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I have don't my part, I have offered to teach many of my friends kids how to drive a stick. But of the three I have worked with all, each and every one got a automatic for a first car? Why, because they are easier to find and easier to get your license with. Yes my friend, the truth may be that it takes more skill to drive a manual but it is easier to not stall with a automatic when you have that DMV person looking over your shoulder.
But we both know where I live and my driving conditions and a paddle shifter in the mountains would be a dream come true. Snick first, snick second, snick third snick forth, snick fifth, here comes a corner, dive to the inside snick snick back to third mash the go pedal and off I go.
Driving in traffic on a bike is not pertinent - not only are they much much lighter, making the auto-clutch engagement much smoother if there were such a thing on a bike, but don't motorcycle drivers just go whizzing between the lanes at 35 mph anyway?
My local Honda dealer just ordered THREE V-6 manual shift accord sedans! Did I already mention this? Quite unprecedented...I am hoping it is the beginning of a trend. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If a manual transmission shifts by computer, and makes a 0.1 second upshift, the revs don't fall enough for the shift to be smooth. The engine gets slowed down very suddenly by the drivetrain.
Both torque converters and slowly easing off the clutch pedal serve to draw out that drag so that it's smoother. Of course, the ideal way to smoothly upshift is to let the revs fall in neutral so that when the clutch plates connect, the engine speed and the clutch speed match. Computers should be able to do that, but instead they usually shift as fast as possible - ok on the track if you're not upshifting at a bad time, but not ok on the street. That problem is purely a human decision to program the computer the wrong way - and everyone's done it.
Nippon, yes and I also get as sticky and low profile tires as I can. But I realize I have a better commute than most. Dreams do come true. :P
Driving in real life, perhaps somewhat agressivly, fuel economy suffers (jack rabit starts, trying to keep up with the speed of traffic on the highway, etc) and under real life driving conditions, I think a stick is actually better than an automatic, especially for extended highway driving at higher speeds. The manual transmission cars with a deep overdrive 6ths gear make this even more true.
By not shifting at the shift points or the upshift light certianly isnt worse than punching the gas in an automatic, which makes it shift higher as well.
I've been hearing the "Manuals are harder to clean up" line for many years; however, personally I've always thought it was so much bilge water. My belief is that any decent computer controlled emissions system worth its salt will be just as capable at cleaning up a car engine with a Manual transmission as it will be with an Automatic. It seems that both BMW and Audi happen to agree.
Best Regards,
Shipo
steine13, "The Future Of The Manual Transmission" #512, 20 Nov 2005 4:20 pm
I didn't want to have to type all this again. I'm happy to report that "advanced search" works again.
-Mathias
Anyway, I guess I sort of misstated my position regarding cleaning up manual transmissions. I wasn't trying to suggest that the same software would clean up a manual transmission equipped car, just that once programmed, the manual car should be as clean and efficient as the automatic. Your post seems to support my belief, so "Thanks for the Heads-Up". ;-)
The issue of the bumpy dirt road causing a misfire to be detected by the OBD-II reminds me of what the Pratt&Whitney engineers had to go through back in the 1930s to balance the R-2800 Double Wasp. If memory serves, the P&W engineers had to figure out a certain 1.5x torsional vibration that turned out to be the test propellor passing through its own shock wave as any given blade (of a three blade propellor running at a 2:1 reduction) would near the floor of the test cell. It drove them crazy trying to figure out what was causing this elusive vibration and how to solve it. The problem resolution turned out to be as simple as changing the reduction gearing ratio from 2:1 to 20:9 or 16:9 or 5:2.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I am 60 years old and we have two wonderful cars with manuals, a 2005 Accord EX and a 2003 Acura RSX.
I hope manual trannys outlast me.
"It is worse for the Accord 4 banger with california grade gas. The Automatic is rated at 24 city and 34 highway. The manual with the same engine is rated at 21 city and 30 highway"
The 21/30 rating is actually for the V-6 with a manual. The Accord 4-cylinder is rated 24/34 for auto, 26/34 for manual, 2 points better around town.
Read in the paper yesterday that Schwarzenegger is proposing to pledge to (broadly) follow the Kyoto protocols in California, with a proposed gas tax (which they actually name something else) to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, below 1990 levels by 2050 if all goes as planned.
If this makes it (I am sure everyone in the car industry, the chamber of commerce, and probably the federal government too will sue), we could see a shift towards smaller engines and (yippee!) more manuals.
Initially the tax would amount to about a penny a gallon, so the effect would be minimal for a while.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Did you notice that the Scions are pretty poor in the clean air regard as well. They fell below the Porsche Boxter and the Mustang V-6.
