Toyota charges more than $40,000 for the Prius, or nearly double the base U.S. sticker price, in part to cover the import duties on the hybrid powertrain and other high-tech components shipped from Japan.
Yet Chinese consumers prepared to spend that kind of money for a car don't get advantages or perks, such as tax breaks, access to less-crowded lanes or easier parking.
At that price it doesn't stand a chance. It'll do Volt volumes, i.e. none.
I think the majority of the folks following this thread have indeed gotten your point. Indeed (from afar, i.e. when applied to the China/Euro markets) you seem to be in (reluctant) agreement with Gagrice's multiple past posts about Prius'es, even as you have seemed to set yourself up in OPPOSITION.
But I think equally so, these are really questions for Toyota Prius (decision making) folks. I have said and probably should not repeat, evidently Toyota (Prius folks) do NOT agree that is a significant market, target, demographic, etc, etc. for the price performance THEY seek/need. Again this is really off topic for the so called "diesel car" thread.
Prius would do well in Europe if it had a diesel+electric powertrain, which was my original point.
I don't see how that would improve the handling dynamic that is important to the Sophisticated EU drivers. The Prius in the UK with leather seats sells for 26,370GBP which is $40,600 US. That puts it in the price range of the Volkswagen Passat Estate Sport 2.0 TDI BlueMotion DSG - £26,845. Which is top of the line and a LOT faster to 60 MPH.
I think also the real unseen or unmentioned "brick wall" so to speak is that in the Passat vs Prius comparison, the MASSIVE redesign for POSSIBLE acceptance of Prius in Euro markets vs the relatively minor tweaks for the Passat for US markets (VW of course does NOT consider these "minor. ) The differences are really exponential !!!
Problem with diesel+hybrid is economic: If each gives you a good mpg boost for $1500-$3000, there's little remaining value spending $4500 for the combo.
I don't think so, Gary, do you have a source? Or at least solid numbers to compare?
The US-spec Camry hybrid basically blew the doors off the Passat TDI DSG in Consumer Reports recently. I expect the Prius and Passat TDI would be similar, neither of them quick.
I do not think the holier than thou Prius hybrid attitude helps at all. When you combine that with the anti diesel sentiment codified in US.CA EPA restrictive diesel regulations, ....
Of course the RUG/PUG and ethanol portions are not going to like it too much when particulate filters will be mandated for RUG/PUG ers and ethanol filters hit the mainstream. We complain now about diesel compliance costs !! :lemon:
I have observed it in many posts ABOUT Prius drivers. But in my personal experience? Nope. I don't remember being irritated by any Prius driver's traffic habits, and there are plenty around here.
Well I think it is a bit silly to absolutely hilarious to think that Prius drivers are given classes to be especially annoying to other than Prius faithful/drivers or adopt those sorts of behaviors, sort of a not so secret, secret handshake thing. You guys should knock this sort of conspiracy talk out, lest one or both hosts' crash in with the conspiracy theory stuff.
I mean come on guys, a Prius driver going 70 mph is the same as any other vehicle going ... 70 mph.
So if I have to spell out the obvious, that has been around for at least 10 years, the best is to move on.
Besides, it is the "non diesel", Prius that is selling 100 per month or 1,200 projected a year with a target of 3,000 (.000067 of projected yearly sales, hope I got the decimal places correct), or MINUS 60% of target in a 18 M yearl auto sales China market. This is a diesel thread anyway.
Indeed. 3 Edmunds members recently bought 'em, per the Chronic Car Buyers thread, and they don't even defend themselves, so I guess they have a sense of humor and take the criticism in stride...
The government may tax diesel more, and CARB certainly puts up obstacles, so I get why people are made about that, but the owners/drives never bugged me.
to think that Prius drivers are given classes to be especially annoying
We laugh but people imply that or outright say that all the time here. Often, in fact.
selling 100 per month or 1,200 projected a year
Only due to big taxes for imported parts that push the price to uncompetitive levels in a land where the government passes unfavorable laws and tax rates.
Geez - where have we heard that before?
Remind you of the CARB/tax complaints we here in this thread, no?
