The Future Of The Manual Transmission

cdnpinhead

You make a good point.

I have a thing about rear-wheel drive. In cars laid out that way, a manual is relatively easy to work on.

And, as Shipo pointed out, $1400 is a bargain in the land of automatics.

explorerx4

is that i can coast a lot with it. i think this gives it a lot more potential to save gas than an automatic.
of course your driving conditions have to allow that.

boaz47

Manual doesn't have to be less robust than a dog leg. It is simply the shift pattern. Any of us that have had cars and worked on them for any amount of time know when you put an after market shifter like a Hurst you go for the narrow gate it offers. It is even better if you can get a quick shifter so you hardly feel the gate. The transmission inside doesn't care how you got it in gear. That is why the WRC cars with sequencial shifters are quicker than dog legs, no gate. It isn't just a bit faster either. Try to out shift a motorcycle sometime and see. They have had sequencial shifters for about as long as they have had transmissions. So why the resistance? Because it is different? Because it is change? The racing paddle shifters simply take the motorcycle shift pattern one step further. They add a computer to manage the clutch. If you don't trust a computer you are in big trouble. Your car is full of them. People didn't trust ABS and not are having a hard time with skid control. People are saying skid control is OK if it has an off switch? Maybe but I seem to remember the early Corvettes had ABS with an off switch. Don't think they still do for a street Vette.

I would pose a question. So what if they take the skill out of shifting? We already know a Automatic and CVT can be made to be cleaner than a manual because so many over shift their manuals or leave the clutch depressed just a bit too long cause the manual to bog a bit and create more smog. Perfectly shifted they are no problem but how many shift perfectly? Plus there is no evidence that people driving manuals are less likely to have accidents. I wouldn't be surprised at all if any study looking at the transmission in accidents didn't show as many or more people with manuals having them. We did talk about the CVT having an unlimited number of gear options? Could a manual ever support seven speeds or eight without a splitter?

Are manuals making it easier to learn how to drive. If we give two identical kids 2 weeks worth of driving lessons will the manual driver be better than the automatic driver at the end of those two weeks? If you drive a manual you know the answer. The manual driver will still be stalling the car by the end of the first week. And even if they aren't stalling the car the first steep hill in traffic will have them wetting themselves, even if they are successful at pulling the hill launch off. Manuals have a lot of virtues, ease of use isn't one of them.

spiritinthesky

Drive what you want, but with all due respect, you have too high opinion of your own opinion on what high end sports car drivers want and the profitability of catering to that market.

As someone pointed out, Porsche makes more money on selling a relative fraction of the cars of other manufacturers - and 90% of 911's are sold with manual transmissions. Being the top choice in a market segment that has - according to Forbes - an average income of $500,000+ and an average net worth of $5 million+ is always going to produce better financial results than catering to the mass commodity oriented market.

So, as long as a significant segment of the high end sports car purchasers want a stick, they will be made. And SL's, XK's, are NOT sports cars. They are GT's at best or, in the case of the SC430, a mid-life convertible that wouldn't be considered exciting to drive by anybody with a pulse over a comotose level.

carlisimo

Take it a step further: the computer drives you where you want to go. Yes it's progress, and it's easier, and nicer sometimes, but is it fun?

Only if you dislike the act of driving. We don't. Think of anything else you do for fun.... Model kit builders want more pieces as they get better, not less. You won't see them buying a die-cast model. You won't see Woody Allen's Orgasmotron replace (there wouldn't be any kids here, right?).

Easy, quick and simple are only good if you're talking about a tool. Cars are tools and toys at the same time. For some people they're 90% tool; they have to go for reliability, practicality, efficiency, etc. For others they're 90% toy; weekend or project cars on which Lucas Electronics might be acceptable. Most people are near the middle but anyone with a significant "toy" percentage will be happy with something more complicated and demanding, and possibly stick.

==

(note: I'm not arguing that stickshifts might or might not disappear in the US and Asia; I'm just arguing that ease of use isn't everyone's priority.)

lilengineerboy

I like the Lucas reference. I still enjoy driving, its fun for me. I don't have a lot of traffic on my commute, and I actually like to take evening drives with the wife and dog to the DQ. I don't have a particularly sporty car, but both are sticks and it makes everyday stuff a little more fun.
I have a buddy at a towing company and he has always said, sooner or later, and automatic will put you in a ditch. I've never driven an automatic in snow and ice, but I like that I know the car isn't going to change gears unless I do it.

albert6

I'll just throw in that manual offers speed control via the gas pedal. Automatics typically offer only go control. The difference on downhill travel is dramatic, unless manually shifting the automatic into a lower gear.

