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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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Comments

  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    If anything kills the manual it'll be the auto makers with thier let's-make-every-vehicle-exactly-the-same approach to streamlining the manufacturing process and bossting profits.

    Not necessarily true.

    IMO, there is no future for mannual. The whole transmission thing is about torque/power opimization. In the past, human opimization is indeed better than computer optimization. In the future there will be new types of design, especially for electric-motor driven cars.

    Ever heard of dual-motor style transmission that adjust ratio by electromagnetic means? (Check out Nexxt Drive)You know what, it is continuous and requires no torque converter. There will be a time computer opimization out-performs human optimization in transmission, just as in many other areas.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "Ever heard of dual-motor style transmission that adjust ratio by electromagnetic means?"

    Wow, that sounds like a hoot to drive! ;) Maybe I should sell my 911 6-speed and invest the money until that baby makes into a future Porsche offering. Hopefully it won't crash during periods of high sun spot activity.

    Perhaps in your opinion, there is no future for a manual transmission. Perhaps you see no future for sex, since that's a horribly inefficient process of procreation?

    If base level "efficiency" was the top priority of every car buyer, Porsche would not exist, period. As it is, they are the most profitable car company on the planet. So I think sex is safe too, thank goodness. :)
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    No, I can't say as I've ever heard of that, but it sounds like another item that ends up being the weakest link in the driveline. 100 years of building auto trannies and the industry still can't figure out how to build one that will last. As long as the manual is available, that's what I'll have.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    "If you have an aggressive driving style with a manual, you'd more than likely have the same driving style with an auto as well and you'd just end up burning more fuel."

    Dunno, automatics always upshift for me. Besides, I'm falling asleep out of boredom... no mood for speed. And lately manufacturers have been deciding that manual drivers are all crazy, so they gear the cars for speed. Even without that, automatics have always seemed to have wider gears... or is that just an illusion?

    And someone else mentioned emissions...

    The part of emissions-control that manuals are bad at, is unspent fuel. An automatic can tell the engine to cut the fuel right before it upshifts, but on a manual it doesn't get any warning. You can get flames coming out your exhaust by dropping your revs really fast, like by upshifting - bad emissions there. That's why a lot of new cars, like the Focus and Civic, hang on to revs between shifts even in manual versions. Very annoying if you're trying to shift smoothly, but (somehow) it reduces fuel being spit into the atmosphere.
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,825
    How will emissions control kill the manual?

    My crystal ball isn't working, so I have no idea what the future holds... but if you want an example of an attack on the manual via emissions controls, consider OBD-II when it became law in 1995/96:

    One requirement is efficient misfire detection. Only a percent or so of misfiring is allowed, above that the computer has to throw a trouble code and send the car to the shop. Misfire = hydrocarbon emissions, see.

    How is misfire measured? Via the crankshaft sensor... each time a cylinder fires, there's a tiny bit of acceleration on the crankshaft; no acceleration = misfire.

    This works "good" on the autobahn, not so good on rutted dirt roads, on account of the irregular wheel motion beats on the crankshaft via the driveline. There goes your misfire detection.

    Unless you have an automatic, in which case the computer tells the torque converter clutch to unlock itself, and any shock is softened by the torque converter. Manual transmissions don't offer that option, and that was reported to be a real headache for the engineers.

    When faced with issues like that, it's no wonder that companies do not go through all the certification trouble to offer these niche cars... or the development necessary to even be able to certify.

    Of course, for your BMW/Porsche customers, the manual is a must. But if you're selling Camrys...

    -Mathias
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Exactly. Automatics are much much better at reducing unburned hydrocarbons, because there is never any "lift off" of the throttle. Not to mention, automatics save gas and reduce emissions by upshfting much sooner than you would in a manual, which they can do because they are slipping anyway, so they won't ever lug the way a manual would.

    And bottgers: in case you hadn't noticed, in models still available with manuals and automatics side by side, the automatics many times have BETTER fuel economy ratings. The race is on to six, seven, who knows maybe eight? speed autmatics. And of course CVTs with infinite ratios just keep getting better every generation, all of which creates gas savings. Meanwhile, we have had 5-speed manuals for how long? Sure, a few sport-intending models offer six-speeds, but most still offer five. Development of the manual transmission is slowing and stopping, with almost no manufacturer taking pride in it any more except Honda and maybe Porsche. Many companies now farm out their manuals to companies like Aisin. Too much trouble to develop a better manual themselves.

    The end is nigh, the end is nigh. Sigh.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Like I said before, if fuel efficiency is being used to forecast the end of the manual transmission, then we have bigger problems ahead.

    Porsche is the most profitable auto manufacturer in the world. Not the most fuel efficient. Because for some purchasers, getting the last mile per gallon out of the tank isn't the holy grail. And Porsche apparantly knows how to satisfy that demographic as good as or better than everyone else.

