Well a conspiracy is only a conspiracy after proven in a court of law. By constitutional definition, a government (branch, etc) is innocent till proved guilty in a court of law.
No, it was the average just as the TDI was the average. You are wrong again! I have neither a Passat TDI nor Camry Hybrid, so my miles are totally irrelevant on what was posted on www.fuel economy.gov. If you have bones to pick, it is NOT with me. Ignore diesels in City mpg? You are wrong again. I drive a lot in city conditions.
Am I like a diesel salesman? No. You would not buy a diesel from me !
Yes you have demonstrated how honest you are:
YOU said:
..."spend about $4,000 to $4,500 more to fuel up the TDI"... unquote.
when really you pay PLUS $421 for fuel for a Camry hybrid in the 10 year period you assert !! MSG #5484.
Those figures are meant to be personalized so you can put applicable fuel prices and such IN. Will they be exact? No ! witness a 4.15 vs 3.76 price of RUG! Are you looking for exact? YES!
Neither explains the $4,000 to $ 4,500 lie to exaggeration. But thanks for the input.
Assuming 15,000 miles per year, $4.15 RUG - 39.6 mpg vs $4.36 ULSD -40.5 mpg = 378.79 gal -370.37 gals
or difference of 8.42 gals more RUG.
@ 4.15 per gal RUG= $34.94 per year more. x 10 years = $349.43 MORE for 10 years.
That is between an 11.45 times to 12.88 times EXAGGERATION !! So which one lied/exaggerated and which one swore to it? :P :lemon:
Nah, Given the math calculations in post # 5495 right before, it will be probably be lost on you both. Neither of you will or can admit you been had by the EPA figures. Keep in mind that even by 3 admissions, I pay more per gal than either of you. Again those EPA figures had NOTHING to do with me. The fact that both of you swallowed it hook line and sinker because of your own biases are again, nothing to do with me.
Based on your assertion that the EPA figures are wrong, what are the correct figures for a Camry Hybrid and a Passat TDI?
There are sites like fuelly with aggregated real world experiences. Would you trust those? Would you trust the numbers Consumer Reports gets in their testing? Who do you trust?
I don't really have a bias. I'd equally consider diesel and gas models for my next car. The main problem at this point is lack of selection.
I'd look at a long-term ownership of 10 years and then decide if I'd be willing to spend about $4,000 to $4,500 more to fuel up the TDI, because of the extra cost of diesel fuel.
Funny how you left out the important intro....
Yes and I listed a source: fueleconomy.gov
It's still there if you'd like to verify it.
Selective reading?
If the MPG is the same (40.5 vs. 40.2 mpg round to zero mpg difference) and diesel costs a bunch more in the USA then you don't need a calculator to know the diesel will cost more to fuel.
Over a 10 year period the advantage accumulates.
Plus the hybrid is a lot quicker but we all know that only matters to you when the hybrid is slower so let's not mention it.
I think one needs to run whatever figures and chose, even if figures are all over the place. I think that is one reason why there are 540 PLUS models and numerous OEM's.
So if you are asking, what is right for you? I haven't a clue.
Indeed, it would appear we agree about the decided lack of selection. Then again, there is the other discussion: what is a fair selection. If you take a market view, it is already proper.
What about neck in neck is @ issue? Even as Passat TDI gets 40.5 real world of 6 and Camry hybrid gets 39.6 real world of 5. YOU were the one doing the 4k to 4.5 k exaggerating for Passat TDI diesel fuel costs. !!??
OK, flip it around: 39.6 Camry Hybrid and (-1) Passat TDI 38.6 mpg ULSD uses 9.81 gals more @ 4.36 per gal 42.78 per year more (15,000 miles) . Based on $4,500 dollars = 105 years !! Now that is a whopper by any measure.
Now are you going to lie or exaggerate once again and say I was the one who was exaggerating about the 4k to 4.5 k extra costs, when it was clearly YOU who made that assertion?
You really need to know when to stop. It is already WAY past tedious. :P
Why get 40.5 mpg on a Passat TDI when you can get 27.5 mpg on a Toyota Camry?