Some automatic/engine combos seem to idle at 20 mph and lead to stop-light creep and the general sense of annoyance of having to move between gas and brake in situations where more-gas/less-gas on a manual would do just fine.

What about pairing a manual tranmission with a torque-converter? No stalling, no hill start problems, still offers speed control. Add a converter-lockup for highway speeds and the efficiency is up with a manually operated clutch.

Those who like it rough need to have their synchronizers removed.

I know a couple people who had ABS decide the car was skidding and refused to apply the brakes. Likewise I've had automatic trannies unable to decide which gear to be in and rapidly try them all. I like systems that leaves the decision making to me.

For high performance computers can't be beat, but when they fail they take the whole system with them.

nippononly

that's really it in a nutshell, isn't it? A manual can make a drive in a relatively plain car more fun.

"For some people they're 90% tool; they have to go for reliability, practicality, efficiency, etc. For others they're 90% toy; weekend or project cars on which Lucas Electronics might be acceptable. Most people are near the middle"

Actually, I think most people are at 90% tool. Some people are at 100% tool. That is what will doom the manual, most likely. :-(

But how any enthusiast without a physical impairment can advocate or choose an automatic over a manual is beyond me. I conceded once, bought the auto because the car I wanted was in very limited supply and the auto was all I could find in stock, and I regretted that decision every minute of the 18 short months I owned that car before I finally just had to jettison it. One of only two cars ever I sold while I was still upside down in the loan, I was so desperate to get back to a 3-pedal.

boaz47

it is a toy. No argument there. The whole point falls on are there enough people interested in buying one to keep them going? At what percent do we get alarmed? Is a 90/10 split not too bad? How would we feel about a 95/5 split? In a world of mass produced cars at what percentage is the manual not profitable?

we pound our fists and gnash our teeth and say it will never happen and yet it doesn't look good. I can remember in one of these very forums someone saying that Porsche would never build a family Sedan or anything that sedate. Now they have a SUV. Why? Market interest. So even Porsche isn't immune to market forces.

We can always get toys in almost any configuration we want. And we can always rationalize why our favorite toy will always be produced. I am just not so sure we are living in times where that is still true. There are people I know that love OLD LPs. Getting a record player has become a challenge however.

I agree having a computer control our car has increased the cost to fix them. Didn't stop them from putting computers in our cars.

carlisimo

Old products (that have going for them) find a niche. It's easy to find a record player if you shop for DJing equipment. I suppose the 8-track didn't really have any advantage to it.

We're seeing an atomization of niches anyway, right? Everyone's starting to offer everything that has any potential market interest. We're not seeing a consolidation of options at all.

boaz47

Well, yes. People will always find an outlet I suppose. You can still find parts for a Fiat 124. And if you want you can still buy an Avanti. But what are we saying? Will the manual be relegated to a niche market or has it already be relegated to a niche market? In the US anyway? And how did it get that way? It could be worse I suppose. When Mini Vans were all the rage you would never find a manual in one without going to VW. That just wasn't going to happen.

orangelebaron

I know why it does not downshift... it's a computer program... did you ever drive the Outback? It is beyond just hesitating to downshift...it sometimes flat out refuses to downshift which can be dangerous. Even in sport mode it sometimes doesn't know what to do (when driven aggressively).

I did not get the stick because I drive on Long Island/New York City. Ever get a cramp in the muscle on your shin bone while trying to clutch/shift? :surprise:
But many times I do wish I had the regular stick shift.

So.. my gas mileage has not improved by using the sport shift manually (shifting gently BTW)...in fact I think it was lower!

boaz47

The autoshifter is designed to maximize you fuel mileage when driven conservitivly. Manual shifting an auto stick will not help. The tendency to shift or hold a shift too long is also very common in people that only have a manual. On of the reasons they get dinged by the clean air people.

nippononly

Funny thing is, I HAVE driven the new Outback, and it is very pleasant, dare I say peppy, with the manual. I have not, of course, driven the automatic, but I have driven several different automatic Toyota sedans, and Toyota does the same thing - they program the non-sport Toyota automatics for maximum fuel-saving, which is to say, limited to no downshifting even when the pedal is stomped.

Actually, even as I say that, I will add that the brand new Camry is much more willing to downshift, so maybe they figured out that people didn't like that! It is also rated lower for fuel economy with the same engine as before. :sick:

habitat1

Ever get a cramp in the muscle on your shin bone while trying to clutch/shift?