    And for that demographic, the manual transmission is still a very big component to performance and the overall driving experience. Yes, Ferrari's F1 SMG can now match their 6-speed in straight line performance. But not emotion or enjoyment - at least not for some.

    If you want to put forth fuel efficiency as the absolute Holy Grail for home heating systems, perhaps I could agree. But not for automobiles. At least not for the segment of the market that Porsche, BMW and others have been successfully catering to for many decades.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Oh, I don't mean to imply that fuel economy and emissions are the holy grail for customers - far from it! We know what many customers want, ESPECIALLY Porsche customers! :-)

    I am talking about the pressure that is going to increase year by year on manufacturers as standards get tighter and tighter. Already 11 of the 50 states have committed individually to meet the standards of the Kyoto Protocol. In California, that means we have set a goal of a 30% REDUCTION in greenhouse gas emissions, despite a growing population.

    So while a few niche automakers will continue to offer manuals as long as there is one red-blooded sports car customer out there who wants it, that does not offer a lot of hope for the mainstream, which could be auto-only in as little as 20 years, I would say. As soon as shift-it-yourself torque-converted automatics become widespread and no longer command a price premium, those last few manuals among mainstream brands will start to disappear...

    :-(

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,670
    Porsche is the most profitable auto manufacturer in the world. Not the most fuel efficient. Because for some purchasers, getting the last mile per gallon out of the tank isn't the holy grail. And Porsche apparantly knows how to satisfy that demographic as good as or better than everyone else.

    You and others cite Porsche as the great defender of the MT. They were among the first to develop a shiftable AT/manumatic (AKA Tiptronic) and I believe they are working on adapting the twin-clutch DSG system in the near future.

    What does that tell you about the future of the
    three pedal manual Shift?

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Indeed, Porsche has a $3,400 Tiptronic option. Ferrari has a $10,000 F1 option. These are very profitable options.

    But I seriously doubt that Porsche will offend the 90% of 911 purchasers that go with the traditional 6-speed manual by making any automatic the only choice, no matter how good or fuel efficient.

    P.S. I don't consider Porsche the "defender" of the manual transmission. I merely use them as an example of a company that probably wouldn't exist if fuel efficiency were everyone's top priority.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I'm sorry, the California commitment to meet the Kyoto Protocol is pretty hilarious, don't you think??

    Mind you, I'm a fan of Arnold, but doesn't he still park a Hummer in the Governor's mansion garage? I also own an SUV, but if the US or any state were serious about reducing emissions, they'd slap a big fat gas guzzler tax on SUV's. And, if I am not mistaken, California has the highest percentage of 6,000+ lb SUV's registered of any state.

    The idea that manual transmssions might go by the wayside in order to save our environment, while 6,000+ lb SUV's qualify for accelerated tax write-offs by self employed "life counselors" is just a little [non-permissible content removed] backwards in my book. Even I came damn close to telling my wife she couldn't have an MDX rated at 17/23 because it didn't meet the 6,000 lb minimum, whereas the Lexus GX470, rated at 15/18, cleverly came in at 6,010 lbs. She prevailed, but it COST us $15,000 in lost tax write-offs. Great system, isn't it?

    Will manual transmissions be around in "mainstream" cars in 20 years? Hell, I'm not even sure gasoline engines will be around in 20+ years. But if gas engines stay and manual transmissions don't, I sure as heck hope the reason is consumer preference and market economics, not voodoo environmentalism like the kind we are currently seeing out of our politicians. Sorry for getting off track. ;)
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    A. Why would you want to put a big fat gas-guzzler tax on SUVs. First of all, some get pretty good MPG. Second of all, SUVs get a lower tax deduction than pickup trucks, so why not pick on them for a while?

    B. Accelerated tax writeoffs only delay the payment of tax, not alleviate it, so these "life couselors" are only enjoying the benefit of the time value of money.

    C. Me likes the manual transmission.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "A. Why would you want to put a big fat gas-guzzler tax on SUVs."

    Well, speaking strictly for myself, a good reason would be fairness. Think about it this way, a 2003 BMW 540i 6-Speed manual (rated at 15/23 mpg) was socked with a $3,000 gas guzzler tax while the likes of the (unrated by the EPA) Hummer H2 and Ford Excursion from that same year were lucky to get half of the mileage of the BMW and had no such tax. Tax or no tax, make it consistent (and fair) either way.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • spiritintheskyspiritinthesky Member Posts: 207
    You'd be speaking for me too, Shipo.

    I paid a $2,200 gas guzzler tax for the privaledge of driving my 2003 BMW M5. It has an EPA rating of 13/21. Which is better than most 6,000+ lb SUV's. In 39,000 miles, I've averaged 19.2 mpg. It actually gets 22-24+ on the highway at 75-80 mph. My sister in law's husband has averaged under 12 mpg in his H2. For which he paid no gas guzzler tax and took a complete write off of the $60k price in 2003.

