So any four-door performance oriented sedan without a MT is fine in your book as well? I am asking that because I see the M5 as the king of sports sedans so if that's fine without a MT I am assuming that the lesser models like the 3-series, G, TL, C-class, A4 and the IS should be as well.
So any four-door performance oriented sedan without a MT is fine in your book as well? I am asking that because I see the M5 as the king of sports sedans so if that's fine without a MT I am assuming that the lesser models like the 3-series, G, TL, C-class, A4 and the IS should be as well.
Absolutely. I'm definitely not one of those "you'll have to pry the clutch pedal from my cold, dead foot" types. I have no love for the new M5 though. Two settings for the diff, three settings for engine power, something like seven settings for the SMG, at least two settings for the suspension, and it just goes on and on. It's beyond ridiculous. There's an infinitely variable control for engine power settings found in all cars, its called the throttle, and it doesn't require delving into iDrive to access. There's a shortcut on the floor. The Quattroporte automatic doesn't require you to pick one of 73 performance and handling settings, and I would much rather drive that than the M5.
For most cars, a rev-matching autobox does the job quite well. The ZF six-speed is a prime example. Mercedes' latest version of the 7GTronic in the C63 is also supposed to be excellent. For the UHP stuff, I see MTs being replaced by dual clutch sequential transmissions pretty much across the board. Three pedals on the floor and a stick on the console will probably go the way of leaded fuel and bias ply tires.
It'll be a very hard choice between the Quattroporte and M5 to me though because on one hand I absolutely love the design of the Quattroporte but on the other hand M5 has been my dream car for years. However, I wouldn't be mind to be put in that situation though. :P
The head of a group that represents Jaguar car dealers in the U.S. is warning Ford Motor Co. against selling its premium Jaguar brand to either of two interested bidders from India because of what he called "unique image issues."
I don't believe the U.S. public is ready for ownership out of India" of a luxury-car brand such as Jaguar, Mr. Gorin said in an interview. "I believe it would severely throw a tremendous cast of doubt over the viability of the brand."
Mr. Gorin said he wasn't judging the management capabilities of Tata or Mahindra. "My concern is perception [in the marketplace], and perception is reality," he said. "It's about saying there are unique image issues with two of the bidders that the other one doesn't have."
There are a number of subjective items that create the luster of a brand," Mr. Gorin said. "I don't mean to be negative towards anyone. I don't think we could have a Chinese-owned Jaguar" either, he said.
So what if the Indian firm Tata (auto manufacturer and owner of other luxury marques) can produce a Jaguar that is not only equivalent but even better than Ford or a western Private Equity firm? Not good enough based solely on the image of the new owners who happened to be born in the wrong country. :sick:
Mr. Gorin said U.S. dealers also prefer One Equity Partners because the man leading its pursuit of Jaguar and Land Rover is Jacques Nasser, a managing director at the firm. Mr. Nasser championed investment in Ford's European luxury brands when he was chief executive of the Dearborn, Mich., auto maker from 1999 until 2001.
Well aint that rich. Jacques Nasser who has destroyed Ford by putting them into non-Auto making businesses is going to turnaround Jaguar. :lemon:
Well aint that rich. Jacques Nasser who has destroyed Ford by putting them into non-Auto making businesses is going to turnaround Jaguar.
No kidding.
Y' know, Dewey, I used to think that only weathermen could be wrong so often and still keep their jobs... but I've learned that the head of an auto manufacturer can also be wrong on a consistent basis, and still have a job long enough to cause massive damage to a major company with global interests... simply shocking!
The words 'pathetic' and 'tragic' are not nearly descriptive enough.
Edit: With regards to Jaguar's ownership coming from India... there are legitimate perception issues. And... I have no long-term outlook that Jaguar will ever be saved.
With regards to Jaguar's ownership coming from India... there are legitimate perception issues. And... I have no long-term outlook that Jaguar will ever be saved.
There are Jaguar perception issues independent of India. Owning this great brand from the past is like owning a history book with old yellow pages and nothing else. There is no reason to own a Jaguar since relative to competitors there is nothing really that makes a Jaguar stand out. NOTHING! Except for its glorious past.
Tata needs a premium brand like Jaguar since they need the margins of a luxury brand to fund their new $2,500 car which will likely sell like hotcakes in the emerging markets. Even with high volume a $2,500 car will produce a scant margin that may not even exceed $100 (In 06 BMW made about $2,800 profit margins on each of their vehicles--more than the whole price of this new Tata car). .
There are Jaguar perception issues independent of India.
Of course. All the more reason to NOT complicate matters by adding yet another additional perception issue. Additional perception issue = BAD IDEA.
There is no reason to own a Jaguar since relative to competitors there is nothing really that makes a Jaguar stand out. NOTHING! Except for its glorious past.
Nothing?... That's a bit over the top. I disagree, and won't take a defensive posture. As Jaguar owners, I expect blkhemi and lexusguy might also disagree, but I can't speak for them. That said, I don't think the world would miss Jaguar a whole lot after its demise, should that actually happen... the "glorious" days that you mentioned do seem to be long gone, however, "glorious" is not a definitive requirement for a legitimate current day existence for Jaguar, or any auto manufacturer, for that matter.
Infiniti, MB, BMW, Lexus, Audi and Porsche are all marques that have models that stand out relative to the competition.
Jaguar? Which models stand out for their excellence relative to the competition?
I cant think of any. Nor do I mean to offend anyone with this post of mine.
If Tata took over BMW or MB and manufactured excellent cars like the BMW335i and MB S550's would image be a big deal? No not much of a big deal at all because these cars are excellent cars. BUT with Jaguar image is almost everything.
Regarding India--India has among the BEST universities for technology and engineering in the world (India Institute of Technology). This is a country with enough brains to produce some potentially intersesting cars.
Infiniti, MB, BMW, Lexus, Audi and Porsche are all marques that have models that stand out relative to the competition.
Jaguar? Which models stand out for their excellence relative to the competition?
I cant think of any. Nor do I mean to offend anyone with this post of mine.
"Standing out" isn't a definitive requirement in order for Jaguar, or any manufacturer, to be legitimate. Certainly, it's a good attribute. Heck, some here might argue that Acura doesn't really "stand out" compared to its competitors. I guess, you could then argue that it offers "NOTHING" that couldn't be had from its competition... with the possible exception of the MDX, and even if that didn't exist, the world could easily find an alternative.