No. I'm months away from 50 ands gave up my Olympic aspirations a couple of decades ago. Just yesterday I further injured a torn ACL (right, fortunately) trying to go from 1st to 3rd on a single. But I was still capable of driving home in my 6-speed.

I guess I can understand those that prefer an auto to a stick because, for them, the enjoyment of the stick doesn't outweigh their preference for laid back convenience and rush hour comfort. And some people have had serious enough left knee injuries that a tough clutch can be painful.

But honestly, I don't think there is any age in which a weak leg muscle - shin, calf, quad or otherwise - should be an excuse for an otherwise healthy person. It's not for my 105 lb wife who would happily trade her MDX mushy slushbox for a crisp manual. And its won't be for me as I drive my 911 back to my doctor's office tomorrow to get my knee drained (and my [non-permissible content removed] kicked for trying to take an extra base).

Buy an auto if that's your preference. Get in better shape if it isn't. If a 94 year old can take a swing and jog to first in a minor league game, you sure as hell can drive a clutch in NY

shipo

"No. I'm months away from 50 ands gave up my Olympic aspirations a couple of decades ago. Just yesterday I further injured a torn ACL (right, fortunately) trying to go from 1st to 3rd on a single. But I was still capable of driving home in my 6-speed."

Dude! It seems that you and I are virtually the same age and have the same opinion of driving a stick. :shades:

In our household, both my wife (who's a couple of months shy of 49) and I and her 71 year old mother love to drive stick shifts (my mom does too but she doesn't like it). My 12 year old son can already successfully drive up and down the street of our cul-de-sac and start off on an incline. My 9 year old daughter, who had a stroke at birth and is partially paralized on her left side will most likely master the stick and clutch as well. I say most likely because even with her disability, she's still learning ballet and modern dance on the leg motion side and is quite proficient in both the piano and the violin on the hand motion side. I'm thinking that if she can master the stick shift, anybody can. I'll report back in a couple of years on her progress. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

habitat1

My 9 year old daughter, who had a stroke at birth and is partially paralized on her left side will most likely master the stick and clutch as well. I say most likely because even with her disability, she's still learning ballet and modern dance on the leg motion side and is quite proficient in both the piano and the violin on the hand motion side.

Your daughter's determination under challenging circumstances is heartening. I suspect her "disability" will make her even more successful in life, thanks to her discipline and your support. Congratulations to you and your wife.

shipo

Thanks, I really appreciate that.

Best Regards,
Shipo

vcheng

Your daughter's a champion, and having a dad like you must surely be a great asset!

Back to cars: I had the opportunity to drive a six speed stick IS250, and while it had way less power than my LS430, the drive actually was more enjoyable.

Surely the stick shift will live on!

andys120

Autoweek sez the DSG shifter will be used throughout the model lineup stating in late 2007.

link

I'll be on the local dealer's doorstep the day the Boxster S/DSG hits the showroom.

The beginning of the end for three-pedal cars?

shipo

You want a Porsche with an Automatic transmission? Ewwww.

Best Regards,
Shipo

habitat1

The beginning of the end for three-pedal cars?

Not quite. The 7-speed DSG is intended to replace the Tiptronic, not the manual transmission.

I'll be on the local dealer's doorstep the day the Boxster S/DSG hits the showroom.

Sad commentary. The Boxster S 6-speed is arguably the best roadster on the market and your waiting for a DSG?? :surprise: Some enthusiast you are.

Side Bar:

I just read a Washington Post article in this mornings edition about the decline in the number of younger adults (25-45) getting private pilot liscenses. Suggested part of the reason is because it is perceived to be "too hard" and that many of this younger generation grew up expecting the instant entertainment gratification of playing video games, instead of actually DOING something.

I suspect the same phenomenon accounts for part of the decline in the manual transmission and the new infatuation with thumb operated "paddle shifters".

It is an even sadder commentary that some of these same people are now parents that are more inclined to take their TV adicted kids to Disney World or other amusement park than a National Park. We just returned from Rocky Mountain National Park and I am pleased to report that my kids had a much better experience seeing a real moose and her calf in the woods than they would have seeing some college drop out dressed up as Bullwinkle. And enjoyed real white water rafting in the Arkansas more than "Thunder River". And....

wai

Thats why fewer young adults want to learn motorcycle because its hard for them to drive a manual shift motorcycle, they prefer automatic transmission.

andys120

Some enthusiast you are.

It so happens that I am physically unable to operate a foot clutch as a result of a stroke suffered six years ago. Before that I
never bought a car that wasn't manually shifted in almost 40 years of car ownership (see my profile).