    Lemmer - you need a better accountant. There are simple - and legal - ways for a self employed person to buy a 6,000+ lb SUV for business, write off 50-100% of the price in the first year, drive it 3-4 years, convert it to personal use and later sell/trade it with little or no depreciation recapture. The ultimate cash-in was by my wife's orthopedic surgeon, who drives a $100k Porsche Cayenne Turbo. He proudly boasts that between state and federal deductions, he clipped $41,000 off of his 2003 income taxes. He hasn't made a house call in 20 years. He intends to give the SUV to his daughter when she heads off to college in three years.

    So if you want to save the environment, I would suggest kicking soccer moms and dads (as well as more than a few lawyers and doctors) out of SUV's before getting between me and my six speed (there got it in again). ;)
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    It's a little different for European brands.

    In Europe, F1 style transmissions (anything with paddles) are "cool." After all, everything that's cool in a sporty car comes from race cars, and in Europe what's big is F1 and WRC (both use paddles). Manual transmissions are what 95% of the population has, so they're not thought of as anything special.

    Therefore, European brands have been big on marketing paddle shifters. All the pressure to give the M5 a stick was from the US.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    before people get carried away here, I never meant to suggest that eliminating the manual transmission would save the environment, or anything REMOTELY LIKE THAT. Someone mentioned something like the automatic always gets worse gas mileage than the manual, which in many cases isn't true any more.

    But the more pertinent point is that automatics allow manufacturers to control smog-forming emissions much more than manuals do.

    Now for a more radical view: I think pretty much anything on the road not pulling a combined EPA rating of 20 mpg should be paying a gas guzzler tax. And just for fairness' sake, that would include the truck I just bought.

    People who are truly using large trucks for business should be able to defray that guzzler tax in their tax filing.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • waiwai Member Posts: 325
    I totally agreed with you that you need to pay $2200 tax while heavy SUV didn't need is not fair to you. In some other places like HongKong, the tax is based on the displacement of the vehicle, no matter its SUV or Sports car, eg. 1.5 L displacement will need to pay an annually registration tax of US$450 while 1.5L-2.5L will pay US$600 and over 3.L will pay $800.00. Which is more fair as it sums up to quite a difference if you own the same car for a couple of years.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    We are in agreement, I think. I am not opposed to some SUVs paying gas guzzler taxes in a manner similar to cars. I just didn't like the "stick it to SUVs" tone of his post.

    Really gas guzzler taxes don't work well on any vehicles for a variety of reasons, but that is a whole different topic.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Let's put it this way then: it's ludicrous for full-size body-on-frame passenger trucks to bypass the guzzler tax. The idea was to save farmers and others who actually use them to purpose the cost of the tax. Major oops.

    Time to close the loophole. Preferred method for me as opposed to a tax, frankly, is to make all passenger vehicles including SUVs and pickup trucks subject to economy averaging, and make the standard more stringent by a constant rate per annum, say 1%.

    Back to manuals: I think we may be approaching the time when three-pedal enthusiasts will pay for the priv., sorry to say.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "I think we may be approaching the time when three-pedal enthusiasts will pay for the priv., sorry to say."

    Geez, if that is as far as it goes, then sign me up! I will gladly pay extra to have a proper manual transmission. But I suspect it is going to go beyond that, to the point where most models do not have an available manual at all.

    There's a new casualty: the new RAV4 is auto-only, the last one had a standard 5-speed manual. What's more, the only model that still uses that 4-cylinder engine that has a manual is the tC (which is geared for performance, so Camry won't use it), so I expect the next-gen Camry coming in four months or so will be auto-only as well.

    After being cheered to hear that early Fusions would be 4-cyl, stick shift only, I headed on down to my local dealer, only to discover that the nearest two never ordered any 4-cylinder at all. The V-6, of course, is auto-only. :sick:

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    However, I heard that Southeast is getting worse now in areas like Atlanta, Miami etc...

    Atlanta traffic gets worse with every passing day. I finally moved into town to get out of traffic hell.

    Not once, though, even when I was commuting 90+ minutes did I think about giving up my manual transmission!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Such a bummer, too, can you imagine that 3.5l V6 with a manual? AWD? Sweet...

    -juice
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    coming out now on the '07 Camry makes it seem like there will still be a manual for the Camry? Then why on Earth not for the RAV, with the same engine and drive layout? Or they could have used the one from the tC if the Camry's box is geared too tall for the extra weight and drag of the RAV.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    Just thought I'd share- I bought a new Mazda3 a few days ago and went to great lengths to get a 5-speed manual. In Atlanta, I couldn't find the color I wanted (Titanium Gray) in the 5-door with no additional options (don't want leather, sunroof, CD changer). I found one in Knoxville, TN and one in Columbia, SC.

