the one good thing about having a diesel car (especially our 1980 volvo diesel) it would stop tailgaters. If a driver got to close I would downshift and there would be a nice big cloud of smoke. It definately did not have pep. The turbo-diesel volvo and turbo-diesel mercedes were alot better
Great response. Sounds like Europeans have more reasonable standards. I would love to see GM, Toyota, etc. sell some diesel vehicles in the US.
Ethanol can't offer better mpg, and price of ethanol is going to go up as more and more start using ethanol. Hybrids are good options if you drive a lot on local roads. I don't think hybrids help when you are going at 70 mph on interstates. Bye the way, I also keep hearing about CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) as being one of the options --- do any of you know if CNG can help?
It has nothing to do with the fuel. A turbo is a device added to an engine of any kind to boost pressure and give more power. A turbo diesel engine is the most common sold today.
that a turbo-Diesel would give you the power when you need it, along with increased fuel consumption if you're a heavy-footed driver. But if you drive it fairly gently, I imagine that fuel economy would still be close to an equivalent non-turbo Diesel?
I've never owned a Diesel, but did have a turbo...a 1988 LeBaron turbo coupe. That sucker was pretty economical for the time, if you didn't drive it too hard. It wasn't too hard to get into the lower 30's on the highway, which was especially commendable since that car only had a 3-speed automatic...no overdrive.
Good info. Jetta and Passat turbodiesel models will now join Camry Hybrid in my shopping list. In a year or two, I will trade in my Protege for a bigger car. I want a bigger car and not a thirstier car. Unfortunately, the Volkswagens are more expensive. I wish Chevy made a diesel version of Impala.
In diesels, turbo chargers increase efficiency. A diesel does not throttle air, only fuel. The turbo uses waste heat (energy) from the exhaust to increase the charge of air in the cylinders. More air means greater increase in pressure from burning the same amount of fuel at lower peak temperatures, therefore losing less energy to the cooling system.
Turbos on gas engines increase fuel and air, so economy suffers, but power increases.
I would go get a great deal on a new truck (probably a 5.7L Tundra) Hopefully $3.00+ gas prices will be enough to decrease demand and trigger big rebates this summer. I don't drive that much, I clocked 6400 miles April-April in my tC, and I don't see my mileage increasing anytime soon.
I am one of those 24 year olds trying to make it today. Is it unusual for me to contribute to my 401k at 24? I currently put 4% of my salary in it, and it is equally matched by my company, in addition all profit sharing goes into my 401k by my choice (and I keep the bonuses for myself) When I pay off Student loans and CC's I plan to increase my contribution to 10% or more. But right now every $100 that I see come out of my paycheck, $240 goes into my 401k when you take into account matching funds and tax benefits. If other 24 year olds aren't doing something simular, they need to start.
Turbos on gas engines increase fuel and air, so economy suffers
But won't more fuel also need more air ?
A diesel does not throttle air, only fuel, you also wrote.
On the inlet side I believe the objective of both systems is to preserve the same air/fuel ratio whatever the mechanics of the throttling process.
For me, the most interesting part of a turbo is the exhaust side. It's my understanding that the turbo acts more as an expansion device than a constriction on the exit flow of exhaust gases. The gases cool as they expand through the blades of the turbo in much the same manner as they do in a gas turbine. This loss of heat re-appears as increased torque on the turbo shaft. Heat has therefore been turned into energy and you should expect an overall rise in thermal efficiency.
Some people, but no-one here of course, confuse its operation with a similar device, the supercharger that also forces air into the cylinders. This device is generally regarded as a parasitic element since it derives its power either directly from the engine shaft or indirectly via the electrical system of the engine. This particular device will lower thermal efficiency. Until recently GM was still fitting superchargers to some of their models (Sunfire) to compete with the more advanced engines of the Asian competition.
Yes, getting a good deal is another option!!!!!!!!! Last summer gas prices were over $3 (in upstate NY). As a result, you could get $3000 rebate on Pilot and $5000 on TrailBlazer (in upstate NY) !!!!!!!!! That rebate alone can compensate for higher gas costs. But I would still prefer to look for other options such as diesels or hybrids.
announced that their new 2.2L diesel will go into the next Accord, probably not at launch of the new model this fall, but next year.