As an enthusiast I am aware that the twin-clutch shifter was actually invented by Porsche (PDK) for use in racing where it outperforms ordinary clutch systems. I would remind you that sports cars have always been patterned after race cars and I suspect the DSG/PDK shifters will find rapid acceptance among consumers of sports and performance cars.

Shipo I would remind you that although the DSG is controlled electronically to some extent, there is no torque converter and nearly as much manual control as a Stick-shift (if desired).

I take a back seat to few in my enthusiasm for sports and racing cars. :shades:

cdnpinhead

Interesting (though depressing) stuff.

I'm sat a couple dozen miles from Rocky Mountain park & share your desire for reality. Both of my kids drive manuals, and they had to work to find them in used Hondas that weren't abused. They did it, though -- took months. Call me a proud pappy.

I'm moderately confident that I'll be dead before the manual.

Time will tell.

shipo

A few points in reverse order...

Checking the Merriam-Webster dictionary for "Automatic" it says (among other things):

2 : having a self-acting or self-regulating mechanism

What it doesn't say is that the "self-acting or self-regulating mechanism" requires a torque converter. Hence my assertion that any and all SMGish and DSGish transmissions are "Automatic" transmissions.

Regarding your stroke, you have my heart felt condolences. All I can say is that after working with my daughter for the last nine years to help her overcome her stroke induced hemi-paresis it is truly amazing what can be accomplished. So, here's hoping that you will once again be able to drive your first love, a car with three pedals. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

A few points in reverse order...

Checking the Merriam-Webster dictionary for "Automatic" it says (among other things):

2 : having a self-acting or self-regulating mechanism (i.e. an automatic transmission)

What it doesn't say is that the "self-acting or self-regulating mechanism" requires a torque converter. Hence my assertion that any and all SMGish and DSGish transmissions are "Automatic" transmissions.

Regarding your stroke, you have my heart felt condolences. All I can say is that after working with my daughter for the last nine years to help her overcome her stroke induced hemi-paresis it is truly amazing what can be accomplished. So, here's hoping that you will once again be able to drive your first love, a car with three pedals. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

boaz47

the manual and enthusiast are inclusive. I don't know that a Bi-plane pilot was a better pilot than a Fly by wire F-15 pilot is either. They are simply different. I believe Autoweek mentioned that the 2007 911 Targa has a DSG as an option in the future as well. It already has a Tiptronic as an option. Not saying that is a good or bad thing only that it is offered. But very few people are transmission enthusiasts at least fewer than what we might call car enthusiasts. In the Mussel car days the manual was not the transmission of choice and those guys were enthusiasts. In fact I used to believe that anyone that couldn't wrench on their own car and replace a saginaw or Muncie or even a GM350 , 400 or 700R4 wasn't much of an enthusiast and more of a pretender.

It wasn't till I started chatting in forums like these I realized there were people that based their definition of enthusiast on their transmission choice. However I am not sure someone can call themselves and enthusiast if they don't have a Air Ratchet, air chisel, and an impact wrench with a full set of impact deep sockets, and the complete collection of Chiltons for every car they have now and have had in the past. :P

habitat1

"It so happens that I am physically unable to operate a foot clutch as a result of a stroke suffered six years ago. Before that I never bought a car that wasn't manually shifted in almost 40 years of car ownership (see my profile)."

I respectfully withdraw my "some enthusiast" comment. I was unaware of your physical limitation and apologize for appearing insensitive.

ateixeira

I say no, it's an automated manual, but this is another case of our traditional definitions becoming outdated.

A CVT is different than an automatic as well. To me an automatic is a slush box, i.e. an ATF filled torque converter.

-juice

andys120

Apology accepted but further to your point I forsee the day when some enthusiasts will prefer the DSG/PDK because it delivers better performance and mileage.

Not to mention it's what the latest race cars use.

boaz47

So that begs the question. Is an automated manual the best of both worlds or the worst? Is there something more pleasing driving a manual with a third pedal as opposed to driving one without? We often talk like we are shifting between gears all day long so we get that connection with the road and the vehicle. But in truth we spend most of out time in first or Fifth, or sixth if you have one. As an example my drive to work consists of something like the following. First 1/4 to 1/2 mile is in second gear, maybe third if I am feeling lazy. The next three miles I have one stop so I get back into first and up to third till I hit the main mountain road. The next 16 miles are in 5th. Two more stops and I get on the freeway. The next 10 miles I am in fifth. If I catch the two lights just right the I don't have to down shift before the freeway so I am in fifth for about 27 of my 32 mile drive. Just how much more satisfying could that be to someone? Coming home is all up hill so I do have the option of driving in 4th all the way home with the exception of three stop lights and two stop signs and the shift into first as I park in the driveway. I can see no reason that every day driving couldn't be accomplished every bit as efficiently by an on board computer pushing the clutch those few times. The weekend jaunts might be another question but not commuting the way I do. And when I commuted to LA I can promise you I was either in 5th of first/second 80 percent of the time.

