Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
Comments
BTW-I do like the Acura RSX. Especially the Type-S. I'm going to consider one as a work car someday. When was the first RSX made ? Are they any good in the snow with snow tires ?
Rocky
I am actually willing, to a certain extent these days, to let the availability of a manual with the options set I like guide my choice in vehicle. How's that for pathetic?! :-)
Also my insistence on a manual means after the cars I have now, I will probably leave the Toyota fold permanently, as the concept of a manual shifter is rapidly becoming a foreign one for them. It's OK though, as that still leaves me Subaru, Honda, and Mazda, all three of which make a plentiful supply of stick-shifts and tend to make a stick at least nominally available in most models.
Also, for my next SUV (hopefully ten years hence, if I don't get the itch sooner) I will probably be forced to choose between an automatic SUV or a stick-shift pick-up instead. Even among those manufacturers still committed to the stick. :-(
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Pathetic? That's just rational.
In a new car, I wanted a stick wagon... I ain't gonna spend $15 or $20 on a car and not get the body style I want, and if I'm willing to go auto, there's no good reason not to just get $5 Taurus and be done with it.
BTW, don't worry too much about not getting a stick Matrix; if the shifter is anything like it's in my Vibe, then it's pretty darned clunky and you didn't miss much.
-Mathias
Every stick I have ever sold has gone within a week or two.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Be careful with that Taurus though, there are 6 in the parking lot at work and they have all had new auto trans in their lifetime. Maintenance is very important. As an aside, if we didn't get the Subie, we would've gotten a used Vibe stick (even though you have to wind the dookie out of it to get any power) and if not that, then a Taurus wagon. Those are pretty much free on the used market.
We often try to dismiss the reasons manuals are becoming a rare breed in cars as if simply saying it makes us traitors to the ones that prefer manuals. The real fact is you have to be more involved in driving to drive a manual. "That is the point", you might say, but the trouble is that isn't the point to most people. Going for a drive on the weekend as a family outing is no longer something most families do. We live in a world where driving is a task that we do only to accomplish something else. We use our cars to get some place to do something. We drive to get to work or to go somewhere to be entertained.
You are correct in mentioning that even Toyota seems to be moving away from the Manual. Some cars we can buy today don't even offer a manual option even if you order it from the factory. People are looking for less involvement in tasks like driving and the manufacturers are more than willing to cater to them. Cell phones come as an option in many cars. Hands free with controls on the steering wheel. You have surround sound music and DVD players in the back. DVD players aren't limited to vans and SUVs either. you see them in sedans. Some of the upper end vehicles are moving to drive by wire controls. I have read that some of those cars have only an electrical connection to the throttle and how far are we from servo steering? With all this in mind is it any wonder Automatics outnumber manuals eight or nine to one? People are looking for less involvement with daily tasks and unless you are a auto enthusiasts cars are a daily "task" that people are willing to become less involved with. ABS, Skid control, back up cameras, voice activated sound systems, dash mounted GPS with a video screen you can use from the drivers seat.
I have heard that as long as we have european and Asian cars there is an assurance that we will have manuals as an option. While that may give manual die hards like some of us comfort I wonder. After all it is Europe and Asia that are putting more and more CVTs and SMG like transmissions in smaller and smaller cars. If there were no need in countries that have so many manuals already you would wonder why a manufacturer would bother trying to develop another kind of transmission. Lastly as we see a move to green cars I see a move away from manuals. But then we have already discussed that aspect of things.
Nippon, keep true to your favorite transmission. I just see it as going the way of the Record player, or the 8 track and casett tape player. I just have no prediction as to how long that will take. I will confess that before I bought my last two cars I took a hard look at cars with CVTs. The thought of a transmission with an unlimited selection of gear ratios sounded more than interesting. They just haven't proved themselves to me yet.
