The Future Of The Manual Transmission

carlisimo

For people who've driven both, is 6 speeds really that great? Five seems like it'd be plenty, and 5+R fills up a triple H pattern. Six gears leads to tight and scary shift gates.

On the Miata for example, everyone says the 5-spd is smoother and easier to use. And its 4th gear has the same ratio as the 6-spd's 5th, which sounds pretty pointless to me.

But you tell me. I haven't tried either configuration (and no, four isn't enough, but a fifth on top of these four would be).

habitat1

Six gears leads to tight and scary shift gates.

I don't think that's the case. Reverse in 6th gear is either to the left and up or to the right and down, but the shift gates for forward gears is improved, IMO.

I happen to stongly prefer my Acura TL's 6-speed over my old Nissan Maxima's 5-speed, primarily because the Acura's gearbox is a very crisp, short throw one compared to the mushier long throw Maxima. The extra gear ratio in the TL does allow the TL (3,450 lbs and 270hp) to achieve comparable highway mileage to the Maxima (3,005 lbs and 190 hp), but they probably could have come close with a 5 speed.

The 6 speeds on my former Honda S2000 and current 911S appear to be much more functional and precisely engineered to match the car. In the case of the 355hp 911, it has been timed at 0-60 in 3.9 seconds by C&D and achieves its top speed of 182 mph precisely at 7,200 rpm redline in 6th gear. That is pretty amazing performance from "only" 355 hp and 295 ft lbs of torque.

There are other cars, such as the base Corvette, that lug along at under 2,000 rpm in 6th gear at 75 mph and have to be downshifted once, if not twice to reach maximum performance. IMO, that is jackhammer engineering, compared to Porsche's precision scalpel. Chevy engineers have 7 liters, 400 hp and 400 ft-lbs of torque to work with and throw a 6 speed into the mix without a whole lot of effort to match the gear ratios to the engine.

When they go to 7 or 8 speed manuals, they've gone too far. But IMO, the 6 speeds I drive are worth the extra gear change.

ateixeira

First of all, kudos to Nissan for offering this.

It all depends on how the shift feel is tuned, but if they gear them right the 6th could be just cruising gear, really tall for fuel economy.

Reverse could be engaged by pushing down on the shifter, then left and up. I've seen that done so that it feels nothing at all like 1st gear.

I hope Nissan nails this and it's reliable, that should actually be a very fun entry level car, plus it's bigger than the Fit or Yaris.

-juice

nippononly

I hope that is EXACTLY what Nissan has done. So many of these small cars with small engines are geared for performance, even the family-oriented ones, so that the engine is turning 3000 rpm at 60 in top gear. Many could use a really tall overdrive gear for loafing down the highway, which after all doesn't require a whole lot of horsepower to maintain.

I am all for 6-speed manuals, and I'm glad they have begun to appear in lower-priced cars, rather than just very performance-oriented cars.

I figure with the shift of the market so heavily towards automatics, we won't see much more development of manual transmissions, so I don't expect the market to get beyond six forward gears, which is fine. Six is enough for most applications.

I read the comparo of the IS350 and the 330i in Autoweek a few days back, and noticed that the press (at least this press) is still criticizing Lexus for not making a manual available in that model - you GO Autoweek! The press will always want them, even if the buying public doesn't as much...

ateixeira

I thought that review was a bit unfair, the Lexus was significantly quicker and averaged 6mpg better than the Bimmer.

-juice

potemkin

"Six gears leads to tight and scary shift gates."

Not necessarily. Both my '95 318ti & my '05 325i have similar 5 speed transmissions (but different ratios on the differentials) with Reverse being left and forwards. The 6 speeds in the M3 and the 330i have the same configuration except that the added sixth gear occupies the empty spot behind 5th -- no extra shift gate required.

bobst

Most 5-speeds have three gates - 5 gears with reverse being just below fifth.

A 6-speed would need four gates, which might make the gates closer together. I have read several postings about people in 6-speed Acura RSXs going from 5th to 2nd and blowing up their engines.

I don't think this happened with the 'three-on-the-tree" cloumn shifters in my day.

ateixeira

The gates aren't necessarily closer. They could just add to the total range of motion, i.e. a farther reach for reverse.

-juice

carlisimo

So at what speeds do you guys typically shift at?

