The Future Of The Manual Transmission

nippononly

stick for more than 20 years, and on the steepest hills in San Francisco, I STILL use the handbrake to hold the vehicle on uphill starts. It's just easier, and less wearing on the clutch, I feel. Not to mention, when I am in the truck, that initial roll backwards when I come off the foot brake can happen pretty fast! :surprise:

stickguy

SF steep hills are a special case. I rarely get stuck on a hill of that magnitude, so using the handbrake isn't required that often.

bhill2

The handbrake option is a lifesaver (or at least a clutchsaver). I advise that it be practiced so that you feel comfortable using it when you need it. Once it is mastered, you can comfortably start in any uphill situation; makes driving a stick that much easier.

ubbermotor

I confess, I'm a clutch rider when stopping on a hill. It could be becuase I'm lazy, or it could be from my days driving big rigs (Set the air brakes at stop sigh?) I've never had a clutch not last at least 100,000 miles. I live in hilly country, but intersections tend to be flat.

steine13

Be glad if you've got one.
My old man used to have an '80 Mercedes 200 with a 4sp stick, and it had the foot brake.

It was the most awkward dance to press the clutch with your left foot, move the lever to neutral, brake with your right foot, set the e-brake with your left foot, and then wait to get going again... take up the clutch, then release the e-brake with your left hand... it was awful on a steep hill.

-Mathias

kyfdx

I've never used the handbrake to keep from rolling back..

I don't live in SF, but it is pretty hilly here..

Maybe you guys just need more practice..

prosa

As far as taking off on hills, same thoery about balance but if your to slow you backwards. Remember, if you come to a stop on a hill and have a foot on the brake, you don't have a third one.
There are 3 answers to handle this.
1. Fast reflexes.
2. Heel and toe the brake and throttle with one foot.
3. Ride the clutch to hold you on the hill.

Option 4: get a Subaru

PF_Flyer

Once you're reasonably adept at driving a stick, the other option on a hill is to realize that you MIGHT drift back 6-12" MAX and it really is more of mental thing than a physical issue you have to worry about.
In other words, it feels like you're sliding back farther than you actually are. I only ever even think about it if someone has pulled up so close behind me that I can't see their headlights in the mirror on a fairly steep hill. Even then, it's gonna be their fault in the arguement that would ensue :P for pulling up too close behind.

lilengineerboy

Subaru doesn't have the "hill holder" clutch anymore, but its still easy enough to drive. You just have to think about what you are doing a little more on hills. Even in SF, I don't use the parking brake on hills unless I am trying to parallel park or something.

wai

If you let the car roll back for 1 foot before the gear is engaged and the car is moved forward uphill, will it create a lot of stress on the clutch that will wear the clutch pretty quick?

PF_Flyer

Actually, I don't think I let it roll back even 6" :P But even a newcomer to manual, once they have learned to drive the stick, doesn't get as much backsliding as it feels like to them.

My 17 year old was worried about sliding back when she was learning to drive, so I took her to a steep sidestreet to show her the "worst case scenario". We parked next to a street sign so I could have a reference point. I held my hand out the window about a foot in front of the signpost and told her to drive us away and I would let her know how far back the car slid.
It might have been 8", and that was on her first real attempt at starting up on a hill. I'm VERY comfortable letting her drive :P

But yes, if you continually let the car get backward momentum when starting up, I supose it wouldn't be the greatest thing for the clutch. In defense of the all the clutches out there, we've been driving manuals since 1979, averaging about 175,000 miles per vehicle and we haven't fried a clutch yet. And trust me, I've put a bit of stress on some of them that I probably shouldn't have :P

shipo

The only company that I know of that has a feature like the old Subaru Hill Holder is BMW. In the new E90 3-Series BMW has a "Start-Off assistant" built into their braking system and it is my understanding that this feature will indeed prevent a roll-back, even in San Francisco. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

bobst

When I taught my kids to drive a manual, I made sure they knew how to use the hand brake to hold the car on a hill when letting out the clutch.