My current Mazda Protege tranny is not quite as smooth as a Civic, but very good nonetheless. The hydraulic clutch has a heavier or stronger feel, which I prefer. I have 192K miles on the original clutch and it still works fine even after pulling a utility trailer and 400 lb. ATV for the last 8 years. Bravo Mazda for overbuilding your parts!
I really need a manual tranny with a small engine (1.5L) to fully utilize the power, especially when towing. The fact that I saved $1000 by not getting the auto makes it all the sweeter. And of course, I like the much better gas milage with the manual. This car is fun to drive and so economical. Can an auto tranny really match this?
No way, not a chance! :-)
I agree with your comments on Honda's manual transmissions - best in the world bar none (I have even seen in reviews of BMWs, particularly the new 3-series, where editors have written they wished the shifter were a little more like Hondas - one called the shifter "rubbery" in the 330i he was driving).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Just to point out the way things are. There was a time when manuals were called the standard transmissions. That is no longer true because many cars do not offer a manual option. Manuals have been losing ground to automatics for years to point that many dealers only order a few manuals to keep on their lots. And as you pointed out they often will discount manuals to get rid of them at the end of the year. Ask yourself if manuals are in the minority of the transmissions sold in the US and then try to explain why.
A question has to be asked. If manuals are in the minority now and more of our youth are being taught to drive automatics what will they opt for when they get their first car? If more automatics are sold than manuals what will those same kids find at the used car lots? If even Honda and Toyota are working on producing more automatic options in their cars as well as putting quite an investment in new, non manual, transmissions what to you see as the future of manuals? That is, after all, the question. Not how we feel about manuals but what does the future hold for them? Just as a question does Nissan offer a manual option on the Murano? If not why not?
I think 2002 was the first year for the RSX. Our is a base 2003, and we love it.
We don't get much snow here in Virginia. Since it is a lightweight car with fairly wide tires, I assume it would be horrible in the rain or snow. I drive it very carefully in those conditions.
But the point I was trying to make is that a manual tranny is cheaper to build and sell (currently around $700 for Hondas without any additional discounts), gets better overall gas mileage, and is more reliable and less expensive to operate over time than an auto. So given that this world is full of frugal consumers (especially outside the USA) who demand basic and reliable cars, it will be quite some time before manuals are eliminated.
I often get wondering looks when towing an ATV with a small car. It does work fine and is safe as far as braking and handling. I push the GVWR to its limits. I really don't think I could do this with an automatic or CVT transmission on this small car. If you have ever travelled in rural Europe, then you know what I am doing is actually quite common. No big V8s there to pull your goat to market!
It is true that manuals are cheaper to buy, but I've read -- I forget where, some trade rag I think -- that on the Corolla, the manual is $800 or so more expensive for the manufacturer.
I believe it. On the one hand, you have the economies of scale -- though it beats me what that means when you're building tens of thousands of sticks vs. hundreds of thousands of automatics.
On the other hand, you have a few million dollars for certification, and in the US, that means every drive train combination with every body style.
The reason for the $7-900 premium for automatics is simply that the market will bear it.
Which, for guys like me, is a good thing.
-Mathias
As far as towing with a Automatic verses a manual the torque converter often adds something to the ability at least in bigger vehicles. I have never seen a SUV with a manual and when I bought my F-250 the towing package included a automatic with a transmission cooler. That is what was reccommended to tow up to 12,000 pounds. I will admit that I haven't towed anything with my two smaller cars, the PT or the Focus, because they aren't rated for that much. I have been looking for a Quad but I don't plan on hitching it to my PT.