I am sure they will make liberal use of it for other models that don't already have hybrid variants.
Toyota's new diesel is supposed to be here by 2009 (not that far away now, as it is referring to model year '09), but that's less certain.
Jeep will begin using the Mercedes diesel in the GC, and who knows, if they stay a part of the Daimler Benz kingdom, maybe it will make it into other Jeeps as well.
GM is hard at work on their ney hybrids, with the Volt hopefully only a few years out, and the only ones I don't know diesel plans for are Ford and Nissan. Heck, even Subaru has shown its new diesel engine, which will hit new models soon.
And if you like compressed natural gas, Honda will sell you a CNG Civic right now, for big fuel cost savings! (with limited refueling options I would imagine - haven't checked into that).
There ARE some gas-saving alternatives out there right now if you are at the point of buying a new vehicle. Among small cars, there are even a few good ones, very thrifty, running straight gas.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Have you had any preliminary discussions with clients or visitors about the proposed diesel Ody and other models next year? What does Mrs Soccer Mom think about driving a diesel rather than a gasser?
My own veiw is that although VW has a more established presence here in diesels that it suffers from an overall perception of reliability whereas Honda benefits from that perception. Honda may be the one to make diesels work in the mainstream US market but it will take a lot of education.
Air fuel ratio is not maintained in a diesel, the combustion system is a stratified charge process. Modern diesels are mostly direct injection, so the fuel spray is injected into the cylinder after compression has heated a full charge of air. The fuel ignites on contact with the air, and the flame front spreads until the fuel is burned. Unneeded oxygen is expelled with other exhaust gases. During combustion the mixture is, first very rich near the injector, then leans out until it is over-lean at the end of the process.
Black smoke results when more fuel is injected than there is air to fully burn, and combustion is incomplete.
Older diesels, and some large engines still use a "pre-cup" or pre-combustion chamber, this is a small chamber off the main combustion chamber. Compression pushes some of the air charge in, and the fuel is injected there. The result is a very rich mixture that ignites easily, and the flame front shoots out into the cylinder where additional air burns most of the fuel. Pre-cup engines are more difficult to tune for pollution standards,
Chevy can do it too. I owned Chevys before and I can tell from experience. Only problem with Chevy is that the management is too focused on big vehicles. Honda, on the other hand, has done a fine job with smaller cars and smaller SUVs.
I am glad to know that economical diesel vehicles will soon be here. I wish the gas stations now start selling diesel. Diesel won't cure all problems, but having any option at this point is better than not having any.
I can't understand why the price continues to go up? When a barrel is costing $61.74 to import and normally contains 42 gallons. I do not think that it cost 200% or more to refine the oil.
I'm really getting sick of al the people that are and have been paying less than $3.00 a gallon crying and complaining. They don't seem to understand that California has been paying anywhere from $3.30 to $3.50 for 87 Octane for the past 2 months. And if you need to use 91 Octane, well you might be lucky to get it for $3.40 in some places if you search for it.
Back in January when the prices really started going up I posted messages on some ideas I had to make the oil companies listen to the consumers. No one seemed to care and nobody came up with any other solutions. Crying and complaining about it does not get anything done. We have to put into action our complaints/worries and turn the stress level around.
I think that once the National average hits $3.50 a gallon then maybe you all might listen and start doing something other than complaining about it and doing nothing.
I know that for a fact that I do not drive over 55mph now even with the maximum speed limit still set at 70mph. Sorry if this makes anyone up set. I do stay in the slow lane. I have been passed by 18-Wheelers and vehicles towing trailers. They are not legally supposed to go over 55mph. I get about 2 to 3 more mpg doing 55 mph over 70mph. So anything that I can do to save I will do, at least until the price we pay at the pump for fuel goes back down to a reasonable fair market value.
Think about this, what do you think or believe the price was in the 90 ties for a gallon of fuel? Probably about $2.00 less a gallon than it is now. Ok, so what do you think the price was for a barrel of oil? Not much less than it is now figuratively speaking.
"Think about this, what do you think or believe the price was in the 90 ties for a gallon of fuel? Probably about $2.00 less a gallon than it is now. Ok, so what do you think the price was for a barrel of oil? Not much less than it is now figuratively speaking."
