"Fuel economy is measured under controlled conditions in a laboratory using a standardized test procedure specified by federal law. Manufacturers test their own vehicles—usually pre-production prototypes—and report the results to EPA. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of them through their own tests at the National Vehicles and Fuel Emissions Laboratory."
"Low weight and small engines. The small cars today are bloated with comfort and safety features, and overpowered?"
I LOVED that article on the new market for Geo Metros! I do think that lady was crazy for paying $7300 for a 13 year old Metro, but you can't argue with real-world mileage in the mid-50s.
I will add my voice to the growing chorus calling for lightweight, lower power, simple cars to return, with the great fuel economy they bring along. My car is rated almost totally five stars for crash ratings, built in 2002, weighs 2100 pounds. It was the last of a dying breed, but the everyday 41 mpg I get in it is a huge benefit in these days of way-high gas prices. When Toyota redesigned this car in 2006, the weight increased by 200 pounds (due mostly to increased features and a needless increase in size, NOT increased safety equipment) and fuel economy dropped. Way to go guys. But of course, they were just following an industry trend highlighted by this article.
gagrice: it seems that the premium for extracting a diesel-powered car from VW's hands is even more than the one to extract a hybrid from anyone else's hands, and the payback isn't as good compared to hybrids vs their non-hybrid counterparts. I have been following the hybrid v diesel debate closely, waiting for the day when a profusion of diesel passenger cars would be available in America again. Now that the day is drawing near, we find hybrids selling for discounts, and diesel priced 20% or more above regular unleaded gas. If things stay like this another year, diesels will have a hard time finding their way back into the market in any numbers I think (except for large SUVs and pick-ups, where they should have been the exclusive powertrain available all along, and where they are VERY tardy in arriving now).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Boy, this post really got my blood pressure up !!!
Maybe you should read my post again. I did not question the validity of the EPA test. Though real people get much better mileage than the EPA test indicates in the case of the VW diesels. The VW diesels get much higher mileage on the UK tests. Not that it makes much difference as your mileage may vary. Maybe you can answer this. Did the manufacturers go back and retest all their older models for the new EPA estimates. They were all downgraded WITHOUT testing any of them. It was just a formula that had NO basis in actual mileage for any given vehicle.
Diesel prices "jumped" ahead of gasoline prices for valid, market-based reasons.
If that is the case, which I would question. Why all through 2005 BP/ARCO sold ONLY ULSD in CA for the same or less than high sulfur diesel in my area? Why did it jump this year when ULSD was mandated in 2006 for CA? The cost shown to refine diesel only recently became higher than for RUG. Well after the ULSD mandate was in affect. Did we get new refineries? All questions those of US with an interest in diesel vehicles would like to know the answers to. I already know that CA taxes diesel higher than gas.
Why are West Coast diesel fuel prices higher and more variable than others?
Diesel prices on the West Coast, especially in California (CA), are relatively higher than other regions of the country, partly because of taxes, but mainly because of supply issues. The State of California assesses a combined State and local sales and use tax of 7.25% on top of the 24.4 cents/gallon Federal excise tax and an 18.0 cents/gallon State tax. Washington’s tax of 34 cents/gallon is one of the highest in the country. Besides taxes, West Coast retail prices are more variable than others because there are relatively few supply sources: 21 of the 36 refineries located in West Coast states are in CA. California refineries need to be running at near full capacity just to meet in-state demand. If more than one refinery in the region experiences operating difficulties at the same time, the diesel supply may become very tight and prices may spike. The West Coast’s substantial distance from Gulf Coast and foreign refineries is such that any unusual increase in demand or reduction in supply results in a large price response in the market before relief supplies can be delivered. The farther away the necessary relief supplies are, the higher and longer the price spike will be.
Absolutely they will. If people are willing to siphon gas (eww) then they're CERTAINLY going to use someone's charger when they're not looking
So you think that engineering some intelligence into a charging station is out of the question? For instance, once it is disconnected for even an instant this station will cease delivering electricity until another credit card is swiped. I can almost guarantee that is the way they will be designed if only for safety reasons.
But you bring up a good point regarding siphoning gas. Since gasoline is considerably more expensive than electricity anyone who leaves an ICE parked on the street is more vulnerable than the person charging his vehicle on the street.
As most of you know, I'm currently driving a Ford Taurus loaner from the collision shop repairing my RAV4. The gas tank cap on it doesn't have a lock. Last night I parked across from the location of my VVA chapter board meeting on a fairly busy street that also has a moderate amount of foot traffic. I had a little over 1/2 a tank of gas.
A bit over 2 hours later when I started up the car, the gas tank warning light came on and the gage read empty. Fortunately, I was able to make it to a nearby gas station.
At current New Jersey prices for regular (I fill up when taking my son to work east of Trenton) about $28-$30 worth was stolen. According to local news, this is happening with some frequency in this area.