I don't do it often, but when I end up on a steep hill and another car has pulled up very close behind me I am glad I know how to do it.

stickguy

I honestly can't remember the last time I did it, except for 1 time just to try it out. After 25 years of exclusive stick use, I'm not even consious of it anymore.

I'm probably like KY. You just get a feel for the car, and basically come off the clutch just enough that it is about to catch as you roll off the brake onto the gas. basically, the clutch engagement is holding you in place as you get onto the gas.

If you feel like using up some of your clutch life, practice holding the car in place on a hill (not rolling or going forward). THis will give you a real good idea about engagement point, etc.

Like anything else, it just takes some practice.

cdnpinhead

of a hand brake is part of the gut check that defines whether a manufacturer (some would say OEM) takes the manual seriously.

Offering a manual is step one, but it has to come with the hand brake. All the serious manuals (even including my '00 Lincoln LS) came with a hand brake. It's for a reason.

When I took my class 8 driver test, it was an outright failure to slide back even a little bit (that would be an inch) during an uphill start.

I won't bore the group with how it's done. My previous offering was left for dead. Sometimes manuals are a way of life, but no one was born knowing how.

The basics are simple. As others have said, take a vehicle to a parking lot and learn how to engage from a standing start at various speeds. All the rest comes with experience.

Enjoy.

andys120

I have never replaced or rebuilt a manual trans in more than 20 years of driving, including many cars over 200K miles.

I've had three occasions of having to replace or repair manual shifts, generally over 120K Miles. Those were the exception of the many stick shift cars I've owned but it does happen (bearing failures).

OTOH I've taken an A/T to 120K with no problems whatever and I fully expect my present Automatic (BMW Steptronic) to do even better.

nippononly

I think a well-taken care of and carefully driven (no shifting into forward gears while still rolling backwards, no throttle-floored launches from stoplights, etc) automatic will go much further than the 100-150K miles I typically expect out of them. Unfortunately, few people both maintain them and take it easy on them.

But I wonder what those shabby manual transmissions were that you had that needed work after 120K miles. They weren't BMWs, were they?

wai

Talking about well-taken care "manual transmission". Do you pedal the gas as soon as you engaged into a higher gear,ie. at the same time as releasing your clutch? or wait after you completley release the clutch?

ubbermotor

yes, depending on which way the wind blows.

wai

Is it you have to pedal the gas immediately upon engagement of gear if you are against the wind?

ubbermotor

:P

When you release the engine speed and transmission shaft speed will need to align. With no throttle the engine will simply drop/raise to match the vehicle speed. By applying throttle your either trying to guess where that rpm is, or your trying to force the rest of the car to catch up with the engine.

Once the clutch is fully engages coast or accelerate at your leisure.

Of course this only applies to modern synchronized transmission. On older/non-synchronized transmission the rpm's have to match, or it wont go into the next gear (At least not without a lot of grinding and the nerves in your elbow twitching).

bhill2

You know, the lack of a hill-holder on most modern manual-equipped cars, either domestic or foreign (Subarus and BMWs excepted as appropriate) simply baffles me. My father's '51 Studebaker had it, and he thought it was great. What happened? I can see where the inexorable move to automatics in the US might have caused it to fall by the wayside, but what about the rest of the world?

nippononly

matching the engine revs to the speed of the car is the way to wear the clutch the least. That isn't always possible, but usually when going up through the gears, you can catch the engine as it begins to fall when you change gears, and it will enter the next gear at just the right revs. This is after you have driven the car for more than ten minutes, and are familiar with the shift points.

prosa

Subaru doesn't have the "hill holder" clutch anymore

:confuse:
My 2006 Subaru Forester certainly has one.

nippononly

certain Subarus still do. Subaru dropped them when they went to the hydraulic clutch. Does the Forester still have a cable clutch?