If you go to gasbuddy.com, you can generate graphs indicating the national average price of regular compared to the price of a barrel of crude. You can go back and graph 6 years worth of data.
If you do a comparison you'll find that, if anything, the increase in the price of crude has EXCEEDED the price of unleaded.
For instance, the national average price of unleaded was remarkably consistent between May and Sept of '01 at right around $1.40/gallon (almost exactly half of the current $2.81/gallon). The cost of crude? In that same period it varied between around $23-$26/barrel (a little more than 1/3 of the current price).
Meaning that the cost of unleaded has DOUBLED while the cost of crude has nearly TRIPLED.
When gas fluctuates as much as a buck in 3 months, folks forget what it was. As soon as the prices drop down a bit the sale of SUVs and trucks will increase and the little cars will be sitting on the lots.
PS Not many people really want to drive a little car. Take the best selling Camry. It is bigger than our LS400 which was a big car in 1990.
No problem, gas prices fall, SUV & PU sales soar. It has happened the last 3 years. It happened this winter. GM truck sales are ahead of last year. GM alone sold as many full sized trucks as Accord and Camry combined, so far this year. One of the best cars for economy the Civic is not selling well at all. It will probably be better now that the gas prices are high. It is the buyers knee jerk reaction to higher gas prices. Not smart money at all. If you think you want a small economy car buy when the price of gas is cheap. Now is the time to get a good buy on an SUV or PU truck. With the current incentives you can get enough money back to pay your gas bill for several years.
Not really. "Recover slightly" is more like it. Folks are getting used to the notion that gas prices are not going back where they were and they could go up much more. Not that long ago, LTVs were outselling cars and it looked like an unstoppable trend. Now it looks like the reverse.
Folks are slowly coming to their senses. Well, most
good to hear from you sailor. I miss the SUV thread. Times are a changing.
I think you would agree that buying an economy car when gas prices are high is not smart. I know you rarely consider the purchase of an SUV or PU smart.
No, a small car has a premium attached when gas prices are high. If you wait for the gas price to come down, you get a better deal on that econo-box. The opposite is true of PU trucks.
Small car has a premium attached when gas prices are high?
What premium?
You mean dealers mark them up?
Only lying, cheating dealers would do that. Not a normal, honest businessman.
But even if there is a markup, it is wiped out by gas savings.
Markdowns on trucks and SUVs are not "really" markdowns because it does nothing to improve the resale value of the truck or SUV by having a lower new sale price. The second you drive it off the lot the value of a truck you bought for $15000 with a dealer markdown will have the same value of a truck bought at $18000, and your gas prices will be the same (HIGH) forever for both trucks. So although you might have save 3K upfront, you are cursed to forever drag that 12-18 MPG anchor around.
From this point forward, trucks and SUVs are always going to suffer in the resale market (excluding specialty vehicles such as hybrids and diesels) because everyone knows that the days of cheap gas are gone for good.
Well-built small cars and high-mileage hybrids insulate you against higher future gas prices and normally hold their value well - Civic, Corolla, Prius, etc.
Are you trying to tell me that cars like the Prius were not marked up by dealers?
My way of buying cars and yourself is different. I have not paid MSRP for a vehicle since 1964. I will NEVER pay MSRP. Anything over invoice is money down the toilet. So we start at invoice and work down from there. It is much easier with a big rig when gas is expensive. Much easier with an economy car when gas is cheaper. The only reason the Prius are going under invoice today is the fact that they over built and have a big inventory to dump. Quick before the battery dies on the lot
Remember a curse to you may be a blessing to someone else. I have NO interest in any car on the road today. Well maybe a Carrera. I will only buy PU trucks and SUVs. At this point in time I doubt that I will ever buy another new vehicle. Just too much loss driving off the lot.
As far as cheap gas being gone for good. There were several people saying that last year at this same time. May 9th 2006 I paid $3.35 per gallon. By the end of the Summer many places in the country had gas under 2 bucks.
I bought my truck 6/30/2005. I have driven 9130 miles, used 609.69 gallons of gas. That is just about 15 MPG. Nothing to brag about for sure. The average price per gallon $2.74 for a total gas bill for over 21 months of driving, $1670. How many gallons did you burn over the last 21 months in your hybrids?