As a side bar, the VW Touareg TDI gets better mpg than the economical Toyota Camry.
You actually wrote those things. Apples to... gosh, not even oranges.
Care to explain how exactly they're not at the very minimum misleading? Especially when a Camry hybrid LE is cheaper than either one, and would be the cheapest of the 3 to fuel up.
You must have drank all the Kool Aid at your VW store.
"I would look at long-term fuel costs, that was specifically stated. "
And I posted the run fuel costs , that was specifically stated in which you made those assertions. Your assertions were clearly not true then and YOUR exaggerated figures figures approach 105 years. Clearly not true after running the numbers, 15,000 per year and mpg and price per gal.
Even when I point our your "spin" you keep doing it. The XLE gets 40.2mpg from the same source.
I checked fitzmall.com for both cars, their cheapest Passat TDI is $29,015, and the same dealer's Toyota franchise has a Camry XLE hybrid for $29,200. So those are comparable in price.
0.3mpg is hardly worth mentioning.
Diesel costs more than gas, so your fuel cost will be higher. How much varies by region because the difference between gas and diesel prices vary.
But no matter where you live the Camry will cost less to fuel up if they get the same mpg and you live in a country where gas is much cheaper than diesel.
Go ahead and personalize the applicable fuel prices and such. Then get back to use with what you find.
For kicks, I did. I came out to $350 less for the Camry hybrid per year.
Over the 10 year period that still amounts to a significant $3500.
I'll point out that I'd have to drive way up to Hungerford drive to get the best diesel price, about 5 miles farther than the cheapest gas, a not so minor inconvenience.
It almost seems like you intentionally try to complicate the matter.
Simple:
* both cars cost about $29k (real world, actual dealer price) * both get around 40mpg * diesel costs more than gas * therefore you will pay more to fuel up the diesel
Yes I am glad you finally get it. What about neck and neck didn't you understand ? Based upon your 4k to 4.5k exaggeration: 105 years !! Clearly even you don't now see it as true. Let us move on, way too much bandwidth on not using a calculator.
Wait a second...that $4K number was directly from EPA numbers. If you don't believe the EPA numbers, fine. But don't call somebody else a liar for using them.
Nor did I call anyone a liar. I ran the real numbers, posted them and they were dismissed totally out of hand in the same vein. So if two chose to believe unseen numbers that gave those results, I had nothing to do with that. I did have something to do with the numbers I posted. This of course led to the conclusions I posted. Finally, he acknowledges both getting (near) 40 mpg. I just used the posted numbers from www.fueleconomy.gov. So he ADAMANTLY disbelieves 40.5 and 39.6. !! ?? YET, magically thinks 40 mpg is sworn testimony/gospel !! ?? WOW!!! You guys are making WAY too much of nothing.
So in effect, with 15,000 miles per year @ 40 mpg, each uses 375 gals. So to post $4,500 dollars MORE, each (diesel)gal will have to be 1.20 per gal more. That would be + 450 per year x 10 years= $4,500. Clearly that was NOT what he said. It was NOT what he meant. He did make a clearly fuzzy reference to diesel costing more per gal than RUG, corollary being where did I assert that diesel costs less??? I did not !! Diesel generally costs more than RUG !! BUT we all know that!? I just put numbers to it.
Yes, AND what part of neck and neck don't YOU understand?
So for example RUG 4.15 per gal. ULSD JUST filled for 4.36 per gal. Difference in price is .21 cents per gal. 375 gals per year is a difference of 78.75 MORE per year.
Fuel cost is not neck and neck - just priced diesel at $4.399 vs. RUG for $3.929.
In this zip code hybrids win by a land slide in fuel costs. Your argument ignores the cost of the fuel. That works when you're talking about premium 93 octane, but the Camry hybrid takes regular.
I'm making a quick chart to show the fuel cost.
I'll even break out the calculator, just for you...
CR tested them head to head and the Camry was significantly quicker and rated higher overall and got better mileage. But sshhhhhh, we're not allowed to talk about cars being slow unless it only applies to the hybrid.