I have to wonder how many of us row our own gears and how many simply cruise along in top gear 90 percent of the time.

ateixeira

True, but that 10% is the most painful - bumper-to-bumper traffic.

I'm a hardcore clutch enthusiast, but one trip from CT to DC took me 10 full hours to drive, instead of the usual 5 or so, and my left knee was KILLING me when I got home. I'm sure my right foot would have been sore in an auto, but not nearly as bad.

DSG gives you the control of a manual without having to use your left leg. Fans might even argue that left leg can be on the dead pedal (where it should be) so that you stay more securely in place.

I do have serious concerns - what's the cost of replacing two clutches instead of one? Why does it cost $1400 extra on an A3, does it actually cost that much more to produce or is it a market value?

-juice

habitat1

"I forsee the day when some enthusiasts will prefer the DSG/PDK because it delivers better performance and mileage....Not to mention it's what the latest race cars use. "

I think I've tried to make the race car comparison point a few times without success, so this will be my last attempt (today).

A Formula One car is capable of 2.5-3.0 g's in hard cornering. At those speeds/forces, having both hands on the wheel while shifting gears is a big advantage. I forgot which 1970's vintage driver it was, but one of them won an arm-wrestling tournament and "worked-out" for racing season by doing sets of 100lb arm curls. And he wasn't a big guy.

But nothing that we drive on the street can remotely come close to those forces. And, more importantly, nothing made by Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, Audi or anyone else can match the speed with which those race car SMG/DSG's shift. Partly because neither you nor I want to replace our transmission every 1,000 miles and replace our tires every 150 miles. So, as far as THIS enthusiast goes, I am happier sticking with a really precise direct feedback, positive engagement three peddle manual than any SMG's I've driven. Hell, I can't even push my 911S to it's 1.0 g limit.

I have driven the 911 Tip (automatic), the BMW M3 and M5 SMG's and several others. They do NOT outperform their respective 6-speed manuals in either my definition of performance or fun to drive. Supposedly, the Ferrari 430 is one of the best SMG's out there, but I would still opt for a 6-speed in all likelihood.

I think we should agree that no-one is the "Webster" authority to define "enthusiast". Some may go for DSG, but this one will likely stick with a manual. And I bet I will be pushing up daisies before Porsche refuses to give me that choice.

carlisimo

I've had bad days that left my left knee hurting or kinda beat up.

It's a problem with clutch pedals; ankle power (as with the right pedal) isn't enough for most clutches. The travel is longer in some cars too and the spring pushes your foot off, which can lead to knee-steering wheel interference.

Why can't they make a clutch pedal be more like one of the other pedals?

stickguy

were you driving your SUbe?

I very rarely have gotten stuck in enough creeper traffic, with hills, for it to matter much. But, how heavy the clutch is can make a big difference.

At one time, we had a Legacy and a 626 ('91 and '92 vintage), both 5 speeds (bet you haven't seen too many stick Legacy wagons! Yet, I digress...)

The mazda had a nice light, but great feel, clutch. I could creep all day in that one, no problem. But, the Subaru had a very stiff clutch. Not a problem normally, but after getting stuck in NYC traffic once, my left leg was quivering.

Also got a bit tired once in my Mystique, which was also a bit stiff, but that was getting caught on a long ramp (Harlem river onto the Triboro) for close to an hour, with a lot of slipping required.

My Accord has a nice smooth, light clutch, so no bother in traffic, especially on a flat highway, where if I happen to be stopped, it is probably in neutral anyway.

shipo

"I say no, it's an automated manual, but this is another case of our traditional definitions becoming outdated.

A CVT is different than an automatic as well. To me an automatic is a slush box, i.e. an ATF filled torque converter."

Please look at both the definitions and the etymology of the two words "Automatic" and "Manual" in any dictionary you choose and you will find nothing that suggests that SMG and DSG transmissions are anything other than "Automatic" transmissions, nothing. While I will grant you that these two transmissions are better "Automatic" transmissions than any other type of "Automatic" transmission available, they are still a far cry from a true "Manual" transmission.

Now, if you want to define an entirely new class of transmissions and call them "Mechanical Automatics" (as opposed to "Fluid Automatics"), I don't believe that will contradict with the established definitions of any word involved.

I've taken the liberty to included the definitions and etymology for the two adjectives in question from two very different dictionaries:

From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: au•to•mat•ic
Function: adjective
Etymology: Greek automatos self-acting, from aut- + -matos (akin to Latin ment-, mens mind) -- more at MIND
1 a : largely or wholly involuntary; especially : REFLEX 5 [automatic blinking of the eyelids] b : acting or done spontaneously or unconsciously c : done or produced as if by machine : MECHANICAL [the answers were automatic]
2 : having a self-acting or self-regulating mechanism [an automatic transmission]
3 of a firearm : firing repeatedly until the trigger is release

Main Entry: man•u•al
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English manuel, from Anglo-French, from Latin manualis, from manus hand; akin to Old English mund hand and perhaps to Greek marE hand
1 a : of, relating to, or involving the hands [manual dexterity] b : worked or done by hand and not by machine [a manual transmission] [manual computation] [manual indexing]
2 : requiring or using physical skill and energy [manual labor] [manual workers]

From The American Heritage dic•tion•ary of The English Language:

au•to•mat•ic adj. 1a. Acting or operating in a manner essentially independent of external influence or control: an automatic light switch; an budget deficit that triggered automatic spending cuts. b. Self-regulating: an automatic washing machine. 2a. Acting or done without volition or conscious control; involuntary: automatic shrinking of the pupils of the eyes in strong light. See synonyms at spontaneous. b. Acting or done as if by machine; mechanical: an automatic reply to a familiar question. 3a. Capable of firing continuously until ammunition is exhausted or the trigger is released: an automatic rifle. b. Semiautomatic: an automatic pistol. + n. 1. An automatic machine or device. 2a. An automatic firearm. b. A semiautomatic firearm. 3. A transmission or a motor vehicle with an automatic gear-shifting mechanism.
Etymology: From Greek automatos : auto-, auto- + matos, willing.

man•u•al adj. 1a. Of or relating to the hands: manual skill. b. Done by, used by, or operated with the hands. c. Employing human rather than mechanical energy: manual labor. 2. Of, relating to, or resembling a small reference book. + n. 1. A small reference book, especially one giving instructions. 2. Music A keyboard, as of an organ or harpsichord, played with the hands. 3. A machine operated by hand. 4. Prescribed movements in the handling of a weapon, especially a rifle: the manual of arms.
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French manuel, from Latin manualis, from manus, hand. See MANUS.

As one can plainly see, the words themselves are in no need of being updated, and to apply the "Manual" appellation to the SMGs and DSGs of the world is clearly a misuse of our language.

Best Regards,
Shipo

carlisimo

I can see why they call them manuals though - it works like one, under the skin. Maybe it's fair to call them "standard" transmissions because they use all the parts of the original manuals.

But to me, any transmission that doesn't require driver input to shift is an automatic. A computer can do the shifting, and that's the automatic part. DSG is automatic with manual override (albeit a very, very good one). SMGs... do they all shift on their own?

boaz47

after reading these posts we can see that some of the new computer assisted auto/manual transmission at least address some of the issues the consumer has with the current transmission choices we have. We have read about several people complaining about heavy traffic, long uphill creeping and things like that being less than fun in their manuals. Notice this is from honest people that already drive manuals. We also have listened to some complain about the disconnected feeling and power loss of the current automatic transmissions offered. CVTs and Computer assisted transmissions do offer a solution to those very concerns. Neither the current manuals nor the current automatics have addressed that to date.

The concern about having to replace the transmission more often because race cars now replace their's more often doesn't wash because race cars have to replace traditional manuals far more often than the average consumer car as it is. No one worries about replacing a clutch plate or rebuilding their six speed over night just because WRC cars have to just about every race.

Personal preference is always a good reason to pick a transmission. It isn't a reason for a manufacturer to offer that preference if not enough people buy that option. So if you live in the US and you are looking at the trends of the car buying public you might wonder if the third pedal dog leg manual will see it through another generation or maybe two? Fluid drive automatics might suffer the same fate but isn't that how progress works?

andys120

I have to agree with you that the DSG is not needed in day to day driving for the reasons that it's used in racing. I do believe the fact that it's employed in many high performance racing cars will lead to many enthusiats wanting to have it in their car, it's just the way some think.

After all ultra-wide tires and ceramic brakes aren't needed in ordinary street driving, nor are 4 or 500 HP.

boaz47

And isn't that how automotive evolution so often works. Bucket seats? Low profile tires, sure aren't good for mileage but they stick better than high profile tires. remember when everyone had racing stripes on their Pintos and Maverics. I even saw a B-210 with them. And after racing related gadgets we like buttons to push and automatic things when we are cruising. Most of us don't care how many gears our car has going from LA to Vagas. A good sound system, power seats, air conditioning, a radar detector, cruise control and we are set for several hours. I was thinking about that listening to our sound system with the air and cruise control on driving my wife's car to Palm Springs the other day. And when it came time to go home I wondered why I didn't get the auto start feature so I could have started the car and let it cool down before the drive home. But alas that feature doesn't come with a manual.

ateixeira

stickguy: this was our Legacy, the clutch is about average weight. My Forester has a lighter clutch. We had a 626 as well and it was between the two in terms of effort.

But...after 10 hours behind the wheel, you want that left foot on a dead pedal.

shipo: DSG allows for manual selection of gears, so I'm sure about your statement:

nothing that suggests that SMG and DSG transmissions are anything other than "Automatic"

Automatic should mean it chooses gears for you. DSG can, but doesn't have to, so it's still a gray area.

-juice

shipo

"shipo: DSG allows for manual selection of gears, so I'm sure about your statement:

nothing that suggests that SMG and DSG transmissions are anything other than "Automatic"

Automatic should mean it chooses gears for you. DSG can, but doesn't have to, so it's still a gray area."

===============================================

Ummm, no, the SMGs and the DSGs of the world do not allow for the manual selection of the gears any more than a slushbox manumatic does, maybe even less so. What it does allow for is the manual triggering of a gear selection request. Said request then interrupts the computer and asks for a gear change. The computer then takes that request and determines if the requested gear change is safe and within the preprogrammed parameters that would allow such a change. Assuming that the COMPUTER "approves" the gear change, then and only then does the COMPUTER trigger the necessary events to change the actual gears.

Said another way, the DSGs and SMGs are Automatic transmissions that include extra programming to allow for a little more user interactivity. That having been said, Manual transmissions they ain't. Do they implement the Automatic model of shifting using a mechanical gear box and clutch? Yes. The problem here is that "Automatic" versus "Mechanical" isn't an "Apples to Apples" comparison.

Said yet another way, and forgetting CVTs for the moment, the market is currently offering Automatic/Fluid coupled transmissions, Automatic/Mechanically coupled transmissions and Manual/Mechanically coupled transmissions. Of those, only the latter is a true Manual transmission.

Best Regards,
Shipo

boaz47

Just to toss out another transmission then? How does the sequencial manual paddle shifter work in a WRC car? It does seem as if they can manually over ride the computer and I don't think it will shift without being told to do so. Plus there is no third pedal and a straight up or back shifter on the wheel or on a stick in the floor. If they can make one for a Small WRC 4 banger couldn't they make one for the street? I know I am dreaming but thinking of sitting in a sports car at the beginning of Ortega Highway or on club day at Laguna Seca with a paddle shifter makes me smile.

shipo

Even with a sequential manual paddle shifted manual that cannot be overridden and will not shift without being told to, it is not a full manual transmission in my book (close but not quite). Why? Because (as I understand it) there is still a computer between the paddle and the transmission and it is that computer that triggers the various events (i.e. clutch disengagement and reengagement & gear deselect and selection) that actually do the shift. Said another way, the driver isn't doing anything other than asking for a new gear, and that qualifies as a semi-automatic in my mind.

A rough analogy occurs to me to differentiate the DSG from the WRC transmission; think of the M-16 "Automatic" rifle, in full automatic mode it will continue to shoot as long as the trigger is depressed or until it empties the magazine. Then think of its sibling the AR-15, same basic rifle with almost every part fully interchangeable, however, the selector has been changed such that the full automatic mode cannot be selected, and as such it is a "Semi-Automatic" rifle.

Best Regards,
Shipo

boaz47

And in you example of the transmission, not the gun, isn't the difference simply that there is a computer between the driver and the clutch rather than hydrolic fluid? In most modern cars there is no direct connection between the third pedal and the clutch. There is a piston, actuated by a cable and presses on a fork touching a throw out bearing moving disengaging or engaging the clutch based on the design of the aforementioned piston. No true adjustment can be made because there is no true connection between the driver and the clutch. Heavy or light clutch pedals are controlled by clutch pedal springs and the piston resistance not the stiffness of the clutch Pressure Plate springs. Once again there is fluid between the driver and the clutch. I understand that they are working on an electric servo to replace the hydrolic one we commonly see in today's manuals. If a servo replaces the hydrolic piston is it still a manual? They have already replaced some hydrolic pistons in some higher end cars for the operation of brakes and have used that system in trailers for some time. My old Subaru used a electronic servo piston to engage the differential locks so they can work. In fact it worked better than the manual stick on my old Jeep. There is no way in fact one can feel the clutch engage through the foot in a modern car because the force between the pedal and shifting fork in multiplied by the hydrolic fluid forced out of the reservoir into the clutch shifting piston. All you feel is the resistance programed into the pedal by the hydrolic piston design. You don't feel the clutch any more than you feel the brakes except as programed by the power booster and the hydrolic pistons in the brake calipers themselves.

So is a full manual one that has a direct connection to the shifting fork like pre-hydrolic actuated clutches? Or have we come to a point where hydrolic pistons, connected by a cable the allows fluid to flow into and out of a piston represent full contact with the clutch?

carlisimo

"...there is still a computer between the paddle and the transmission and it is that computer that triggers the various events..."

That's kinda how the throttle and steering work in an increasing number of cars. Mercedes Benz tried to make braking work that way too. This hasn't happened in racing because those systems are heavier, but... shoot, I'm off on a tangent.

If a computer-operated DSG system couldn't be set on automatic mode (ie you HAD to use the paddles), I'd call it manual.

shipo

Differentiating between "hydraulic", "cable" and "lever and rod clutch" style clutch linkages is clouding the issue. I've had cars that have used all three methods to translate leg motion into pressure plate motion, and I really don't see your point at all. The fact is that if your left leg moves the clutch pedal slowly, the pressure plate moves slowly, and if you move it fast, the plate moves fast as well. If your leg moves the pedal a long distance, the pressure plate moves a long distance. No real difference.

As far as feel goes, the only time I could ever "feel" clutch engagement on any car that I've ever driven was when the clutch assembly was worn out or "chattering", and to my leg at least, the feel transmitted through the linkage was no different. In essence, all three kinds of linkages are "manual" linkages because the driver is directly controlling the mechanicals through the effort of his or her left leg.

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

"If a computer-operated DSG system couldn't be set on automatic mode (ie you HAD to use the paddles), I'd call it manual."

Nope, if you look at how that system operates (which as I previously posted and you then quoted: "...there is still a computer between the paddle and the transmission and it is that computer that triggers the various events...") and then look at the true meaning of the various terms bandied about here, that transmission would be a "Semi-Automatic", not a "Manual". It ain't a manual transmission unless the driver has direct control of the mechanicals via some form of a linkage (regardless of whether it is hydraulic, cable, rod or lever and rod).

What I don't understand is why folks have their knickers in such a twist over this issue. The English language is very successful at describing technical and scientific things regardless of whether they are in the Automotive realm, or Computer, or Medical, or Nano-Bot. Said another way, the "English" language is second to none when it comes to communicating technical ideas and concepts. Calling a WRC transmission a "Manual" doesn't properly identify the device simply because it is "Semi-Automatic" in nature. The same thing goes for the DSGs and SMGs, they cannot be called "Manual" transmissions simply because they can be operated in one of two (and ONLY two) modes, "Automatic" and "Semi-Automatic".

I rest my case.

Best Regards,
Shipo

boaz47

So a an electronic servo would still be a direct connection? We aren't in a twist we are simply pointing out that many of the functions you already use are computer controlled and the clutch could easily be just another one of them. I only pointed out the hydrolic piston because the release of fluid is not, directly, connected to the release of your foot. We often make a distinction between a hydrolic jack and a mechanical one. There is a slight delay cause by the fluid moving back into the reservoir after you release the clutch. In theory the manufacturer can slow the release to the point where the clutch seems light or heavy depending on personal preference. It is one of the reasons it is so much easier to drive a car with a hydrolic activated clutch because it is harder, note not impossible, to stall. It would be no big challenge to slow the fluid release to a point where stalling in the proper gear is almost impossible. Harder on the clutch plate however. The debate has moved to the John Henery verses the machine point of view. The fear, only as I see it, is that the human connection is not as necessary as it once was. But that is the direction we are heading in. What happens today when we have a laps in concentration running up a long on ramp attempting to wring our every last ounce of performance from your car. You forget and allow it to pass red line and what happens? Didn't you have direct control of your throttle right up to the point you exceeded the limits someone that designed the vehicle decided you had gone too far? Does that over ride make the throttle response an automatic one?

But if we are talking about manual clutch engagement I see your point. I can even agree. And from that point of view I realize the most advanced race cars in the world are all automatics. From F-1 and Alms to WRC there isn't a top class manual in the bunch. I am not sure this forum would agree however. Not that we often do.