drive like a little old lady. The engine has never turned over 3500rpm on my watch.

Has anybody else had this same experience? Should I get my oil changed?

imidazol97 · January 2005

The mechanic probably didn't resest the oil change timer when they changed the oil. You probably want to change the oil at an earlier mileage than the timer would indicate yourself for the good of your engine.

Check your owners manual about how to reset the timer.

fish8 · January 2005

My wife's 2002 Tahoe has the same oil life monitor system in it. I would call the dealer and see what they advise you to do. They may tell you to reset the oil monitor and drive until it tells you to change the oil again. Or just change the oil at 4-5K miles and at that time reset the oil monitor again.

In my wife's Tahoe you reset the monitor as follows:

Turn key to on position (car not cranked), depress the gas pedal, I believe, 3-5 times within the span of five seconds. This should reset the oil monitor. Read your owners manual just in case your car varies from my wife's. Good luck!!

Oil change/fiascos

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