I just don't buy the argument, that's all... and I'm not taking it personally, trust me. I've always posted that my Jag was never my first choice. It just kind of happened with the wife, but I would never say the marque as a whole has NOTHING going for it. That's just not my impression of Jaguar. Sure, I like my Porsche better... and, yes, it "stands out". But, so what?
If Tata took over BMW or MB and manufactured excellent cars like the BMW335i and MB S550's would image be a big deal? No not much of a big deal at all because these cars are excellent cars. BUT with Jaguar image is almost everything.
Regarding India--India has among the BEST universities for technology and engineering in the world (India Institute of Technology). This is a country with enough brains to produce some potentially interesting cars.
Yes, India has lots of brains (and many of them are very intelligent! LOL).... no argument with that! That's not an issue. The issue was the perception of Jaguar as being owned by a company from India.... many of the Jaguar dealers are arguing that it seems to clash, somehow... and I tend to agree... regardless of Tata's or India's capabilities... which is not a question.
Something about Jaguars, the ones I am drawn to are the older ones, as they draw out images of years gone by when the Jaguar was highly prized. Seen Spy Shots of the New Jaguar, but it doesn't "look" like a Jaguar. Jaguar somehow needs to come out with a new car, but IMO, if the new Jaguar does not make one think of Jaguars storied past, then I think they are missing the mark. It needs to be a blend of new and old. Also, IMO a real Jaguar has the "cat" on the front of the hood.
Customer Retention Rates JD Powers (% of buyers whose previous new model was from the same brand)
Toyota Motor Sales USA, Inc. 68.9% General Motors Corp. 64.7% American Honda Motor Co. 63.3% BMW of North America 56.9% Ford Motor Co. 54.4% Subaru of America, Inc. 51.2% Hyundai Motor America 50.9% DaimlerChrysler 50.2% Nissan North America 47.6% Maserati North America, Inc. 41.9% Porsche Cars North America 41.6% American Suzuki Motor Corp. 39.6% Volkswagen of America 38.8% Kia Motors America 32.8% Mitsubishi Motors North America Inc. 31.7% Isuzu Motors America, Inc. 1.6 %
There are a number of subjective items that create the luster of a brand," Mr. Gorin said. "I don't mean to be negative towards anyone. I don't think we could have a Chinese-owned Jaguar" either, he said.
Nobody seems to care that Lotus is owned by the Malaysians. Clearly it takes western management to turn Jag around. British Leyland and the UK Government did such a wonderful job running the company.
Jaguar? Which models stand out for their excellence relative to the competition?
Well obviously not the X or S, but is the Jag XKR better than a BMW 650? You betcha! It's better than the SL550 as well, and way better than Lexus' pathetic failure of a luxury GT convertible, and better than Cadillac's pathetic failure of a luxury GT convertible. The Maserati GT may edge out the coupe, but I would say the XKR drop top is best in class. Despite the fact that the XF looks like a cross between the Volvo S80 and the Lexus GS, preliminary reports seem to indicate that its quite good as well.
I personally see a huge difference between the Lotus cars and that XKR you mentioned. The current Lotus vehicles aren't even in the same league, IMO.
I wasn't really trying to imply that Lotus makes luxury cars, just that Lotus customers don't seem to be bothered by the fact that the company is owned by Proton. Nobody seems to be saying "if only Lotus was run by Jacques Nasser, then they'd have some decent cars". Also, the new Espirit is going to cost far more than any current Jag.
I wasn't really trying to imply that Lotus makes luxury cars, just that Lotus customers don't seem to be bothered by the fact that the company is owned by Proton.
Well, I actually represent an example of a Lotus customer AND a Jaguar customer, and I can tell you that I agree that I had only slight reservations about Lotus being owned by Proton, but I would be more concerned about Jaguar being owned by Tata.
Many Jaguar dealers have joined together to express their concerns, and I have posted that I tend to agree with their perspective... because I can see the legitimacy of their concerns about the perception of Jaguar under India's Tata ownership.
So, how could it get much worse for Jaguar anyway? Well... let's see... after the ER, there's the OR, and there's the ICU, and then there's either the RR, or there's the morgue.
So, how could it get much worse for Jaguar anyway? Well... let's see... after the ER, there's the OR, and there's the ICU, and then there's either the RR, or there's the morgue.
The XF and the next XJ will make or break the company. The XKR is a world beater, a very impressive feat considering Jag is going into battle with 10 year old engines and no money, but its too much of a niche product. If the XF and XJ can't pull enough people away from 5/E and 7/S, then it's lights out, say hi to Triumph and Austin for me.
Well obviously not the X or S, but is the Jag XKR better than a BMW 650? You betcha! It's better than the SL550 as well, and way better than Lexus' pathetic failure of a luxury GT convertible
Agree. BMW 650 and SL500 are both models that I personally neglect to think about. There is a demand for boulevard cruisers but for me the sacrifice of rear seat space and two doors for the minimal gains in terms of performance/sport is just a bit too much. I'd pick a BMW550 over a BMW650 anyday even if they were priced equivalently.
Clearly it takes western management to turn Jag around. British Leyland and the UK Government did such a wonderful job running the company
Just as wonderfully as when BMW eagerly took over Land Rover only to neglect it while developing their own BMW X5. The most important question is MANAGEMENT not IMAGE. If Tata could outsource the technology for class-beating Jaguars and in the future develop that technolgy by themselves then Jaguar's image will definitley improve. Also if I am not mistaken most Jags will still be built in Britain independent of whether Tata or a western Private Equity group owns it. In otherwords the British IMAGE of Jag should remain intact even if its under the potentially better management of Tata. Therefore this whole Image question of an Indian company with Jaguar is bunk.
Two of the best brands in the auto industry has been tarnished by Western management: Volvo and Jaguar. Despite the billions spent on these brands Ford has little to show for them.
The worst case scenario for Jaguar: Jacque Nasser's managemnet of the company. For the sake of Jaguar I hope Tata buys it.