One small point/question, even as your comparison is not even close to being the same. How does the shoe fit on the other foot? Only there is no gasser exclusion, as there were with diesels. Prius as you well know IS a gasser. They do not get gasser tariffs.
To wit, I am TOTALLY oiut of my expertise when it comes to Japan/China import/export duties.
But conversationally, to expect country rules and regulations to be the same would be a false expectation. I would suspect Toyota has no problems selling TLC's in China, especially when they probably do not need Corolla's and Priuses (real obvious here by the posted article) to do so. (if I have to explain this, again lets move on)
All the more reason to keep 1994/1996 TLC's SUV's hopefully into the 30 year mark. They are already @ 16/18 years going on 17/19 years. Maybe past the 30 year mark they might have turbo diesel engines and better drivetrains for conversions for TLC's and get 25 to 40 mpg, by then. Actually IF they made adapters for the Touareg TDI engine and drive train, it is already pretty killer !!! I would want to clock a min of 500,000 miles on the gasser, before I made the conversion.
I wasn't complaining about the low Prius sales in China. To the contrary, I was saying it's the 3rd best selling car in the world, despite China essentially blocking made-in-Japan hybrid sales.
That's China's problem. And 1.2 billion or so residents - less access to affordable fuel sippers.
Just like $4.40 for diesel today when gas costs $3.80 is the problem here. The guv'nt loses because we have to import a bunch more oil. Consumers lose too.
Compact (or mid-size, if you prefer) pickups are so ridiculously practical, yet they have a tiny market segment because they really don't have anything to set them apart. You get the fuel economy of a full-size (or a tiny bit better) without the benefit of the added space.
If closer to 30 mpg were standard fare for this class, the demand for them would be huge.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
That pickup looks very interesting. I never understood why nobody liked small efficient pickups. The old D50 got good mileage and the VW pickup with the diesel was a great little pickup.
I guess the "too much is never enough" mentality reigns supreme on too many vehicle choices.
Subaru tried with the Baja, but it had just 4 seats, an 800 lb payload, and cost $25k when it launched, all without the promised mid-gate. They really botched that from concept to production.
The Outback platform is bigger now, likely more suitable for a small crew cab, but they won't try again. Too bad, since their diesel would be the perfect partner, and they're expanding the plant in Indiana so they'd even have room to build it here.
it's waste of fuel money and resources to make diesel hybrids except for the very largest vehicles (locomotives, or maybe bigrigs that have to drive in stop & go traffic). that's because marginal return on investment is lessened when each additional efficiency-gaining-method is "added", because there is less energy to be recovered by each new method.
*efficiency gains are not additive*. Let's say hybrid-tech recovers/adds-back 21% efficiency and diesel recovers/adds-back 30%, each by itself... Then combining the two technologies does not recover 51% efficiency but instead maybe 37% (estimated).
This doesn't mean there isn't a market for a diesel hybrid prius, just that it's a waste of resources that could be better applied IF the goal was actually saving maximum amount of fuel&energy instead of marketing and making the most $ for the corporation/investors. So if the goal is marketing & increased owner smugness due to increased mpg in their vehicles that already consume minimal fuel, and that results in more profits, then surely some automaker(s) will make a diesel hybrid, bedazzle it, racing stripes, dub wheels, whatever it takes.
I don't think so, Gary, do you have a source? Or at least solid numbers to compare?
You forgot we are comparing UK vehicles. The 2.0L TDI in Europe is not neutered as the one we get. Carpages is the source and they say the Passat wagon hits 0-62 in 8.8 seconds and the top Prius at 10.4 seconds. You can spend 5000 GBP less and get the Toyota Avensis diesel that gets nearly the same MPG as the Prius. The only places the Prius is competitive is where the selection of high mileage vehicles is poor, as in the USA and Japan.
Most stations here have diesel 10 cents less than RUG. Filled the Sequoia today $4.05 at Costco. The station down the street has diesel at $3.93.
By the way I would love to see the link that has the Prius as the 3rd best selling vehicle in the World. Ford sold $585k F series PU trucks and Prius only sold 130k in the largest market the USA. Sounds like sales spin to me. Didn't they build a Prius factory in China. I thought that is where they all came from now.