As far as our friend Arnold keeping "any" campaign promises let alone one that both the Federal government and industry is opposed to? I don't believe I will start holding my breath just yet.
Rocky
The manual, unfortunately, is "just" LEV-rated. These days, that's half the cars being sold.
Rocky: nope, the days of advancing the state of the manual transmission art are over, I am sure. Six is all we will see in a true manual. We may see more later in computer-automated manuals.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Pal what the heck is a computer automated manuel ????
Interesting, I've never heard of one of those.....
Rocky
When you start talking about 7 or 8 speeds it makes sense to go to right a CVT with it's infinite number of "speeds".
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
It is my opinion that we are going to see some cars with this kind of shifter in the next few years. It isn't just for high end cars either. The old MR-2 had a transmission very much like this. People loved it or hated it but I thought it was pretty good for an afordable car sold in the US.
The manual as we know it in the US is not fading because of lack of supporters of the transmission here in the US. It is fading because of lack of mainstream buyers. With the introduction of CVT transmissions, and their further development, and better Automatics plus pollution controls make the future of the manual pretty dim. Not in our life time some may say? Maybe not but then I never thought I would see a CVT in my life time either.
Some my wonder how a computer could replace the third pedal. As a off the wall example I submit this example. For over ten years I drove a big rig tractor trailer. For 9.5 of those years I only used the clutch in first to start from a stop. I could hear the engine and know when to shift so the gears would mesh without using the clutch. All 12 of them could be shifted this way up and down hills and in or out of town. But that wasn't a gas engine you say? Today I tend to shift both my wife's Focus and my PT without the clutch on upshifts in third forth and fifth. Yes it is harder to do in down shifting so I don't use that method but is is pretty easy once you learn how. Now my reactions are a whole lot slower than a computers so I have no problem thinking about a computer doing my clutch work for me. I just hope they come out with one for mainstream cars before I am relegated to electric golf carts.
Cant say that we really need any more than 6 for a performance car. Its not about the number of gears, its more about ratio's and spacing.
Ok -Thanx
Rocky
He and I are NOT talking about manu-matics.
We are talking about the manuals with actual clutches under the hood, just not a clutch you have a pedal to operate.
Examples: SMT (in the MR2 boaz mentioned - fairly primitive, the SMT, not boaz! :-)), SMG (in BMWs), DSG is the latest (in many VW Group cars including the A3 and the GTI)
Manu-matics are just fake automatics with a little lever to let the driver think he is shifting for him/herself. They still have a torque converter to slush up all the fun.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Or was it a 5 or 6 speed with a vacuum overdrive (a la pre-90s Volvos and Corvettes)?
My limited experience with commercial trucks had 6 speeds with 2 speed rear excpet for this one old dump truck that I think was a 4spd with a 3 spd rear.
I'm far from a transmission expert.
Rocky
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=20&article_id=140
I like this concept a lot. And it is available already. The great thing is it would be a real challenge to automatics. Suppose you are a car enthusiast and a business man, not mutually exclusive I believe. Your wife doesn't like to drive a manual because it is hard to use with the high heels that make her legs look ever so good. Her car is in the shop and after a night at a party with friends you both conclude you have maybe tasted the wine once or twice too often. I know it has never happened to most people in here because non of then would dream of drinking at a party they drove to. The wife however, high heals and after five dress is stone sober. You could trust her to drive you both home safely in your new BMW because the true manual you drive can be selected to operate in automatic mode. Yes it has a getrag 6 speed. Yes it can be shifted as smoothly as a traditionally manual and yes it has been programed to have a automatic mode to drive home when automatic would be more practical. All positive benefits that can't be duplicated with a conventional third pedal six speed anything. And in sports mode you can drop you friends like a bad habit in the 1/4 mile. If you even care about such a thing.
Rocky
The Fullers usually have 5 speeds in a low range, then 4 or 5 in a higher range, with all the gears in the transmission (none in the differential). The range shift is air-assisted & none of the gears have synchros -- you have to match the transmission input & output speeds by double-clutching or correct timing. It's entirely possible to shift without the clutch at all, once the vehicle is moving. The 13-speed transmissions split the top four gears (in high range), so you have the 5 low range gears, then eight more.
The 5 X 4 Spicer transmission is just two transmissions in series, though you rarely need to use anywhere near all 20 speeds. The trick is knowing which ones to use & which ones to skip -- loaded, unloaded, uphill or down all enter into it.