Regarding India--India has among the BEST universities for technology and engineering in the world (India Institute of Technology). This is a country with enough brains to produce some potentially interesting cars.
Yeah, India has come a long way... and has a very long way to go as well. I have been dealing directly with Indian manufacturers for over 10 years and the change during this time is remarkable. And yet still very different from what we are accustomed to in so many ways.
Perhaps the auto industry will focus on India for the computers in their cars. Oh boy, can you imagine having an issue and when you call your dealer you are connected to India Customer Support? :sick:
Well obviously not the X or S, but is the Jag XKR better than a BMW 650? You betcha! It's better than the SL550 as well, and way better than Lexus' pathetic failure of a luxury GT convertible, and better than Cadillac's pathetic failure of a luxury GT convertible. The Maserati GT may edge out the coupe, but I would say the XKR drop top is best in class. Despite the fact that the XF looks like a cross between the Volvo S80 and the Lexus GS, preliminary reports seem to indicate that its quite good as well
Ok, but despite your enthusiasm for the Jaguar cars. The market has spoken and they have spoken with a resounding silence, no one is buying their cars. Lexus, BMW, & Mercedes are very strong at their core and each of them can afford to have a model ( ex. Lexus SC430 ) that is not successful. Jaguar does not have that luxury, they need every model to be a hit. They are where they are because they are not selling cars. They are competing at the high end of the market and quite frankly, they are getting their fannies kicked. I am all for a resurection of Jaguar, but they have a tough road in front of them.
Two of the best brands in the auto industry has been tarnished by Western management: Volvo and Jaguar. Despite the billions spent on these brands Ford has little to show for them.
Agree. Imagine if Ford had actually bought Ferrari in the '60s. What kind of disaster would that have been? Jag already has Ian Callum, now they just need somebody like Dr. Bez to run the day-to-day. It's the guy on the front lines who gets things done right, not management at Ford, or Tata Motors. They need a new V8 with at least 350hp, and a new XJ that actually looks different from the last one. It doesn't matter where the checks come from.
Ok, but despite your enthusiasm for the Jaguar cars. The market has spoken and they have spoken with a resounding silence, no one is buying their cars.
Jag and Ford made one mistake after another. Killing off the F-type so they could make a diesel engine was a mistake. (Why not just buy a diesel from Volvo or the French?). Deciding Jag needed to go after the 3 series and C class was another one, as was expanding capacity before seeing any results, using the Mondeo, and rushing it to market. The original S-type interior wasn't even Lincoln quality. And of course the current XJ looks so much like the last one that they could've just refreshed the old car again, and saved themselves buckets of cash. I agree that they have a very tough road ahead. If the XF and the new XJ fail in the market, its all over. There's plenty of "pace and grace" at the Maserati dealership.
This has gotten interesting. Dewey has gone from "nothing" from Jaguar to agreeing about the XKR.
That's good...the XKR is the best of the Jag model lineup at this point... Although the style-dated all-aluminum XJ is better than many would give it credit.
But, what sells? Basically, not much of anything, lackluster across the board.
If the XKR isn't selling briskly... Then it's already curtains for Jaguar. The XF is no savior, and given the early info on the next XJ, consider what the near impossible accomplishment that must be expected of those next Jags, over and above what isn't really happening for the XK.
Using just a few words to describe the story of Jaguar = Glorious beginning, Tragic ending.
BMW created a bump on the hood to fit the V8, which is very noticeable.
Did I mention the M3?
Anyway, I would buy that car, hood bump regardless. It still looks stunning.
Also, nobody is making a rule that the factory tuner super sedans are supposed to be "wolfs in sheeps' skins" just because the Germans do so. Why can't Lexus creates its own style?
Well, they did, and it doesn't work. The Teutonic philosophy is tried and true... using subtle, elegant, integrated styling cues is what attracts buyers. People who buy AMGs, Ms and S/RS's don't want to be noticed. They (we) love the Q-ship appeal. And yes, I know, my car is probably the least-noticeable Audi S car created in the twenty-first century. And I like it that way!
why does Lexus have to make a 3-series, why can't they just make a Lexus IS?
They didn't make a 3 Series, they made an IS. And I love the IS350. It's an excellent car and it looks the part. But the IS-F? It's just too much! It will look good in black, because black will hide the awkward bits. But I like colors.
As for the wolf in the sheep's skin, do you honestly think that's the case with the new C63 AMG. I think MB is saying "let subtle be damned" this time around.
Compare the C63 AMG to a C350 Sport.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
And yes, I have always lusted after an A8 4.2TDI. It's just as fast as a normal 4.2, with 30MPG. Such an excellent car.
I am still terribly conflicted. It's down to BMWs and Audis for me, and I'll probably start test driving in the spring. But the RS6 won't be here by then! Decisions, decisions...
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
Sure I am biased but Edmunds is even more biased than me regarding the IS-F.
How so? Because they like the RS4? Does that make it unfair?
We have been talking about RS4 vs. IS-F, and beyond Edmunds, the two have not been compared.
As matter of fact they stated that this car is actually a better drive on the track than real road conditions.
Exactly, and this is their problem.
The Germans have mastered the art of balance. The BMW M3, Audi RS4 and Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG can all be taken to an enthusiastic track meet without breaking a sweat. And then, two hours later they can take you and your wife out to dinner and the theater. These vehicles offer uncompromising handling as well as perfectly-damped suspensions.
Lexus can either do one or the other, but not both. The GS450h, for example, is a wonderful car to own every day. While it doesn't offer much in terms of emotional appeal, it is loaded to the gills with luxury features and would be very forgiving after a hard day's work. On the other hand, you would be laughed at if you took it to a track.
Conversely, the IS-F is an impressive track performer. It can give the M3 or RS4 a run for their money. But then you drive it home, and realize that the suspension is super-harsh and it's not fun to have around town. It is still a compromise.
The über three don't know the definition of the word "compromise."
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
That's not been my observation entirely. I think they frequently are somewhat close... not necessarily the bullseye, but at least somewhere on target. No matter what they pick, many will disagree, so while the CTS may not be your pick or my pick, I suspect that the editors of MT fulfilled their obllgations based upon their collective opinions... which are probably as biased as any typical group of car-minded folks.