Woah, angry larsb, take a deep breath. Diesel prices are as high as they are because that's pretty much what they can charge for it. Yes worldwide demand, and the weak dollar are causing prices to rise across the board, but the US refiners don't want to tell you the other reasons that the prices have gone up. For one, they are selling more of their limited diesel production to the world markets instead of keeping more in the states, therefore intentionally limiting supply here and driving up prices (aka more profit for them without doing a darn thing). Two, they haven't expanded capacity for diesel fuel much since the 80's, leaving their capacity at about 20% compared to gasoline. Three, using the excuse that they had to make the transition to low-sulfur fuel was an reason that could have been used last year, but organizations outside the refiners have said the costs with making the transition weren't as large as the refiners wanted us to believe, and should have been made up by now. Four, now that diesel prices are so high and people are used to it, what reasons do the refiners have to reduce the price to where the market should be? None...it's just like on the gasoline side of the house? When gas sat at 1.99 for so long, but then broke 2.00 bucks...was there a reason to go back and charge less? No people were used to paying over 2, so that's where they kept it, even though there was no reason anyone could come up with.
When it comes to oil, this is one of the few markets that we get screwed on for having free markets...
At that rate you could afford to hire someone at minimum wage to guard your car. I got a feeling it is going to get worse before it gets better. An exploding gas cap might solve the problem. Does auto insurance cover that? Worst places in San Diego are the theater parking lots. They know you will be gone for a couple hours.
you guys who think stealing someone's electrcity will prevent it from becoming a viable energy source for the automobile are not thinking out of the box.
There's all kinds of security measures that could ensure the ONLY you could use your electrical source. You could have passwords that need to be entered everytime it becomes disconnected.
I'm calm, I'm calm. Gary's post just hit a few spots that he and I have debated in the past, and for SOME SILLY REASON, I thought I had him convinced of the error of his ways. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Silly Me for thinking that !!!!!!!!!! ( Hard to know which one of us is more stubborn, but it's probably him, since he has had more years to perfect the art !!! LOL )
Anyway, I will react that way any time someone utters "conspiracy" or "price fixing" or "gouging" because I am a firm believer that the world oil/fuel markets develop without the undue influence of any one group who is trying to make a huge profit from the situation.
Prices are what they are because of the current geo-political climate and the infrastructure which is in place. That stuff cannot be changed overnight, and no one group can make a change and have things develop differently.
I guess one scenario that could make things interesting is if OPEC said they are stopping exports. Then all Hades would break loose !!!
Since the price in San Jose, Ca officially topped $4.00 for RUG I would like to add what I do differently.
I have the luxury of working close to home as a contractor. My client base has built over the years to let me work no further that 5 miles from home. I make far further runs to Home Depot. I can not justify driving 10 miles round trip for a $5.00 item - so quite often I buy more than I need and return things later. I also ride bikes with my kids to school at least once per week to get excersize, show other people it's doable and of course save gas, money, the environment......
There's all kinds of security measures that could ensure the ONLY you could use your electrical source.
Sure, just like hundreds of software engineers have put security features in Windows and Vista? Or thousands of SW engineers have made the Internet secure. It would be about 1-2 days before someone looks at these charger systems and figures out a way to bypass the security; it'll be another week or 2 before it is all over the Internet.
Or you'll just have vandals who do a range of things to them, from: disconnecting them, to pouring soda on them, jamming stuff in the slots, or throwing a rope around them and pulling them out of the ground.
I live in a pretty crime-free area, but have already lost 1 hood ornament this year. These outdoor public rechargers will be a prime target for teens and gangs. Lemko can probably even comment on how in his area, people go missing their registration tags as thieves snip that part of the plate away.
Me being the devious person I am, given that whatever security might go into effect once it's disconnected, I would thereby engineer a jaw-clamp type device that would simply act as a tap to the electrical line, and laugh at your security all the way to the bank. :shades:
I would thereby engineer a jaw-clamp type device that would simply act as a tap to the electrical line, and laugh at your security all the way to the bank.
These arguments against charging stations are so feeble as to be comical.
So you're going to tap into one of these stations, steal the electricity and laugh all the way to the bank. My guess is they will be delivering around $10 worth of electricity an hour. Yeah, that's a little above minimum wage but laughing all the way to the bank, I don't know about that. However it is a pretty sad that you'd be willing to break the law for this paltry amount.
I would thereby engineer a jaw-clamp type device that would simply act as a tap to the electrical line, and laugh at your security all the way to the bank.
You would do well in Mexico. I have a fellow that helps me from time to time. He lives on the outskirts of Tijuana. After waiting over a month for the electricity to be hooked up to their new houses, he and his neighbor climbed up the pole and tapped onto the lines. That was several years ago. The reason I know is I asked him how much electricity costs in Mexico and he got a big grin on his face and told me the story. It is very common down there for a contractor to just clip onto the power when building a new home. When we all have EVs it will look something like this in the Neighborhood.
CANTON -- The city of Canton is being overwhelmed by a literally growing problem -- property owners who won't use a lawnmower.
The city now cuts grass and weeds on more than 2,000 thousand privately-owned lots at a cost of a quarter million dollars a year.
Foreclosures are a big part of the problem. But most of the lots are owned by Canton residents.
Health Department officials are worried about creating hiding places for rats and breeding grounds for ticks.
Council is expected to pass a law Monday that could carry jail time for a second offense. Repeat offenders could face a $250 fine and 30 days in jail.
City leaders promise this law won't be used on senior or sickly property owners.
"This law is for that person that's healthy, alive and irresponsible," said Environmental Health Director Mark Adams.
Councilman Greg Hawk said, "We don't want to be in the lawnmowing businesses. We're looking for the repeat offender we're providing cheap lawn maintenance for."
I noticed that. Did not want to correct their obvious error. You did not expect the news media to be educated did you?