I think direct gas vs diesel comparisons work much better when premium is required
Guess what, I have not a clue what RUG/ULSD is in your area, so if you didn't want to post and run numbers that is not my issue. You should have been more forth coming, as I posted mine (which you disbelieved) It would have been simple to do yours. Obviously the numbers will be different. But like I said I would not mind you paying the difference. However I know YOU would. Again lets move on. Too much band width for lack of you calculating and not adjusting to your situation. The real issue is more of like models ( Passat TDI in comparison with Passat gasser). The system really does not care if you get good fuel mileage or poor. If anything it wants you to get poor fuel mileage !! Better taxes, better profits.
cost Shell mpg miles gallons Prius c $1,107.80 3.929 53.2 15000 281.9548872 Prius $1,171.67 3.929 50.3 15000 298.2107356 Prius V $1,357.95 3.929 43.4 15000 345.6221198 Camry Hybrid XLE $1,466.04 3.929 40.2 15000 373.1343284 Camry Hybrid LE $1,488.26 3.929 39.6 15000 378.7878788 Passat TDI $1,629.26 4.399 40.5 15000 370.3703704 Jetta TDI wagon $1,802.87 4.399 36.6 15000 409.8360656 Golf TDI $1,940.74 4.399 34 15000 441.1764706
I didn't even use the EPA estimate, which ruking says is not real world. I used the real world numbers, which do favor the diesel. So even drinking the diesel kool-aid...
... all hybrids win, all diesels lose.
No exceptions.
If diesel cost plunges to 20 cents more around here, which I would not complain about, the order doesn't really change:
cost Shell mpg miles gallons Prius c $1,107.80 3.929 53.2 15000 281.9548872 Prius $1,171.67 3.929 50.3 15000 298.2107356 Prius V $1,357.95 3.929 43.4 15000 345.6221198 Camry Hybrid XLE $1,466.04 3.929 40.2 15000 373.1343284 Camry Hybrid LE $1,488.26 3.929 39.6 15000 378.7878788 Passat TDI $1,555.19 4.199 40.5 15000 370.3703704 Jetta TDI wagon $1,720.90 4.199 36.6 15000 409.8360656 Golf TDI $1,852.50 4.199 34 15000 441.1764706
So a win ain't gonna happen for diesels, unless, like fintail said, you compare to a car that burns premium.
ZIP CODE is very important when arguing any "cost of fuel" rationale to buy this car over that car.
Not only is zip code important for a gasser vs. diesel comparison on fuel costs, but also for an ELECTRIC car, since cost of a Kw varies greatly around the country.
In my zip code, diesel is always more expensive than premium fuel---which is probably one reason I won't ever trade the MINI in for a TDI in the near future, until that equation changes. I don't have that much to gain even with the TDI's mpg advantage over the Cooper S. (44 vs. 26, but 5-7% higher fuel costs).
Folks- There is more to selecting a vehicle than fuel-cost alone. I could cite several other items which are important to me
QUALITY - Volkswagen has a far better roadfeel and manual xmission feel than any Asian vehicle. That is a FACT. CORROSION WARANTEE - VW has 12-year/unlimited distance. Anyone who lives in Northeast can appreciate this and it is one of the top 3 incentives over other Vehicle makes. PLANNED MAINTENANCE COSTS - A diesel does not even have an ignition-system to maintain! COMFORTABLE SEATS - I have a bad back. I need seats which I can manipulate for long-term comfort. COST OF SPARE PARTS - VW performs poorly in this area. Spare parts for VW are overpriced.
NOTE: Contrary to what advertizements try to tell us... "quality" is not the same thing as "reliability".
Evidently, despite a decided lack of vilification of hybrids and actually positive advertising and positive marketing for a decade and more, not a lot of folks (in arguably the BIGGEST hybrid market in the world) in the US (world wide also) are willing to put (real) money down for hybrids. 2.18 M vehicles/258.8 M (old NHTSA 2009 figures) put the percentage of hybrids @ .0084234. Now keep in mind hybrids can be easily adapted for towing. There is the VW Touareg V6 supercharged gasser hybrid cross over SUV. It posts 380 hp and 428 # ft of torque !!! So if one is a hybrid fan, what is not to like? Now I do understand it is $14,235 more than the TDI (msrp). It does get 1 mpg better than the gasser/NO hybrid. TDI gets 5 mpg @ 21.7% /4 mpg @16.7% better respectively.