Palm greasing?... That's a big accusation, and it's another matter altogether, and I wouldn't know how anyone could ever really prove it. Maybe there are the usual reasons to be suspicious, but that's probably as far as it could ever get.
Sure, the almighty dollar can sometimes be quite "influencial"... but is that actually known to be the case with MT?
Oh boy, can you imagine having an issue and when you call your dealer you are connected to India Customer Support?
What amazes me when I deal with customer services from India is that every person I talk to there is named either Bill, George, Kate or Sally? One of them was named Sally Smith and she spoke with a deep Indian Gujarati accent :surprise:
How much will a vehicle cost during its lifetime once you include purchase costs/financing costs,insurance, fuel, depreciation, fees, taxes, repair costs and maintenance what is the most expensive car to own?
The Runzheimer study balanced out those costs against a 36-month/60,000-mile ownership cycle.
A Cadillac STS was number one with $19, 535 Annual Costs
The Lexus LS460 was second place with $19,372 Annual Costs
I have not a clue if the MB S550 or BMW 750 was included in the survey. All I know is that many of the top notch Italian Exotics were not included in this survey.
I think they frequently are somewhat close... not necessarily the bullseye, but at least somewhere on target.
I'm not so sure about that. Some of the questionable examples: 2007 Toyota Camry, 2002 Ford Thunderbird, 2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser, 1997 Chevrolet Malibu, 1996 Dodge Caravan, 1995 Chrysler Cirrus, 1989 Ford Thunderbird SC, 1981 Chrysler K Cars, Dodge Aries / Plymouth Reliant, 1980 Chevrolet Citation, 1978 Chrysler, Dodge Omni / Plymouth Horizon. Pretty much everything they picked from the early '70s into the late '80s was junk.
I just remember reading in Autoextremist that Peter, as a former GM ad guy, knew of several instances of car companies "purchasing" OTY awards. He mentioned it when the MB GL won truck of the year, and MT described it as "Mercedes' best SUV". His opinion was that MT was up to their old tricks, that Mercedes handed them a big pile of cash, and in exchange the GL won OTY.
Anyway, I have the latest MT sitting right in front of me, and have given the COTY article a thorough once-over.
With the exception of the CTS, these are the cars that had the most glowing write-ups, in relative order:
1. Audi S5 - best acceleration and best handling of the bunch, by a long shot. They loved the styling and the interior. Why wasn't it picked? Not significant enough.
2. Chevy Malibu - dramatically improved. Delivers on GM's promises, unlike the last-gen. Why wasn't it picked? Um, I'm not quite sure.
3. Mitsubishi Lancer - great performance out of the 152hp four-banger. Sharp styling, competitive handling and an overall striking improvement over the last-gen are also strong points. Why wasn't it picked? Still not there in terms of interior quality or significance.
...And the ones that, well, didn't:
1. Ford Focus - crappy interior, tacky styling and a ghastly powertrain. The only thing they liked was the Sync system... which, not coincidentally, is the only selling point in Ford's ads.
2. Volvo C30 - while stylish and well-built, it offers little in the way of entertainment. Disappointing.
3 (tie). Dodge Avenger - the performance was alright, but they didn't like the nasty interior. 3 (tie). Subaru WRX - as most have said, the maturity dulls the fun of the last-gen.
One thing that profoundly confused me was how they rated the Chrysler T&C's interior at five stars... while the Dodge Caravan got two stars and the Audi TT, four (S5 got five). The only thing they mentioned about the Chrysler's interior was the lighting, but perhaps they were referring to the versatility? But isn't this the same as in the Caravan? Confused... and thinking of writing them about it.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
So let me get this straight... You read about this Peter guy who is a "whistleblower" against Motor Trend and states that the COTY or TOTY titles were available to the manufacters that were willing to shell out the green?... But he doesn't actually do anything other than say the accusation? He offers no evidence?
I don't know, LG. Something's missing there. And it just seems too risky for Motor Trend to conduct itself that way... With so much on the line.
You read about this Peter guy who is a "whistleblower" against Motor Trend and states that the COTY or TOTY titles were available to the manufacters that were willing to shell out the green?... But he doesn't actually do anything other than say the accusation? He offers no evidence?
I don't remember exactly what he said in his column, just that at least in its past, MT used to engage in the practice, and that the GL winning SUV OTY sounded to him like another OTY for sale. Regardless, I generally don't think MT has much credibility to begin with, and they seem to be in total denial about the fact that their magazine is essentially a dinosaur. In their "OMGWRXLOL" article, they seemed to think that nobody had seen the car until MT broke with their "exclusive pictures". Yeah, right. They're generally better than Automobile, but not by much.
I usually speed read through Motor Trend and Automobile without pondering much on what I had just read (MT--the G35 is better than the BMW335i--huhh???) but I spend more thorough time reading the more worthy mags like Car & Driver, Road & Track and two British mags called Car and Autocar.
The Consumers Report I avoid like the plague and after reading some of the views of some CR readers I feel blessed for my avoidance.
I'm not in disagreement with you about the meciocre quality level of MT, as your post and Dewey's subsequent post point out. And, I'm in no way defending their quality or their recent COTY choice, the Cadillac CTS.
However, when I posted the COTY winner on the forum, you responded with more feedback than just the sub-par quality of MT. Essentially, you strongly suggested that the COTY award was for sale.
That's diffferent than mentioning that you view their content as being of lesser quality than the content in Car & Driver and some others.
So... just to be totally clear, I agree with you and Dewey about the content (although I still read it!), as it generally speaks for itself anyway... but I am not able to determine with any confidence that the COTY award can be bought with some major palm greasing, as you alleged.
TagMan
Note to Dewey: With regards to CR, you and the rest of the guys all know my opinion of THAT rag, as I make no secret about it... CR sucks... IMveryHO.
So... just to be totally clear, I agree with you and Dewey about the content (although I still read it!), as it generally speaks for itself anyway... but I am not able to determine with any confidence that the COTY award can be bought with some major palm greasing, as you alleged.
Exactly. I agree.
The "magazine X is bribed by company Y!" whining has gotten old. There is nothing to back any of it up. I just take these things at face value... it was Motor Trend's evaluation, and they picked their choices because they like them. What a concept!