    Instead of settling for an automatic, I spent over three hours driving each way to Knoxville to buy my car on Thursday. Needless to say, I'm in love with it! It's amazing how much a manual transmission can change the personality of a car. I test drove an automatic (at the dealer's insistence) and wasn't even sure that the 3 was the car I wanted. Then I drove the manual and had no doubts!

    I did my part to show support for manuals. Long live the stick!
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    WAY TO GO! We need more like you. :-)

    BTW, isn't that car awesome? I came THIS close to buying that instead of the RSX.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    Oh yeah, I'm loving it. The 5-speed shifts almost as good as the one in the Miata. It's as good as any of my Hondas in the past and they had the best manual shifters ever.

    I looked at the new Civic, but no dealer could find me a 4-door manual in a color I liked. I wasn't a fan of the Civic interior either.

    Biggest selling points on the Mazda were the engine/tranny combo and performance, handling (and looks of the 17-inch wheels) and the interior design (love black interiors). I'm very happy with my decision.
  • jspringerjspringer Member Posts: 3
    I went through the same situation when I first got the PT Turbo (needed a car for a longish commute)--I traveled 2 hours to find a dealer that actually had a stick in stock for a test drive, then I had to go to another dealer to buy the car (I live in the north so leather gets a little cold--although I have changed a bit since getting the S500). Now I think I am probably only one of the people in the US that has the Turbo with cloth seats (Edmunds even lists leather as standard).
  • hondamatichondamatic Member Posts: 26
    Though it may sadden many readers of these forums (why do so many Edmunds readers prefer manuals anyway?), I concur that manuals will continue to diminish in the US and perhaps gradually in the rest of the world as well.

    Many advantages of automatics over manuals have already been listed in this discussion, such as increasingly equal or sometimes better mileage and less unburned hydrocarbons. However, I think the primary reason for the eventual disappearance of 3 pedal manuals is simply that it just takes too much effort for most newbies to learn to drive them. Every year, there will be fewer people who know how to drive MT's and this will lead to to fewer people who will even want them, until eventually only a few sports cars will bother to offer it as an option.

    For most people, the higher cost of learning to drive a manual, such as greater effort and coordination required, plus the possibility of damage to the clutch/transmission, plus in the increased risk getting into an accident from an untimely stall or having the car roll backwards from starting uphill, just isn't worth it. At least not compared to spending a mere extra $1000 or so for an A.T. Just one accident can potentially cost you that much, not to mention the annoyance of having to play the role of a "human speed regulating device" all the time. MT advocates say they offer more control, but the flip side is that you, the driver, are constantly being controlled by external factors, such as your speed dropping from turns and whatever, and always having to react to that by down shifting and (re)upshifting.

    I've pretty much driven automatics for most of my life (18 years) and thought about switching to MT this time. I quickly got reminded of how hard it can be and why most people avoid them like the plague. Granted, the number of times I've tried to drive a MT be counted on the fingers on my hands, maybe just one hand. Still, I did take one lesson from a driving school 13 years ago, and unlike learning to ride a bike, it's not coming back easily. Well, I did test drive two MT cars recently. One was the Mazda 3, which seemed to have an easier clutch. Besides the usual newbie gaffes of bucking and jerking, I only stalled the Mazda once. When I tried a Honda Civic, I stalled 4 times. It may just be me, but Honda Civics seem to have a stiffer, less forgiving clutch. Or that, and trying to start from a stop sign on an uphill grade. The Mazda made me think "Maybe I can actually do this". The Civic made me think "SHOULD I do this?!" Not trying to praise one or put down the other, just my impression, or perhaps the results of the particular itinerary of the test drives.

    I haven't completely given up the idea of getting an MT car this time, but as from my limited experience, I wonder how people ever managed to learn to drive on these things.
    MT's will continue to diminish simply because it's so hard to get started on them--literally.
  • waiwai Member Posts: 325
    Last week I put an advertisement at Universiy of Delaware web for selling my Civic coupe stick shift, out of ten students enquired, only one of them is a girl thinking it is a 5 speed automatic, Its sold in the next morning by a boy coming with his father. He's very skilled without stalling despite a teen. I guess it will be easier to learn at that age while he begins to learn driving. but not to learn stick after driving auto for a long time.
    I can tell that manual will still be welcome by nowadays teenager especially boys. One of my teenage son prefer auto while the other prefer manual for more control (when wheather condition is bad) and cheaper car and fuel price.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Oh my goodness, you are exactly the guy the car companies are catering to! :-P

    Seriously speaking, no offense, I get what you are saying, I just happen to disagree with your perspective. In fact, mine is pretty much 180 degress from yours. But I understand that more people have your perspective than have mine.