My shift speeds are usually 15, 30, and 50.

shipo

"Most 5-speeds have three gates - 5 gears with reverse being just below fifth."

Hmmm, I've had nine new cars with 5-Speeds, and I've never even had one that had only three shift gates. At least in the cars that I've had, reverse was up and to the left of first, first and second shared a gate, third and fourth shared a gate, and fifth had the right most gate all to itself.

Best Regards,
Shipo

shiphro

Shift speeds? I know what you mean... but that defeats the purpose of having a manual.

I know that at 45 I can be in 6th as long as it's pretty level or downhill. Of course I could also be in 2nd, a split-second away from redline. Or... I could be in 4th, coasting downhill letting the engine and wind resistance keep my velocity constant. Even better, I could be in 3rd as I curl around an on ramp, ready to blip up to highway speeds as soon as the curve straightens.

I know that if I wind it all (or nearly all) the way up in third... I'm exceeding all speed limits within a thousand miles.

If I'm driving conservatively, I'll upshift at 2200rpm.
If I'm driving to get somewhere, I'll upshift at 4000rpm.
If I'm trying to be an idiot, I shift right before I bump into the redline.

Speed is secondary to rpms when it comes to shifting. Of course that might explain my driving record.

qbrozen

manufacturers can do whatever they want.

I think some VWs may be as you described.

but my alfa and my old 4runner were both as bobst described.

the differences in gearboxes is also why, in some cases, 6-speeds have very tightly spaced gates, and, in others, they don't.

Viva la difference.

shipo

No doubt about the different manufacturers deciding on their own how to implement the traditional "H" pattern. I wasn't trying to say that Reverse never showed up below fifth, it's just that MANY cars don't follow that pattern. Thinking about this a little more I find myself wondering if 6 gears have long been considered an inevitability and some manufacturers (BMW for instance) decided to keep the lower right slot open for the sixth gear. Nah, probably not.

As a side note, I remember when Porsche was putting the reverse and first gears in the same gate with a pattern like this:

R 2 4
| _|_ |
| _|_ |
1 3 5

Given that I learned how to drive a stick with a "Three on the Floor", that pattern always made sense to me, I just could never afford one. :-(

Best Regards,
Shipo

carlisimo

I don't have a tachometer.

And I'm just asking about normal driving. Obviously we can choose to shift whenever we want, which is how I manage to get 25mpg in my Sentra that could get 38mpg.

By asking what speeds people shift at, I'm trying to get an idea what it's like to have a 5 or 6 spd transmission.

PF_Flyer

Even with a tach in my Altima, the shifts come when they need to come for me. I guess my general rule is thatI like to get into 5th gear as soon as practical and keep it in 5th as long as possible.

Speaking of Sentra mileage, I filled up today and last tank got 37mpg, basically all around town trips. Apparently 224,000 miles keeps things loosened up! :P

qbrozen

Same here, my first vehicle, 3-speed CJ7, had reverse on top of 1st. Relearning after that to start a vehicle with the stick in the top-left position was a chore. By now, of course, I'd have a heck of a time going back to bottom-left.

bumpy

So at what speeds do you guys typically shift at?

Back when I had the '88 Sentra (5-speed, no tach) I shifted around 15,25,35,and 45, which was lowballing it for a 1.6L.

In the Accent, I don't pay too much attention to the speedo until I shift into 5th at 60mph. 2nd at 4000rpm, 3rd at 3500, and 4th around 3200 (which is probably about 15, 35, and 50mph). I let the SE-R run up close to 5000rpm or so unless I want to show off, then I'll run it up to 7300 rpm in 2nd and drop it into 5th @ 60mph.

bumpy

At least in the cars that I've had, reverse was up and to the left of first, first and second shared a gate, third and fourth shared a gate, and fifth had the right most gate all to itself.

That must be some Euro thing. Every Asian or domestic 5-speed I've ever seen had reverse under 5th in the third gate. Interestingly, the new Hyundai Accent manual has the pattern you described.

ateixeira

Depends, for peak mileage I shift at around 3200 rpm or so, it's enough that the engine never bogs down. But if I'm accelerating the torque is just starting to build up, so I'll go as high as I need to go, some times all the way up to redline!

Shake loose any carbon build-up. They call it an Italian tune-up.