Diesels, on the other hand which have experienced heavy vilification and negative advertising and up to BANNING are at 5% or 12.94 M passenger vehicles. So evidently, a lot more folks are willing to put (real) monies down for diesels.
Good points indeed, but I would at least debate VWs reliability record versus its Asian and Japanese competitors.
In the same way that I wouldn't just use MPG as the sole reason to plunk down $25,000 bucks on a car, nor would I disregard some very spotty reliability records.
I had the same hesitation with the MINI, and all the historical reliability data turned out to be completely accurate. All my MINI issues have nothing to do with wear and tear, but rather known factory defects.
That diesel engine is still attached to an entire Volkswagen. :P
Based on your (MINI gasser) experiences (relative's also 3 each for a total of 4), even if it got a turbo diesel, it would take a great leap for me to get one. I would probably look to 1 to 5 years of data to take a chance. All love em when they are good. According to them, they literally fall apart in front of their eyes. :lemon: One has taken the (to me) extraordinary step of selling it (late model) to get "rid" of the problem. He lost his proverbial shirt on the deal, even as MINI's have very high resale values. I guess it was NOT worth the aggravation.
LOL ! What does German car mean? Design studios in Germany, Shanghai, China, Palo Alto, CA Assembled in Mexico, Slovakia, Tenn, AL, Japanese transmission Italian brakes made outside of Italy, Nissan to do MB diesels engines, etc, etc.
Gagrice can't get European delivery of the MB ML 350 for it is made Vance (Tuscaloosa County) Alabama :confuse: and would need to hit the boat literally twice, not counting at least 4 rail trips.
Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
Yeah, that's it.
Variations include: 1) Don’t argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. 2) Never argue with a pig; it just frustrates you and annoys the pig.
I hope you all realize the last 40+ comments have absolutely nothing to do with the title of this thread. I do not see hybrid or gas mentioned in the title. Only what it would take for YOU to buy a diesel car.
For me I have had it with gas cars. They are not as satisfying for me to drive. If they get good mileage they lack the torque to pull the long hills around here. None have enough range to satisfy my wants. And if I was in any way interested in another hybrid I would find a thread that says what would it take for me to buy a hybrid. Why do hybrid and gas fan boys always migrate to the diesel threads. Are you all closet diesel lovers? Or just trying to justify our lame laws in this country that have kept US from having the options available to first World countries? :P :P :P
Comments
Predictable? No it follows a method so you can repeat it.
What is the matter? Hard for you to calculate differences? PREDICTABLE !!
You used the lower of 2 numbers for the Camry hybrid. Naturally.
If there were 2 different numbers for the TDI, you'd use the higher one.
You drive mostly highway miles so you tend to focus on your trip mpg, but most miles are commuter miles in the city or at least suburbs.
Diesels do poorly in the city so you conveniently ignore the city mpg numbers and instead brag about how well you do on your trips.
You're like a diesel car salesman, and about as honest. :P
No, it was the average just as the TDI was the average. You are wrong again! I have neither a Passat TDI nor Camry Hybrid, so my miles are totally irrelevant on what was posted on www.fuel economy.gov. If you have bones to pick, it is NOT with me. Ignore diesels in City mpg? You are wrong again. I drive a lot in city conditions.
Am I like a diesel salesman? No. You would not buy a diesel from me !
Yes you have demonstrated how honest you are:
YOU said:
..."spend about $4,000 to $4,500 more to fuel up the TDI"... unquote.
when really you pay PLUS $421 for fuel for a Camry hybrid in the 10 year period you assert !!
The EPA annual fuel cost for a Passat TDI is $1,800.
Neither explains the $4,000 to $ 4,500 lie to exaggeration. But thanks for the input.
Assuming 15,000 miles per year, $4.15 RUG - 39.6 mpg vs $4.36 ULSD -40.5 mpg = 378.79 gal -370.37 gals
or difference of 8.42 gals more RUG.
@ 4.15 per gal RUG= $34.94 per year more. x 10 years = $349.43 MORE for 10 years.
That is between an 11.45 times to 12.88 times EXAGGERATION !! So which one lied/exaggerated and which one swore to it?
($1,800-$1,400)*10=$4,000
Based on the EPA's number the average driver would save $4,000 on fuel over 10 years by buying a Camry hybrid instead of the Passat TDI.
So how about them diesels ?
There are sites like fuelly with aggregated real world experiences. Would you trust those? Would you trust the numbers Consumer Reports gets in their testing? Who do you trust?
I don't really have a bias. I'd equally consider diesel and gas models for my next car. The main problem at this point is lack of selection.
I'd look at a long-term ownership of 10 years and then decide if I'd be willing to spend about $4,000 to $4,500 more to fuel up the TDI, because of the extra cost of diesel fuel.
Funny how you left out the important intro....
Yes and I listed a source: fueleconomy.gov
It's still there if you'd like to verify it.
Selective reading?
If the MPG is the same (40.5 vs. 40.2 mpg round to zero mpg difference) and diesel costs a bunch more in the USA then you don't need a calculator to know the diesel will cost more to fuel.
Over a 10 year period the advantage accumulates.
Plus the hybrid is a lot quicker but we all know that only matters to you when the hybrid is slower so let's not mention it.
So if you are asking, what is right for you? I haven't a clue.
Indeed, it would appear we agree about the decided lack of selection. Then again, there is the other discussion: what is a fair selection. If you take a market view, it is already proper.
over 10 years, what's 10 times $400-450?
I'm not lying, you just can't read. :P
CR tested them side by side and the Camry hybrid got 1mpg better overall, on cheaper fuel to boot.
He'll find a way to ignore that. The EPA is lying, CR is lying, all LIES I tell ya! LOL
OK, flip it around: 39.6 Camry Hybrid and (-1) Passat TDI 38.6 mpg ULSD uses 9.81 gals more @ 4.36 per gal 42.78 per year more (15,000 miles) . Based on $4,500 dollars = 105 years !! Now that is a whopper by any measure.
Now are you going to lie or exaggerate once again and say I was the one who was exaggerating about the 4k to 4.5 k extra costs, when it was clearly YOU who made that assertion?
You really need to know when to stop. It is already WAY past tedious. :P
No exaggeration occurred.
In fact you owe me an apology for calling me a liar.
VW was up but Audi down.
Still hardly a blip on the charts, though.
The c and V models of the Prius are doing well and didn't seem to cannibalize the middle brother of the family.
As a side bar, the VW Touareg TDI gets better mpg than the economical Toyota Camry.
You actually wrote those things. Apples to... gosh, not even oranges.
Care to explain how exactly they're not at the very minimum misleading? Especially when a Camry hybrid LE is cheaper than either one, and would be the cheapest of the 3 to fuel up.
You must have drank all the Kool Aid at your VW store.
And I posted the run fuel costs , that was specifically stated in which you made those assertions. Your assertions were clearly not true then and YOUR exaggerated figures figures approach 105 years. Clearly not true after running the numbers, 15,000 per year and mpg and price per gal.
No there are an overwhelming majority who do make that decision, which was the point, before you blew it totally out of proportion.
YOU are way too full of kool aid.
Even when I point our your "spin" you keep doing it. The XLE gets 40.2mpg from the same source.
I checked fitzmall.com for both cars, their cheapest Passat TDI is $29,015, and the same dealer's Toyota franchise has a Camry XLE hybrid for $29,200. So those are comparable in price.
0.3mpg is hardly worth mentioning.
Diesel costs more than gas, so your fuel cost will be higher. How much varies by region because the difference between gas and diesel prices vary.
But no matter where you live the Camry will cost less to fuel up if they get the same mpg and you live in a country where gas is much cheaper than diesel.
For kicks, I did. I came out to $350 less for the Camry hybrid per year.
Over the 10 year period that still amounts to a significant $3500.
I'll point out that I'd have to drive way up to Hungerford drive to get the best diesel price, about 5 miles farther than the cheapest gas, a not so minor inconvenience.
It almost seems like you intentionally try to complicate the matter.
Simple:
* both cars cost about $29k (real world, actual dealer price)
* both get around 40mpg
* diesel costs more than gas
* therefore you will pay more to fuel up the diesel
How much more depends on where you live.
It's very simple.
Based upon your 4k to 4.5k exaggeration: 105 years !! Clearly even you don't now see it as true. Let us move on, way too much bandwidth on not using a calculator.
So in effect, with 15,000 miles per year @ 40 mpg, each uses 375 gals. So to post $4,500 dollars MORE, each (diesel)gal will have to be 1.20 per gal more. That would be + 450 per year x 10 years= $4,500. Clearly that was NOT what he said. It was NOT what he meant. He did make a clearly fuzzy reference to diesel costing more per gal than RUG, corollary being where did I assert that diesel costs less??? I did not !! Diesel generally costs more than RUG !! BUT we all know that!? I just put numbers to it.
Even if real world mileage is similar between the two cars, you still have to pay extra for diesel, no?
So for example RUG 4.15 per gal. ULSD JUST filled for 4.36 per gal. Difference in price is .21 cents per gal. 375 gals per year is a difference of 78.75 MORE per year.
I think direct gas vs diesel comparisons work much better when premium is required. Like for the E-class.
MPG is neck and neck.
Fuel cost is not neck and neck - just priced diesel at $4.399 vs. RUG for $3.929.
In this zip code hybrids win by a land slide in fuel costs. Your argument ignores the cost of the fuel. That works when you're talking about premium 93 octane, but the Camry hybrid takes regular.
I'm making a quick chart to show the fuel cost.
I'll even break out the calculator, just for you...
No, I adamantly disbelieve when you compared 40.5 to the non-hybrid Camry's 20 something.
Remember that's what started this converstation.
I think direct gas vs diesel comparisons work much better when premium is required
BINGO!
Prius c $1,107.80 3.929 53.2 15000 281.9548872
Prius $1,171.67 3.929 50.3 15000 298.2107356
Prius V $1,357.95 3.929 43.4 15000 345.6221198
Camry Hybrid XLE $1,466.04 3.929 40.2 15000 373.1343284
Camry Hybrid LE $1,488.26 3.929 39.6 15000 378.7878788
Passat TDI $1,629.26 4.399 40.5 15000 370.3703704
Jetta TDI wagon $1,802.87 4.399 36.6 15000 409.8360656
Golf TDI $1,940.74 4.399 34 15000 441.1764706
I didn't even use the EPA estimate, which ruking says is not real world. I used the real world numbers, which do favor the diesel. So even drinking the diesel kool-aid...
... all hybrids win, all diesels lose.
No exceptions.
If diesel cost plunges to 20 cents more around here, which I would not complain about, the order doesn't really change:
cost Shell mpg miles gallons
Prius c $1,107.80 3.929 53.2 15000 281.9548872
Prius $1,171.67 3.929 50.3 15000 298.2107356
Prius V $1,357.95 3.929 43.4 15000 345.6221198
Camry Hybrid XLE $1,466.04 3.929 40.2 15000 373.1343284
Camry Hybrid LE $1,488.26 3.929 39.6 15000 378.7878788
Passat TDI $1,555.19 4.199 40.5 15000 370.3703704
Jetta TDI wagon $1,720.90 4.199 36.6 15000 409.8360656
Golf TDI $1,852.50 4.199 34 15000 441.1764706
So a win ain't gonna happen for diesels, unless, like fintail said, you compare to a car that burns premium.
I complained that you compared a TDI to a non-hybrid. That's not fair. Would be like comparing a hybrid Camry to a Passat 2.5.
I've calculated real world gas prices with real world reported mileage and diesels get humiliated basically.
You buy a diesel for other reasons. Not to spend less than hybrids on fuel.
cost PRICEYGAS mpg miles gallons
Prius c $1,170.11 4.15 53.2 15000 281.9548872
Prius $1,237.57 4.15 50.3 15000 298.2107356
Prius V $1,434.33 4.15 43.4 15000 345.6221198
Camry Hybrid XLE $1,548.51 4.15 40.2 15000 373.1343284
Camry Hybrid LE $1,571.97 4.15 39.6 15000 378.7878788
Passat TDI $1,614.81 4.36 40.5 15000 370.3703704
Jetta TDI wagon $1,786.89 4.36 36.6 15000 409.8360656
Golf TDI $1,923.53 4.36 34 15000 441.1764706
Still no change in the order.
All hybrids win.
Not only is zip code important for a gasser vs. diesel comparison on fuel costs, but also for an ELECTRIC car, since cost of a Kw varies greatly around the country.
In my zip code, diesel is always more expensive than premium fuel---which is probably one reason I won't ever trade the MINI in for a TDI in the near future, until that equation changes. I don't have that much to gain even with the TDI's mpg advantage over the Cooper S. (44 vs. 26, but 5-7% higher fuel costs).
QUALITY - Volkswagen has a far better roadfeel and manual xmission feel than any Asian vehicle. That is a FACT.
CORROSION WARANTEE - VW has 12-year/unlimited distance. Anyone who lives in Northeast can appreciate this and it is one of the top 3 incentives over other Vehicle makes.
PLANNED MAINTENANCE COSTS - A diesel does not even have an ignition-system to maintain!
COMFORTABLE SEATS - I have a bad back. I need seats which I can manipulate for long-term comfort.
COST OF SPARE PARTS - VW performs poorly in this area. Spare parts for VW are overpriced.
NOTE: Contrary to what advertizements try to tell us... "quality" is not the same thing as "reliability".
..."The United States is the largest hybrid market in the world, with 2.18 million hybrid automobiles and SUVs sold through January 2012,[8][9][13"...
Hybrid Electric Vehicle
Evidently, despite a decided lack of vilification of hybrids and actually positive advertising and positive marketing for a decade and more, not a lot of folks (in arguably the BIGGEST hybrid market in the world) in the US (world wide also) are willing to put (real) money down for hybrids. 2.18 M vehicles/258.8 M (old NHTSA 2009 figures) put the percentage of hybrids @ .0084234. Now keep in mind hybrids can be easily adapted for towing. There is the VW Touareg V6 supercharged gasser hybrid cross over SUV. It posts 380 hp and 428 # ft of torque !!! So if one is a hybrid fan, what is not to like? Now I do understand it is $14,235 more than the TDI (msrp). It does get 1 mpg better than the gasser/NO hybrid. TDI gets 5 mpg @ 21.7% /4 mpg @16.7% better respectively.
Diesels, on the other hand which have experienced heavy vilification and negative advertising and up to BANNING are at 5% or 12.94 M passenger vehicles. So evidently, a lot more folks are willing to put (real) monies down for diesels.
In the same way that I wouldn't just use MPG as the sole reason to plunk down $25,000 bucks on a car, nor would I disregard some very spotty reliability records.
I had the same hesitation with the MINI, and all the historical reliability data turned out to be completely accurate. All my MINI issues have nothing to do with wear and tear, but rather known factory defects.
That diesel engine is still attached to an entire Volkswagen. :P
Gagrice can't get European delivery of the MB ML 350 for it is made Vance (Tuscaloosa County) Alabama :confuse: and would need to hit the boat literally twice, not counting at least 4 rail trips.
Yeah, that's it.
Variations include: 1) Don’t argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. 2) Never argue with a pig; it just frustrates you and annoys the pig.
Party on!!
Okay then, let's call 'em "German Engineered" cars.
For me I have had it with gas cars. They are not as satisfying for me to drive. If they get good mileage they lack the torque to pull the long hills around here. None have enough range to satisfy my wants. And if I was in any way interested in another hybrid I would find a thread that says what would it take for me to buy a hybrid. Why do hybrid and gas fan boys always migrate to the diesel threads. Are you all closet diesel lovers? Or just trying to justify our lame laws in this country that have kept US from having the options available to first World countries? :P :P :P
But if you're interested in bragging rights:
2012 Volkswagen Passat TDI SE Sets World Record for Distance on One Tank of Fuel (Straightline)