The Future Of The Manual Transmission

stickguy

sell quick, when they are cheap. I think you run into a little more resistance with something that new and expensive. Maybe the picky stick buyers that can afford it just go new instead?

As you know, when you are "bottom feeding" (1-3K say), it's a lot easier to move a stick, IMO.

nippononly

right now is a very good time to stress how fuel-efficient that car is - this year's model (at least the Matrix version) is rated 30/36 in the stick, which is two points better than the automatic (which I agree is a dog, as I had one). And 30/36 is a lot of gas savings compared to a lot of other cars with as much room, like the Malibu Maxx rated in the low 20s combined (for instance), a car that only comes with an auto.

steine13

right now is a very good time to stress how fuel-efficient that car is...

"VIBE 04 27K, 5 speed, silver, loaded, clean. 30/36 mpg, warranty, 1 owner, no accidents. $11,800. Call xxx-xxxx or xxx-xxxx"

Yeah, that thought had occurred to me :-)

Thanks for making me dig up the ad on cars.com; it still shows my original asking price of $12,300. I have to fix that.

The one "real" call I've had came from Marhall, over an hour south of here, and the guy said he drives that distance for his commute... talk about a ready-made customer...

But the point is, there ARE people out there who could really use this car; the price is right -- couldn't touch a new one under $17 -- and the car is all there; and I still can't get any action. 'Cuz people don't want the stick.

Maybe I'll get a beater for myself anyway and give the Vibe to my 20k/year wife...

-Mathias

nippononly

well, to be fair, you don't know that it is because of the stick. New car sales have been way down - I think with the gas prices, people are waiting on big purchases at the moment, to see just how big a bite out of their normal budget the gas is going to take.

But yeah, definitely, put the 30/36 mpg in the ad! :-)

ateixeira

I sold a Chevy Sprint right after Desert Storm and I put "50 mpg" in the ad. Sold it the first weekend.

I actually averaged more like 45, but it would hit 50 at times.

-juice

kyfdx

downhill...

..with a tail wind...

carlisimo

miles per hour?

kyfdx

LOL... MPG or MPH... take your pick.. :surprise:

wai

I will pick mph as time is precious.

ateixeira

One or the other. Not both!

-juice

haulin79

In a spinning motor: Torque is the means, Power is the ends.

Theoretically, in some motors, you can have a very high torque at ZERO rpm. This will not accelerate a vehicle. This can help explain why for maximum acceleration, you want a CVT to have the engine spin at max HP rpm rather than max TQ rpm.

Power is what accelerates a vehicle. A rocket with high thrust (power) strapped to a car has ZERO torque, yet the car would accelerate.

If anybody cares, here's the conversion for thrust to power http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/propulsion/q0195.shtml

cdnpinhead

It's not theory. Electric motors (like your starter, or hybrids) generate tremendous torque at zero RPM.

Torque, in fact, is what accelerates a vehicle, and power is what allows the vehicle to continue to accelerate and run at high speeds, where air resistance becomes relevant.

Thrust has to do with propulsion engines that aren't attached to a drive train. The engines built where I work generate anywhere from 1000 to 7000 pounds thrust on a standard day (sea level, 59 deg f), while our shaft engines run from a few hundred to 5000 shp. The two classes are measured quite differently.

Last I heard, thrust engines have absolutely nothing to do with production car engines.

haulin79

My point is that you can have an engine that is strapped to a car with ZERO torque and still propel the car...that engine being a rocket engine with thrust.

With this unique thrust engine configuration:
Torque, in fact, is not needed at all to accelerate a car. That was the only point in my mentioning of thrust engines.

carlisimo

Torque is needed to cause rotation, by definition. And wheels need to rotate for a car to move. In the case of a car that gets pushed (by a jet, propeller, sail, etc, instead of having a motor twist the axles), the torque comes from the car pushing the axles forward and the road pushing the tires backwards - there's a moment between the axle and the contact patch.