I will agree manuals should be less expensive to manufacture. They are old technology and all the R&D money has long since been spent. Minor improvements are about all that can be done. But on the other hand CVTs are about as light and should be as easy to manufacture if they do indeed catch on. Transmissions like the SMG offer manual control plus automatic mode for when manual isn't wanted. Will the three pedal ever offer that kind of convinence? If we are looking at green machines will they ever come up with a solution for the over reving that occurs in manuals today? It isn't much but it is enough to give the automatics an edge on the green meter. Will Small cars with manuals ever replace Mini Vans and SUVs or even pickups in the US? Will they ever put manuals in mini vans and SUVs. Maybe in the smaller ones but I believe even Honda sells more CRVs with automatics than they do manuals. I don't believe they offer the LX or Se in a manual. So we might not see the manual phased out while we are still driving but looking at the future of automobiles I would expect that it could happen before some of us die. It is not a problem facing Automatics and more than likely never will be.
we took a pole in this forum once early on to see how many enthusiasts had at least one automatic in their household and almost everyone did. I know there were a few who didn't. But there are plenty of households where no one has a manual.
Getting to the heart of the matter. Putting preferences aside. Who in these forums sees a bright future for the three pedal manual? Does anyone feel that there will "never" be a day when manuals aren't offered in the US as a standard feature.
No, most people in the USA will not immediately switch to compact or subcompact cars at current gas prices. I think prices would have to be in the sustained $3-$5/gallon range for this to occur. But the current gasoline pricing instability is focusing much more attention on small cars. And with small cars and small engines, the transmission of choice is a manual. When you go under 100 on horsepower or torque, you need the engine control that a manual gives.
Minivans and SUVs do come with manual transmissions outside the USA. Americans are just beginning the downsizing process in regards to vehicle size and engine size. With stagnant wages and the prospect of higher gasoline prices, this trend will continue. So for the near term, the future of the manual tranny is secure.
Now if they can come up with an auto or CVT at the same price as a manual and it works well with small engines (1.5L or less), then I think the end will be near.
Just for reference, my Protege 1.5L can safely tow 1000 lbs. That covers the ATV, firewood, building and gardening supplies, etc. The car averages 35 MPG in mixed driving and still gets 25 MPG pulling an ATV.
Do you see the end of the manual in the future at all? Even in 30 years?
Yer gonna have to 'splain that one to me...
-Mathias
Hybrids will probably take over if the costs come down and the reliability of the battery systems are proven. With complex systems likes these, shifting probably needs to be done by a computer and not a manual tranny. So that could definitely speed the demise of the manual.
Another reason many would not consider a manual transmission today is cellphones. Of course this is really bad for safety, but many people routinely drive around town with their phones at their ears. It is pretty difficult to shift, steer, and makes turns with one hand on the phone.
It will be a sad day when manuals are no longer for sale in the car market. It is probably inevitable.
I agree it will be a sad day if manuals get to the point where they are no longer an option. It will be a sad day if they even get to the point where you have to order one from the factory as an option to get one. However unless computer assisted manuals become more cost effective and common I don't see a bright future for manuals.
steine13, I simply meant that the US has a higher GNP and average household income than Europe. We also have a less intrusive government when it comes to personal choice. For the US to become more like Europe we as a nation would have to take a step back in personal freedoms and economic freedoms. Our economy would have to get a lot worse as well. That is a whole new debate I am sure.
The very purpose of automobile transmission is to match the engine to the driving wheel for optimal torque.
In the past (3 speed auto), manual matching is always better than auto to fulfill that purpose.
Currently (6 speed auto), manual matching is better for very experienced drivers and auto is better for the rest.
In the future, cars will be driven by electric motors powered by fuel-cells or batteries. There may not be a transmission needed, since electric motors have amazing torque. Even if a transmission is needed, there will be a computer controlled electro-magnetic twin-motor CVT that no human beings can match. Then, sticking to manual would be like using your own family pillows instead of airbags.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if the time ever comes when the last manual transmission equipped car is about to be phased out of production; I'll order enough of them to hopefully last the rest of my life. Then again, with any luck I'll get rich enough to start a small niche business of retrofitting whatever cars are then on the road with manual transmissions. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
I guess it is just how you look at it, but I believe Americans can easily adapt to smaller cars. Most people will just buy the automatic version.