    "an untimely stall or having the car roll backwards from starting uphill"

    With just a couple of days practice, you would be driving that thing without stalling it at all, I am confident. As for starting uphill, use the hand brake if you are worried about rolling back!

    "the flip side is that you, the driver, are constantly being controlled by external factors, such as your speed dropping from turns and whatever, and always having to react to that by down shifting and (re)upshifting."

    Goodness no, you are not being controlled, you are merely being asked to exercise more control over your own vehicle in order to compensate for changing road conditions. And gosh is it ever more fun that way! :-)

    Cars have already reached a point where much of the message of what the car is doing (from the suspension and steering) is damped to the point of non-existence. Add the automatic transmission, and you might as well be playing a video game. Which is a very dangerous sensation for the driver to be receiving, IMO. Once driving feels like a video game, care and control of what is basically a high-speed moving weapon get relaxed.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "For most people, the higher cost of learning to drive a manual, such as greater effort and coordination required, plus the possibility of damage to the clutch/transmission, plus in the increased risk getting into an accident from an untimely stall or having the car roll backwards from starting uphill, just isn't worth it. At least not compared to spending a mere extra $1000 or so for an A.T."

    A mere $1,000? Ummm pardon me but according to my calculations, I've saved well over $12,000 on the 9 new cars that I've bought with manual gearboxes.

    "one accident can potentially cost you that much, not to mention the annoyance of having to play the role of a "human speed regulating device" all the time."

    Per my previous response, the flip side is that I've saved enough over the years to pay for half of a new Audi A3. As for "human speed regulating device", ummm, don't you play that same role in a car with an automatic transmission?

    "MT advocates say they offer more control, but the flip side is that you, the driver, are constantly being controlled by external factors, such as your speed dropping from turns and whatever, and always having to react to that by down shifting and (re)upshifting."

    In lieu of "reactive", I prefer to be "proactive". By that I mean, since I can see the curve/hill/corner/intersection coming well before getting there, I can perform a gear change in anticipation of said event, and as such have the car already set up for exactly how I want to negotiate whatever's ahead.

    Also, while we're on the "reactive" thing, I often find myself being forced to react to what an automatic transmission has deemed necessary. Case in point, I often find myself needing to accelerate from say 40 to 65 and even though the engine in many of the various rental cars that I've had or in our MiniVan (couldn't get that one with a stick :( ) had/has more than enough juice to perform the acceleration at the rate that I intend in the current gear, the transmission often decides to kick down a gear (or two), generating lots of noise and more acceleration that I want/need for the situation. I find that extremely annoying, obviously there are no such issues with a manual gearbox.

    Regarding the learning curve, based upon your experience, it seems to me that you never really "learned" how to do it, hence your difficulty in dusting off that skill and re-using it. Once truly learned, it IS just like riding a bike. That having been said, every car is different. In 1999 I picked up a new BMW 328i with a 5-Speed, and even though I had an easy 25 years and nearly 800,000 miles of stirring my own gears, I stalled it a number of times as I learned that cars' idiosyncrasies.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "I think the primary reason for the eventual disappearance of 3 pedal manuals is simply that it just takes too much effort for most newbies to learn to drive them."

    "I wonder how people ever managed to learn to drive on these things."

    "MT's will continue to diminish simply because it's so hard to get started on them--literally."


    WOW! :surprise:

    Are you sure you aren't confusing driving a munual transmission with performing vascular surgery?? :confuse:

    Please don't take what I am about to say too personally. Obviously, I don't know you and for all I know, you may be a very good and safe driver. But if someone really finds driving a manual transmission car an extreme challenge to their physical coordination skills, I think they should be denied a driver's license, period.

    As for "newbies" finding this task difficult, too bad. No license until they show the ability to get it. Come January, I will be teaching fifteen 6-7 year old girls and boys with no prior experience how to dribble a basketball with either hand and master a bounce pass. I would sure hope that a 16-17 year old with an inability to master the much simpler coordination of a manual transmission would be prohibited from driving on the Capital Beltway. For their sake and mine.

    Don't get me wrong. I harbor no ill will or disrespect for those that chose to buy and drive automatic transmissions because of personal preferences. I do occassionally give folks grief for thinking a "slushbox" is O.K. for a sports car. But that's all in good fun.

    Being coordinated enough to drive is serious, IMO. It's great that we now have anti-lock brakes, stability control systems and airbags coming out the wazoo. But with all of these advances in technology, I still don't think we should allow somebody behind the wheel of a car that is intimidated by the basic coordination required by a manual transmission.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Autos prevail on 93% of purchases because we are lazy, let's face it.

    We can't roll up windows -> power windows.

    We can't reach over to unlock a door, or better yet, get out like a gentleman and open the door for her -> power locks.

    Can't be fiddling with keys and a lock -> keyless entry.