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
However, when I posted the COTY winner on the forum, you responded with more feedback than just the sub-par quality of MT. Essentially, you strongly suggested that the COTY award was for sale.
Nobody really knows except for MT and the winners of the OTY awards, and obviously nobody is going to say anything. Ultimately my point is that while its great for Cadillac that they won an OTY award, I don't think MT OTY really means much of anything. Winning OTY doesn't change my opinion of the car one iota. The Accord or the BMW 3 series making 10-best year after year though makes me think, hey Honda and BMW must be on to something there.
CR is great for dishwashers, or vacuum cleaners. If there is a Vacuum Cleaner Enthusiast Monthly, I have absolutely no interest in reading it. Other than that...
Absolutely. I think Top Gear is the best of the (admittedly all excellent) British automags, in addition to being the best show on TV. Clarkson's Times Online reviews also usually amusing, and you can read those for free.
I don't think MT OTY really means much of anything. Winning OTY doesn't change my opinion of the car one iota. The Accord or the BMW 3 series making 10-best year after year though makes me think, hey Honda and BMW must be on to something there.
I agree it doesn't change my mind about the car either, as you and I know better. As far as it not meaning "much of anything", I can't agree... as it does give the COTY winner some increased publicity as well as the rights to advertise itself as the COTY winner for that particular model year... not exactly worthless, from an ad man's perspective.
CR is great for dishwashers, or vacuum cleaners. If there is a Vacuum Cleaner Enthusiast Monthly, I have absolutely no interest in reading it.
LOL. Even when it comes to consumer products, the truth is that CR frequently omits many other models, sometimes the better models, and sometimes the newest ones. CR's opinion of what is best, therefore, is only chosen from those they actually review... which means that the best use for CR might be something on the order of starting a campfire, and even then, a little newspaper would be better.
which means that the best use for CR might be something on the order of starting a campfire, and even then, a little newspaper would be better.
Yes, how ridiculous is it that they just rated the porsche boxster, a well known ladies' car, as the top roadster? That alone would relegate CR to the outhouse!!
as it does give the COTY winner some increased publicity as well as the rights to advertise itself as the COTY winner for that particular model year... not exactly worthless, from an ad man's perspective.
Right, which is exactly why a car company might be interested in buying the award. Not that I'm saying that actually happens
Ah, believe me, I've read plenty of his Times Online reviews...
I want to be Jeremy Clarkson. What a dream job. He is a reviewer, of course, but he also has tremendous freedom in his writing, he can make fun of whomever he wants, and he makes millions each year doing so.
I can't really complain, though.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
Comments
Absolutely. I'm definitely not one of those "you'll have to pry the clutch pedal from my cold, dead foot" types. I have no love for the new M5 though. Two settings for the diff, three settings for engine power, something like seven settings for the SMG, at least two settings for the suspension, and it just goes on and on. It's beyond ridiculous. There's an infinitely variable control for engine power settings found in all cars, its called the throttle, and it doesn't require delving into iDrive to access. There's a shortcut on the floor. The Quattroporte automatic doesn't require you to pick one of 73 performance and handling settings, and I would much rather drive that than the M5.
For most cars, a rev-matching autobox does the job quite well. The ZF six-speed is a prime example. Mercedes' latest version of the 7GTronic in the C63 is also supposed to be excellent. For the UHP stuff, I see MTs being replaced by dual clutch sequential transmissions pretty much across the board. Three pedals on the floor and a stick on the console will probably go the way of leaded fuel and bias ply tires.
It'll be a very hard choice between the Quattroporte and M5 to me though because on one hand I absolutely love the design of the Quattroporte but on the other hand M5 has been my dream car for years. However, I wouldn't be mind to be put in that situation though. :P
I don't believe the U.S. public is ready for ownership out of India" of a luxury-car brand such as Jaguar, Mr. Gorin said in an interview. "I believe it would severely throw a tremendous cast of doubt over the viability of the brand."
Mr. Gorin said he wasn't judging the management capabilities of Tata or Mahindra. "My concern is perception [in the marketplace], and perception is reality," he said. "It's about saying there are unique image issues with two of the bidders that the other one doesn't have."
There are a number of subjective items that create the luster of a brand," Mr. Gorin said. "I don't mean to be negative towards anyone. I don't think we could have a Chinese-owned Jaguar" either, he said.
So what if the Indian firm Tata (auto manufacturer and owner of other luxury marques) can produce a Jaguar that is not only equivalent but even better than Ford or a western Private Equity firm? Not good enough based solely on the image of the new owners who happened to be born in the wrong country. :sick:
Mr. Gorin said U.S. dealers also prefer One Equity Partners because the man leading its pursuit of Jaguar and Land Rover is Jacques Nasser, a managing director at the firm. Mr. Nasser championed investment in Ford's European luxury brands when he was chief executive of the Dearborn, Mich., auto maker from 1999 until 2001.
Well aint that rich. Jacques Nasser who has destroyed Ford by putting them into non-Auto making businesses is going to turnaround Jaguar. :lemon:
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No kidding.
Y' know, Dewey, I used to think that only weathermen could be wrong so often and still keep their jobs... but I've learned that the head of an auto manufacturer can also be wrong on a consistent basis, and still have a job long enough to cause massive damage to a major company with global interests... simply shocking!
The words 'pathetic' and 'tragic' are not nearly descriptive enough.
Edit: With regards to Jaguar's ownership coming from India... there are legitimate perception issues. And... I have no long-term outlook that Jaguar will ever be saved.
TagMan
There are Jaguar perception issues independent of India. Owning this great brand from the past is like owning a history book with old yellow pages and nothing else. There is no reason to own a Jaguar since relative to competitors there is nothing really that makes a Jaguar stand out. NOTHING! Except for its glorious past.
Tata needs a premium brand like Jaguar since they need the margins of a luxury brand to fund their new $2,500 car which will likely sell like hotcakes in the emerging markets. Even with high volume a $2,500 car will produce a scant margin that may not even exceed $100 (In 06 BMW made about $2,800 profit margins on each of their vehicles--more than the whole price of this new Tata car). .
Of course. All the more reason to NOT complicate matters by adding yet another additional perception issue. Additional perception issue = BAD IDEA.