-juice

michaellno

Varies with the car. When I was driving our New Beetle (2.0 SOHC gas engine, 115 HP), I would wring it out a bit more to get the most from the engine; in the Focus (2.0 DOHC gas engine, 130 HP), it makes revs faster so I only take it to 3000 to 3500 RPM's before shifting.

Also, the flywheel on the VW was bigger or different, because it would hold onto the rev's longer after the clutch was depressed.

ateixeira

Good point, the Miata does require a few extra revs. Peak torque does not happen until 5500rpm, so you gotta wring it out.

-juice

andys120

R 2 4
|_|_|
|_|_|
1 3 5

Porsche uses a race car gearshift pattern. You don't often go from 1st to 2nd during a race but
the 2-3 or 3-2 shift is common so they're in a straight line. For street use I think it's best to keep reverse out of the way, off to the side.

shipo

Yeah, I knew that Porsche used the three-gate pattern due to racing. That of course begs the question, "Now that 6-Speed transmissions are the norm, what shift pattern does Porsche use?"

Best Regards,
Shipo

nippononly

in the Echo, which doesn't have a tach, I shift at 15, 25, 40, and 50 when I am in a gas-saver mood, or 20, 30-35, 45-50, 60 for more peppy acceleration.

By coincidence, the 4Runner is geared so that the shift speeds are pretty much identical, only in that one those shifts come at lower revs: around 2500 rpm (gas-saver) or 3000 rpm (peppier), which is OK because the engine is so torquey. In the Echo, those shifts are at higher rpm in both cases, just using my ear and the seat of my pants to tell.

habitat1

The Boxster / 911 shift pattern is:

R 1 3 5
2 4 6

I think that is also the pattern on the Carrera GT. I'll see if I can't take one out for a test drive to check it out for myself.

callmedrfill

In my Integra, which is supposed to be 25/31, I get around 27. 65/35, hwy/city mix.

My Neon before got 22-23MPG, supposed to be 27/35. More city driving, doh.

But I drove from NY to Tampa in it doin 75-80, got 30.

I generally shift at 3000. Try to be in 5th by 50.

No tach, no sale, to me anyway. That p---es me right off! What are ya doin'?

That's like Kool-Aid, no sugar! Peanut Butter, no Jelly!

D*&$!

DrFill

carlisimo

5th by 50 - that seems like a lot of shifting. Personally, I think most transmissions have 2nd and 3rd gears right. It's 4th and above that they don't know what to do with.

I think my ideal gear spacing would be as follows. I'm gonna write them as a speed range, with the first number being when you'd shift into the gear (driving conservatively), and the second number being redline.

1st: 0-25
2nd: 10-52
3rd: 25-75
4th: 40-95
5th: 60-125
6th: 75+

That 2nd gear strikes me as low, but it matches how I use my gears. The benefit would be that you could stay in 2nd going around a slow corner instead of shifting to first, which I think most people avoid. The downside (for the manufacturer) is that you have to shift to third to get a 0-60 time, which will make it seem slow to people who just look at numbers. Hence most cars' 62mph 2nd gear redline (an extra 2mph to reach 100kph and make a good impression in European magazines too). It'd also mean more shifting for autocrossers, but more power coming out of 20-30mph turns.

In most cars, with 2nd redlining at 62mph, and 5th gear beginning at 50mph, I think 3rd and 4th gear are too close. Even in my scheme here, 4th seems to be of limited use.

I'm tempted to reserve 5th gear to speeds of 60mph and up (lugging at 50). Oh what the heck, this is my ideal transmission, I'll set it that way.

If you're going to sell the car internationally, you need an autobahn gear. Something to let you cruise at 120mph. That's my sixth gear. You could also use it on those 90mph trips.

Now you'll all think that driving 4-spd tachless cars has messed with my head...

lilengineerboy

I tend to short shift alot, 2nd at 10, 3rd at 20, 4th at 31, 5th at 41 (this was the recommending shifting for my '89 Galant, and I got used to it). In a '93 Accord, it puts mileage in the low 30s, higher if I am more disciplined about it.
We bought our Subaru Legacy because it was a AWD/5spd wagon, and there was no way we could afford a German one. The Mazda6 is available as a manual trans wagon (a real one with a clutch), but was harder for shorter drivers to see.
I don't know what I'm going to get to replace that Accord, prolly a WRX sedan to get AWD and a stick again.

kyfdx

All my Honda 5-speeds were

1 3 5
2 4 R

I really liked my CJ-5...