    These unnecessary but convenient items are widespread for this reason.

    -juice
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "It's great that we now have anti-lock brakes, stability control systems and airbags coming out the wazoo."

    So that's where airbags come from. I've always wondered about that. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    "As for "newbies" finding this task difficult, too bad. No license until they show the ability to get it. "

    My 17 year old is coming up on her first full year of having her license and learned on and drive a 5 speed. Honestly she is THE best driver among her circle of friends who can now get behind the wheel and I have NO doubt that it's because driving a manual has given her a better feel for what's happening with the car.

    I'm not at all uncomfortable with her having one or two friends as passengers as she HAS to pay attention to the car because of the manual trasnmission. None of that "step on the tall skinny one to go" stuff :)
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    Took me 2-3 weeks before I stopped stalling my old Tercel. In my current car, even though I can blame it for having a crappy gearbox, I'm still ashamed that I can't shift smoothly much of the time.

    Maybe some of you guys are naturals, but for some of us it takes weeks to get comfortable with it. There's just so much to learn. Then you switch cars and they can be totally different. An old BMW gave me trouble. My Nissan gives me trouble. I drove an STi and thought the gates were mushy. Hondas make me feel like a pro though.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,737
    i certainly won't argue that we're lazy.

    but i will argue against the assumption that these ammenities merely exist for that purpose.

    power windows: smoother and quicker than a crank, not to mention there is nothing sticking out on the door digging into my leg. plus the inability to reach across the car and turn the crank on the passenger side.

    keyless entry: saves potential scratches trying to get your key in the lock in the dark, plus no more iced-over locks to worry about.

    power locks: first, it comes as a part of keyless entry, so see above. 2nd, prevents your 3 passengers from sitting out in the cold longer than necessary as you awkwardly reach to each door to pull the lock up.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I'm probably a bit of an anomoly, I like all of the goodies, power/remotly operated locks, power memory seats, power sunroof, power windows (preferrably with one-touch for all four), power trunk release, steering wheel controls for the CC, Phone and Audio system, 2-Zone climate control, and the list goes on. That having been said, I still want my manual transmission, and will not willingly opt for a car without one (such was the case with our minivans). To my way of thinking, all of those power features allow me more time to enjoy the pleasures of stirring my own gears. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • prosaprosa Member Posts: 280
    As for starting uphill, use the hand brake if you are worried about rolling back!

    Or get a Subaru ;)

    As for the point raised elsewhere about losing one's ability to drive a manual after driving just slushboxes for a period of time, I will point out that a few months ago my stepdaughter wanted to get a car with a manual. As she didn't have her license at the time, it fell to me to do the test drives. I hadn't driven a manual since 1988 or 1989, yet I had no trouble at all doing so. Similarly, once we got the car (a 2001 Jetta), my wife was able to drive it with no difficulty despite not having driven a manual in maybe 15 years.
  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,598
    A lot of recent posts have centered around the difficulty (or lack thereof) in learning to drive a stick. I am of the opinion that it is a one-time deal, and once you learn you will be able to go back to it quickly no matter how long you drive slushboxes in between.

    On the flip side, no one who has never driven a stick can possibly appreciate the difference that it makes in a modestly to moderately powerful car (allfiredup referred to this in post 531). A stick shift literally transforms such a car; or maybe I should say transforms it back from the slug that an automatic turns it into. I swear that anyone who makes this comparison would never go back to an auto in such a vehicle.

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,618
    It is, in fact, like a bicycle.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,737
    I swear that anyone who makes this comparison would never go back to an auto in such a vehicle.

    well, sorry to tell ya that i have to force you to go back on your word already.

    When I was shopping for a new-to-me car back a bit over 4 years ago, I just had to have a manual trans. I limited my search to cars available in manual. Well, when i finally settled my search on an S70 T5, I wound up driving both a manual and auto. I opted for the auto. I just did not like the stick available in this car and really loved the way the auto acted in sport mode. I've never regretted my choice.

    So, I have to say, as much as I support sticks, it really can depend on the car.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    are not exactly world-renowned. In a Volvo, I might opt for the automatic too, as long as it had "sport-shift".

    Edit...or better yet, just opt away from a Volvo, because of the lousy stick shifts!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "So, I have to say, as much as I support sticks, it really can depend on the car."

    I've heard similar things about the Audi A3 6-Speed Manual versus 6-Speed Automatic DSG. Not that the Manual was all that bad, it's just that the Automatic is all that good. Even still, I so much prefer having three pedals under the dash that even as good as the DSG might could well be (allegedly better acceleration, better mileage, and to some, a better driving experience), I'd still opt for the Manual.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • hondamatichondamatic Member Posts: 26
    As for "human speed regulating device", ummm, don't you play that same role in a car with an automatic transmission?

    Of course, you're also regulating speed with an AT, but with an MT, you have to do several more actions when you react. Besides also having to deal with the gas and brake pedals, you also have to decide how much power the engine should transmit to the wheels (which gear now) on top of that and do the clutch-shift-release shuffle.

    Also, while we're on the "reactive" thing, I often find myself being forced to react to what an automatic transmission has deemed necessary. Case in point, I often find myself needing to accelerate from say 40 to 65 and even though the engine in many of the various rental cars that I've had or in our MiniVan (couldn't get that one with a stick ) had/has more than enough juice to perform the acceleration at the rate that I intend in the current gear, the transmission often decides to kick down a gear (or two), generating lots of noise and more acceleration that I want/need for the situation. I find that extremely annoying, obviously there are no such issues with a manual gearbox.

    Yeah, but that's simply annoying, not potentially dangerous, as my examples with the car rolling backwards or stalling during a left turn at intersection would be.

    I sometimes have the opposite problem, because my car's AT is programmed to stay in its high gear, 4th, for as long as possible. Sometimes after a turn or coming off a freeway ramp, my speed has dropped to 30 mph or less and should have down shifted to 3rd or lower, but often it won't (unless I gun the gas pedal hard like in your example and generate lots of noise and fuel wastage). Fortunately this Accord's AT lets you choose between D4, D3, 2, and L so sometimes I downshift myself. Gives some limited control over the gear selection without the annoyance of a clutch, but of course not as precise as a real MT.

    Regarding the learning curve, based upon your experience, it seems to me that you never really "learned" how to do it, hence your difficulty in dusting off that skill and re-using it. Once truly learned, it IS just like riding a bike.

    Probably not. Including the lesson 13 years ago and the two recent test drives, I've probably logged no more than 5 total hours in MT cars for my entire lifetime. I'm not sure what people can tell me or what classroom instruction can help at this point. I think there's only the matter of actually doing it and practicing at this point.

    That having been said, every car is different. In 1999 I picked up a new BMW 328i with a 5-Speed, and even though I had an easy 25 years and nearly 800,000 miles of stirring my own gears, I stalled it a number of times as I learned that cars' idiosyncrasies.

    I've always suspected that some clutches are harder for some people to deal with than others. I seem to have a harder time with Honda Civic clutches, stalled much more often with them so far. But doesn't the fact even an old pro like you can stall when changing cars suggest MT's are just too cumbersome for what they're worth? :)
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    It's still hard after five hours.

    If you like what you have, good for you, but I can't stand the slow reactions of automatics, nor the unexpected shifts. And my left foot gets bored.

    But it took me a few weeks of driving stick before I realized I liked it. Before that, I didn't even know what revs meant. Learning stick was what pushed me towards learning about how drivetrains work.
  • hondamatichondamatic Member Posts: 26
    Please don't take what I am about to say too personally. Obviously, I don't know you and for all I know, you may be a very good and safe driver.

    I think I am. Haven't had an accident in at least 7+ years.

    But if someone really finds driving a manual transmission car an extreme challenge to their physical coordination skills, I think they should be denied a driver's license, period.

    Then you would be wrong. Do any of the DMV's in the US require one to be able to drive a manual tranmission before issuing them a license? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't think so. In other countries, it's a different story.

    Given such low percentages of MT cars in the US, is there any NEED for one to be able to drive them? Here, only people who actually WANT to drive MT cars need to deal with them, with a few exceptions for professional reasons, i.e. valets, car dealers, and mechanics.

    I do think there should be two different grades or levels of driver licenses. One for certification on AT and another for MT, given the significant difference of skill level required. Not sure if there are states that do this, at least MD and VA don't when I last checked.

    Come January, I will be teaching fifteen 6-7 year old girls and boys with no prior experience how to dribble a basketball with either hand and master a bounce pass.

    If you've ever coached or taught any physical activity before, you know some people will pick it up faster than others. Do you also tell those who don't that they shouldn't be playing because they "suck"?

    I would sure hope that a 16-17 year old with an inability to master the much simpler coordination of a manual transmission would be prohibited from driving on the Capital Beltway. For their sake and mine.

    "Capital Beltway" huh? So you're also local to my area. If you drive regularly on the Beltway with our traffic jams, you definitely don't want a stick. :)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Of course, you're also regulating speed with an AT, but with an MT, you have to do several more actions when you react. Besides also having to deal with the gas and brake pedals, you also have to decide how much power the engine should transmit to the wheels (which gear now) on top of that and do the clutch-shift-release shuffle."

    Regarding all of the onerous tasks that the driver of a car needs to perform when driving, one would think that cars with three pedals would be in more accidents than cars with automatics. Apparently that is not the case as I've heard over the last several years that some insurance companies offer a discount on cars with manual gearboxes because the actuarial tables shows a lower incidence of accidents per million miles. To the uninitiated it might very well seem like lots of thing to coordinate at once, however, with a relatively short learning curve the manipulation of the controls becomes so second nature that you won't even know you're doing it. I know that may seem hard to believe but you'll just have to trust me on that. ;-)

    "Yeah, but that's simply annoying, not potentially dangerous, as my examples with the car rolling backwards or stalling during a left turn at intersection would be."

    Here again, once you've truly mastered the manual shift, stalling and rolling backwards in an intersection will rarely if ever happen. When I mentioned stalling my 328i a few times I should have been more specific. While I can come up with no real good explanation of why, the only time I stalled it was backing out of my garage or out of a parking spot, I never stalled it on the roads and never going forward.

    "...I've probably logged no more than 5 total hours in MT cars for my entire lifetime."

    Hmmm, 5 hours huh? Yeah, after 5 hours I too was still in heavy duty learning curve mode. Of course I learned to drive a stick shift while living in San Diego and my normal haunts were rather hilly, to say the very least. I'm thinking that even with daily practice, the whole smooth launch from a stop light while on a steep incline took maybe a couple of months. Then again, my car was a 1970 Dodge Challenger, a car that actually had 4 pedals under the dash, one for the parking brake. Ohhh did I wish for a hand brake back then. :-/ Anyway, once mastered, I had absolutely no problem driving in San Francisco with a stick, regardless of the intersection. :-)

    "I've always suspected that some clutches are harder for some people to deal with than others. I seem to have a harder time with Honda Civic clutches, stalled much more often with them so far. But doesn't the fact even an old pro like you can stall when changing cars suggest MT's are just too cumbersome for what they're worth?"

    Last part first; nope. See above. ;-) Thinking about this further, I've spent quite a bit of time in the saddle, literally. The fact is that there are horses (simultaneous translation: "Stable Nag"), and then there are HORSES (simultaneous translation: "Steed of the Gods"). Stable Nags just kind of go, "tee-cock-tee-coo" all day long, they'll get you there with no muss and no fuss, but damn they're boring to ride. Me, I prefer the Steed, the one that immediately tries to rip the reigns out of your hands and rub you off on a gnarly old tree stump. Once you let that creature know that you've got their moves covered, there just ain't no finer riding experience. Period, full stop, the end.

    So yeah, gimme a high strung car with three pedals and/or a high strung horse with lots more to watch out for. In either case, I find them the more satisfying experience. ;-)

    Your suspicion that some clutches are harder to use than others is very well founded. See? You're learning. ;-) That you can tell the difference after only 5 hours means that you've probably got the hardest part licked. I'm thinking that the easiest car that I've ever driven was an early 1980s Mazda RX7. That my friends was a damn fine car with a stick. The ZF gearbox of my last two BMWs was at best okay, but nothing to write home about. The new Getrag 6-Speed of the current crop of BMWs is WAY better, although still not up to the level of that old Mazda.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "Capital Beltway" huh? So you're also local to my area. If you drive regularly on the Beltway with our traffic jams, you definitely don't want a stick.

    Oh yes we do! :)

    My wife and I have been driving 25+ and 30+ years respectively. Last January, our 2005 Acura MDX was the first vehicle either of us has ever purchased with an automatic transmission. Had it been available in a 6-speed like our Acura TL, we would have paid extra for it. Especially given Honda/Acura's history of less than relaible automatics.

    My wife's preference for a manual is mostly for the feeling of direct control of the vehicle, especially in snow, but all of the time. My preference is a combination of control, performance and fun to drive. But those are just "preferences" and I respect that yours are different.

    My concern was that you made it sound like driving a stick was the equivalent of beating Micheal Jordon in basketball, not dribbling one. Frankly, that scares me. At one time or another, there is a good chance that anyone driving the Capital Beltway is going to face an "accident avoidance maneuver". I did a few years ago when a truck blew a tire and veered across two lanes (at night, in a light rain). I didn't have time to think, I just had to react. I braked, swerved, acclerated out of a skid/spin and managed to get by. If you are so easily intimidated by a manual transmission, how do you think you would have handling that situation, regardless of what you were driving?

    I'll repeat my point: Everybody is free to make ther own choice about whether to drive a manual or automatic. But if someone can't master the physical coordination required to drive a stick, that's a pretty good indication that they don't have the coordaintion required to control a 3,000 lb car (or 5,000 lb SUV) in an accident avoidance maneuver. And, if I were President, they wouldn't be issued a National Driver's License that I would be instituing by presidential decree.

    But don't worry, I'm not giving up my day job to run for office just yet. I'm too politically incorrect for that. But I bet I would save innocent lives.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I agree that our licensing standards should match those of many other countries, in which you can't pass unless you can drive a stick and demonstrate certain crucial vehicle control maneuvers.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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