And jet engines (except ramjets) have rotating parts - there's torque happening somewhere in there.

But I guess it's not a measurement that you would care about in those cases, unlike people designing a piston engine who have to worry about the torque output at every rpm.

potemkin

"The most torque is put to the drive wheels... in first gear."

Yes, you win. In a vehicle equipped with a standard transmission Maximum torque is put to the ground in first gear at the engine's torque peak. Guess I should've explained further:

At a given speed peak HP puts more torque to the road. a car that produces peak torque at 4500 rpm and peak HP at 6000 rpm will accelerate faster shifting down to a 1.33:1 gear ratio that revs the engine up to 6000 than leaving it at 1:1 ratio at 4500 rpm. In this example if you multiply the torque at peak HP by 1.33 you'll get a larger number than the peak torque figure.

Works for any car: Torque_at_peak_HP * RPM_at_peak_HP / RPM_at_peak_torque will get you a larger number than the vehicle's peak torque number.

Since we're talking about a CVT here, running the engine at peak HP constantly will result in faster acceleration.

"Just like force, torque can be multiplied.
Power, like energy, cannot. "

Yes, because "horsepower" is a measurement of "work" which is defined: Work = Mass x Distance / Time.

timothyaw

I'm glad all three of my cars are good ole manuals. No issues of this "adaptive learning" transmissions crap. I don't need a transmission to think for me. I sometimes think americans are getting so lazy and numb they don't want to do anything themselves anymore! They're putting too much electronic gadgetizdy on these automatic transmissions and cars nowadays! Enough is enough already

habitat1

Amen.

And if we could have gotten our MDX in a 6-speed like our TL, we'd have paid an extra $1,000 for it.

sportsguy248

I want to learn how to drive a stick shift and I am hoping to rent a decent stick shift car, like a mustang, cobalt or something like those, during the summer. Does anyone know of a place in Los Angeles County, California where I can rent one?

carlisimo

People learning stick on rented cars may be why it's so hard to rent stickshift cars. But I hear you can rent a wide variety of cars around Beverly Hills.

I think the new Mustangs have decent manual transmissions, but generally that's been a weakness for a lot of domestic makes. I didn't like the Cobalt's. The Koreans aren't good at them, and Toyota and Nissan are okay but not great. I'd try to find a Honda, Mazda, or BMW for a better stickshift experience.

nippononly

does find a place that will rent you a stick shift, I would LOVE to know where. That would be a true rarity.

Now in Europe, all the rentals are sticks. You have to pay a surcharge to get an automatic. That's the way it should be everywhere! :-)

iluvmysephia1

get knocked so bad on their manual transmissions. They are built by Getrag(at least my '99 Kia Sephia 5-speed tranny was, not sure about my '01 Kia Sportage 4x4's manual tranny's builder)and both of my Kia's have shifted like champs. My Sportage's engine idles so quietly I can barely tell it's running and, when the SUV is running it is not hard to shift the tranny at all. I drive a stick very well, though, and can adapt to any car's stick with just a short train-up period of time. I think Kia sticks are sure and solid and basically just dismiss words contrary to that as just so much Steeler-meal.

hungarian83

"Now in Europe, all the rentals are sticks. You have to pay a surcharge to get an automatic."

Thankfully!
Of course it goes beyond surcharges...some of the classes don't even offer an automatic as an option...but this may vary somewhat between countries.
Last year when I went home I was going to rent a car for a few days and out of curiousity I asked what kind of cars they had for rental with an automatic. They had nothing at the time, but they could have an AT-equipped model with 48 hours notice!
Even the full-size cars and the full-size (by European standards) van were manuals.

Long live the manual! (at least in Europe)

nippononly

I may have to MOVE to Europe! ;-)

iluv: check out the units in the new Rio and Spectra. They're just kinda gross: poorly defined gates, wooden-spoon-in-a-bowl-of-rocks action. I would be very surprised if these units came from Getrag.

iluvmysephia1

I have read the reviews and some are all right with them and some are not. I don't know if Getrag is still where Kia gets their manual trannies.