R 2
1 3

Mustang II V-8

R 1 3
2 4

For the life of me, I can't remember the shift pattern on the '84 911... I don't remember 1st being directly below reverse.. but, I guess it could have been.. I thought it was:

R 1 3 5
2 4

regards,
kyfdx

benjaminh

It's nice to see 6 speed manuals popping up on more cars. Having never driven one, I can imagine they'd be faster, more fun, more economical, and I suppose more work to.

I wonder what the odds will be that the 8th generation Accord, due in 2008, will have a 6-speed, even on the base model?

Consumer Reports in it's last few issues has been supporting manual transmissions. I think one issue said that for those who could drive manual the benefits were more fun and greater economy. Here's what they say in the Feb. issue (p.61):

"...opting for a manual typically improves fuel economy and acceleration. With 31 mpg overall, the manual Civic EX's fuel economy is close to that of a Jetta TDI. Manual transmission vehicles also cost less than their automatic versions."

Now that's saying it like it is.

bobst

I have a 2003 Acura RSX 5-sp. The car also comes in a 6-sp.

The sales brochure had the gear ratios. The 5-sp and 6-sp had the same ratios for first gear. The ratio for 5th gear in the 5-sp was the same as 6th gear in the 6-sp.

That means gears 2,3,4 in my 5-sp tranny are replaced by gears 2,3,4,5 in the 6-sp. Do you see any point to that?

I think a tall 6-th gear in a car that is often driven at 100+ mph makes sense. In most cars it doesn't.

explorerx4

doesn't have the 'sport package', so no tach. it does have an 'upshift light'. i rarely see it go on. if it thinks you are adding throttle on purpose, it goes out.

nippononly

In the case of the RSX, the type-S has different engine management that generates much more power over 6200 rpm than the base engine does. Therefore, it needs more gears to keep the engine "on the cam" when going up through the gears.

In the base engine, torque peaks around 4200 rpm and horsepower plateaus soon after. No need to rev that one so high or keep the revs high from gear to gear, hence less gears.

steine13

WHAT???
I thought the "upshift" idiot light went out 20 years ago. What a miserable idea... if I want the car to tell me what to do, I'll get an auto.

Do the Foci with tachometer also have this stupid thing? I've never driven one but I always thought I'd snap up a ZTW wagon if I could find one with a stick.

But not with the light.

-Mathias

PF_Flyer

Maybe it's just us, but my wife, myslef, and now my duaghter really don't consider it "extra work" to drive a stick. Heh... I like to tell people that I DO have an automatic tranny... it's just that my brian is the part that's handling the automatic end. I REALLY don't think about shifting, it just happens.

Of course there IS a downside. On those rare occassions when we have a rental vehicle with an automatic, my poor left leg doesn't know what to do with itself! :P

callmedrfill

Yeah, I noticed that CR issue.

They tested Auto and Manual Civics:

Auto: 28MPG, 10.1 second 0-60

MT: 31MPG, 8.6 0-60

If that doesn't say "Smarten up! Learn how to DRIVE!", nothin' will!

If I have to rent a car, or go a long distance in a car that's not mine, I always let someone else drive. I wouldn't soil myself in "Slush"!

And if I'm out with friends, I drink just enough so I can't be a "Double-D". Why have fun, then dred the ride home?

DrFill

habitat1

"Of course there IS a downside. On those rare occassions when we have a rental vehicle with an automatic, my poor left leg doesn't know what to do with itself!"

Mine usually stomps on the brake by accident while my right hand tries to row an automatic transmission. At least we all get to test the automatically tightening seat belts.

michaellno

I have an '03 Focus ZX5 with a tach, and yes, it too has the idiot 'upshift' light.

What I find amusing is that if you don't upshift, the light will go out after a few seconds.

There are times when it wants me to shift into 5th gear at something like 35MPH. Uh, no, thanks, I prefer to decide for myself when to up or down shift.

nippononly

suck. I would tape over it. :-)

I always stomp the dead pedal real hard when starting the engine in an automatic. That is pretty much all the jarring reminder I need that "this car has no clutch!". :-P

potemkin

A '73 MG Midget & an '82 Mustang GT:

R 1 3
|_|_|
| |
2 4

An '87 Mustang GT, a '95 318ti and an '05 325i:

R 1 3 5
|_|_|_|
| |
2 4

The six speed in a M-B C230:

R 1 3 5
|_|_|_|
| | |
2 4 6

ubbermotor

I can shift the 5-speed in my pickup (not the leader in reminement here*) with my right pinky. I know, becuase I do it on a fairly reqular basis as I'm to lazy to put down my Mcjuckfood.