There is no reason to own a Jaguar since relative to competitors there is nothing really that makes a Jaguar stand out. NOTHING! Except for its glorious past.
Nothing?... That's a bit over the top. I disagree, and won't take a defensive posture. As Jaguar owners, I expect blkhemi and lexusguy might also disagree, but I can't speak for them. That said, I don't think the world would miss Jaguar a whole lot after its demise, should that actually happen... the "glorious" days that you mentioned do seem to be long gone, however, "glorious" is not a definitive requirement for a legitimate current day existence for Jaguar, or any auto manufacturer, for that matter.
TagMan
Jaguar? Which models stand out for their excellence relative to the competition?
I cant think of any. Nor do I mean to offend anyone with this post of mine.
If Tata took over BMW or MB and manufactured excellent cars like the BMW335i and MB S550's would image be a big deal? No not much of a big deal at all because these cars are excellent cars. BUT with Jaguar image is almost everything.
Regarding India--India has among the BEST universities for technology and engineering in the world (India Institute of Technology). This is a country with enough brains to produce some potentially intersesting cars.
Jaguar? Which models stand out for their excellence relative to the competition?
I cant think of any. Nor do I mean to offend anyone with this post of mine.
"Standing out" isn't a definitive requirement in order for Jaguar, or any manufacturer, to be legitimate. Certainly, it's a good attribute. Heck, some here might argue that Acura doesn't really "stand out" compared to its competitors. I guess, you could then argue that it offers "NOTHING" that couldn't be had from its competition... with the possible exception of the MDX, and even if that didn't exist, the world could easily find an alternative.
I just don't buy the argument, that's all... and I'm not taking it personally, trust me. I've always posted that my Jag was never my first choice. It just kind of happened with the wife, but I would never say the marque as a whole has NOTHING going for it. That's just not my impression of Jaguar. Sure, I like my Porsche better... and, yes, it "stands out". But, so what?
If Tata took over BMW or MB and manufactured excellent cars like the BMW335i and MB S550's would image be a big deal? No not much of a big deal at all because these cars are excellent cars. BUT with Jaguar image is almost everything.
Regarding India--India has among the BEST universities for technology and engineering in the world (India Institute of Technology). This is a country with enough brains to produce some potentially interesting cars.
Yes, India has lots of brains (and many of them are very intelligent! LOL).... no argument with that! That's not an issue. The issue was the perception of Jaguar as being owned by a company from India.... many of the Jaguar dealers are arguing that it seems to clash, somehow... and I tend to agree... regardless of Tata's or India's capabilities... which is not a question.
TagMan
What would we call such a challenging design... contemporary nostalgia?
TM
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Customer Retention Rates JD Powers (% of buyers whose previous new model was from the same brand)
Toyota Motor Sales USA, Inc. 68.9%
General Motors Corp. 64.7%
American Honda Motor Co. 63.3%
BMW of North America 56.9%
Ford Motor Co. 54.4%
Subaru of America, Inc. 51.2%
Hyundai Motor America 50.9%
DaimlerChrysler 50.2%
Nissan North America 47.6%
Maserati North America, Inc. 41.9%
Porsche Cars North America 41.6%
American Suzuki Motor Corp. 39.6%
Volkswagen of America 38.8%
Kia Motors America 32.8%
Mitsubishi Motors North America Inc. 31.7%
Isuzu Motors America, Inc. 1.6 %
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Nobody seems to care that Lotus is owned by the Malaysians. Clearly it takes western management to turn Jag around. British Leyland and the UK Government did such a wonderful job running the company.
Well obviously not the X or S, but is the Jag XKR better than a BMW 650? You betcha! It's better than the SL550 as well, and way better than Lexus' pathetic failure of a luxury GT convertible, and better than Cadillac's pathetic failure of a luxury GT convertible. The Maserati GT may edge out the coupe, but I would say the XKR drop top is best in class. Despite the fact that the XF looks like a cross between the Volvo S80 and the Lexus GS, preliminary reports seem to indicate that its quite good as well.
TagMan
I wasn't really trying to imply that Lotus makes luxury cars, just that Lotus customers don't seem to be bothered by the fact that the company is owned by Proton. Nobody seems to be saying "if only Lotus was run by Jacques Nasser, then they'd have some decent cars". Also, the new Espirit is going to cost far more than any current Jag.
Well, I actually represent an example of a Lotus customer AND a Jaguar customer, and I can tell you that I agree that I had only slight reservations about Lotus being owned by Proton, but I would be more concerned about Jaguar being owned by Tata.
Many Jaguar dealers have joined together to express their concerns, and I have posted that I tend to agree with their perspective... because I can see the legitimacy of their concerns about the perception of Jaguar under India's Tata ownership.
So, how could it get much worse for Jaguar anyway? Well... let's see... after the ER, there's the OR, and there's the ICU, and then there's either the RR, or there's the morgue.
TagMan
So, how could it get much worse for Jaguar anyway? Well... let's see... after the ER, there's the OR, and there's the ICU, and then there's either the RR, or there's the morgue.
The XF and the next XJ will make or break the company. The XKR is a world beater, a very impressive feat considering Jag is going into battle with 10 year old engines and no money, but its too much of a niche product. If the XF and XJ can't pull enough people away from 5/E and 7/S, then it's lights out, say hi to Triumph and Austin for me.
Agree. BMW 650 and SL500 are both models that I personally neglect to think about. There is a demand for boulevard cruisers but for me the sacrifice of rear seat space and two doors for the minimal gains in terms of performance/sport is just a bit too much.
I'd pick a BMW550 over a BMW650 anyday even if they were priced equivalently.
Clearly it takes western management to turn Jag around. British Leyland and the UK Government did such a wonderful job running the company
Just as wonderfully as when BMW eagerly took over Land Rover only to neglect it while developing their own BMW X5. The most important question is MANAGEMENT not IMAGE. If Tata could outsource the technology for class-beating Jaguars and in the future develop that technolgy by themselves then Jaguar's image will definitley improve. Also if I am not mistaken most Jags will still be built in Britain independent of whether Tata or a western Private Equity group owns it. In otherwords the British IMAGE of Jag should remain intact even if its under the potentially better management of Tata. Therefore this whole Image question of an Indian company with Jaguar is bunk.
