By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
less gas burned = fewer tax revenues for highway infrastructure.
So theoretically, the more diesels we buy the worse our roads will get :P
Infrastructure repair is something no one in DC is doing anything about and won't for any foreseeable future no matter who is elected. This is extremely troubling to me and recklessly foolhardy IMO.
I'm not kidding---they are going to have to start building cars like they did in Russia---tough, ugly and ready to roll on the raw tundra---you'll all heard of plenty of shattered alloy wheels I'm sure.
Maybe we need the "urban safari junior land rover diesel SUV" that can take a 6 inch pothole in stride.
I'll say this - I will never buy another car with low profile tires, diesel or not. The decaying roads even around here - and this is one of the better areas of the country - are intolerable with thin tires. I guess giving aid to ungrateful nations (linked with the military-industrial money burning complex), bailing out the FIRE industries without real punishment, keeping insane social welfare policies alive, and giving undeserved breaks to the top few are more important. Soon, Russia will have better bridges and roads than us, too.
We received a 2.5 hour indoctrination on delivery ( sort of a readers digest form of preaching the 550+ page owner's manual). Evidently they send the big technical sales and TDI mechanical guns from Europe to probably all to most dealerships to give sales and technical classes for the TDI's and I would assume the same is true for BMW and MB.
The upshot is mpg is less (US markets) for several variables all operating at once. One is the ADD BLUE is on a more consumptive cycle. The burn off cycles are on a higher RPM level, longer AND more frequent. Of course, the emissions controls are actually set on more mpg consumptive cycles than European cycles. For whatever reasons, the EPA is of the mind that more consumptive cycles are better than less consumptive cycles.
While these are "estimates", add blue is app minus - 4 mpg hit. The higher burn off settings consume another - 2 mpg hit. USA/EPA "software mappings" bleed off torque and hp in addition to another MINUS -2 to -4 mpg.
So I do not know how the cumulative MINUS - 8 (to -10 mpg) mpg relates to what you have been reading. BUT naturally, another 8 mpg WOULD put me (aka US market) closer to 44 to 39 mpg. Perhaps (STRICTLY my SWAG) a sub 5,000 # (4974#'s) that gets 44 to 39 mpg is upsetting to the US systems. There are literally some LIGHT economy cars that do not get this type of mpg, yet still are CALLED economy cars !! ?? Let me stress the VW Touareg's TDI EPA ratings are 19 C /28 H mpg.
Germans are not immune. The BMW 328i was supposed to get 36 mpg Highway with the automatic. It was spot checked by the EPA and guess what - it is now rated 33 mpg highway. The manual stayed the same at 34 mpg. Of course there is no incentive to "fudge" the numbers on the stick because they sell fewer and they want to show that the more expensive transmission is superior. This is part of the reason it is always easy to beat the EPA numbers with a stick shift.
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/20/bmw-forced-to-lower-2012-3-series-auto-fuel-e- conomy-to-33-mpg/
Anyway the diesel just may not be conducive to the EPA testing procedures.
Actually they are. Diesel have historically come out better when you factor in the real world results, such as on www.fueleconomy.gov . The fact they normally beat EPA postings, I would think over the longer term, works in diesels' favor. I also tend to think the real truths are in the back stories.
I also would have seriously considered a manual shift VW Touareg (if it had been a US market option) . I just do not know if it would be a normal 6 speed M/T or a 7 or 8 speed. The MPG ( and other) RANGE (S) would have certainly been wider than the 8 speed A/T. Diesels give a real spanking with or without the choke offs.
To address the gasser EPA controversy, OEM's pretty much have had to" buck up "so to speak gassers. This is in interesting contrast to having to choke off TDI's ranges for hp, torque and MPG.
So in the 3 series case, the 2011's 335 D posts 425 # ft with EPA H 36 mpg vs the 2012 328 I 's 255 # ft with EPA H of 34, for 67% better torque. To add insult to injury, the 34 mpg is with a manual transmission and the turbo diesel is with an A/T. This is now AFTER BMW said the gasser spanked the diesels mpg figures !! :sick: :lemon:
So I think we are on the same page.
regarding the lower-efficiency/lower-mpg mandated/programmed into modern USA TDIs, that is one reason I traded for a gasser....
some day for demonstration purposes, maybe someone in the off-road crowd will mod a 2-reg tdi for "offroad use" with a keyboard and a hacksaw, making a 40 mpg offroad rock-crawler.
Many more young people travel to Europe now than when I was in my youth. They rent these high mileage cars and have to wonder why they are not sold here. Maybe the younger generation will shake out the cobwebs in the government agencies that are keeping US addicted to large amounts of fossil fuel.
My favorite would be the Audi A4 allroad quattro 2.0 TDI quattro. What's not to like with 45 MPG out on the highway from a vehicle that will take you over most bad road, mud and snow? Plus handle like a sports sedan.
I'd pick the TDI for highway jaunts, the hybrid for the city. Until we get a start/stop function for the TDI, at least.
The Prius is a formidable competitor to any TDI, like it or not.
I remember when 80s diesels used to have the back side covered with soot. Perhaps the out-of-tune ones.
Around here you never see VWs so that's not an issue. Thank goodness all the old GM diesels died an early death or we'd have a black Buick haze all over.
I've never seen smoke or smelled any from any diesel passenger car made after the year 2000 and maybe even earlier.
But also along the lines of your question: I understand that there used to be no emissions controls for offroad/CONSTRUCTION equipment in USA but I think that too has changed recently.
Btw, i should have capitalized earlier title ; I really did mean Turing not touring with regard to the Tou-a-reg TDI's engine programming.
btw, i hear one can get into a Volt for under $30k now.
A Volt (or Ampera) is something i would rather much rather try than a new TDI (been there done that x 4
So to answer the forum headline question, what it would take for me to buy another diesel is for GM to stop selling the Volt !
Actually, it's not just diesels and old cars causing the massive pollution--it's burning tires for fuel (!!!), wood burning, garbage burning and also the city's geography of course.
you know, what happens in a failed state.
KABUL
LOS ANGELES
At the same time, the very same governments spreads its half truths about global hostilities and so called foreign dependence on oil, when they are the very ones' creating global hostilities and all but MANDATING foreign dependence on, oil, etc. Then, in the same efforts, exclude cars that actually GET better fuel mileage ! Indeed some would say the real purposes in Afghanistan are to get a hold on rare earth metals critical in manufacture of so called ((disingenuously and ironically) earth friendly cars, such as Prius and Volt, and to secure the illegal drug pipelines (a sort of vertical integration) from growth to retail), both near and dear to liberal agenda's. The truth is neither 50 mpg choice, hybrid or diesel is the enemy, as they make it out to be. The whole task here is not to be WEDDED to one solution, aka RUG/PUG. Even that is subject to lies and damned lies, i.e., ethanol.
They also fail to acknowledge that hybrids only provide a 20% emissions and mpg advantage over RUG, only because it has been dial in or allows it to be shut off to less used by the hybrid. There is really no rocket science in that concept. Now if they want to pay extra for that privilege, why so be it. Indeed hybrids can be dialed in to make a V6 engine perform more like a high performance V8's, ala VW Touareg Hybrid. One can not fail to note diesel hybrid locomotive engines which pull millions of #'s. Again electric motor technology has been around for literally generations, if not 100's of years.
Indeed in CA Plug in electric is the RICH PERSON'S choice. So for example per KWH is .29 cents. This is not counting the penalties for over baselines' use.
So for another example, those very same governments have been trying to suppress for literally generations that we are beyond the middle east when it comes to coal, natural gas, nuclear power, and are well endowed with oil. We can easily set our sights on (whatever or even at 100%) say 30 percent of the commercial and passenger vehicle fleets and in effect foreign dependence on oil would dry up literally as fast as the implementation. We are net exporters NOW !!!!
Whether this or that car is allowed into the USA makes little difference to the equation of need vs. supply.
No amount of conservation can get us out of oil dependence---not even close.
Didn't Al Gore's kid break 100 mph? LOL
Only about a mile on the town end of my shopping sprint is city streets
You're in the minority. Cities are sprawling and more and more people sit in traffic. That's why I'd like to see TDis with Start-Stop tech. They exist in Europe already.
And I like being in the minority at the outer edges of the suburbs. If they do adopt stop-start tech, I hope they do a better application than GMC did with their lame hybrid. Every time you slowed down to go around a corner the engine would stop and then restart at quarter throttle causing wheel spin. Having the ability to disengage the S/S would be a must. I could not see any real savings in gas. The engine would start up at long stops to keep the AC cooling. Just more crap to fail as far as I am concerned.
Speaking of diesels, just filled today, 546 miles @ 10.6 gals for a 50 mpg tank. No real effort other than not to run into anybody during rush hour traffic and kept it under 90 mph when there is less traffic. I even run the A/C to make sure the seals stay supple. :shades:
So for example a Prius 8 MY's later makes sense, but not in the context of a Civic, Corolla, etc. So what do you do? You make those seem and be more costly. They actually make even less sense against a turbo diesel Civic, Corolla, etc. So in that sense they have dropped those diesels from the equation so you in theory can no longer come to that conclusion. :sick: :lemon:
I have really come to the perspective that diesels (at whatever ones comparisons one wishes to make, like models of course) make even more sense for our roads than for European ones. First off we put in more average per year mileages, (67% more 9,000 European vs 12,000 to 15,000 miles USA) )we make more car trips, the scales are usually way different (US being a larger scale) and speed limits are lower (better mpg structurally) While admittedly a minority view, I have come to see 50 mpg/ 03 Jetta TDI/40 mpg 09 Jetta TDI/30 mpg Touareg TDI as way below potential and vigorish to the EPA, et al., mandating more consumptive mpg. Each of those has the no brainer potential to be 55/45/35 mpg. Mandating ethanol for RUG/PUG has to be another mpg abortion. It is a well known fact that 10% ethanol lowers mpg and easily 10-20%. Again not surprisingly it RAISES the cost per mile driven, fuel !! :sick: :lemon:
An easy way to illustrate this graphically is who really needs a whiny VTEC to go 55/65 mph? Not only that that is SOOOO SOCAL and late 70's 80's with those reliving the glory years in the 90's. Sure someone can live out the car magazines fantasy that ZERO to 60 @ 4 seconds is supposed to be the solution to world peace or whatever blather is being espoused nowadays
While Obama, POTUS might have gotten gas (no pun intended) for pandering to alternative energy sources, one being algae diesel sources (he really does NOT intend for it to grow or become viable) he is spot ON about this issue. (hey nobody can be absolutely always wrong?) Another is also spot on and that is natural gas as a mainstream/stay fuel, aka Honda Civic Nat Gas 35/38 mpg RUG equivalent. Cost per gal (nat gas equivalent) is EXTREMELY low.
..."There are forces unseen that have managed to keep diesel vehicles at a low level. You want one you pay the extra upfront cost. Which is fine with me."...
Indeed that has been true for me 3 separate times. If I am lucky or don't get bored in the process, these have the potential of being the last vehicles I ever buy. (sounds weird, even to me)
link title
http://www.algalbiomass.org/
US air pollution hits 10-year low, report finds (csmonitor.com)
While the act is credited, the fact of the matter is they screwed up when they exempted diesel fuel when they started to take the lead out of leaded RUG/PUG. sulfur removal should have been specified 40 years ago. This is also true for 30-90 RUG/PUG but as you know those current ppm sulfur figures ARE reality.
Insofar as passenger diesel cars, the current fleet of sanctioned RUG to PUG passenger cars run on FAR ( minimum 200%) dirtier RUG/PUG than ULSD (msg # 5275). So for them to go over and over and over 70's, 80's even 90's passenger diesels is not only counter productive, but misleading. Also it makes no mention of the fact that passenger diesels are an EXTREME MINORITY vs an extreme majority of passenger RUG/PUG vehicles. Even they have benefited from that perspective from 15 ppm ULSD nominally served @ 7 to 10 ppm sulfur. That is akin to talking about 35 plus year old LEADED RUG/PUG. Do we even go over and over and over that? NO !!!! ???? It is sort of modern day asking how well a Prius would do if it ran on LEADED RUG !!!!!
Indeed the analogy is like getting all bent out of shape finding and harping on the problems a hand full of sand causes. Especially when you are talking about the Sahara Desert.
But overall I agree. Modern diesels have no real downside, except slightly higher purchase costs. For SUVs, pickups, and large cars they'd be my preferred choice over hybrid. Mid size and below, I lean towards hybrid, but if availability of diesel car models improved I might reconsider.
VW Touareg actually has a gasser V-6 Turbo hybrid. It in theory, it provides the V-8 kick and is EPA H rated @ 24 mpg vs 23 for a gasser turbo V6 alone. I have read in passing the hybrid turbo V-6 requires PUG. The cost as you would guess is WAY over a V-6 alone. VW has deleted both the V-10 and V-8 offerings.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S