...is that the time to buy an item (be it small, fuel efficient cars or kumquats) is NOT when the demand for that item is high.
The time to buy an item is when the demand is LOW. When it's a 'buyers market' (ie. demand low, supply high), you have a better opportunity to get a good deal.
Conversely, the time to buy an item is NOT when demand outstrips supply. Because then you are dealing with the desires of all the other lemmings and the seller (again, be it the seller of fuel efficient cars or kumquats) has the upper hand.
Good for you for not paying MSRP. But it's just a number. If no one ever paid MSRP, cars would be more expensive for everyone.
Sure the Prius was marked up. It was a revolutionary vehicle in high demand and low supply. That will happen to any car in that situation.
I know you always think "cheap gas is not gone" but my definition is "USA average price below $2.00" and IMHO that will NEVER again be seen. There will be pockets of places with below $2, but not an across-America average.
As far as gallons burned in my two hybrids, I have those in a spreadsheet. Here they be:
July 2005 through June 2006 in my HCH: 247 gallons June 2006 through today in my TCH: 353 gallons* Total gallons used: 600
*(that TCH number includes a 2800 mile trip to Texas and a 2600 mile trp to Texas and a 1500 mile trip to California)
You've driven 10K miles in two years? Well, no WONDER you don't worry about gas prices! ;-)
If I didn't drive so darn much, I wouldn't be as attentive to fuel economy as I am. The "average" driver is about halfway between you and me. For them, the difference between my car and most trucks, SUVs, and large cars would be about $1125/year. Almost $100/month, which for most working people would be worthy of consideration, and that is just with gas at $3/gallon, which seems like it will be the new price FLOOR here in California, if not this year then next for sure. Last time I paid less than $3/gallon was early January.
At $4/gallon, those savings rise to $1500/year for the driver doing 15K miles per year, which is $125/month. I would pay attention to those kind of figures when it came time to buy a new car, but in my case it is more like $200/month, so I am DEFINITELY paying attention. I expect that $4/gallon spikes are not far off in our future, and will probably occur this summer/fall at least once.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
same time period for my focus zts, approximately 19000 miles, 630 gallons. except for one 250 mile round trip to boston(used 1/2 a tank), all local commuting miles. i do have another vehicle i use for long trips with 4-5 people.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I think that what gagrice is saying...is that the time to buy an item...is NOT when the demand for that item is high.
Right, I understand his point now. But the obvious fallacy of this being the "right time" economically is when the demand is high.....because the running costs are low. Buying a less-in-demand vehicle with higher running costs is hardly a no-brainer. One must weigh the higher "premium" against the lower running costs. If a vehicle saves $20,000 in running costs over 8 years then a "premium" of $2000 sounds like a bargain.
Those numbers are not unreasonable.
Averaging 12k/year over 8 years is 96k miles. So.....
anyone who drives a 10 mpg vehicle who can transparently change to another with a 30 mpg vehicle is stupid, if gas mileage is the most important factor. as opposed to amenities.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I'm closing in on 57K and 3 1/2 yrs of driving the most practical car of our times. Gas prices have eased occasionaly but as of late they're on the rise at over 3 bucks a gal. Since I've been averaging well over 17K a yr. I have to say the '04 Prius has saved me in excess of $17,000 and with no problems. In six more months I'll have saved well over 21 grand. That's more than the cost of the car brand new. But if you want a V8 SUV there's plenty out there getting 8-10 mpgs and they're going dirt cheap.
You are going to have to explain how going to another car from whatever you were driving saved $17,000 in 3.5 years. Did you just trade your previous car straight across for this gas sipper you are now driving?
my sister bought a prius and said basically the same thing. trading in her 3 year old caravan. she said her husband(my bil) had a spreadsheet that backed it up. i said 'send it to me and i will find the mistake'. i never got it. prius is a fuel efficient vehicle, but there are a lot of variables.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Canada has higher gasoline taxes than we do. Tax is the primary difference between the gas prices in the US, Canada, Europe, and most of the rest of the developed world.
there used to be 2 euro for every dollar. are the europeans paying any more than they have been, or is it just a relative comparison? i don't really know.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Comments
Ethanol can't offer better mpg, and price of ethanol is going to go up as more and more start using ethanol. Hybrids are good options if you drive a lot on local roads. I don't think hybrids help when you are going at 70 mph on interstates. Bye the way, I also keep hearing about CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) as being one of the options --- do any of you know if CNG can help?
I've never owned a Diesel, but did have a turbo...a 1988 LeBaron turbo coupe. That sucker was pretty economical for the time, if you didn't drive it too hard. It wasn't too hard to get into the lower 30's on the highway, which was especially commendable since that car only had a 3-speed automatic...no overdrive.
Turbos on gas engines increase fuel and air, so economy suffers, but power increases.
Harry
I am one of those 24 year olds trying to make it today. Is it unusual for me to contribute to my 401k at 24? I currently put 4% of my salary in it, and it is equally matched by my company, in addition all profit sharing goes into my 401k by my choice (and I keep the bonuses for myself) When I pay off Student loans and CC's I plan to increase my contribution to 10% or more. But right now every $100 that I see come out of my paycheck, $240 goes into my 401k when you take into account matching funds and tax benefits. If other 24 year olds aren't doing something simular, they need to start.
But won't more fuel also need more air ?
A diesel does not throttle air, only fuel, you also wrote.
On the inlet side I believe the objective of both systems is to preserve the same air/fuel ratio whatever the mechanics of the throttling process.
For me, the most interesting part of a turbo is the exhaust side.
It's my understanding that the turbo acts more as an expansion device than a constriction on the exit flow of exhaust gases. The gases cool as they expand through the blades of the turbo in much the same manner as they do in a gas turbine. This loss of heat re-appears as increased torque on the turbo shaft. Heat has therefore been turned into energy and you should expect an overall rise in thermal efficiency.
Some people, but no-one here of course, confuse its operation with a similar device, the supercharger that also forces air into the cylinders. This device is generally regarded as a parasitic element since it derives its power either directly from the engine shaft or indirectly via the electrical system of the engine. This particular device will lower thermal efficiency. Until recently GM was still fitting superchargers to some of their models (Sunfire) to compete with the more advanced engines of the Asian competition.
T2
I am sure they will make liberal use of it for other models that don't already have hybrid variants.
Toyota's new diesel is supposed to be here by 2009 (not that far away now, as it is referring to model year '09), but that's less certain.
Jeep will begin using the Mercedes diesel in the GC, and who knows, if they stay a part of the Daimler Benz kingdom, maybe it will make it into other Jeeps as well.
GM is hard at work on their ney hybrids, with the Volt hopefully only a few years out, and the only ones I don't know diesel plans for are Ford and Nissan. Heck, even Subaru has shown its new diesel engine, which will hit new models soon.
And if you like compressed natural gas, Honda will sell you a CNG Civic right now, for big fuel cost savings! (with limited refueling options I would imagine - haven't checked into that).
There ARE some gas-saving alternatives out there right now if you are at the point of buying a new vehicle. Among small cars, there are even a few good ones, very thrifty, running straight gas.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Have you had any preliminary discussions with clients or visitors about the proposed diesel Ody and other models next year? What does Mrs Soccer Mom think about driving a diesel rather than a gasser?
My own veiw is that although VW has a more established presence here in diesels that it suffers from an overall perception of reliability whereas Honda benefits from that perception. Honda may be the one to make diesels work in the mainstream US market but it will take a lot of education.
What from the Honda viewpoint?
Black smoke results when more fuel is injected than there is air to fully burn, and combustion is incomplete.
Older diesels, and some large engines still use a "pre-cup" or pre-combustion chamber, this is a small chamber off the main combustion chamber. Compression pushes some of the air charge in, and the fuel is injected there. The result is a very rich mixture that ignites easily, and the flame front shoots out into the cylinder where additional air burns most of the fuel. Pre-cup engines are more difficult to tune for pollution standards,
Harry
I guess I have a bad taste in my mouth because of the diesel disasters back in the 70's.
If anybody can do it right, it will be Honda.
I am glad to know that economical diesel vehicles will soon be here. I wish the gas stations now start selling diesel. Diesel won't cure all problems, but having any option at this point is better than not having any.
I got rid of my '04 3.7L exactly for this reason. I just wish I could find diesel like I can gas! (On every corner...)
DIESEL STINKS
I'm really getting sick of al the people that are and have been paying less than $3.00 a gallon crying and complaining. They don't seem to understand that California has been paying anywhere from $3.30 to $3.50 for 87 Octane for the past 2 months. And if you need to use 91 Octane, well you might be lucky to get it for $3.40 in some places if you search for it.
Back in January when the prices really started going up I posted messages on some ideas I had to make the oil companies listen to the consumers. No one seemed to care and nobody came up with any other solutions. Crying and complaining about it does not get anything done. We have to put into action our complaints/worries and turn the stress level around.
I think that once the National average hits $3.50 a gallon then maybe you all might listen and start doing something other than complaining about it and doing nothing.
I know that for a fact that I do not drive over 55mph now even with the maximum speed limit still set at 70mph. Sorry if this makes anyone up set. I do stay in the slow lane. I have been passed by 18-Wheelers and vehicles towing trailers. They are not legally supposed to go over 55mph. I get about 2 to 3 more mpg doing 55 mph over 70mph. So anything that I can do to save I will do, at least until the price we pay at the pump for fuel goes back down to a reasonable fair market value.
Think about this, what do you think or believe the price was in the 90 ties for a gallon of fuel? Probably about $2.00 less a gallon than it is now. Ok, so what do you think the price was for a barrel of oil? Not much less than it is now figuratively speaking.
So who is getting ripped off? :lemon:
WE ALL OUR.
Gas Prices: How Much Do They Matter? (Carmudgeon)
Understanding Oil Prices
"Think about this, what do you think or believe the price was in the 90 ties for a gallon of fuel? Probably about $2.00 less a gallon than it is now. Ok, so what do you think the price was for a barrel of oil? Not much less than it is now figuratively speaking."
If you go to gasbuddy.com, you can generate graphs indicating the national average price of regular compared to the price of a barrel of crude. You can go back and graph 6 years worth of data.
http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx?time=24
If you do a comparison you'll find that, if anything, the increase in the price of crude has EXCEEDED the price of unleaded.
For instance, the national average price of unleaded was remarkably consistent between May and Sept of '01 at right around $1.40/gallon (almost exactly half of the current $2.81/gallon). The cost of crude? In that same period it varied between around $23-$26/barrel (a little more than 1/3 of the current price).
Meaning that the cost of unleaded has DOUBLED while the cost of crude has nearly TRIPLED.
I bet we will see it slide further in the next two years, as a direct result of the gas prices.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
PS
Not many people really want to drive a little car. Take the best selling Camry. It is bigger than our LS400 which was a big car in 1990.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Not really. "Recover slightly" is more like it. Folks are getting used to the notion that gas prices are not going back where they were and they could go up much more. Not that long ago, LTVs were outselling cars and it looked like an unstoppable trend. Now it looks like the reverse.
Folks are slowly coming to their senses. Well, most
I think you would agree that buying an economy car when gas prices are high is not smart. I know you rarely consider the purchase of an SUV or PU smart.
I think you would agree that buying an economy car when gas prices are high is not smart.
Not following....did you mean "buying a truck"?
I know you rarely consider the purchase of an SUV or PU smart.
Only when it's needed, but let's not go there
Small car has a premium attached when gas prices are high?
What premium?
You mean dealers mark them up?
Only lying, cheating dealers would do that. Not a normal, honest businessman.
But even if there is a markup, it is wiped out by gas savings.
Markdowns on trucks and SUVs are not "really" markdowns because it does nothing to improve the resale value of the truck or SUV by having a lower new sale price. The second you drive it off the lot the value of a truck you bought for $15000 with a dealer markdown will have the same value of a truck bought at $18000, and your gas prices will be the same (HIGH) forever for both trucks. So although you might have save 3K upfront, you are cursed to forever drag that 12-18 MPG anchor around.
From this point forward, trucks and SUVs are always going to suffer in the resale market (excluding specialty vehicles such as hybrids and diesels) because everyone knows that the days of cheap gas are gone for good.
Well-built small cars and high-mileage hybrids insulate you against higher future gas prices and normally hold their value well - Civic, Corolla, Prius, etc.
My way of buying cars and yourself is different. I have not paid MSRP for a vehicle since 1964. I will NEVER pay MSRP. Anything over invoice is money down the toilet. So we start at invoice and work down from there. It is much easier with a big rig when gas is expensive. Much easier with an economy car when gas is cheaper. The only reason the Prius are going under invoice today is the fact that they over built and have a big inventory to dump. Quick before the battery dies on the lot
Remember a curse to you may be a blessing to someone else. I have NO interest in any car on the road today. Well maybe a Carrera. I will only buy PU trucks and SUVs. At this point in time I doubt that I will ever buy another new vehicle. Just too much loss driving off the lot.
As far as cheap gas being gone for good. There were several people saying that last year at this same time. May 9th 2006 I paid $3.35 per gallon. By the end of the Summer many places in the country had gas under 2 bucks.
I bought my truck 6/30/2005. I have driven 9130 miles, used 609.69 gallons of gas. That is just about 15 MPG. Nothing to brag about for sure. The average price per gallon $2.74 for a total gas bill for over 21 months of driving, $1670. How many gallons did you burn over the last 21 months in your hybrids?
The time to buy an item is when the demand is LOW. When it's a 'buyers market' (ie. demand low, supply high), you have a better opportunity to get a good deal.
Conversely, the time to buy an item is NOT when demand outstrips supply. Because then you are dealing with the desires of all the other lemmings and the seller (again, be it the seller of fuel efficient cars or kumquats) has the upper hand.
I don't know why this concept is so foreign......
Good luck trying to buy something that's hot.
You can find invoice or below dealers using the net and yes even on hot cars. I've looked into it in the past.
Rocky
Sure the Prius was marked up. It was a revolutionary vehicle in high demand and low supply. That will happen to any car in that situation.
I know you always think "cheap gas is not gone" but my definition is "USA average price below $2.00" and IMHO that will NEVER again be seen. There will be pockets of places with below $2, but not an across-America average.
As far as gallons burned in my two hybrids, I have those in a spreadsheet. Here they be:
July 2005 through June 2006 in my HCH: 247 gallons
June 2006 through today in my TCH: 353 gallons*
Total gallons used: 600
*(that TCH number includes a 2800 mile trip to Texas and a 2600 mile trp to Texas and a 1500 mile trip to California)
If I didn't drive so darn much, I wouldn't be as attentive to fuel economy as I am. The "average" driver is about halfway between you and me. For them, the difference between my car and most trucks, SUVs, and large cars would be about $1125/year. Almost $100/month, which for most working people would be worthy of consideration, and that is just with gas at $3/gallon, which seems like it will be the new price FLOOR here in California, if not this year then next for sure. Last time I paid less than $3/gallon was early January.
At $4/gallon, those savings rise to $1500/year for the driver doing 15K miles per year, which is $125/month. I would pay attention to those kind of figures when it came time to buy a new car, but in my case it is more like $200/month, so I am DEFINITELY paying attention. I expect that $4/gallon spikes are not far off in our future, and will probably occur this summer/fall at least once.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
i do have another vehicle i use for long trips with 4-5 people.
Right, I understand his point now. But the obvious fallacy of this being the "right time" economically is when the demand is high.....because the running costs are low. Buying a less-in-demand vehicle with higher running costs is hardly a no-brainer. One must weigh the higher "premium" against the lower running costs. If a vehicle saves $20,000 in running costs over 8 years then a "premium" of $2000 sounds like a bargain.
Those numbers are not unreasonable.
Averaging 12k/year over 8 years is 96k miles. So.....
@$3/gal
10 mpg: gas cost=$28,800
30 mpg: $ 9,600
savings: $19,200
but....
@$4/gal
10 mpg: gas cost=$38,400
30 mpg: $12,800
savings: $25,600
Now, ya gotta do present/future value and all that, but that doesn't change the result too much.
IMO there are plenty of folks that drive 10 mpg vehicles that have no vehicular requirements that a 30 mpg vehicle would meet.
Non-vehicular requirements are another matter. I'll stop there :=)
prius is a fuel efficient vehicle, but there are a lot of variables.
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