Why would C&D rate the 2006 Kia Rio5 above the Toyota Yaris in their May issue 7-car comparo then? Wouldn't the shifter snaggle be mentioned? That was one of the highlights of my 1999 Kia Sephia, the shifting action of it's 5-speed. It worked flawlessly for me and I enjoyed shifting the tranny in that rig.

I mean, they might have casually mentioned the Rio5's shifter but I don't recall reading that information. If you go the the "2006 Kia Rio" thread here on Edmunds new Rio buyers post great things about their Rio's in there and gas mileage is in the mid-30's, right where Kia says it should be on the window sticker. I don't read about crappy shifters in that thread. I take what people post here on Edmunds as being much more reliable than magazine writers. I also put more creedence in an Edmunds review of a rig than a magazine writer's view. I'm not saying I discount your view, nippononly. I would have to test drive one to see what you're talking about.

So, if anyone reading this post owning a 2005 or 2006 Kia vehicle with a manual transmission know if that transmission is sold to Kia from Getrag of Germany? If not, where does Kia buy them from? Ya know?

Serious responses only.

nippononly

Now c'mon iluv, let's get real here - I am not one of the habitual Korean bashers here. Every review I have read of the new Rio has mentioned the crappy shifter, and you are right, they found enough positive attributes of the car to place it above some of its competition anyway.

This includes the C&D comparo, BTW, and in that article they hated pretty much all the manual shifters except the Yaris, Fit, and Versa. It actually led them to say something like "what's with all the rope-a-dope shifters in this segment? It must cost like, what, $30 to put a good shifter in a modern car?"

I have no doubt that the car makes great mileage. If you are a habitual manual shifter yourself, then I invite you right here and now to go test drive the new Rio and tell us what you think.

stickguy

I think too often the terms get interchanged, and the wrong part blamed. The tranny may be a great unit (from Getrag, etc.), but the shifter itself could be the weak link. Especially on a FWD car with a cable linkage.

Manufacturers probably try to save a few bucks, and lose shift precision in the process.

For many cars, you can get a replacement (often short throw) shifter that can make a world of difference, and they usually don't even cost that much!

Or, you could just be like Honda or Mazda (for FWD) or BMW (RWD) and make the standard piece work like a dream!

scott1256

devoted solely to the survival of the manual transmission.

www.shiftyworld.com

bumpy

The manual shifter on a lot of subcompacts has a very long throw, probably to make it easier on people with little experience driving stick. I once read a description of the throw in the previous-gen Accent as "you can elbow someone in the back seat shifting into fourth". The shifter base itself in the Accent is some sort of pseudo-rubbery plastic, and there's not much you can do with it short of replacing the entire assembly. A short-throw shifter does help, but it's still loose enough to easily overshoot the "gates" if you're not careful.

thechiefs

Would you require them to know how to drive a stick before letting them take the driving test in order to get their license or does this not matter?

It'll be interesting to see what the responses will be.

fintail

With the decline in popularity (or accessibility) of manual transmissions, it might not be a relevant requirement. But on the other hand, a manual gives one much more of an idea about controlling a car. My dad made me drive a stick before I drove anything else...I hated it, but it's a skill I retain. I think it should be encouraged.

carlisimo

It takes away a lot of the mystery of what's going on with your tachometer. I'll make my kids learn it (if there are still sticks 20-30 years in the future).

shipo

Both of my kids (currently 12 and 9) have a pretty fair idea of how to drive a stick already and I have every intention of having them master a stick before they even start Driver Training.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1

When they were tots, I used to make em shift through 4/5 speeds. Must have tramatized them. They have no real desire to learn the two manual transmission cars I drive.