Two of the best brands in the auto industry has been tarnished by Western management: Volvo and Jaguar. Despite the billions spent on these brands Ford has little to show for them.
The worst case scenario for Jaguar: Jacque Nasser's managemnet of the company. For the sake of Jaguar I hope Tata buys it.
Yeah, India has come a long way... and has a very long way to go as well. I have been dealing directly with Indian manufacturers for over 10 years and the change during this time is remarkable. And yet still very different from what we are accustomed to in so many ways.
Perhaps the auto industry will focus on India for the computers in their cars. Oh boy, can you imagine having an issue and when you call your dealer you are connected to India Customer Support? :sick:
Well obviously not the X or S, but is the Jag XKR better than a BMW 650? You betcha! It's better than the SL550 as well, and way better than Lexus' pathetic failure of a luxury GT convertible, and better than Cadillac's pathetic failure of a luxury GT convertible. The Maserati GT may edge out the coupe, but I would say the XKR drop top is best in class. Despite the fact that the XF looks like a cross between the Volvo S80 and the Lexus GS, preliminary reports seem to indicate that its quite good as well
Ok, but despite your enthusiasm for the Jaguar cars. The market has spoken and they have spoken with a resounding silence, no one is buying their cars. Lexus, BMW, & Mercedes are very strong at their core and each of them can afford to have a model ( ex. Lexus SC430 ) that is not successful. Jaguar does not have that luxury, they need every model to be a hit. They are where they are because they are not selling cars. They are competing at the high end of the market and quite frankly, they are getting their fannies kicked. I am all for a resurection of Jaguar, but they have a tough road in front of them.
Agree. Imagine if Ford had actually bought Ferrari in the '60s. What kind of disaster would that have been? Jag already has Ian Callum, now they just need somebody like Dr. Bez to run the day-to-day. It's the guy on the front lines who gets things done right, not management at Ford, or Tata Motors. They need a new V8 with at least 350hp, and a new XJ that actually looks different from the last one. It doesn't matter where the checks come from.
Jag and Ford made one mistake after another. Killing off the F-type so they could make a diesel engine was a mistake. (Why not just buy a diesel from Volvo or the French?). Deciding Jag needed to go after the 3 series and C class was another one, as was expanding capacity before seeing any results, using the Mondeo, and rushing it to market. The original S-type interior wasn't even Lincoln quality. And of course the current XJ looks so much like the last one that they could've just refreshed the old car again, and saved themselves buckets of cash. I agree that they have a very tough road ahead. If the XF and the new XJ fail in the market, its all over. There's plenty of "pace and grace" at the Maserati dealership.
That's good...the XKR is the best of the Jag model lineup at this point... Although the style-dated all-aluminum XJ is better than many would give it credit.
But, what sells? Basically, not much of anything, lackluster across the board.
If the XKR isn't selling briskly... Then it's already curtains for Jaguar. The XF is no savior, and given the early info on the next XJ, consider what the near impossible accomplishment that must be expected of those next Jags, over and above what isn't really happening for the XK.
Using just a few words to describe the story of Jaguar = Glorious beginning, Tragic ending.
TagMan
Did I mention the M3?
Anyway, I would buy that car, hood bump regardless. It still looks stunning.
Also, nobody is making a rule that the factory tuner super sedans are supposed to be "wolfs in sheeps' skins" just because the Germans do so. Why can't Lexus creates its own style?
Well, they did, and it doesn't work. The Teutonic philosophy is tried and true... using subtle, elegant, integrated styling cues is what attracts buyers. People who buy AMGs, Ms and S/RS's don't want to be noticed. They (we) love the Q-ship appeal. And yes, I know, my car is probably the least-noticeable Audi S car created in the twenty-first century. And I like it that way!
why does Lexus have to make a 3-series, why can't they just make a Lexus IS?
They didn't make a 3 Series, they made an IS. And I love the IS350. It's an excellent car and it looks the part. But the IS-F? It's just too much! It will look good in black, because black will hide the awkward bits. But I like colors.
As for the wolf in the sheep's skin, do you honestly think that's the case with the new C63 AMG. I think MB is saying "let subtle be damned" this time around.
Compare the C63 AMG to a C350 Sport.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
And yes, I have always lusted after an A8 4.2TDI. It's just as fast as a normal 4.2, with 30MPG. Such an excellent car.
I am still terribly conflicted. It's down to BMWs and Audis for me, and I'll probably start test driving in the spring. But the RS6 won't be here by then!
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
How so? Because they like the RS4? Does that make it unfair?
We have been talking about RS4 vs. IS-F, and beyond Edmunds, the two have not been compared.
As matter of fact they stated that this car is actually a better drive on the track than real road conditions.
Exactly, and this is their problem.
The Germans have mastered the art of balance. The BMW M3, Audi RS4 and Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG can all be taken to an enthusiastic track meet without breaking a sweat. And then, two hours later they can take you and your wife out to dinner and the theater. These vehicles offer uncompromising handling as well as perfectly-damped suspensions.
Lexus can either do one or the other, but not both. The GS450h, for example, is a wonderful car to own every day. While it doesn't offer much in terms of emotional appeal, it is loaded to the gills with luxury features and would be very forgiving after a hard day's work. On the other hand, you would be laughed at if you took it to a track.
Conversely, the IS-F is an impressive track performer. It can give the M3 or RS4 a run for their money. But then you drive it home, and realize that the suspension is super-harsh and it's not fun to have around town. It is still a compromise.
The über three don't know the definition of the word "compromise."
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
The C63 easily outshines the IS-F.
TM
How about that? A feather in the General's cap!
TM
If only MT "OTY" actually meant anything. The CTS making 10-best is actually an accomplishment. If you hand MT enough money, they'll give you OTY.
Palm greasing?... That's a big accusation, and it's another matter altogether, and I wouldn't know how anyone could ever really prove it. Maybe there are the usual reasons to be suspicious, but that's probably as far as it could ever get.
Sure, the almighty dollar can sometimes be quite "influencial"... but is that actually known to be the case with MT?
TagMan
What amazes me when I deal with customer services from India is that every person I talk to there is named either Bill, George, Kate or Sally? One of them was named Sally Smith and she spoke with a deep Indian Gujarati accent :surprise:
The Runzheimer study balanced out those costs against a 36-month/60,000-mile ownership cycle.