I guess it's a lot harder or more costly to implement a hill holder on a clutch that has hydraulic lines instead of a cable.

shipo

Hmmm, well speaking strictly for myself, IF I was to by one of the new BMWs with the Hill-Holder feature, and IF it was configurable On/Off (via the iDrive software or some such), I'd turn it off. Why? Well, for the seven times that I could have used such a feature over the last thirty years, I simply used the parking brake. The flip side is when I roll the car back on purpose for one reason or another, the hill-holder would prove to be quite annoying. :-/

Arguing out of the other side of my mouth, I'm a dyed in the wool advocate of manual transmissions and as such, I can easily see how a "Hill-Holder" feature could aid beginners in their quest to master the third pedal. So, from the "training-wheel" aspect, if it convinces even one more person to opt for a stick, then I am absolutely 100% behind the addition of Hill-Holders on all new cars with manual transmissions (especially if they can be turned off at the drivers' convenience).

Best Regards,
Shipo

boaz47

Learning to drive a stick isn't hard. What makes it less popular is our culture. Was it "harder" to turn the TV knob to change channels than it is to use a remote? No it wasn't it was simply less convenient. Is it harder to roll down your window in your car with a crank handle than to have power windows? No it isn't. It is simply easier to use a remote and it is simply easier to have power windows. For the millions of people that drive cars in the US it is simply easier to drive an automatic.

For many years I used to commute in the LA area. Perhaps the most congested freeways in the world. For many of those years I drove a manual. I noticed that most of my fellow co workers drove automatics and like many of the enthusiasts in this forum I wondered why. I believe the answer is that the automatic is easier and that for the most part people look at driving as a necessity rather that something to enjoy. I can remember driving for 30 minutes to an hour next to a whole bevy of other drivers and looking into their cars to see what they were doing as we were sitting side by side waiting to move the 20 feet forward before coming to a complete stop and waiting for up to a minute to start again. Most were drinking their double latte half caf choco mocha whatevers in their starbucks cups and maybe had a pastry on a holder on the dash. Some were singing with the radio or listening to talk shows. When traffic started to move all they did was take the foot off of the brake and, without putting down their coffee or missing a note of their song, moved the few feet forward and stopped. Today you would have to add using the cell phone to the mix. I couldn't do that with a stick because I needed one hand free for the wheel and another for the shifter. And I would often have to do the first gear then just get into second gear then stop two step.

It doesn't matter how we feel about what other drivers should be doing while they are driving it only matters that they have chosen to do what they do. we live in a "to go" society and that society has decided that driving is not a past time but a task and every task should be made easier and require less physical input. The last five years I drove into the LA area I drove an automatic and drank my super 7/11 sized cup of coffee all the way to work. Never once did I have a fender bender and I was far less stressed when I got to work. It was a lot "easier".

When I moved to the mountains I sold my automatic vehicles. Except my truck because there is almost no need for a manual in a full sized truck in "my" opinion. The stick in much nicer to have on the winding twisting mountain roads I drive. And it is more enjoyable. However a few months ago we had some mud slides in my area and on the drive home we would run into some pretty heavy traffic and some delays. We are on a pretty good incline for a 4000 foot climb to my little city and using the hand brake to keep from going back is a pain option when you only get to move a few feet forward at a time. Even I found myself a bit angry with my fellow commuters and wondered if maybe I should have driven the truck to work because the automatic is easier. In a nut shell I believe it is ease of use that has put the manual on the back burner in American society and it will be ease of use that restricts the manuals chances in the future.

Next time you are at a shopping mall count the automatics verses the manuals as you walk from where you park your car and see how many people have decided to buy manuals. And just for extra credit see how many of the women getting out of a car with their kids have manuals. Remember one of the most popular family vehicles seems to be the mini van. Ever seen a mini van with a manual? :confuse:

z142

I see what you mean by liking to drive instead of seeing it as a chore. I think a Mazda3 (I wish) will be much more fun with a manual as soon as I get it and get used to driving it. I just thought learning would be so hard since almost nobody does it now. And... a Mazda3 might make me like it even more.
Thanks everyone for making me less nervous. Maybe I'll have some funny stories to come back and tell while I'm learning.

boaz47

Remember the suggestions everyone has given you but also remember if you test drive a diesel like the VW TDI it is clutch first then the accelerator rather than the accelerator then the clutch. In a diesel you wait till the car is ready to move before you give it any extra fuel. And remember the methods we have given you are exaggerated. The things we do driving stick are almost second nature and everything works together so we don't even notice the timing on starting in first or the rpm rise or drop going into the other gears. Some of us down shift to a stop and some stop first and then downshift. Some leave it in first at a stop light and some have it in neutral. It is all up to you as to what is best.

nyccarguy

James Bond? They had to halt production because he couldn't drive whatever Aston Martin is the new bond car bnecause he can't drive a stick :mad:

prosa

I'm a little skeptical ... Daniel Craig is British, and it goes without saying that manuals are far more common there than in the United States. I could maybe see it if he were American, but not British.
By the way, on a topic completely unrelated to autos, some Bond fans are complaining that Craig is a poor choice because he has blond hair. You don't often see blond actors playing hero roles in movies:

.. there's little demand for blond men. Hollywood, for example, believes that ladies prefer their gentlemen tall, dark, and handsome, a phrase coined by Mae West about Cary Grant. There are dramatically more blonde actresses than actors, because audiences apparently associate darker hair with mature masculinity. In the vast majority of love scenes in movies, the man is darker in hair and skin color than the woman. Actors typically described as blond, such as Leonardo DiCaprio, generally wear their hair much darker than do blonde actresses, such as Meryl Streep or Kate Hudson. Even Conan the Barbarian was played as a brunet by Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Link

boaz47

You seem to be correct. we often seem to feel our brothers across the big pond are less likely to be interested in ease of use than we weak Americans. But it is just cheeper to get a manual license than a Automatic, it isn't harder. This site might help dispel some of that myth when speaking of the "upper class" even in Europe. :shades:

http://www.mi6.co.uk/news/index.php?itemid=3389

I love the Quote, " err..I don't do gears." As if it was distasteful.

andys120

But I wonder what those shabby manual transmissions were that you had that needed work after 120K miles. They weren't BMWs, were they?

Nope, a Saab and two Fords. I had to dump another Saab cuz they couldn't repair the clutch slave cylinder for more than a few thousand miles.

Saab's been making FWD transaxles longer than anybody, you think they'd have got it right after the first 40 years. :mad:

ubbermotor

That was Pierce Brosnan in "Die another day".

nyccarguy

I have a friend whose daughter turns 16 over the summer. In addition to signing her up for driver's ed, my friend has entrusted me to help teach her daughter how to drive. Last night at dinner the girl says to me "You're going to teach me how to drive stick right?" Of course I will. Now my only question is do I risk damaging the new clutch in my Prelude that was put in about 10,000 miles ago (very expensive) or buy a beater car ($1500 - $2000) to teach her on and then either sell it or donate it when we're done.

bobst

Tell her to provide the car. Then teach her to drive a stick.

PF_Flyer

Unless she's awful, I don't anticipate that your clutch is in danger. I taught the wife, and last year taught my daughter, and while they did give us a wild ride for the first day or two, things smoothed out fairly quickly. And in reality, the biggest mistakes they made was either being afriad to let the clutch out or letting it out too fast. SO the clutch either wasn't engaged at all or completely engaged too soon, stalling the engine. Not a lot of clutch slipping going on.

wai

Do you think a Prelude is too fast for a beginner (too much torque for every gear)? Given the fact that she doesn't know how to drive in a straight line yet, its better to let her drive an automatic for a few times, after she get used to keep straight on the road, then teach her in a manual shift car, preferably a sub-compact car like Civic, Corolla or Sentra. I think clutch cost is not so important than how she feels comfortably and confidently in driving a stick shift car.

habitat1

Take her to Erie, PA over the summer and I'll lend you my 1995 Nissan Maxima SE 5-speed that I have stored there at at no charge. I'd consider it my contribution to "the cause".

Back when I was shopping for my first new car (1978 Datsun B210GX 4-speed), a Honda dealer took me out in a Civic and taught me in one, sometimes painful, session. My friends would claim they could smell me before they saw me in my Datsun, but that original clutch lasted 95,000 miles.

Good luck and best wishes in your admirable undertaking.

nyccarguy

Her Mom drives a Toyota Sienna Minivan which I think is way too big of a vehicle for her to learn to drive on. My wife's '00 Protege ES would be an ideal car for her to learn to drive on (automatic).

Now that I think about it, how much damage can she really do her first few times out? The Prelude is actually a good car for her to learn on. It offers excellent outward visibility, tracks well, and the power doesn't come on until the tach swings past the 5K mark.

The only reason I worry about my clutch (Aftermarket Centerforce) is because I just spent $1800 replacing it (along with the throw out bearing and flywheel). What you say? YOU GOT RIPPED OFF! My Prelude Type SH is a special car in many ways. The Type SH stands for SUPER HANDLING which means my car is equipped with Honda's ATTS (Active Torque Transfer System). What ATTS does is transfers up to 80% of the power to the outside wheel during cornering to reduce understeer. Anyway... In order to replace the clutch, the ATTS unit had to be removed and reinstalled (Extra 4-5 hours of labor). I had it done at my Honda Dealer who I trust. I did get a few other quotes from other dealers/transmission shops and they weren't significantly cheaper. The price I pay for technology.

ateixeira

Yep, the Forester still has one, other Subies discontinued the feature, though.

-juice

rockylee

Hey I wished you could teach me that trick. That is my sum of all fears when driving a stick.

Rocky

bobst

Starting on a steep hill?

Simple. Get a car with a handbrake. That is, a brake that can be operated by hand, not one with the emergency brake on the floor like most American cars.

When you want to start on a steep hill, use the handbrake to keep the car from rolling back. Then push in the clutch, put the car is first gear, push in the throttle, and release the clutch slowly. When you feel the clutch engaging, then slowly release the handbrake, apply more throttle, and away you go.

When I am on a steep hill and another car pulls up close behind me, I'm glad I know how to do this.

z142

Now... What car should I get? My choices would be a new tC, Mazda3, or Civic, or a used Eclipse or RSX ('03 to '05). From what I've read, they all seem to be pretty reliable so it's a really tough choice.

bobst

I have a 2003 base RSX and absolutely love it. However, the new ones supposedly have a bad problem with the front struts that causes a clunking noise.

Go to clubrsx.com - problems and solutions - to read more about it.

lilengineerboy

Depends on your needs...Mazda3 & Civic come as a sedan, Civic is a coupe, and the other three are hatches (well and the Mazda3 wagon). If I was going ot be in the back seat, I would rather be in the back of a Civic or a Mazda3 than a 2dr, but if there's not people back there very often, then whats your criteria? Handling? Fuel economy? Bling bling?

z142

I just need an affordable car that's good on gas and reliable. I want to get the best deal possible. I want it to look good, but I don't need it to be fancy. And I don't expect it to drive and handle like a race car when it's not one. 2 door or 4 door doesn't matter since I rarely have passengers in the back

lilengineerboy

Oh, thats easy then. Go drive them and see which one you like the best. Mazda3 has a 2.3l and the Scion Tc has a 2.4l (from a Camry) so they might feel torquier than the Hondas, but they have a boost when the Vtec comes on and aftermarket support to change that point.
Don't sell out on handling, it should handle pretty well too, the RSX is probably tops and works its way down from there. You may want to budget for tires, as most OEM tires provide poor handling because they are designed to last forever.

boaz47

The Mazda 3 wagon/hatch is hard to beat for room and it handles quite well to boot. I had one chase me up the mountain to my house the other day and it was surprising. The thing that grabbed me was it had a auto stick and still had the scoot to impress me. If you want to row your own gears and yet still have a car that you can use when you are feeling lazy or a friend can drive if you can't drive home because you partied too hardy the autostick works pretty well. It is a lot like the best of both worlds. Like many here that aren't concerned with all out speed in shifting so they don't want a paddle shifter and yet want to choose their own gears the auto stick allows you to drive a stick without having to learn a clutch at all. I give a real stick the edge in hard mountain driving but you aren't concerned with performance anyway according to your post. And you already know how to drive in automatic mode. Besides the Mazda 3 looks "good" and is easy to find with the auto stick. As was the P-5 before it.

lilengineerboy

Of course that would be an automatic with a boy-racer option as opposed to actually being a manual transmission car with a clutch pedal.
It depends what you want, but a slushbox with a toy shifer option isn't a manual.