Here in SD county they send you a notice that the weeds around the perimeter must be cut. On our place they would bill $5000 to cut them. We would get it done for about $300 most years. You don't pay it is added to your tax bill with very high penalties. Evidently Canton needs some instruction on extracting money from the residents.
Well on a related note my old mower just died after being on life support for several years. So I bought a new one and remembering a previous discussion here about acres per gallon I casually mentioned that to the sales dude. His response was just a dazed look.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My old, old Snapper died last week too, but I usually borrow the neighbor's rider this time of year. After the "yard" dies out a push mower is handy but maybe I'll find a used one on Craigslist or try to put another engine on the otherwise good deck. I don't think an electric would work on my rough landscape nor do they make self propelled ones afaik, but I'd sure love to get away from the fumes and noise.
Gas popped to $3.79 here, with premium over the barrier at $4.01. Diesel is $4.65.
I read these posts with a mixture of amazement and quite frankly, sadness. People seem to think that there is some magic bullet out there that is going to lower gas prices back down to $1-$2-$3 or whatever so they can keep driving their Suburban.
The US uses almost 21 million barrels of oil a day, and produces about 7 million. Think about that. Our economy, our society, cannot exist without cheap petroleum from non-US sources. The supplies from friendly allies are diminishing rapidly. Our very way of life is being handed to people who hate us, billions of dollars at a time.
Ethanol has been exposed as a disaster already. Just open up drilling in ANWR, exploit oil shale, etc? This is all BS. If you look at the real numbers behind domestic alternatives, we have maybe 14 years of conventional oil at 21 million barrels a day. After that, we are screwed, Oil shale is a myth. There is neither the water nor the electricity in that area of the country to make a dent in our demand, even if a process can be developed that doesn't burn more energy than it provides. Brazil? The recent Brazilian announcements require technology that has never been used in production. Coal to oil? Sure, as long as we totally ignore the environmental implications and start building the dozens of nuke plants to power the process NOW.
The day OPEC and Russia get together and decide America needs to be rendered insignificant, they can do it without firing a single missile. The US today produces about the same amount of petroleum that it did in the mid-50's. Cut us off tomorrow, and our society is seized up within six months. It would make 1973 look like a minor disruption. So you trust 'market forces'? $4.00 a gallon gas? Try $16 a gallon. You laugh? Gas was under $1.00 ten years ago. Why do you think it will not be $16.00 ten years from now?
If we wait any longer to begin a 'moonshot' effort to get our energy situation under control, we might as well resign ourselves to third-world status and get it over with. The amount of petroleum we produce domestically would be barely sufficient for military, agriculture, manufacturing, mass transit, shipping and pharmaceuticals. There would be none leftover for your F350 Powersmoke. Sorry.
I agree with all your major points and I'm planning for just these types of situations but I do think that there are two significant factors unmentioned. Necessity and Greed.
Necessity. I do think fuel will spiral up and up and up and it will hurt us a lot. We then will use our considerable collective ingenuity to design new systems; new systems of working, new systems of living at home, new power systems and especially new fuel systems. I think celluosic ethanol is a key player in the future along with biodiesel from algae. These IMO will moderate the pain somewhat. Each can be made in our individual localities in all parts of the country, not just Iowa, so they should become a civic venture run by and for the local citizenry.
Greed. There's $Trillions to be made by the first one to market with a total solution to ameliorate the pain.
So you're going to tap into one of these stations, steal the electricity and laugh all the way to the bank. My guess is they will be delivering around $10 worth of electricity an hour. Yeah, that's a little above minimum wage but laughing all the way to the bank, I don't know about that. However it is a pretty sad that you'd be willing to break the law for this paltry amount.
If I can think of it, so can lots of others. And the REALLY sad part is that there are a WHOLE lot of people who would do something like that to someone else. Figure they can get 5 hours worth of charge per day by doing this in the dead of night. $50 a day times 7 days is $350 a week, times 4 weeks before someone notices that their electrical bill is $1400 more than it should be (assuming they're being billed monthly, not bi-monthly or quarterly). And just like that it's now far from small potatoes.
Over here in New Zealand , it's just past $2.00 per litre for 91 oct so for us it's $9 a imp gallon and they saying could be up to $2.50 by the end of the year ,food too is going up at the same rate as the oil prices so soon I be pushing the car and digging up the lawn and planting vegetable. Years ago ,I heard someone invent something that made his car run on water ,well I think it's time he got it out of the cupboard and made some good money.
I don't think an electric would work on my rough landscape nor do they make self propelled ones afaik,
Couldn't say if any electric is self propelled, my new one is and its the first one I have had that is. Sure makes it a whole lot easier to mow since the lot is graded (not so much that its that noticeable but enough to make mowing a chore after a while).
Its also the first mower I have ever seen with a hose attachment, just attach a hose turn on the water and run the mower and it cleans it out.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My next door neighbor used to have a lawn service come in and mow his lawn, trim and edge, etc. They used one of those mowers with the rear steering, that can turn on a dime, while other guys walked around with weed whackers and push mowers to trim the areas the riding mower couldn't reach. They'd usually knock the place out in about a half hour or so.
This year though, I've seen him out there, cutting the yard himself. He has an electric push mower and I don't think it's very strong, because it seems to take him forever, and he's constantly wrestling around with the extension cord. He never gets the whole yard done in one sitting, either. I dunno what his story is...whether he's falling on hard financial times, or if he's just doing it to save money, or if he's doing it for the environment. I'm sure that lawn crew coming in with their gasoline powered equipment, not to mention the big truck they drive up in, use up a lot of gas and put out a lot of pollutants.
Figure they can get 5 hours worth of charge per day by doing this in the dead of night. $50 a day times 7 days is $350 a week, times 4 weeks before someone notices that their electrical bill is $1400 more than it should be
This scenario is so implausible as to be just plain silly. First off we are talking about a public charging station so it would have nothing to do with someone's electric bill. And nobody would pre-pay for $50 worth of electricity. Even at 20 cents per kWh that's 250 kWh. A battery pack that large would weigh 5,000 lbs. And finally where would this electricity thief be putting this stolen power? In his own EV with it's 5,000 lb battery pack? Early EV owners are going to be relatively affluent and "green" minded. Not the type of people who'd be getting up in the dead of night to steal a few dollars of electricity. If this charging station vulnerability is one of the biggest obstacles you can think of for EVs then they have a bright future.
First off we are talking about a public charging station so it would have nothing to do with someone's electric bill.
People were talking about charging stations at apartment complexes wired to the electrical feed for the apartment itself, so it's hardly improbable.
And nobody would pre-pay for $50 worth of electricity.
When you use a credit card to fuel your car, it just goes until it's full and then charges the credit card. There's no reason why a public charging station would work any differently.
And finally where would this electricity thief be putting this stolen power? In his own EV with it's 5,000 lb battery pack?
In a word, yep. If it takes less than overnight to charge the EV, then what's the point of having charge-while-you-sleep charging stations? That's why I advocate gas-station-type charging stations where you swipe, "pump" your batteries to full, then drive away after 5 minutes. Any scenario where you plug your car into a charger and then leave it for X amount of time is an invitation for theives to tap into the power feed that you paid for.
Early EV owners are going to be relatively affluent and "green" minded. Not the type of people who'd be getting up in the dead of night to steal a few dollars of electricity.
Eventually the idea is for them to be ubiquitous...and this is the sort of problem that could likely happen at that point. It's important to play devils advocate and think of these things ahead of time in order to account for them.
If this charging station vulnerability is one of the biggest obstacles you can think of for EVs then they have a bright future.
The vandalism issue is significant, but I think the ice/rain connection issue in a public spot is more daunting. That will have to be pretty fool-proof so you're 18-year old daughter, or 80-year old father don't electrocute themselves. I also think that if the majority of vehicles on the road are EV's and the power goes out for a few days, that areas transport will quickly shutdown unless this imaginary fleet of recharging vehicles materializes.
I've been through ice-storms and blizzards before and the reason the area recovers is because a) I have heating oil in a tank, b) I have a tank of gas and gas cans to get keep me mobile for 1-2 weeks, and 3) because I store wood for heating purposes. Those are fuels that I STORE - which is the important concept. If I rely on electricity which is transmitted as I need it and several hundred miles of powerlines are down, you're in trouble.
And a pure-EV is not going to have a good range when it is sitting at 0F, needs to warmup the vehicle - defrost windows, and provide lights, heat, and wipers, as well as propel the vehicle; which will be less efficient in snow. I don't see EV's being very popular in northern climes, unless there are much better batteries.
Vandalism might be an issue but no more so than any other item of value that is left unprotected.
I live in an area that has ice storms. I've yet to experience one that wasn't forecast. With this in mind an EV owner will make sure he's got a charged battery. Just like everyone runs out to the store to stock up on essentials before the storm hits. I've also been in ice/snow storms where whether or not you had gas in your vehicle or a charged battery pack was irrelevant since you weren't driving any place regardless.
they said that gas in Britain is up to 6 pounds a gallon. That would be $12 U.S. at current exchange rates.
I imagine their pain is worse than ours at $4, even given the disparity between the two countries in terms of public transit availability, etc.
I see the oil CEOs are on Capitol Hill in hearings again today. They're whining that the U.S. is the only nation around the world to bar its citizens from drilling its own resources. I guess they are trying to imply that if we had drilled ANWR, gas would be $1.50 right now. Pshaw. Talk about duck and cover.
Of course, nothing will come of the hearings, nothing ever does.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I saw a proposed system where you drive through a building that looks like a car wash. A robotic gizmo swaps out your battery pack and you are in and out in a few minutes. The manufacturers would have to standardize the access port and battery pack.
And thanks to everyone for ignoring the spammer. :shades:
Man.... gone for a week, and it took me the last couple of days to catch up on the 500 or so posts I missed... you folks have been busy!
I was in the Caribbean, and drove around in a rented 2007 Toyota Corolla. Had the usual quizzical look from the Hertz folk when I asked if they had anything with a manual tranny...
Not sure what the actual price of gas was; I do know that it cost me $44 US to fill up (about 1/2 tank) after I drove about 230 KM in a week. It is always interesting to me to see how different economies work; There, gas is significantly more expensive than it is here, however you see very few big American cars, tons of tiny European and Asian vehicles, motorcycles, and scooters. And of course, people walk more. Geography also helps - smaller countries just don't have the distance between destinations that many of us here in the US do.
I will say that I had some time to think about the divide between people who see driving as a utilitarian task, and people who enjoy it. The Corolla was effective - it got us from place A to place B, started everytime, and had working A/C, but it sure was not fun; as someone who likes to enjoy driving, I'm not sure if I'll willingly submit to eliminating all the enjoyment, just to get a Prius.
Our economy, our society, cannot exist without cheap petroleum from non-US sources.
Now that is a very strong statement. Rather alarmist IMO.
Our way of life is unsustainable. We are slowly waking up to that reality. But any suggestion that insinuates that expensive petroleum results in the destruction of our society is over the top. We're smarter and more resilient than that.
The future will offer full-electric cars recharged through the existing power grid supplied by nuclear plants. No more coal-fired electric generation, and fossil-fuel powered cars emitting all those nasty carbon compounds.
Nuclear technology is already proven and time-tested, and if France can generate all its electricity with nuke plants, then so can we. We also already have a reliable electric grid across the nation. So the infrastructure is there, and the battery technology will become practical by the time we can construct the electric facilities. All we need to do is keep the socialists that masquerade as environmentalists out of the process, and we'll be home free.
As for the fears of "electricity theft," they're overblown. Once the regional nuclear stations are up and running, electricity will be so cheap that it won't be worth the effort to steal it. Kind of like gasoline used to be when it was $1/gal. .
A robotic gizmo swaps out your battery pack and you are in and out in a few minutes.
Now that is a system I could see as being viable.
To tpe: when we have ice-storms and blizzards, we still drive and go to work. Plows come that use lots of liquid fuel, people who are prepared have 4WD, and my work has a generator and a week's worth of oil - remnant from Y2K. Thousands and thousands of people HAVE to get to work during the worst of situations - from people who open the grocery and gas stations, to firemen, police, utility workers ... Again, unless you have some miracle battery, as yet unconceived except for nuclear, a fully-charged battery is not going to last long in the winter with the environment and all the accessories that run.
A full-EV is good for a 2nd vehicle, commuting, no heavy loads, under fairly optimal conditions. It is not the sort of vehicle I would rely on in extraordinary conditions. Stored fuel is better than relying on the electrical grid.
if gas was $2.00 per gallon just two years ago when Oil was around $20 a barrel, then why hasn't gas prices gone up 5x ($10 per gallon) since the cost for a barrel is now well over $100 per barrel.
Were the oil companies giving us a big break two years ago?
$8.51 per barrel on 12/11/98. I knew it dropped under $10 for a while. That is cheap. Think Congress was feeling sorry for the oil companies about that time. I know we were real slow in Alaska during much of the 1990s. Boom or bust....
Comments
"Fuel economy is measured under controlled conditions in a laboratory using a standardized test procedure specified by federal law. Manufacturers test their own vehicles—usually pre-production prototypes—and report the results to EPA. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of them through their own tests at the National Vehicles and Fuel Emissions Laboratory."
Header: How Vehicles Are Tested EPA
I LOVED that article on the new market for Geo Metros! I do think that lady was crazy for paying $7300 for a 13 year old Metro, but you can't argue with real-world mileage in the mid-50s.
I will add my voice to the growing chorus calling for lightweight, lower power, simple cars to return, with the great fuel economy they bring along. My car is rated almost totally five stars for crash ratings, built in 2002, weighs 2100 pounds. It was the last of a dying breed, but the everyday 41 mpg I get in it is a huge benefit in these days of way-high gas prices. When Toyota redesigned this car in 2006, the weight increased by 200 pounds (due mostly to increased features and a needless increase in size, NOT increased safety equipment) and fuel economy dropped. Way to go guys. But of course, they were just following an industry trend highlighted by this article.
gagrice: it seems that the premium for extracting a diesel-powered car from VW's hands is even more than the one to extract a hybrid from anyone else's hands, and the payback isn't as good compared to hybrids vs their non-hybrid counterparts. I have been following the hybrid v diesel debate closely, waiting for the day when a profusion of diesel passenger cars would be available in America again. Now that the day is drawing near, we find hybrids selling for discounts, and diesel priced 20% or more above regular unleaded gas. If things stay like this another year, diesels will have a hard time finding their way back into the market in any numbers I think (except for large SUVs and pick-ups, where they should have been the exclusive powertrain available all along, and where they are VERY tardy in arriving now).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You can see Santa--sorry about the blur. The stop shake didn't work.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Maybe you should read my post again. I did not question the validity of the EPA test. Though real people get much better mileage than the EPA test indicates in the case of the VW diesels. The VW diesels get much higher mileage on the UK tests. Not that it makes much difference as your mileage may vary. Maybe you can answer this. Did the manufacturers go back and retest all their older models for the new EPA estimates. They were all downgraded WITHOUT testing any of them. It was just a formula that had NO basis in actual mileage for any given vehicle.
Diesel prices "jumped" ahead of gasoline prices for valid, market-based reasons.
If that is the case, which I would question. Why all through 2005 BP/ARCO sold ONLY ULSD in CA for the same or less than high sulfur diesel in my area? Why did it jump this year when ULSD was mandated in 2006 for CA? The cost shown to refine diesel only recently became higher than for RUG. Well after the ULSD mandate was in affect. Did we get new refineries? All questions those of US with an interest in diesel vehicles would like to know the answers to. I already know that CA taxes diesel higher than gas.
Why are West Coast diesel fuel prices higher and more variable than others?
Diesel prices on the West Coast, especially in California (CA), are relatively higher than other regions of the country, partly because of taxes, but mainly because of supply issues. The State of California assesses a combined State and local sales and use tax of 7.25% on top of the 24.4 cents/gallon Federal excise tax and an 18.0 cents/gallon State tax. Washington’s tax of 34 cents/gallon is one of the highest in the country. Besides taxes, West Coast retail prices are more variable than others because there are relatively few supply sources: 21 of the 36 refineries located in West Coast states are in CA. California refineries need to be running at near full capacity just to meet in-state demand. If more than one refinery in the region experiences operating difficulties at the same time, the diesel supply may become very tight and prices may spike. The West Coast’s substantial distance from Gulf Coast and foreign refineries is such that any unusual increase in demand or reduction in supply results in a large price response in the market before relief supplies can be delivered. The farther away the necessary relief supplies are, the higher and longer the price spike will be.
So you think that engineering some intelligence into a charging station is out of the question? For instance, once it is disconnected for even an instant this station will cease delivering electricity until another credit card is swiped. I can almost guarantee that is the way they will be designed if only for safety reasons.
But you bring up a good point regarding siphoning gas. Since gasoline is considerably more expensive than electricity anyone who leaves an ICE parked on the street is more vulnerable than the person charging his vehicle on the street.
As most of you know, I'm currently driving a Ford Taurus loaner from the collision shop repairing my RAV4. The gas tank cap on it doesn't have a lock. Last night I parked across from the location of my VVA chapter board meeting on a fairly busy street that also has a moderate amount of foot traffic. I had a little over 1/2 a tank of gas.
A bit over 2 hours later when I started up the car, the gas tank warning light came on and the gage read empty. Fortunately, I was able to make it to a nearby gas station.
At current New Jersey prices for regular (I fill up when taking my son to work east of
Trenton) about $28-$30 worth was stolen. According to local news, this is happening with some frequency in this area.
When it comes to oil, this is one of the few markets that we get screwed on for having free markets...
There's all kinds of security measures that could ensure the ONLY you could use your electrical source. You could have passwords that need to be entered everytime it becomes disconnected.
A little creativity can go a long way here.
Brother can you spare a watt?
Anyway, I will react that way any time someone utters "conspiracy" or "price fixing" or "gouging" because I am a firm believer that the world oil/fuel markets develop without the undue influence of any one group who is trying to make a huge profit from the situation.
Prices are what they are because of the current geo-political climate and the infrastructure which is in place. That stuff cannot be changed overnight, and no one group can make a change and have things develop differently.
I guess one scenario that could make things interesting is if OPEC said they are stopping exports. Then all Hades would break loose !!!
Since the price in San Jose, Ca officially topped $4.00 for RUG I would like to add what I do differently.
I have the luxury of working close to home as a contractor. My client base has built over the years to let me work no further that 5 miles from home. I make far further runs to Home Depot. I can not justify driving 10 miles round trip for a $5.00 item - so quite often I buy more than I need and return things later. I also ride bikes with my kids to school at least once per week to get excersize, show other people it's doable and of course save gas, money, the environment......
Sure, just like hundreds of software engineers have put security features in Windows and Vista? Or thousands of SW engineers have made the Internet secure.
It would be about 1-2 days before someone looks at these charger systems and figures out a way to bypass the security; it'll be another week or 2 before it is all over the Internet.
Or you'll just have vandals who do a range of things to them, from: disconnecting them, to pouring soda on them, jamming stuff in the slots, or throwing a rope around them and pulling them out of the ground.
I live in a pretty crime-free area, but have already lost 1 hood ornament this year. These outdoor public rechargers will be a prime target for teens and gangs. Lemko can probably even comment on how in his area, people go missing their registration tags as thieves snip that part of the plate away.
It Shall Be Done. Where is your confidence in American engineering?
Those parking lot kiosks in Tempe Arizona are not vandalized or messed with, ever.
These arguments against charging stations are so feeble as to be comical.
So you're going to tap into one of these stations, steal the electricity and laugh all the way to the bank. My guess is they will be delivering around $10 worth of electricity an hour. Yeah, that's a little above minimum wage but laughing all the way to the bank, I don't know about that. However it is a pretty sad that you'd be willing to break the law for this paltry amount.
You would do well in Mexico. I have a fellow that helps me from time to time. He lives on the outskirts of Tijuana. After waiting over a month for the electricity to be hooked up to their new houses, he and his neighbor climbed up the pole and tapped onto the lines. That was several years ago. The reason I know is I asked him how much electricity costs in Mexico and he got a big grin on his face and told me the story. It is very common down there for a contractor to just clip onto the power when building a new home. When we all have EVs it will look something like this in the Neighborhood.
And Danny Raymond says he just likes using the mules around the farm.
"We've been using them quite a bit," he said.
Brother Robert Raymond added, "It's the way of the future."
I knew we should not have sold our draft horses back in 1980.
CANTON -- The city of Canton is being overwhelmed by a literally growing problem -- property owners who won't use a lawnmower.
The city now cuts grass and weeds on more than 2,000 thousand privately-owned lots at a cost of a quarter million dollars a year.
Foreclosures are a big part of the problem. But most of the lots are owned by Canton residents.
Health Department officials are worried about creating hiding places for rats and breeding grounds for ticks.
Council is expected to pass a law Monday that could carry jail time for a second offense. Repeat offenders could face a $250 fine and 30 days in jail.
City leaders promise this law won't be used on senior or sickly property owners.
"This law is for that person that's healthy, alive and irresponsible," said Environmental Health Director Mark Adams.
Councilman Greg Hawk said, "We don't want to be in the lawnmowing businesses. We're looking for the repeat offender we're providing cheap lawn maintenance for."
http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=90053&catid=3
2,000 thousand? Why thats 2 million Canton must be pretty crowded. :shades:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Here in SD county they send you a notice that the weeds around the perimeter must be cut. On our place they would bill $5000 to cut them. We would get it done for about $300 most years. You don't pay it is added to your tax bill with very high penalties. Evidently Canton needs some instruction on extracting money from the residents.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Gas popped to $3.79 here, with premium over the barrier at $4.01. Diesel is $4.65.
The US uses almost 21 million barrels of oil a day, and produces about 7 million. Think about that. Our economy, our society, cannot exist without cheap petroleum from non-US sources. The supplies from friendly allies are diminishing rapidly. Our very way of life is being handed to people who hate us, billions of dollars at a time.
Ethanol has been exposed as a disaster already. Just open up drilling in ANWR, exploit oil shale, etc? This is all BS. If you look at the real numbers behind domestic alternatives, we have maybe 14 years of conventional oil at 21 million barrels a day. After that, we are screwed, Oil shale is a myth. There is neither the water nor the electricity in that area of the country to make a dent in our demand, even if a process can be developed that doesn't burn more energy than it provides. Brazil? The recent Brazilian announcements require technology that has never been used in production. Coal to oil? Sure, as long as we totally ignore the environmental implications and start building the dozens of nuke plants to power the process NOW.
The day OPEC and Russia get together and decide America needs to be rendered insignificant, they can do it without firing a single missile. The US today produces about the same amount of petroleum that it did in the mid-50's. Cut us off tomorrow, and our society is seized up within six months. It would make 1973 look like a minor disruption. So you trust 'market forces'? $4.00 a gallon gas? Try $16 a gallon. You laugh? Gas was under $1.00 ten years ago. Why do you think it will not be $16.00 ten years from now?
If we wait any longer to begin a 'moonshot' effort to get our energy situation under control, we might as well resign ourselves to third-world status and get it over with. The amount of petroleum we produce domestically would be barely sufficient for military, agriculture, manufacturing, mass transit, shipping and pharmaceuticals. There would be none leftover for your F350 Powersmoke. Sorry.
Necessity. I do think fuel will spiral up and up and up and it will hurt us a lot. We then will use our considerable collective ingenuity to design new systems; new systems of working, new systems of living at home, new power systems and especially new fuel systems. I think celluosic ethanol is a key player in the future along with biodiesel from algae. These IMO will moderate the pain somewhat. Each can be made in our individual localities in all parts of the country, not just Iowa, so they should become a civic venture run by and for the local citizenry.
Greed. There's $Trillions to be made by the first one to market with a total solution to ameliorate the pain.
If I can think of it, so can lots of others. And the REALLY sad part is that there are a WHOLE lot of people who would do something like that to someone else. Figure they can get 5 hours worth of charge per day by doing this in the dead of night. $50 a day times 7 days is $350 a week, times 4 weeks before someone notices that their electrical bill is $1400 more than it should be (assuming they're being billed monthly, not bi-monthly or quarterly). And just like that it's now far from small potatoes.
up the lawn and planting vegetable. Years ago ,I heard someone invent something that made his car run on water ,well I think it's time he got it out of the cupboard and made some good money.
Couldn't say if any electric is self propelled, my new one is and its the first one I have had that is. Sure makes it a whole lot easier to mow since the lot is graded (not so much that its that noticeable but enough to make mowing a chore after a while).
Its also the first mower I have ever seen with a hose attachment, just attach a hose turn on the water and run the mower and it cleans it out.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
This year though, I've seen him out there, cutting the yard himself. He has an electric push mower and I don't think it's very strong, because it seems to take him forever, and he's constantly wrestling around with the extension cord. He never gets the whole yard done in one sitting, either. I dunno what his story is...whether he's falling on hard financial times, or if he's just doing it to save money, or if he's doing it for the environment. I'm sure that lawn crew coming in with their gasoline powered equipment, not to mention the big truck they drive up in, use up a lot of gas and put out a lot of pollutants.
This scenario is so implausible as to be just plain silly. First off we are talking about a public charging station so it would have nothing to do with someone's electric bill. And nobody would pre-pay for $50 worth of electricity. Even at 20 cents per kWh that's 250 kWh. A battery pack that large would weigh 5,000 lbs. And finally where would this electricity thief be putting this stolen power? In his own EV with it's 5,000 lb battery pack? Early EV owners are going to be relatively affluent and "green" minded. Not the type of people who'd be getting up in the dead of night to steal a few dollars of electricity. If this charging station vulnerability is one of the biggest obstacles you can think of for EVs then they have a bright future.
People were talking about charging stations at apartment complexes wired to the electrical feed for the apartment itself, so it's hardly improbable.
And nobody would pre-pay for $50 worth of electricity.
When you use a credit card to fuel your car, it just goes until it's full and then charges the credit card. There's no reason why a public charging station would work any differently.
And finally where would this electricity thief be putting this stolen power? In his own EV with it's 5,000 lb battery pack?
In a word, yep. If it takes less than overnight to charge the EV, then what's the point of having charge-while-you-sleep charging stations? That's why I advocate gas-station-type charging stations where you swipe, "pump" your batteries to full, then drive away after 5 minutes. Any scenario where you plug your car into a charger and then leave it for X amount of time is an invitation for theives to tap into the power feed that you paid for.
Early EV owners are going to be relatively affluent and "green" minded. Not the type of people who'd be getting up in the dead of night to steal a few dollars of electricity.
Eventually the idea is for them to be ubiquitous...and this is the sort of problem that could likely happen at that point. It's important to play devils advocate and think of these things ahead of time in order to account for them.
The vandalism issue is significant, but I think the ice/rain connection issue in a public spot is more daunting. That will have to be pretty fool-proof so you're 18-year old daughter, or 80-year old father don't electrocute themselves. I also think that if the majority of vehicles on the road are EV's and the power goes out for a few days, that areas transport will quickly shutdown unless this imaginary fleet of recharging vehicles materializes.
I've been through ice-storms and blizzards before and the reason the area recovers is because a) I have heating oil in a tank, b) I have a tank of gas and gas cans to get keep me mobile for 1-2 weeks, and 3) because I store wood for heating purposes. Those are fuels that I STORE - which is the important concept. If I rely on electricity which is transmitted as I need it and several hundred miles of powerlines are down, you're in trouble.
And a pure-EV is not going to have a good range when it is sitting at 0F, needs to warmup the vehicle - defrost windows, and provide lights, heat, and wipers, as well as propel the vehicle; which will be less efficient in snow. I don't see EV's being very popular in northern climes, unless there are much better batteries.
I live in an area that has ice storms. I've yet to experience one that wasn't forecast. With this in mind an EV owner will make sure he's got a charged battery. Just like everyone runs out to the store to stock up on essentials before the storm hits. I've also been in ice/snow storms where whether or not you had gas in your vehicle or a charged battery pack was irrelevant since you weren't driving any place regardless.
I imagine their pain is worse than ours at $4, even given the disparity between the two countries in terms of public transit availability, etc.
I see the oil CEOs are on Capitol Hill in hearings again today. They're whining that the U.S. is the only nation around the world to bar its citizens from drilling its own resources. I guess they are trying to imply that if we had drilled ANWR, gas would be $1.50 right now. Pshaw. Talk about duck and cover.
Of course, nothing will come of the hearings, nothing ever does.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
to switch to plugin cars like the chevy volt.
And thanks to everyone for ignoring the spammer. :shades:
I was in the Caribbean, and drove around in a rented 2007 Toyota Corolla. Had the usual quizzical look from the Hertz folk when I asked if they had anything with a manual tranny...
Not sure what the actual price of gas was; I do know that it cost me $44 US to fill up (about 1/2 tank) after I drove about 230 KM in a week. It is always interesting to me to see how different economies work; There, gas is significantly more expensive than it is here, however you see very few big American cars, tons of tiny European and Asian vehicles, motorcycles, and scooters. And of course, people walk more. Geography also helps - smaller countries just don't have the distance between destinations that many of us here in the US do.
I will say that I had some time to think about the divide between people who see driving as a utilitarian task, and people who enjoy it. The Corolla was effective - it got us from place A to place B, started everytime, and had working A/C, but it sure was not fun; as someone who likes to enjoy driving, I'm not sure if I'll willingly submit to eliminating all the enjoyment, just to get a Prius.
Now that is a very strong statement. Rather alarmist IMO.
Our way of life is unsustainable. We are slowly waking up to that reality. But any suggestion that insinuates that expensive petroleum results in the destruction of our society is over the top. We're smarter and more resilient than that.
Slice mine real thin and almost burn it around the edges. I like to add some chopped cilantro on the sandwich too.
Gasoline sets 15th-straight record (CNN) - The nationwide average for a gallon of regular unleaded rose to $3.831.
And hurricane season starts on June 1....
Nuclear technology is already proven and time-tested, and if France can generate all its electricity with nuke plants, then so can we. We also already have a reliable electric grid across the nation. So the infrastructure is there, and the battery technology will become practical by the time we can construct the electric facilities. All we need to do is keep the socialists that masquerade as environmentalists out of the process, and we'll be home free.
As for the fears of "electricity theft," they're overblown. Once the regional nuclear stations are up and running, electricity will be so cheap that it won't be worth the effort to steal it. Kind of like gasoline used to be when it was $1/gal.
.
Now that is a system I could see as being viable.
To tpe: when we have ice-storms and blizzards, we still drive and go to work. Plows come that use lots of liquid fuel, people who are prepared have 4WD, and my work has a generator and a week's worth of oil - remnant from Y2K.
Thousands and thousands of people HAVE to get to work during the worst of situations - from people who open the grocery and gas stations, to firemen, police, utility workers ...
Again, unless you have some miracle battery, as yet unconceived except for nuclear, a fully-charged battery is not going to last long in the winter with the environment and all the accessories that run.
A full-EV is good for a 2nd vehicle, commuting, no heavy loads, under fairly optimal conditions. It is not the sort of vehicle I would rely on in extraordinary conditions. Stored fuel is better than relying on the electrical grid.
Were the oil companies giving us a big break two years ago?
I can't do the math on this one.
PS
all that talk of a Spam sandwich with cilantro is making me hungry. All I had for breakfast was oatmeal with chopped up dates.