boaz47

what we teach them to drive on they will go in their own direction. My son can drive about anything that moves from a big rig to a tank. He only considers the transmission as "one" part of getting a vehicle. Almost all of his friends are the same. If being an automotive enthusiast puts us in a minority becoming a manual enthusiast is even more of one. If we want or need one we as individuals need to learn to drive one. But trying to pass our passion on to others, even our children, is pretty much a waste of time. There may be exceptions but they seem to be few and far between. I have taught several teen age drivers how to drive a stick. three girls and one boy. Today they have their own first cars. The three girls got a Civic, Accord and a F-150. All automatics but they look good. The Boy has a Subaru with a manual. That looks to be about how the future of the manual is going to stack up in the US for a very long time in the future. Unless hybrids and alternative power vehicles ever become the norm, and then the manual may become obsolete. ICE is the biggest hope for the future the manual has.

What we like to drive may have more influence on the transmission we get than any desire to maintain one form of technology over another. people that like small perhaps even nimble daily drivers and still have a drive that allows us to enjoy it some maybe a manual will fit the bill. Commutes in heavy bumper traffic for hours at a time and the advent of cup holders and Starbucks make the manual less desirable.

My wife and I both drive a manual and have for a number of years. But we are thinking of down sizing our fleet as I get closer to retirement. During the discussion of what vehicles to keep the transmission is not even part of the discussion. If we keep her car and our truck we will be a divided family. One manual and one automatic. If we keep my car and the truck we would be in the same boat.

nippononly

the solution is clear: you will just have to keep both cars and get rid of the truck! :-P

boaz47

I knew you might think of that. And if either of the Cars could tow or haul a Quad it might be worth considering. The F-250 has a 12,500 pound towing capacity and neither car can tow more than 1000 pounds. Projects, yard work and weekend vacations make a car less than ideal if you have a boat, bikes or even a camping trailer. But believe it or not I considered it. At heart however I am a truck guy. I haven't made up my mind but we will know by mid August or no later than December. Now if you could just get a 4x8 sheet of plywood in the PT with ten bags of cement and a load of 2x4s the choice would be easier.

nippononly

I thought I heard some place that those big trucks were available with a manual - how come you went the automatic route? Too hard to find a big truck with a stick?

I have always liked the sound of those HD trucks with the diesel engines with like 500 lb-ft of torque and a 5- or 6-speed manual. Not that I would ever have any use for such a vehicle AT ALL, but I'm glad you can still get them with a manual. Having said that, if I were going to be towing a lot with such a vehicle, I am not sure I would want the manual. Wow, I've found the one circumstance where I might prefer the automatic to the manual!

ateixeira

Yes, I will teach them, though I doubt by then they'll ever use the skill.

I taught my younger brother and he has a manual Legacy, at least.

-juice

habitat1

will be taught how to drive a stick AND get a defensive/performance driving school degree before taking on the DC Capital Beltway.

I don't necessarily think driving a stick makes one a better driver. But having the practice of coordination and control is valuable in my opinion. Every spring/summer there is at least one tragic accident where some rich kid is driving his new SUV or BMW and wraps it around a tree or flips it over. Lot's of blame goes to the stupid, stupid parents. But I think the average 16 year old girl or boy has gotten far superior soccer skills than driving skills through their high school coaches. Learning how to drive defensively and knowing the physics of a 3,000+ pound vehicle isn't going to prevent all accidents, but it's a step I'm not going to skimp on.

qbrozen

I don't necessarily think driving a stick makes one a better driver.

I disagree. I think driving a stick (when you are a new driver) commands more attention. More attention to driving means more attention to the road means better driver.

I think just being able to flip a switch and put your foot on a pedal is just too easy. Even a parrot can handle that much. And when something is too easy, a person is too quick to dismiss the importance of their role is said activity.

hungarian83

"I think driving a stick (when you are a new driver) commands more attention. More attention to driving means more attention to the road means better driver.
I think just being able to flip a switch and put your foot on a pedal is just too easy. Even a parrot can handle that much. And when something is too easy, a person is too quick to dismiss the importance of their role is said activity."

I agree, but I don't think it just applies to new drivers. My experiences with driving in countries with high percentages of manual cars vs. the US is that people do tend to pay attention more to driving. By nature, it also discourages (especially in city driving) the use of cell phones, and doing things other than focusing on driving.

Even now with my new car (my previous one was automatic) I find myself again to be paying attention more, and trying to predict the traffic ahead of me (to prevent having to change gears all the time, etc).

boaz47

Yes, it is harder to get a stick in one of the big diesels. The recommended transmission for towing seems to be the Automatic and they even include it with the heavy duty towing package. But worse yet they limit the number of Manuals they sell in big trucks in our state. Not that I was that interested in a manual with this much torque. All the advantages you love so well go out the window with a 3/4 ton or better. You have to get into a F-500 or even a 600 before manuals are one again the norm. I do have a friend that held out for the F-250 manual but my automatic is a lot nicer to drive because a truck manual is anything but smooth.

habitat1

I misspoke in my initila post. I wanted to say:

I don't necessarily think just driving a stick makes one a better driver.

I absolutely agree that paying attention to what you are doing - which is a requirement when driving a stick - is a good thing. And if a kid (or adult) can't master the simple coordination of driving a stick, I'd prefer that they don't drive a car, period. But that's another subject.

Learning (and practicing) automotive "physics" is just as important. A friend of mine gave his daughter a used Honda Accord after she turned 16 to be able to drive herself and her 13 year old brother to early morning school swimming practice. But even before she got her full license, he enrolled her in an intensive 2 day defensive driving course for $1,000 +/-. Four months later, at 5:30 a.m. on a dark two lane road, she had to do an amazing manuever to avoid a deer that ran out right in front of her. The 40 year old driver behind her panicked, lost control and rolled his car (Audi A6) off the road. He died a week later. I seriously doult that 95% of the male drivers of stick shift sports cars could have handled that FWD Accord any better than she did, thanks to her training. Best $1,000 my buddy ever spent, that's for sure.

carlisimo

My friend, longtime sporty driver and fan of stickshifts, lost his Prelude when someone sped out of a parking lot into his path.

He has his heart set on a TSX, but according to him, he can barely find any manual ones - none in a color he likes. So he's getting an automatic. No, he's not as hardcore as some of us, but it would've been an easy decision for him if there were just a decent ratio of manuals out there.

prosa

He has his heart set on a TSX, but according to him, he can barely find any manual ones - none in a color he likes. So he's getting an automatic. No, he's not as hardcore as some of us, but it would've been an easy decision for him if there were just a decent ratio of manuals out there.

If he'd be willing to accept a couple instead of a sedan, he shouldn't have too much trouble finding an RSX with a manual.

rockylee

He can find one on autotrader, and have it shipped for $400-800 dollars.

Rocky

boaz47

Trouble is, as Scion is finding out, people want to test drive the vehicles they buy and so they must be able to find one on a lot near them. Very few are, as one poster put it, as die hard on manuals as some in these forums. They care more for the style and design of the car than the transmission. How else do you account for 75 percent or more of the US cars being Automatic?

iluvmysephia1

in my cars. I will wait until the dealer has one on the lot or have them order me one and wait. I would be happy to never drive another automatic tranny again.

I know, never is an awfully long time, too.

ateixeira

Last I heard it was actually 93%, but I don't recall the source.

-juice

prosa

I took a calculated risk when I bought my Forester last October. The dealership had 75+ Foresters and Outbacks (I was also considering an Outback) on the lot, and not one of them was a manual. According to the salesman, if I ended up buying a manual it would take a few days to obtain one, but that of course was no help at the test-driving stage. What I ended up doing was test driving a Forester and an Outback, both in automatics, and after deciding on the Forester pretty much just hoped that I'd like driving the manual okay when it arrived a few days later.
As things turned out, I found the manual Forester very much to my liking. Still, it was a risky thing to have done, and I'm not sure I'd do it again.