To me referring to a manual as to much work translates to "I'm not a good enough driver to steer and engage the turn signal at the same time". The work load is about the same.

No manual is the only thing that turns me off the Charger. I like BMW's way of doing. Same amount of gears, same price, your choice. (okay, so the manual should still be cheaper).

*Either transmission or driver.

boaz47

Paddles have all the advantages of both. Look at WRC cars and the New ALMS cars. F-1 doesn't count because I have never even been close to one let alone had a chance to sit in one. But even the old MR-2 would put a smile on your face when running a tight course like Laguna Secca. Not good enough to drive a three pedal? Ever seen what happens when the paddles malfunction in a WRC car and they have to change to shifting on the floor? They get dropped like a bad habit. I know they are too expensive right now but even though both my wife and I have manuals now I would drop my third pedal in a hot second for a paddle shifter. You simply can not get those kind of shifts with a dog leg. Shoot I would drop my H pattern for a sequencial like a WRC car has, even motorcycles have sequencial shifters even with a clutch.

With some of the new SMG, and the like, transmissions 0-60 times can be cut down and still get good fuel mileage. Besides manuals work fine but they are old tech. I believe I read somewhere that Daimler is offering a Seven speed automatic. Can you picture as gate on a manual for seven speeds. And the Mini is now selling quite a few vehicles in europe with the CVT and only a drop of one MPG for all the ease of driving.

If the cars of the future are to advance is there a great chance that the transmission we all know and love won't be left behind? After all it wouldn't cost as much for a CVT as a manual if they were as massed produced as much as a manual. Plus a CVT offers as many shift points as you desire so they can be geared for any sized motor, or powerplant for that matter. The Manual transmission may be with us fro years to come but it doesn't look good for that third pedal if we move to green machines or even better manuals like ones with paddle shifters.

shipo

"Paddles have all the advantages of both."

Sorry, I do not agree. Paddle shifted cars (regardless of whether they are of the DSG/SMG design from Audi/BMW or of the slushbox ilk from the likes of the IS350) are programmed to shift at a given (or pre-selected) level of intensity. With the third pedal the driver can dynamically adjust the speed of the shift and the aggressiveness of the clutch engagement on a shift by shift basis as conditions (or the drivers desires) dictate. Smooth and easy one shift, hard chargin'-gear slammin' the next, and anywhere in-between beyond that.

For my part, I simply cannot see how any electronic nanny is going to be able to anticipate what I want in my next shift until such electronic devices can read my mind. No thanks, I much prefer the H pattern and three pedals if you please.

Best Regards,
Shipo

boaz47

I am sure people that preferred a three on the tree said the same thing. If a Ferrari can come stock with a paddle shifter and people are willing to pay that kind of money for them they must work just fine in the rarefied atmousphear. And a computer assisted transmission and be programed for ultra sporty or cruising mode at the flip of a switch. You could be correct that it may not happen. But once the big guys start playing with the new stuff it often makes it to the general public. The very idea that they are messing with paddle shifters on street cars indicate someone thinks the manual can be improved. And as far as the greenies are concerned, a computer and be programed for maximum clean burning far easier than your left foot.

shipo

"And a computer assisted transmission and be programmed for ultra sporty or cruising mode at the flip of a switch."

That was exactly my point. With these new flappy-doo automatic transmissions, the driver needs to flip some kind of a switch or move some kind of selector to change the shift smoothness. Once changed, that mode stays in effect until changed again. Yuk! :P With a true manual the driver gets control of the shift intensity on a shift by shift basis, as in RIGHT NOW, without the need to fiddle with a switch.

As for converting from "Three-on-the-Tree" to a floor mounted shifter, I seriously doubt that anybody complained. That change simply improved the usefulness of the existing design but didn't in anyway change the metaphor for shifting.

Best Regards,
Shipo

bobst

"As for converting from "Three-on-the-Tree" to a floor mounted shifter, I seriously doubt that anybody complained."

Shipo, you must not recall the sedans in the late 50's and early 60's that were big enough to fit 3 adults in the front seat. Three-on-the-tree made sense in those cars.