I know the problems with manuals in fleets can most often be atributed to bad drivers but you have to live with that and automatics have saved us thousands in down time and mechanic costs with the veryu same drivers.
To give you another industry example, my sister is a driver for OCTD and drives a bus. She hasn't had to drive a manual bus in the last fifteen years, not even once. So whatever the theory is it must work. However living in California we have a second problem. Manufacturers are limited in the number of manual heavy duty 3/4 and 1 ton trucks they can sell. At least that is the excuse they gave my secretaries husband when he bought his F-250. He got one of the last manuals our dealer had to sell and this was in July.
I will admit I haven't a clue as to why automatics are recommended by the manufacturers for towing, but I know as long as I have to manage the budget for my fleet and for my drivers we will not be going back to manuals.
I do foresee the point coming when autos will be the standard transmissions and we will have to pay extra for optional manuals - the Corvette and GTO are already like that right? Personally, I would be willing to pay at least the current premium for an auto trans, to get a manual.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I understand it. There are people collecting vacuum tube computers outthere.
But the new generation of kids will move on, REAL FAST. :lemon:
No more manuals at some point in the future? Not to worry. I love driving my 5-sp manual Acura RSX every day, and I don't worry about tomorrow.
In April I am going to Britain on the Green, a car show in Alexandria VA for enthusiasts of British sports cars. I don't have the ambition to get an old TR250 or TR6, but I might want to rent one for a few hours just to see how it would feel to drive one again.
Sure, I can agree with many of the reasons (traffic jams, etc.) but I don't spend much time in large traffic tie ups. Plus, autos just drive me nuts. They lug, never seem to be in the right gear, shift at the wrong times, etc.
Frankly, I know what I want the car to be doing, and prefer to decide what gear and when it should be in it.
I did find the DSG to be a neat feature, but even that lacks "subtelty" That is, it's more of an on/off switch. THe clutch attached to my left leg is just such an effiecient power modulator.
The Accord I have now is such a smooth, light clutch and tranny, that you hardly even notice when you shift. I would never consider owning a 4 cyl. AT car. I had some loaner Corolla and Camry ATs, and they were very annoying (to put it politely).
I might be a dinosaur, but I'll be the dino buying Bobsts' stick shift for my 10 year old when he (Bob, not the 10 year old) goes to the great golf course in the sky.
I'm proud that my 14 YO sone told me that he doesn't care what care he gets in a few years when he gets his license, so long as it is a stick (of course, he could just have been sucking up..). Nice thing is, the front runner for his first wheels is my 74 YO mothers old Saturn 5 speed. I just have to convince her to get the Mini she really wants to repalce it so he can have it!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Stick, you will have to wait in line to get the stick shift out of my cold dead hands. My wife, son, and daughter all drive manuals. Maybe I will be able to teach my grandaughter too.
About the golf course in the sky, I did hear of one guy who died and woke up on a fabulous golf course. He went out and played and shot 65, the best round of his life. He played several more days and shot 65 every day.
He said to another fellow he met, "Every day I shoot 65. Heaven is wonderful!"
The other guy said, "65 every time you play? You're in hell."
The thing I discovered with my one ill-conceived venture into an automatic is that even if you do spend a lot of time in those annoying situations, the price of the automatic is still just too high.
killerbunny: those Gen Yers are the real problem: they grew up expecting driving to be like their video games, and now the car companies are working their hardest to live up to that expectation!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I believe Nippon is target on with the game boy generation. They want everything fly by wire and expect to master every machine they own in a matter of minutes, let alone days. Some of them have parents that extol the virtues of , driving pleasure, but they are few and far between. The generation that took weekend drives just for fun are dying out and the generation that will take their place expects to be entertained, and quickly at that.
I have done my part. Over the last two years I have taught three kids how to drive manuals. None of their parents even own a manual so I volunteered so they could make a qualified choice when they got their first car. I will keep trying but to date can you guess how many have a manual for their first car? Exactly none, that is how many. One girl got a civic, automatic, one got a Trooper, automatic and one got a F-150 with you guessed it.
Of all my friends there are a few manuals in the bunch but only my wife drives a stick even with several of her friends owning Subarus.
I have to tell a story that adds insult to injury. we were over at a friends for dinner with several other couples. One mans wife told my wife that we should get a pair of quads so we could go riding with the group. I was thrilled because the idea came from someone other than me. My wife couldn't object to a girlfriends suggestion. The next words out of the same woman's mouth stunned me. She told my wife that her husband bought her a quad and it comes with a automatic so she finally decided riding was fun. What's next? Automatic motor cycles?
IIRC, your wife's car was a Quest of the 99-02 variety. I had one of those last year and may get one again; it had the best automatic I've ever owned. Hardly ever in the wrong gear; quick enough to downshift once that it rarely had to go two gears... very pleasant.
I'm glad I'm back to a stick, though.
-Mathias
Even the first real "family" car, bought when we had the first kid, was a stick shift Legacy SW. Talk about an odd ball.
The wife did OK with a stick, but was never a fanatic about it. We only moved into an AT when child # came along, and we bacame part of the Minivan generation. I doubt she will ever go back, but maybe when we are empty nesters and she wants to drive the sporty car...
Mathias, the Quest did OK with being in the right gear, although with a 4 speed AT, undersized engine and all the weight, it did have to work pretty hard and drop down quick. Our current van ('05 Odyssey) is actually very nice shifting for an AT, assuming it doesn't crap out at 40K miles!
And yes, if they made a sport version with the 6 speed and Brembos from a TL, I would be first in line at the dealer to leave a deposit.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
But the new generation of kids will move on, REAL FAST.
So in your view of the world, the new generation of kids will forego the enjoyment of actually driving a sports car like my former Honda S2000 6-speed or current 911 S 6-speed. Or even my relatively sporty Acura TL 6-speed? In favor of a slushbox or CVT transmission? Poor kids.
Fortunately, I don't think so. Neither do my 8 and 10 year old daughters. The younger of which mastered a 1-2 and 2-1 shifts from the passenger side of the S2000 when she was 5. While they both use their Apple Powerbook to do homework and research, neither has ever owned a Gameboy or played video games. They have 6 and 12 speed bikes, respectively. The manual shifting kind. And they go REAL FAST.
If you see an automatic transmission as a Pentium like advancement, that's your perogative. I suspect similar thinking existed 40 years ago when polyester was going to wipe out demand for real wool and silk. And vinyl siding would wipe out the demand for real stone, stucco and brick. :lemon:
For the record, Skip Barber does not teach performance driving courses on automatic transmission cars. Whether it's just the enjoyment of rowing your own, or the dynamic performance advantages manuals offer, I don't expect the coming generation to abandon them. While the chip may be better than the tube in my laptop, not everyone thinks vinyl, polyester, or CVT's are similar "advancements". At least not relative to the criteria important to them.
Still, a DSG is still more satisfying to drive than a normal slushbox. Just not as satisfying as having the third pedal.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
To my way of thinking, an automatic by any other name is still an automatic. True the DSG provides a fully mechanical linkage between engine and wheels, but it can shift for itself, meaning that it is just a fancy and efficient Automatic. ;-)
Best Regard,
Shipo
While I understand the statement it no longer has the power it once had. When we debated this subject earlier people said that paddle shifters like the SMG were fine for purely performance cars but not for daily drivers. I don't think we can have it both ways.
We have to admit that something has put the manual transmission in the basement as far as car sales go and simply denying that they are at a disadvantage isn't going to make the sales numbers change. The kids we have been talking about have embraced racing differently than those of us have in the past. WRC and F-1 is the preferred racing format along with ALMS in these forums. How many F-1, WRC and ALMS Daytona Prototypes have third pedal shifters? This new manual without a clutch has become the dominate transmission in racing. If Barber doesn't teach it maybe he needs to get in a F-1 without one and try racing again.
There is a lot of passion from people on this subject but we keep avoiding the question, why is the manual a second class transmission in the US? It is simple if we take personal passion out of our debate. If you own a Video store and you sell Beta Max and VHS after a while you notice most people seem to rent VHS. So you stock more VHS and have fewer choices in Beta Max. After a while you decide Beta isn't worth stocking at all. Many have said Beta was a better format but people simply didn't support it so the few Beta fans are left without a choice.
Manuals may not fade as quickly as Beta did but they are being attacked from two sides. Automatics and CVTs on one side, representing ease of use and ease of control for the greenies interested with maximum pollution to the last degree, on one side. ( The poster child of the greenie cause is the Prius and it is not even offered with a manual.) SMG and other electrohydraulic transmissions on the other side, representing maximum sporting ability and optional shifting on the other. Manuals will simply have to rely on passion of people in forums like this to survive. Without it they have nothing to offer in the future. And no, I have no idea how long the future is I am talking about it just seems inevitable.
1. The vacuum tube computers are obsolete by the standards of a modern mainframe (or PC), while the automatic is still trying to catch up with the capabiities of the manual.
2. Vacuum tube are coming back into vogue in certain applications, becuase it turns out they work better in certain ablications.
Does having a fluid clutch (torque converter) designate it as an automatic, even if you have to paddle throught the gears?
Is it the third pedal? If its a fully fuctional manual transmission/clutch, but a computer pushes the clutch for you (F1 style) does that make it a semi-automatic?
They anounced the death of the manual 50 years ago, and as Mark Twain said, "Reports of my death have been greatly exagerated".
-juice
To bring the question up to date, how about the DSG and such transmissions? They can indeed shift themselves, or you can shift them. In either case they employ a clutch, and a direct connection (no torque converter) between the engine and wheels. From the driving point of view, they act like a shiftable automatic. However, they eliminate the most annoying (for me) aspect of an automatic, which is that wretched torque converter, which keeps me from being able to accurately fine tune the speed of the car using the accelerator. Therefore, although I would miss the involvement of my left foot in the driving experience, I think of these DSG type transmission as being closer to a full manual than to an automatic. How do others feel? Is the distinguishing feature of an automatic vs. a stick:
a) the absence of a clutch
b) the ability to choose gears by itself
c) something else?
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
Premise: Nowhere in the etymology of the word "Automatic" is there any reference to hydraulics and torque converters. That having been said, the following is the most applicable definition of said word: "2: having a self-acting or self-regulating mechanism". So, with the actual definition of "Automatic" in mind, the question that I use that builds upon my baseline premise is:
Can the transmission automatically determine when shifts are required and then shift for itself with no intervention from the driver?
With that question as the baseline decision point, the following transmissions would be rated accordingly:
Automatic: Fluid coupled transmission with Torque Converter
Automatic: Computer controlled dry plate clutch and shift mechanism controlling a mechanical gearbox (BMW's SMG)
Automatic: Computer controlled dual wet plate clutches and shift mechanism controlling a mechanical gearbox (Audi's DSG)
Manual: Any 3, 4, 5, or 6-Speed transmission with clutch pedal (including the "Three on the tree")
Now, as for the old VW AutoStick (not really relevant here as it is long since out of production), I'm thinking that it is nearer a manual than an automatic simply because unlike the DSGs and SMGs of the world, it cannot shift for itself. Is it still a full manual? Nope, not in my book, instead, it is the single exception that I'm aware of that doesn't nicely slot into either the Manual or Automatic category.
Best Regards,
Shipo
But then many would disagree on your definition.
-Mathias
Oh, add to your list a CVT. That's an AT also.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.