Truck diesels (the kind that need 11 gallons of oil when it's time for a change) have a relatively narrow power band, from ~1400 to 2100 rpm, for example, which is why so many ratios are needed. The Allison automatics get by with fewer because of the magic of the torque converter. Remember the 2-speed Powerglide in GM cars?
The kind of truck transmissions you are asking about are what you might have seen on a U-Haul straight truck 15-20 years ago.
Anyway, this is why shifting a manual in a car, regardless of the traffic conditions, is much like breathing to me -- requires no thought or effort (unless fun is being had on curvy &/or hilly traffic-free roads).
Master the manual and you can drive just about anything, and it can be satisfying. If you forget about the common mistakes manual drivers often make, riding the clutch pedal, resting you hand all the time on the shifter, excessive slipping of the clutch and lugging the engine you will not be satisfied with the longevity of you transmission. Drive a manual correctly and you will wonder what in the world I was talking about when I said I had to replace three clutches, oh and one transmission. But I had a teenager helping me get the transmissions in a condition that would require any work.
Just have her take off her left shoe, or keep a pair of driving shoes in the car! :P
Of course, this would not work with my wife - she still wouldn't drive it.
A Manu-matic is an automatic that has a manual shift gate or paddles. These are important, because some newer automatics don't list all your options, preventing you from just going 1-2-d-od. As if most poeple ever did.
Instead, imagine a regular manual where a electronic actuator connects where your pedal used to be. When you pull out of first, the computer pushes in the clutch for you, and then releases it when your in second. Yes this is an over simplification, but still the long and short of it.
By comparison, a clutch replacement for almost any vehicle short of a HD would run you half that or less. And a failed manual transmission is so rare, I don't think it should even be factored in. I have never replaced or rebuilt a manual trans in more than 20 years of driving, including many cars over 200K miles.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Mustang was the only automatic I have ever replaced. That includes every car I have owned since my 56 Plymouth typewriter. Of course back in the mussel cars days high HP motors and 4 speeds were the death of a manual or at least the clutch. Well that and a set of wrinkle walls for the weekend drags.
I've also swapped out my fair share of automatics. $300 to $800 bucks for a rear driver, and still a couple of hours. Front driver? $5 (A box of shotgun shells and a call to the wrecking yard).
Your prices look similar, but your comparing a FWD manual to a RWD slushbox. How much would would a auto for a Saturn gone for, or a clutch for Mustang?
Apples and Oranges.
Either way, wow. Good Lord, I had a friend who replaced the auto trans in his Dodge Colt in the mid-90s ("Double-A-M-C-O") and it cost him about $1500 installed. He must have been ripped off.
As for clutch replacements, yeah, I figure around $1000 these days, at least for FWD/AWD. Sometimes it is cheaper, rarely more expensive.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
IIRC, replacing the tranny in an Odyssey will set you back about 4 large (grand, that is) if you pay for it yourself. A Windstall should also set you back a good 3K.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Good luck choosing between the tC and 3...
C'mon guys, little old ladies can do this.
-Mathias
Remember, once on the road, you have to keep an eye on the revs so they don't get too low or too high! :-)
The tach will help with that - if you are below 2000 rpm and trying to accelerate in anything but 1st or 2nd gear, downshift! If you see the redline rushing up, upshift! You will get a feel pretty quickly for where the engine is comfortable.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Having to look at the lever when they shift.
Jerking the steering wheel when shifting.
Forgeting to push in the clutch when stopping (killing it).
Not pushing the clutch in far enough when shifting(If you cant find 'em, grind 'em).
But in the end its about finding that balance between the clutch and the throttle that is different in every car. "Pop" the clutch (meaning let it out to fast), with not enough throttle and you get a jack-rabbit start (or kill it). Too much throttle and you smoke the tires.
It more about clutch speed than throttle. In most cars you can take off without touching the gas if you let the clutch out slow enough, although this is what causes the clutch to slip.
As far as taking off on hills, same thoery about balance but if your to slow you backwards. Remember, if you come to a stop on a hill and have a foot on the brake, you don't have a third one.
There are 3 answers to handle this.
1. Fast reflexes.
2. Heel and toe the brake and throttle with one foot.
3. Ride the clutch to hold you on the hill.
I'm rambling, sorry.
Just pull on the handbrake to hold you. When you want to move, let up on the clutch and apply a little gas, until you feel the car start to strain slightly against the brake. Then just let off the handbrake and you should be moving forward, not rolling backwards.
Option 3 is real bad for the life of the clutch. Most experienced stick drivers (well, OK me) use option 1, since it is just 2nd nature not to roll back.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.