Heck, even the tail fins were bigger than some litle snotty cars I see on the road these days.

shipo

"Shipo, you must not recall the sedans in the late 50's and early 60's that were big enough to fit 3 adults in the front seat. Three-on-the-tree made sense in those cars."

No, I do indeed remember, now that you've jogged my memory that is. That having been said, everybody that I've ever known that utilized "Three across" seating also had an Automatic transmission with a column mounted control lever.

The flip side of the above was the status of having a "Four on the Floor" instead of the "Three on the Tree". Being a little younger back then, the floor mounted 4-Speed shifter was the coolest of cool amongst my peers. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

boaz47

aHH, The word I was looking for, status. The WRC cars have been a darling with the "younger" set you mentioned and the status of a true paddle shifter would be like catnip to Subaru and Mitsubishi Drivers. Face it would could be cooler to the new generation? Now four on the floor is unheard of. Six is common and how long before they come up with something even newer. In our country things have to be new or better of very easy. The glut of Automatics fall into the last category. Automatics outsell manuals three of four to one. In fact if you move up to a V-6, move up is what the manufacturers and dealers call it not necessarily me, you have to get an automatic because some cars don't offer a manual. No mini vans come with a manual and I can't remember the last SUV, big or small I have seen with a manual, I am sure some of the smallest ones have them but in my area the dealers make you order them special. So I would ask, if cool is what someone was looking for how much cooler can you get than a paddle shifter. If easy is what you like how much easier does it get than a automatic?

Don't get me wrong, I have manuals and have had them for years. My F-250 Powerstroke is the only automatic in the family. But I have seen the direction the industry seems to be headed in this country and something other that the third pedel will have to happen to save the manual for most buyers today. Shoot you only have to listen to Nippons cheer as some manufacturer decided to offer a manual in a new release to see how rare they have become. Today standard transmission tends to indicate an automatic. I read somewhere that the Honda civic comes standard with a manual but the automatic is ordered 80 percent of the time as an option. That happens so often that dealers only stock 5 of ten percent of their Civics with manuals. I haven't tested this out but I believe Nippon said something similar about a dealer in his area.

cdnpinhead

While I really (really) enjoy driving a manual, I took a single shot at an automatic for my own car, and reliability turned out to be the real issue. Not only was it less fun/satisfying to drive. . .but it broke & cost $2K to fix, and this was six years ago.

I'm currently driving one of the 9 (or maybe it's 17) Lincoln LS's ever produced with a manual. It has almost 92K miles on the original clutch, and when it needs to be replaced, it'll be a lot less expensive than rebuilding or replacing an automatic transmission.

So, it's not just the lack of driving satisfaction that drives me away from automatics (or SMG's, CVT's or LMNOP's), it's the lack of robustness/relaibility/maintainability. These new-technology automatics (that'd be anything without a third pedal) need a lot more troublefree miles & years on them before I'll sign on.

They may cost more and not be as much fun to drive, but at least they don't work (every time, for 150K miles).

nippononly

"I know they are too expensive right now but even though both my wife and I have manuals now I would drop my third pedal in a hot second for a paddle shifter. You simply can not get those kind of shifts with a dog leg"

Of course, you also get the "advantage" of driving in traffic, jerking along with lunges large enough to shake the Coke right OUT of your Big Gulp because the computer-operated TC-free manuals just aren't designed for this type of thing.

Half the time you get computers that make gear changes for you despite what you are doing with the "paddles", because someone thought the computer would know better than the driver in certain situations or because redline is just TOO high for the engine to actually spin!

Why do you advocate for taking some portion of control of the vehicle OUT of the driver's hands, and giving it to a computer with a limited scope for making decisions?

For anyone who goes to the track, a paddle-shifted true manual might be the way to go, but that is a tiny percentage of regular drivers. For them, I can easily see why they might choose the paddles over the shifter. For everybody else, it is just the auto industry's way of pleasing enthusiasts who are getting too lazy to shift for themselves any longer, while seeming "high tech" in the process.

And Boaz, it is true that most Honda dealers, BMW too, in my area rarely stock manual shift cars, despite the rep of these two companies for making driver's cars, and for selling more manuals than most other companies.

However, my closest Honda dealer has recently begun to surprise me, ordering a healthy mix of Accord and Civic manuals. Maybe they are changing their evil ways...

:-)