A Cadillac STS was number one with $19, 535 Annual Costs
The Lexus LS460 was second place with $19,372 Annual Costs
I have not a clue if the MB S550 or BMW 750 was included in the survey. All I know is that many of the top notch Italian Exotics were not included in this survey.
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I'm not so sure about that. Some of the questionable examples: 2007 Toyota Camry, 2002 Ford Thunderbird, 2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser, 1997 Chevrolet Malibu, 1996 Dodge Caravan, 1995 Chrysler Cirrus, 1989 Ford Thunderbird SC, 1981 Chrysler K Cars, Dodge Aries / Plymouth Reliant, 1980 Chevrolet Citation, 1978 Chrysler, Dodge Omni / Plymouth Horizon. Pretty much everything they picked from the early '70s into the late '80s was junk.
I just remember reading in Autoextremist that Peter, as a former GM ad guy, knew of several instances of car companies "purchasing" OTY awards. He mentioned it when the MB GL won truck of the year, and MT described it as "Mercedes' best SUV". His opinion was that MT was up to their old tricks, that Mercedes handed them a big pile of cash, and in exchange the GL won OTY.
Anyway, I have the latest MT sitting right in front of me, and have given the COTY article a thorough once-over.
With the exception of the CTS, these are the cars that had the most glowing write-ups, in relative order:
1. Audi S5 - best acceleration and best handling of the bunch, by a long shot. They loved the styling and the interior. Why wasn't it picked? Not significant enough.
2. Chevy Malibu - dramatically improved. Delivers on GM's promises, unlike the last-gen. Why wasn't it picked? Um, I'm not quite sure.
3. Mitsubishi Lancer - great performance out of the 152hp four-banger. Sharp styling, competitive handling and an overall striking improvement over the last-gen are also strong points. Why wasn't it picked? Still not there in terms of interior quality or significance.
...And the ones that, well, didn't:
1. Ford Focus - crappy interior, tacky styling and a ghastly powertrain. The only thing they liked was the Sync system... which, not coincidentally, is the only selling point in Ford's ads.
2. Volvo C30 - while stylish and well-built, it offers little in the way of entertainment. Disappointing.
3 (tie). Dodge Avenger - the performance was alright, but they didn't like the nasty interior.
3 (tie). Subaru WRX - as most have said, the maturity dulls the fun of the last-gen.
One thing that profoundly confused me was how they rated the Chrysler T&C's interior at five stars... while the Dodge Caravan got two stars and the Audi TT, four (S5 got five). The only thing they mentioned about the Chrysler's interior was the lighting, but perhaps they were referring to the versatility? But isn't this the same as in the Caravan? Confused... and thinking of writing them about it.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
I don't know, LG. Something's missing there. And it just seems too risky for Motor Trend to conduct itself that way... With so much on the line.
TagMan
I don't remember exactly what he said in his column, just that at least in its past, MT used to engage in the practice, and that the GL winning SUV OTY sounded to him like another OTY for sale. Regardless, I generally don't think MT has much credibility to begin with, and they seem to be in total denial about the fact that their magazine is essentially a dinosaur. In their "OMGWRXLOL" article, they seemed to think that nobody had seen the car until MT broke with their "exclusive pictures". Yeah, right. They're generally better than Automobile, but not by much.
The Consumers Report I avoid like the plague and after reading some of the views of some CR readers I feel blessed for my avoidance.
However, when I posted the COTY winner on the forum, you responded with more feedback than just the sub-par quality of MT. Essentially, you strongly suggested that the COTY award was for sale.
That's diffferent than mentioning that you view their content as being of lesser quality than the content in Car & Driver and some others.
So... just to be totally clear, I agree with you and Dewey about the content (although I still read it!), as it generally speaks for itself anyway... but I am not able to determine with any confidence that the COTY award can be bought with some major palm greasing, as you alleged.
TagMan
Note to Dewey: With regards to CR, you and the rest of the guys all know my opinion of THAT rag, as I make no secret about it... CR sucks... IMveryHO.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
Exactly. I agree.
The "magazine X is bribed by company Y!" whining has gotten old. There is nothing to back any of it up. I just take these things at face value... it was Motor Trend's evaluation, and they picked their choices because they like them. What a concept!
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
Nobody really knows except for MT and the winners of the OTY awards, and obviously nobody is going to say anything. Ultimately my point is that while its great for Cadillac that they won an OTY award, I don't think MT OTY really means much of anything. Winning OTY doesn't change my opinion of the car one iota. The Accord or the BMW 3 series making 10-best year after year though makes me think, hey Honda and BMW must be on to something there.
CR is great for dishwashers, or vacuum cleaners. If there is a Vacuum Cleaner Enthusiast Monthly, I have absolutely no interest in reading it. Other than that...
Absolutely. I think Top Gear is the best of the (admittedly all excellent) British automags, in addition to being the best show on TV. Clarkson's Times Online reviews also usually amusing, and you can read those for free.
Jeremy Clarkson's Times Online page
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I agree it doesn't change my mind about the car either, as you and I know better. As far as it not meaning "much of anything", I can't agree... as it does give the COTY winner some increased publicity as well as the rights to advertise itself as the COTY winner for that particular model year... not exactly worthless, from an ad man's perspective.
CR is great for dishwashers, or vacuum cleaners. If there is a Vacuum Cleaner Enthusiast Monthly, I have absolutely no interest in reading it.
LOL. Even when it comes to consumer products, the truth is that CR frequently omits many other models, sometimes the better models, and sometimes the newest ones. CR's opinion of what is best, therefore, is only chosen from those they actually review... which means that the best use for CR might be something on the order of starting a campfire, and even then, a little newspaper would be better.
TagMan
TM
Yes, how ridiculous is it that they just rated the porsche boxster, a well known ladies' car, as the top roadster? That alone would relegate CR to the outhouse!!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Right, which is exactly why a car company might be interested in buying the award. Not that I'm saying that actually happens
I want to be Jeremy Clarkson. What a dream job. He is a reviewer, of course, but he also has tremendous freedom in his writing, he can make fun of whomever he wants, and he makes millions each year doing so.
I can't really complain, though.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet