Sunroof leak on my Saturn Outlook

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Comments

  • dompdomp Member Posts: 24
    Thanks for the suggestions. Still hoping customer service will help. It's my two week anniversary now that the dealer has had my car.

    I really don't see why GM wouldn't handle this issue better. GM must know this is a chronic issue - just a few minutes on edmunds, nhtsa, youtube, facebook, and the saturn outlook boards and the outlook clone sites and it's clear how big of an issue it is. They're going to wait until the leak causes significant damage to the car instead of dealing with the leak sooner? I don't get it - is this a way to get more service $$$ at the expense of the cars reputation, resale value and GMs reputation?

    Sad, but is it going to take a string of accidents and injuries from the enging running, shifting, power steering, etc. issues before this gets addressed by GM properly?
  • echelon079echelon079 Member Posts: 1
    So our 2007 sunroof just started leaking water. We purchased the car certified pre owned for a GM dealer and now are being told that our dual sunroof was not factory installed. This is an OEM sunroof, it looks exactly as any other setup in in that vehicle. Has anyone else ran into this?
  • deathtrap2007deathtrap2007 Member Posts: 1
    My Saturn Outlook 2007 is a Death Trap:

    Last night while my family and I were driving back home we almost died thanks to my leaky roof...
    We left the restaurant and I noticed that there was water coming in on the front airbag column this was supposed to be fixed in 2008 by the dealer, and I'm not sure for how long this has been going on. We take care of our car and only have around 37,000 miles on it since 2007.
    I was driving around 45 MPH and the steering on it stopped working, I mean I could not turn the thing ½” either way...there were cars going around me since it conveniently happened while driving slightly down hill and around a curve.

    After reading online this seems to be a huge problem and I wonder how many people have to get in a crash or die before GM will release a recall.
    I will never purchase another GM vehicle again. I'm going to drop this $33,000 piece of crap at the dealer this weekend and hope I don't get screwed.
    I will not let my wife drive it period...and I hope we don't die because of this problem. The only thing that helps me sleep a bit easier is the fact that I did not pay the extra $10,000 for the Acadia when the people who bought that will have the same problems for a greater cost.
  • gmcustsvcgmcustsvc Member Posts: 4,252
    echelon079,
    Thank you for taking the time to post your concerns. Can you please email me directly with your VIN, current mileage, and the name of your dealer? I would like to look into this further.
    Christina
    GM Customer Service
    [email protected]
  • dompdomp Member Posts: 24
    I agree. 12hours after leaving the dealer and over $1500 poorer, I'm again stuck on the side of the road trying to coax my car out of first gear before turning onto a 50mph road. Should've gone straight to from the dealer to trade it in. Perhaps I'll get lucky and get rear ended next time this happens. 1) at least it'll be covered by insurance since GM won't help and 2) perhaps that would bring added attention to these problems.
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Member Posts: 1,964
    deathtrap2007,

    I'm sorry to read about the situation with your Outlook while you were out on the road, and that you have decided to trade it in this upcoming Saturday. I hope that any hunt for a replacement vehicle goes smoothly, and if we can answer any questions we're happy to assist. Email us at [email protected]

    Best,
    Sarah
    GM Customer Service
  • soccermom603soccermom603 Member Posts: 2
    Holy ££££ I am having the same exact problem with my 2007 Saturn.... It is shorting something and draining my battery. I think it is from the leaking sun roof. In the last 3 weeks I have dropped $2,000.00 into it or more.. Let me know what you find out please.
  • dompdomp Member Posts: 24
    My 2007 was also draining the battery so sounds like it may be the same issue. I'm told front drain tubes are one issue (in my case covered by by GM - not sure if it was a recall or warranty). Those soaked my floors seats and headliner around the sunroof. The new issue is supposedly around the rear moonroof I think. Not covered by GM at all - $1500+ so far (no help with that from GM, dealer, or customer service) and there is still a shifting issue so expecting the bill to go even higher.

    Odd that their saying the front sunroof drains onto the floor and seat but this water problem is completely different (therefore not covered) and travels from the rear moonroof goes past the front sunroof, past the seat, past the floors, all the way to the engine compartment.

    Might want to try customer customer service for the heck of it - I think some have had some help.
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    edited May 2012
    FOLKS~ I believe that no doubt the water leaks are under the Secret Warranty - what do you think ? It's way overdue but it's time to become proactive as a group.....

    Keywords: Manufacturers often stonewall the consumer over secret warranties knowing that many consumers will give up in utter frustration and go away mad. Don't.

    Tell the local media about your secret warranty problem. Many consumers get reimbursed because a local Action Line, newspaper or television station starts to take an interest in a secret warranty. After all, if a manufacturer is trying to keep a secret warranty secret, the last thing the company wants is publicity on the secret warranty. A particularly good strategy is to announce the formation of a group to expose the particular secret warranty affecting your car. Even if the group is small as you and your neighbor, a group is powerful and attracts more attention than an individual.

    Small Claims Court
    Manufacturers often stonewall the consumer over secret warranties knowing that many consumers will give up in utter frustration and go away mad. Don't. Take the documentation on the secret warranty and your repair efforts to small claims court. At this point, it's the manufacturer who often gives up knowing that the legal rights are on the consumer's side. The manufacturer relies on its own complaint handling mechanism to wear down consumers. once you show you won't be beat by the manufacturer's complaint handling mechanism, you should succeed. The manufacturer will finally recognize its responsibility for the defect in your car and reimburse you.

    Conclusion
    The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The consumers who complain the loudest get reimbursed under secret warranties. The good customer who goes away quietly gets ripped off. Until auto companies wake up and realize that consumer protection is good business, consumers have to be aggressive or they will wind up paying for an auto company's mistake. Since billions of dollars in repairs are covered by secret warranties, the total benefit to consumers in exercising their rights is enormous.


    Secret warranties are a multi-billion consumer abuse. Every auto company makes mistakes in building cars. Whether they are design defects that affect every car or whether they are manufacturing defects which affect only some cars, they must be repaired. The only question is who pays for the manufacturers' mistakes, the manufacturer or the consumer. Although the auto manufacturer often establishes a secret warranty to pay for the repair, all too often it is the consumer who pays for the manufacturer's mistake because the consumer never finds out about the secret warranty. That's wrong and the Center for Auto Safety wants to change it.

    In a 1987 report the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) created national headlines by identifying 10 exemplary secret warranties covering 30 million vehicles and $3 billion in repair costs. Yet this is but the tip of the iceberg for we estimate that at any one time over 500 secret warranties exist for all auto companies. According to a Toyota whistleblower who provided a complete list in May 1988, Toyota alone had 41 secret warranties at that time.

    By exposing secret warranties, CAS forces manufacturers to pay for their mistakes and creates a strong incentive for them to build better cars in the future. once secret warranties are disclosed, consumers will save hundreds, if not thousands, in repair bills on their personal cars. Spurred on by CAS exposes, state legislatures are moving to pass secret warranty disclosure laws that will protect consumers. Until then, consumers must rely on the strategies suggested in our book, Little Secrets of the Auto Industry, to discover and use secret warranties to pay for repairs in their vehicles.

    What is a secret warranty?
    Auto companies hate the term secret warranties. They call them policy adjustments, good will programs, service campaigns or extended warranties . But whatever they are called, they are a longstanding industry practice. When a car company has a major defect that occurs after its written warranty expires, it establishes an adjustment policy to pay for repairs rather than deal with many thousands, if not millions, of complaints on a case by case basis. But the auto company communicates the policy only to regional offices and not even always to its dealers. The auto manufacturers never notify the consumer; so only the consumer who complains loudly enough gets covered by the secret warranty. Other consumers end up bearing the costs of the manufacturer's mistakes.

    Examples of Secret Warranties
    CAS has documented case after case of secret warranties since our founding in 1970. one of the first and most famous was Ford's J-67 Limited Service Program which covered rust on 12 million 1969-72 cars and trucks. In this case a bulletin which went out only to Ford regional offices stated, "This is a limited service program without dealership notification and should be administered on an individual complaint basis." Under this program, Ford would pay up to 100% to repair rust and paint damage on its vehicles even if it cost over a $1000.

    CAS has uncovered secret warranties on all auto companies with little differences between them. A 1972 Mazda secret warranty bulletin doubled the coverage for rotary engine damage but cautioned, "Since this is a temporary program which may be terminated at [any] time, owners are not to be informed of the extended coverage." Honda had secret warranties on head gaskets and rusting fenders in the mid-1970's; Chrysler had rusting fenders on Volares and Aspens in the late 1970's; GM had the transmission secret warranty caused by a ban on sperm whale oil as a lubricant; Peugeot and Subaru both covered defective head gaskets; and VW covered valve stem seals.

    Secret warranties soared after 1980 when the federal government dropped all efforts to ban them. GM had a 5 year/50,000 mile secret warranty covering repair of defective rack and pinion power steering systems on all 16 million of its 1981-88 front wheel drive cars. Toyota covered pulsating brakes on its 1983-86 Camry in a $100 million secret warranty. Ford never told owners of its 1985-92 F-series pickups that America's most popular truck had peeling paint because Ford skipped the primer layer. According to Nissan documents provided to CAS by a whistleblower in 1990, Nissan had at one time up to 48 secret warranties covering various cars and trucks.

    There is no doubt that auto manufacturers presently have many other secret warranties. However, assessing how widespread secret warranty programs are is difficult because these programs, by definition, are not intended for public disclosure. Since CAS began exposing secret warranties more widely in the 1980's, the auto makers having gotten better at keeping them secret. Even CAS can no longer get lists of secret warranties to disclose. one Honda insider to
  • bubbles1956bubbles1956 Member Posts: 32
    I got GM to pay for my moonroof lining. After two times bringing in my car and they couldn't find the leaks...they paid for the $400 plus repair of replacing the liner. The first time I took my car in last year they told me it might be the drain tubes getting dirty. That never sounded right to me anyway since I only opened that sunroof maybe twice in the 4 years I had it. I still think if everyone sent a letter to the National news and talked to a lawyer about a class action law suit...something might be done.
  • dompdomp Member Posts: 24
    They covered both front and rear leaks? I just don't get it. They covered the front leak for my 2007 when it leaked soon after purchase. But customer service has been ZERO help for by moonroof leak. $1300 spent so far - issues still aren't resolved - and the only way to tell if the moonroof is leaking in mine is for it to fry something electronic since it causes no visible interior damage in mine.

    Congratulations on getting yours covered.
  • joyztoyjoyztoy Member Posts: 9
    After the 6th visit to my dealership, where they worked on it for 2 more weeks, I think they may have fixed my water leak. I got it back and of course we had record breaking rains with flooding and my Saturn held up to the rain. No leaks during the worst rain in years. I am hopefull that it will hold! I am still holding onto my GM case number because you never know...

    And thanks to Polar Chev, they covered the costs. I would go back to them in a heartbeat for any repairs that I have to pay for. What a good crew!
  • postonnopostonno Member Posts: 12
    My Outlook has been in 3 different dealerships a total of 7 times since I purchased it new 8/08. The problem is, it doesn't always leak, nor can the dealers make it leak. Maybe Polar Chevrolet knows some secret? Where are they located?
  • bubbles56bubbles56 Shreveport LAMember Posts: 7
    My dealership found the leak for me as well. It took them three times to find it. They ended up having to remove the liner and one guy sat in the car with a flash light while another just kept pouring water over the sunroof. Eventually it started to show the water dripping and he tracked it to my moonroof liner. The typical 15 minute water test is CRAP that they do. They have to really get that car wet and keep the water running for at least 30 minutes. I think it took an hour of running water before they found mine.
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Member Posts: 1,964
    What great news, joyztoy! :) I'm happy to hear that they have been able to (hopefully) get the leak taken care of.
    Many dry and happy miles!
    Sarah
    GM Customer Service
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Member Posts: 1,964
    postonno,
    My last message to you was when everything seemed to be fixed - I'm sorry that this wasn't the case! I just wanted to offer again to look into this with you through Customer Service as you've been in so many times on this same concern. Please email us at [email protected] with the following information: your name/Edmunds username, phone and address, the last 8 of your VIN and current mileage, and the name of your preferred dealership.

    Regards,
    Sarah
    GM Customer Service
  • bubbles56bubbles56 Shreveport LAMember Posts: 7
    All the people who have Outlooks, Enclaves and Acadia's should go to the website for mycarstats and file a complaint so the database can reflect the actual problems with these vehicles.
  • joyztoyjoyztoy Member Posts: 9
    Polar Chev is in White Bear Lake MN. A suburb of St Paul MN

    They too also dropped the headliner a few times and had a tech sit in there and wait for the water to start dripping.
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    If you live in California you can contact a lawyer that deals with Product liability. I think it's
    against the rules on this site to mention the law firm however it is on the Saturn-Gm Outlook and Arcadia lemons page on Facebook. The law firm gave me permission to mention this firm that is located in San Francisco. I recently contacted them and gave them a wealth of information but unfortunately I don't live in California and the laws don't apply to me. However, they said by all the information on our car I provided them we definitively had a case if we lived in CA. I hope those in California can receive some justice and help with GM. The law in CA is not only Lemon Law but breach of warranty of mercantability. This only applies to certain States. It allows a vehicle owner a repurchase if the vehicle has so many problems that it does not meet the legal standard for ordinary goods of this type.If you go to the Facebook page and scroll down there is a story of a man that lives in California that through the Better Business Bureau and due to the laws that apply GM bought his 2007 Saturn Outlook back, no money out of pocket as he was represented by the BBB. Good luck to those that this law applies to, I hope it's helpful information in this unfortunate, injustice problem we are all facing.
  • mwh02mwh02 Member Posts: 1
    As of next week, I will have had my Outlook in for leaks 5 times. The first was one month after I bought the vehicle. The leak was so bad it had rusted out the back 2 rows of seats. If I had known what I know now, I would have demanded a refund. Now up to the present, the GM dealership is really resisting working with me. Instead the want to blame the reoccurring leaks on the company that just replaced my windshield and the company that installed my aftermarket DVD player. I have definitely learned my lesson with GM. I will never buy another GM vehicle and I will always make sure that others know about my experiences with GM in hopes that they too will avoid this irresponsible car manufacturer!
  • bubbles56bubbles56 Shreveport LAMember Posts: 7
    These are the same reports all over the different websites..just Google leaky sunroofs and you will see. Everyone needs to go online and send in a complaint to all the local and Worldwide news. You can look them up online too. File complaints with the BBB and anywhere you can. Make a lot of noise and maybe, the BIG news station will pick up the story. Then a class action law suit might follow.
  • ellimacellimac Member Posts: 6
    So nice to know that sunroof leaks were an added feature on the 2007 Outlooks! I had mine in 3 times before the warranty ran out. They told me they couldn't find a leak, but would fix it anyway. Not sure how they did that, but the leak has gone from bad to worse. Before, it would leak down the passenger side windshield, down into the carpet. Last night, it poured in, all over the center console and through the courtsey light on drivers side. My ipad and iphone were on passenger seat, both got very wet. My car smells bad from being wet, and moldy. This is a health hazard, I am allergic to mold. Sounds like this is happening to far too many owners to be ignored. What can we do to be heard?
  • ellimacellimac Member Posts: 6
    I thought mine was fixed for a year. I had minimal leaking during torrential rain from hurricane last year, but a month or so later (october 2011) it started again, running down the windshield (inside). Last night, we had moderately heavy rainfall and now it is flooding down, and through the courtesy lights. Good luck, I hope yours doesn't start up again as mine did.
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Member Posts: 1,964
    ellimac,

    We're sorry to see that you have encountered a leak multiple times in your Outlook. If we can get a Service Request going for you in our department, after which we would begin to work with your dealership towards hopefully getting this resolved, please send the following information to us at [email protected]: your name/Edmunds username, phone and address, the last 8 of your VIN and current mileage, and the name of your preferred dealership.

    Regards,
    Sarah
    GM Customer Service
  • thegumbogirlthegumbogirl Member Posts: 3
    I started googling today out of desparation. I've had my outlook in the stop now 5 or 6 times trying to fix the leaky sunroof and I've had it less than a year. They've checked the drains, replaced the windshield, replaced the glass on the sunroof, replaced the seal on the sunroof, and this last time even told me I was just closing it wrong. It's in the shop again now, the dealership having sent it to a body shop because they don't know what else to do. I've had it leak so badly that we literally stepped into water when we got into the car. I have now had bronchitis 3 times since we got the car last November. Related, I'm not sure. But I will say that I am highly allergic to mold and mildew. Does anyone have any suggestions on what to do next?
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    My suggestion is to get as educated as you can! GM is very much aware of the leaks. They even have staffed people to monitor this site as you can see. There was a service bulletin to extend the drain tubes to prevent the leaks however, that as you well know didn't work. We have had the same repairs done as you have and still have electrical issues. Research this site as best as you can before talking with GM. I wrote letters to the Attorney General , BBB and NHTSA.
    Secret Warranty information:

    Car Warranties, Recalls and Lemon Laws
    Sometimes a manufacturer makes a design or production mistake on a motor vehicle. A service bulletin notifies the dealer of the problem and how to resolve it. Because these free repairs are not publicized, they are called "secret warranties." The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration maintains a database of service bulletins filed by manufacturers.

    If you have a problem with a vehicle that is a safety hazard, check whether the manufacturer has recalled your vehicle. Click on Recalls or call NHTSA at 1-800-424-9393.Hazards that aren't listed should be reported to your dealer, the manufacturer of the vehicle, and NHTSA. If a safety-related defect exists, the maker must fix it at no cost to you-even if your warranty has expired.

    If you have a vehicle with a unique problem that just never seems to get fixed, you may have a lemon. Some states have laws concerning lemons that require a refund or replacement if a problem is not fixed within a reasonable number of tries or if you haven't been able to use your vehicle for a certain number of days. Contact your local consumer protection office to learn whether you have such protections and what steps you must take to solve your problem. If you believe your car is a lemon:

    Give the dealer a list of the problems every time you bring it in for repairs.
    Get and keep copies of the repair orders listing the problems, the work done, and the dates the car was in the shop.
    Contact the manufacturer, as well as the dealer, to report the problem. Check your owner's manual or the directory for the auto manufacturers.
    Help other consumers avoid purchasing your lemon by registering it at safetyforum.com.
    The Center for Auto Safety gathers information and complaints concerning safety defects, recalls, service bulletins and state lemon laws.

    Also, there is a forum on Facebook @ http://www.facebook.com/groups/180757711936865/.

    Good luck to you and stay strong!
  • thegumbogirlthegumbogirl Member Posts: 3
    Thank you so much for your feedback! I'm going to research all of those things tonight!
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Member Posts: 1,964
    thegumbogirl,

    We're sorry to see that you have had to revisit the dealership so many times on this leaking concern. Have you opened a case through Customer Assistance at this point? If we can do so for you, please send the following information to us at [email protected]: your name/Edmunds username, phone and address, the last 8 of your VIN and current mileage, and the name of your dealership.

    Regards,
    Sarah
    GM Customer Service
  • thegumbogirlthegumbogirl Member Posts: 3
    I just got a call from the dealership where I bought it saying that the body shop found a bulletin saying that the drain tubes needed to be extended. The body shop did it and we'll get it back tomorrow. Hope this fixes it and then the only problem will then be the messed up leather seats and the mold that no one can fix.
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    The gumbo girl, You need to check to see if that was already done. Most of the post are from people like myself that had the extension done per the bulletin and it failed. This is where the Secret Warranty comes in - the repairs done to prevent these issues happened. We purchased our 2007 Outlook last June and when we got the records it indicated it had been down. This is the leg we have to stand on... GM put this service bulletin out to the public making us aware of the defect and repairs failed. Here is more information on the secret warranty. GM paid for all of our repairs.

    Keywords: Manufacturers often stonewall the consumer over secret warranties knowing that many consumers will give up in utter frustration and go away mad. Don't.

    Tell the local media about your secret warranty problem. Many consumers get reimbursed because a local Action Line, newspaper or television station starts to take an interest in a secret warranty. After all, if a manufacturer is trying to keep a secret warranty secret, the last thing the company wants is publicity on the secret warranty. A particularly good strategy is to announce the formation of a group to expose the particular secret warranty affecting your car. Even if the group is small as you and your neighbor, a group is powerful and attracts more attention than an individual.

    Small Claims Court
    Manufacturers often stonewall the consumer over secret warranties knowing that many consumers will give up in utter frustration and go away mad. Don't. Take the documentation on the secret warranty and your repair efforts to small claims court. At this point, it's the manufacturer who often gives up knowing that the legal rights are on the consumer's side. The manufacturer relies on its own complaint handling mechanism to wear down consumers. once you show you won't be beat by the manufacturer's complaint handling mechanism, you should succeed. The manufacturer will finally recognize its responsibility for the defect in your car and reimburse you.

    Conclusion
    The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The consumers who complain the loudest get reimbursed under secret warranties. The good customer who goes away quietly gets ripped off. Until auto companies wake up and realize that consumer protection is good business, consumers have to be aggressive or they will wind up paying for an auto company's mistake. Since billions of dollars in repairs are covered by secret warranties, the total benefit to consumers in exercising their rights is enormous.


    Secret warranties are a multi-billion consumer abuse. Every auto company makes mistakes in building cars. Whether they are design defects that affect every car or whether they are manufacturing defects which affect only some cars, they must be repaired. The only question is who pays for the manufacturers' mistakes, the manufacturer or the consumer. Although the auto manufacturer often establishes a secret warranty to pay for the repair, all too often it is the consumer who pays for the manufacturer's mistake because the consumer never finds out about the secret warranty. That's wrong and the Center for Auto Safety wants to change it.

    In a 1987 report the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) created national headlines by identifying 10 exemplary secret warranties covering 30 million vehicles and $3 billion in repair costs. Yet this is but the tip of the iceberg for we estimate that at any one time over 500 secret warranties exist for all auto companies. According to a Toyota whistleblower who provided a complete list in May 1988, Toyota alone had 41 secret warranties at that time.

    By exposing secret warranties, CAS forces manufacturers to pay for their mistakes and creates a strong incentive for them to build better cars in the future. once secret warranties are disclosed, consumers will save hundreds, if not thousands, in repair bills on their personal cars. Spurred on by CAS exposes, state legislatures are moving to pass secret warranty disclosure laws that will protect consumers. Until then, consumers must rely on the strategies suggested in our book, Little Secrets of the Auto Industry, to discover and use secret warranties to pay for repairs in their vehicles.

    What is a secret warranty?
    Auto companies hate the term secret warranties. They call them policy adjustments, good will programs, service campaigns or extended warranties . But whatever they are called, they are a longstanding industry practice. When a car company has a major defect that occurs after its written warranty expires, it establishes an adjustment policy to pay for repairs rather than deal with many thousands, if not millions, of complaints on a case by case basis. But the auto company communicates the policy only to regional offices and not even always to its dealers. The auto manufacturers never notify the consumer; so only the consumer who complains loudly enough gets covered by the secret warranty. Other consumers end up bearing the costs of the manufacturer's mistakes.

    Examples of Secret Warranties
    CAS has documented case after case of secret warranties since our founding in 1970. one of the first and most famous was Ford's J-67 Limited Service Program which covered rust on 12 million 1969-72 cars and trucks. In this case a bulletin which went out only to Ford regional offices stated, "This is a limited service program without dealership notification and should be administered on an individual complaint basis." Under this program, Ford would pay up to 100% to repair rust and paint damage on its vehicles even if it cost over a $1000.

    CAS has uncovered secret warranties on all auto companies with little differences between them. A 1972 Mazda secret warranty bulletin doubled the coverage for rotary engine damage but cautioned, "Since this is a temporary program which may be terminated at [any] time, owners are not to be informed of the extended coverage." Honda had secret warranties on head gaskets and rusting fenders in the mid-1970's; Chrysler had rusting fenders on Volares and Aspens in the late 1970's; GM had the transmission secret warranty caused by a ban on sperm whale oil as a lubricant; Peugeot and Subaru both covered defective head gaskets; and VW covered valve stem seals.

    Secret warranties soared after 1980 when the federal government dropped all efforts to ban them. GM had a 5 year/50,000 mile secret warranty covering repair of defective rack and pinion power steering systems on all 16 million of its 1981-88 front wheel drive cars. Toyota covered pulsating brakes on its 1983-86 Camry in a $100 million secret warranty. Ford never told owners of its 1985-92 F-series pickups that America's most popular truck had peeling paint because Ford skipped the primer layer. According to Nissan documents provided to CAS by a whistleblower in 1990, Nissan had at one time up to 48 secret warranties covering various cars and trucks.

    There is no doubt that auto manufactur
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    If you live in California you can contact a lawyer that deals with Product liability. I think it's against the rules on this site to mention the law firm however it is on the Saturn-Gm Outlook and Arcadia lemons page on Facebook. The law firm gave me permission to mention this firm that is located in San Francisco. I recently contacted them and gave them a wealth of information but unfortunately I don't live in California and the laws don't apply to me. However, they said by all the information on our car I provided them we definitively had a case if we lived in CA. I hope those in California can receive some justice and help with GM. The law in CA is not only Lemon Law but breach of warranty of mercantability. This only applies to certain States. It allows a vehicle owner a repurchase if the vehicle has so many problems that it does not meet the legal standard for ordinary goods of this type.If you go to the Facebook page and scroll down there is a story of a man that lives in California that through the Better Business Bureau and due to the laws that apply GM bought his 2007 Saturn Outlook back, no money out of pocket as he was represented by the BBB. Good luck to those that this law applies to, I hope it's helpful information in this unfortunate, injustice problem we are all facing.
  • Tobster1Tobster1 Member Posts: 12
    I received an email with the following post in it for the message board but now the post is removed or gone. Not sure why. It was post #401. The person mentioned a 20/20 investigation and frankly I am shocked it has not been proposed sooner. I had bought a 2007 new Saturn Outlook. A few months after owning it when it was raining it poured water onto my feet. The dealer kept trying to fix the "leaky" sunroof, said there was a repair for the sunroof, but it never stopped. Then one day my power steering started to fail in the rain. It was dangerous. To make a long story short I filed for lemon law, was fought by GM, they gave me alot of BS for a few months of trying to fix or working with me etc. In the end we went to mediation and I fought them, yes, their big scary corporate lawyer who does this every day all over the country (you know fights the small guy). He was polished and quick witted but in the end the mediator saw through it and awarded me. They had to take the car back and give me back every penny. Which is all I was asking for. Take back your lemon. I still get updates on this forum and it makes me sad to see that all of you are still going through the same problems car after car. If you can get rid of it and play hardball right back with GM. Stay in there it can be done.

    #401 Re: Leaky Sunroof - 07 Saturn Outlook [thegumbogirl] by nancy1960 Jun 16, 2012 (11:32 am)
    I think this is such an injustice to what is happening to so many owners of Saturn Outlook, Buick Enclave and GMC Arcadia. With the help of all those affected by these water leaks with no fix in sight regardless of repairs we need to have a large voice against GM. We can only exchange certain info on this site (?) and I don't want to violate the rules. I would would like to contact 20/20 Investig...
    View/reply at: Re: Leaky Sunroof - 07 Saturn Outlook [thegumbogirl]
  • bubbles56bubbles56 Shreveport LAMember Posts: 7
    I just Googled "Leaky Sunroof cars" and along with dozens of websites complaining about the 2007 and 2008 Enclaves, Acadia's and Outlooks, there were several UTube sights that show how to fix a leaky sunroof. IT might be a quick fix until you get a lawyer to fight GM. I still think sending emails to all the Large News Companies and local news stations, in addition to a letter to your Attorney General and filing with the BBB is the only way to get a class action law suit started and won. Nancy1960 has some fantastic information on the secret warranties. I was able to get my Sunroof fixed at their cost the third time it went in. I made sure it didn't leak for a month before trading it in and getting rid of that headache. I am still getting the word out there about these known design flaws with these vehicles.
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    Hello Tobster~ The post was removed by Edmunds because I suggested a site that we could go to with the hopes of organizing as a group to proceed with 20/20 regarding Secret Warranties/water leaks with no solution in sight regardless of multiple repairs. I understand Edmunds position and did not intend to violate their rules. I'm grateful for Edmunds, I have gotten a great education here and learned I'm not alone with the leaks. Congratulations on your victory!!
  • wowelshwowelsh Member Posts: 1
    How in the world does one find/unclog the drain tubes on the 2008 Saturn Outlook that are causing all of these problems? We are having the laundry list of water related problems that everyone else has mentioned, with our (purchased new) Outlook. I was searching online hoping to find a tutorial or walk-through on how to unclog the drain lines, since that seems to be a way to prevent further issues. We (I use the term loosely, meaning my husband) would love to know how to take care of this ourselves, as hubby is a very handy guy when it comes to cars, and does almost all of our repairs. I've only been able to find one reference to unclogging saturn drain tubes and it doesn't apply to the outlook. TY in advance for any help!
  • pacamry1pacamry1 Member Posts: 6
    edited June 2012
    I have had my 08 Outlook in to the dealer six times. Have been through the tube extensions and all the Service Bulletin fixes. The Chevy service manager says the problem can't be fixed, and it's GOING to leak. He is a former service manager for Saturn when they were in business and knows all about the problem. I will have to take it in every couple months to get the drainage tubes cleaned out. This problem is NOT fixable and my car has a permanent musty smell. I have no recourse - frustrating!
  • gmcustsvcgmcustsvc Member Posts: 4,252
    pacamry1,
    Thank you for taking the time to post your concerns. Can you please email me directly with your VIN, current mileage, and involved dealer? I apologize for your frustrations. Have you spoke with Customer Assistance? I look forward to hearing from you.
    Christina
    GM Customer Service
  • grafin_lupusgrafin_lupus Member Posts: 7
    edited July 2012
    I bought a 2008 Outlook certified used in Sept. 2011 from a dealership with less than 34000 miles on it. Now the trough or channel in front inside where the sunroof is mounted is filling with water. It overflows into the headliner, runs down the windshield and drips in to the dashboard and floor. The dealership offer to leak test it for $105. I see there is a bulletin for a VIN range that my vehicle does not fall within. The repair is for replacment of drain tubes. Other forums have owners complaining that the fix doesn't work. NHTSA has 16 cases of this for just this model year. I hate to pay for a problem caused by poor engineering. Not fair for a known problem. What can be done for me?
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    You should not have to pay a dime!! From my extensive research this has happened to cars that VIN #'s are NOT included. This is a huge productive flaw that GM is VERY aware of. Unfortunately, because there has been no Class Action YET to address these horrific issues these cars are being traded in with existing water leak issues which falls on the next the consumer with devastating results to say the least. This problems in my opinion fall under the "Secret Warranties."

    Call GM!! Good luck to you and stay strong!! Research as much as you can before talking to GM and don't let them tell you that you have to keep those drains clean.

    If you live in California, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia or Wisconsin you have added protection.

    States with Secret Warranty protection:
    In order to protect consumers from undisclosed defects, five states (California, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia, and Wisconsin) have enacted secret warranty laws and other states are considering secret warranty legislation.

    Uncovering Secret Warranties:
    Secret warranties are a multi-billion consumer abuse. Every auto company makes mistakes in building cars. Whether they are design defects that affect every car or whether they are manufacturing defects which affect only some cars, they must be repaired. The only question is who pays for the manufacturers' mistakes, the manufacturer or the consumer. Although the auto manufacturer often establishes a secret warranty to pay for the repair, all too often it is the consumer who pays for the manufacturer's mistake because the consumer never finds out about the secret warranty. That's wrong and the Center for Auto Safety wants to change it.

    In a 1987 report the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) created national headlines by identifying 10 exemplary secret warranties covering 30 million vehicles and $3 billion in repair costs. Yet this is but the tip of the iceberg for we estimate that at any one time over 500 secret warranties exist for all auto companies. According to a Toyota whistleblower who provided a complete list in May 1988, Toyota alone had 41 secret warranties at that time.

    By exposing secret warranties, CAS forces manufacturers to pay for their mistakes and creates a strong incentive for them to build better cars in the future. once secret warranties are disclosed, consumers will save hundreds, if not thousands, in repair bills on their personal cars. Spurred on by CAS exposes, state legislatures are moving to pass secret warranty disclosure laws that will protect consumers. Until then, consumers must rely on the strategies suggested in our book, Little Secrets of the Auto Industry, to discover and use secret warranties to pay for repairs in their vehicles.

    What is a secret warranty?
    Auto companies hate the term secret warranties. They call them policy adjustments, good will programs, service campaigns or extended warranties . But whatever they are called, they are a longstanding industry practice. When a car company has a major defect that occurs after its written warranty expires, it establishes an adjustment policy to pay for repairs rather than deal with many thousands, if not millions, of complaints on a case by case basis. But the auto company communicates the policy only to regional offices and not even always to its dealers. The auto manufacturers never notify the consumer; so only the consumer who complains loudly enough gets covered by the secret warranty. Other consumers end up bearing the costs of the manufacturer's mistakes.

    Examples of Secret Warranties
    CAS has documented case after case of secret warranties since our founding in 1970. one of the first and most famous was Ford's J-67 Limited Service Program which covered rust on 12 million 1969-72 cars and trucks. In this case a bulletin which went out only to Ford regional offices stated, "This is a limited service program without dealership notification and should be administered on an individual complaint basis." Under this program, Ford would pay up to 100% to repair rust and paint damage on its vehicles even if it cost over a $1000.

    CAS has uncovered secret warranties on all auto companies with little differences between them. A 1972 Mazda secret warranty bulletin doubled the coverage for rotary engine damage but cautioned, "Since this is a temporary program which may be terminated at [any] time, owners are not to be informed of the extended coverage." Honda had secret warranties on head gaskets and rusting fenders in the mid-1970's; Chrysler had rusting fenders on Volares and Aspens in the late 1970's; GM had the transmission secret warranty caused by a ban on sperm whale oil as a lubricant; Peugeot and Subaru both covered defective head gaskets; and VW covered valve stem seals.

    Secret warranties soared after 1980 when the federal government dropped all efforts to ban them. GM had a 5 year/50,000 mile secret warranty covering repair of defective rack and pinion power steering systems on all 16 million of its 1981-88 front wheel drive cars. Toyota covered pulsating brakes on its 1983-86 Camry in a $100 million secret warranty. Ford never told owners of its 1985-92 F-series pickups that America's most popular truck had peeling paint because Ford skipped the primer layer. According to Nissan documents provided to CAS by a whistleblower in 1990, Nissan had at one time up to 48 secret warranties covering various cars and trucks.

    There is no doubt that auto manufacturers presently have many other secret warranties. However, assessing how widespread secret warranty programs are is difficult because these programs, by definition, are not intended for public disclosure. Since CAS began exposing secret warranties more widely in the 1980's, the auto makers having gotten better at keeping them secret. Even CAS can no longer get lists of secret warranties to disclose. one Honda insider told CAS that Honda has only one secret warranty book for each of its regions. The book is chained to a desk. Every page has the region's number superimposed on it so that any photo of a book page would show the region from which it came.

    But it is known that the regulatory climate has been very favorable to the automakers since 1980. Furthermore, secret warranties are viewed by the automakers as an effective tool to maintain good customer relations. Loyal customers and customers that complain loudly and persistently are rewarded. Other consumers get saddled with repair costs caused by the manufacturers' mistakes.

    No Uniform Law Requires Secret Warranty Disclosure
    No federal law requires auto companies to disclose secret warranties. In the late 1970's, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) sought to litigate individual secret warranties against each auto company beginning with piston scuffing and cracked blocks in 1976-78 Fords. The FTC settled its case by requiring Ford to notify and directly compensate owners according to the secret warranty policy and to notify all future
  • grafin_lupusgrafin_lupus Member Posts: 7
    Thank you for your encouragement and information. I have an appointment at a different dealership than the one that gave me the outrageous quote. They have serviced my husband's car there and say they will try to "help me out". I did call GM customer assistance and got a case #. I will try to keep this forum posted as to status of this case.
  • dompdomp Member Posts: 24
    Any luck finding any info on clearing the drain tubes? If it's as simple as blowing them out with compressed air periodically, I'd do it myself.
  • grafin_lupusgrafin_lupus Member Posts: 7
    Blowing them out with compressed air is exactly what I did. Worked fine but its too bad that the design is so poor that this is necessary. In a heavy downpour they may still not drain fast enough.
  • integrityplzintegrityplz Member Posts: 12
    Yep but unfortunately gm doesn't want to issue a recall for this or headlight problems or transmission or any other known problems for a lot of people I guess they just don't believe in standing behind their products integrity gains trust and business, just sayin i am with u all on these problems and all they say is sorry actions speak louder than words. :mad: :sick: :confuse:
  • integrityplzintegrityplz Member Posts: 12
    Just wondering how many of you that gm wanted to reply to actually got help not out of pocket. Do they not see these post numerous problems people are having with these vehicles it is not coincidental gm recall for these and stand behind your products integrity is everything actions speak louder than words :mad: :cry:
  • amyjean01amyjean01 Member Posts: 1
    After taking my 2008 Outlook in twice due to the front sunroof leaking, I got really worried when the BACK moonroof started leaking. After reading many posts on this site I called GM customer service first and got a case number. I then called my service place (GM/Chevy, former Saturn), told them my problem (and that I had contacted GM as I felt this was a faulty vehicle issue) and asked for an appointment to verify where the problem was coming from, and an estimate so I could tell GM. Now I really like our service guys but this was the best service I've had yet. By the time they called me with the estimate, they had already contacted GM, gotten it 100% covered, and were ready to get started. The back moonroof had to be removed, holes in the roof filled (design flaw-if this doesn't get fixed it will keep leaking), then moonroof replaced. This was also causing engine probs due to water dripping on the fuse block. Fixed too. I live in the Pacific Northwest so they have likely had more experience w/ these issues due to the rain, and since it's been fixed we haven't had any monster storms. I'm hoping the next rainy season doesn't cause me any problems since I really love my Saturn. But it's very disappointing to read of all the frustrations and difficulties for others. Hoping this info is helpful and best of luck.
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Member Posts: 1,964
    Thank you for sharing your great news with us, amyjean01! Many more happy miles to you!
    Sarah, GM Customer Service
  • nancy1960nancy1960 Member Posts: 54
    I'm very happy for you amyjean01!! I hope this repair is successful. I too live in the Great Northwest and had the same problems such as a flooded fuse box, and extensive repairs including a new motor to the back latch motor as that was flooded too. Most importantly, they sealed the holes for you!
    I noticed after extensive repairs I continued to have electrical issues with interior lights, temp gauge and radio not going off. Eventually, GM offers a warranty that after much research does not cover water intrusions.
    It's interesting that during the summer months this forum slows down with posts regarding water leaks. We bought our car in June 11' and by Jan 12' it was a lemon and not a safe vehicle.
    You are now aware of the design flaws of GM, please, report your issues with your car to National Highway Traffic Safety admin. on line. This is criminal that GM knows of these flaws and hundreds of consumers lives have been devastated by these known , extensive problems.
    Best of luck to you!!
  • tgracetgrace Member Posts: 4
    I left work yesterday to find the check engine light on in an 07 Outlook XR (warranty expired, 138K km). I turned off ignition and the engine ran on for a good 30 seconds before shutting down. The check engine light remained lit even with keys out of the ignition. I took it to the dealership and just found out the fusebox is completely corroded and needs to be replaced due to a water leak. This vehicle was repaired under recall for the sunroof drainage tube issue. Searching the net, I found that this is a known issue and GM has issued a notice on it.

    I am now lookinig at a major repair bill to replace the fusebox and correct the water leak. Why hasn't a recall for this problem been issued?

    This is a serious health (mold) and safety (electrical malfunctions) issue.

    An unhappy, long time GM customer
  • dompdomp Member Posts: 24
    I had the exact same issue. Only suggestion I have is to make sure you report it to www.nhtsa.gov. Don't think it will help with your current bill, but maybe a recall will be issued helping the next victim, or if it happens again. Customer service at one point offered me some credit towards another GM or some free oil changes, but they didn't follow through on it.
  • gmcustsvcsarahgmcustsvcsarah Member Posts: 1,964
    Good morning tgrace,

    As you're using kilometers as your unit of measure, I'm supposing that you're writing from Canada? If you had wanted to connect with Customer Assistance, GM of Canada can be reached at 800-263-3777 (Hours: M-F 7:30am - 11:30pm, Sat 7:30am - 6:00 EST).

    All the best,
    Sarah
    GM Customer Service
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