Yes the Prius is an ok vehicle for round town driving. Mainly for the elderly and the technogeeks. For everyone else that wants good mileage and handling in the same vehicle a German diesel is the only game in the USA.
Probably not for the foreseeable future. The TN plant cannot keep up with orders for the Passat. They are hiring 800 more people to keep up with demand.
If they sold 247k in the first quarter, only 105k were sold here in the USA. So the incentives to buy them in Japan must be very large. You gotta wonder how long Japan can subsidize the Prius before it bankrupts the country.
By the way never heard of Autoevolution sounds like a wannabe blog for greenies.
Also Toyota seems to be counting the sales of all the Prius models ( which are not just variations of the same car) as one. I.e. they are using the total sales of the Prius C, V, and normal Prius, at least this is what I recall swing reported, sort of misleading. This would be like Volkwagen changing the names of the Golf, Jetta, and Passat to the Golf, Golf Jetta and Golf Passat and adding the totals together for bragging right. I now Toyota has done this in the past ( and probably not just Toyota ( by adding the Corolla and Camery names to cars that weren't advertised as such so they could be counted in those models sales figures, but they were at least a little more related than the three Prius models) Just something to watch out for I guess.
The bigger question, are the Japanese subsidizing the hybrids sold outside Japan? There is talk of adding 30% tariff to solar panels coming from China. maybe we should be putting a 30% tariff on all products coming into the country. Bring back jobs to the USA. Giving tax credits to buy foreign made automobiles is a travesty that should be stopped. Even the Volt is more foreign than domestic. Would they have sold 1 million Prius to date if they were not subsidized with tax incentives? Put $7500 on the hood of a Passat TDI and they will have to double the work force in TN to keep up with demand.
Hybrid electrics are efficient while stopped (engine off, battery powers accessories) or slowing (regen).
So while we can't exactly add them up, you will get gains at different times, so I think it would come close to the sum of the gains.
Having said that, diesels could benefit from a simple start-stop system, and there are other ways to exploit KERS, without regen braking and heavy batteries.
I would love to see the link that has the Prius as the 3rd best selling vehicle in the World. Ford sold $585k F series PU trucks and Prius only sold 130k in the largest market the USA. Sounds like sales spin to me. Didn't they build a Prius factory in China. I thought that is where they all came from now.
And don't come say the Prius wagon (V) doesn't count when you're comparing the F "Series", which actually represents about 753 different chassis and powertrain combinations. Talk about a one-market-wonder.
Most Prius parts come from Japan, remember the $40k price tag in China is due to taxes on imported parts.
For everyone else that wants good mileage and handling in the same vehicle a German diesel is the only game in the USA.
What about a Mazda3 SkyActiv?
Their new DI gasser beats EPA estimates real-world, comes in a manual, and is fun to drive. On fueleconomy.gov the real world numbers are shockingly good:
34.9 mpg 5 door manual 36.6 mpg 5 door auto 37.6 mpg sedan auto 40.6 mpg sedan manual
Consistently good for all models/transmissions, all way above EPA estimates.
If I were going to buy a small car today, that would be it. The car is cheaper and regular fuel is much cheaper where I live.
PS Fuelly has 31.9mpg average for the Mazda3 but they don't separate the DI 2l model, which is by far the most fuel efficient. That's an impressive number even with the 2.5l watering it down.
Maxda's CX-9 suv should surely benefit from a turbo diesel engine. 14 mpg is even less than my 18 year old TLC mpg, It weighs app 650#'s more and hardly a crossover suv (aka truck frame!?) . EPA is 17 C/22 H (16/22 on www.fueleconomy.gov). Evidently not many folks care to weight in for both the 2011/2012 MY's. The closest is the 2010 MY (6 vehicles) and the RW is @ 16 mpg.
I think a diesel Mazda3 could potentially beat the regular Prius in mileage.
Also, the SkyActiv 3 goes for as little as $19k. Even with higher diesel costs, we could potentially see a real-world $21k price tag to go with it.
Imagine 50mpg real-world ...
I really think this is NEW news in the context of some of the posts I and Gagrice have made about mpg not being a "REAL" priority, and for a LONG time.
Again not to fan the flames of the highly contentious and artificial hybrid vs "other", the 50 mpg (42/49 2003 Jetta TDI easy gets better mpg than either the 2003/2004 Priuses. Again this was easily a decade ago, aka OLD news. The additional caveat is IF I drove the Priuses like I do the Jetta, mpg would be FAR less. If I drove the Jetta like most folks drive the Priuses, mpg would be far better. Strictly from my op ed I am happy as a clam with the 50 mpg and for me proves over and over again for my driving needs one of best cars @ the time.
Indeed it is only recently that Mazda (US markets) have put serious R/D to getting better mpg. I think it is a good thing. Diesels would go farther in Mazda's better mpg quest. Diesels being the point of this thread.
Comments
Bingo - but why not both? That's what a diesel-electric would be.
Toyota charges more than $40,000 for the Prius, or nearly double the base U.S. sticker price, in part to cover the import duties on the hybrid powertrain and other high-tech components shipped from Japan.
Yet Chinese consumers prepared to spend that kind of money for a car don't get advantages or perks, such as tax breaks, access to less-crowded lanes or easier parking.
At that price it doesn't stand a chance. It'll do Volt volumes, i.e. none.
But I think equally so, these are really questions for Toyota Prius (decision making) folks. I have said and probably should not repeat, evidently Toyota (Prius folks) do NOT agree that is a significant market, target, demographic, etc, etc. for the price performance THEY seek/need. Again this is really off topic for the so called "diesel car" thread.
I don't see how that would improve the handling dynamic that is important to the Sophisticated EU drivers. The Prius in the UK with leather seats sells for 26,370GBP which is $40,600 US. That puts it in the price range of the Volkswagen Passat Estate Sport 2.0 TDI BlueMotion DSG - £26,845. Which is top of the line and a LOT faster to 60 MPH.
I never understood that. There's a place for both. Heck, even combined.
I don't think we're off topic...the idea of a diesel+electric hybrid is worth consideration. Concepts already exist.
I don't think so, Gary, do you have a source? Or at least solid numbers to compare?
The US-spec Camry hybrid basically blew the doors off the Passat TDI DSG in Consumer Reports recently. I expect the Prius and Passat TDI would be similar, neither of them quick.
I do not think the holier than thou Prius hybrid attitude helps at all. When you combine that with the anti diesel sentiment codified in US.CA EPA restrictive diesel regulations, ....
Of course the RUG/PUG and ethanol portions are not going to like it too much when particulate filters will be mandated for RUG/PUG ers and ethanol filters hit the mainstream. We complain now about diesel compliance costs !! :lemon:
Motortrend's Prius hit 60 in 9.7 seconds. Inside Line matched that time, too.
Basically a tie. I don't see how the Passat is a "LOT" faster?
I haven't observed that.
I know that Gary has, and I don't doubt him for a minute.
But still, we should discuss facts. The Passat TDI DSG Estate is no quicker than a Prius.
I'm sure a lighter sedan with a manual would do a little better, but it still would not match the surprisingly quick Camry hybrid.
Which is fine because that's not the point of any of these cars.
With all the speed cams in DC, I probably need a slower car. :sick:
I haven't observed that. "
I have observed it in many posts ABOUT Prius drivers. But in my personal experience? Nope. I don't remember being irritated by any Prius driver's traffic habits, and there are plenty around here.
Seems to be a favorite car/driver to hate.
I mean come on guys, a Prius driver going 70 mph is the same as any other vehicle going ... 70 mph.
So if I have to spell out the obvious, that has been around for at least 10 years, the best is to move on.
Besides, it is the "non diesel", Prius that is selling 100 per month or 1,200 projected a year with a target of 3,000 (.000067 of projected yearly sales, hope I got the decimal places correct), or MINUS 60% of target in a 18 M yearl auto sales China market. This is a diesel thread anyway.
Indeed. 3 Edmunds members recently bought 'em, per the Chronic Car Buyers thread, and they don't even defend themselves, so I guess they have a sense of humor and take the criticism in stride...
The government may tax diesel more, and CARB certainly puts up obstacles, so I get why people are made about that, but the owners/drives never bugged me.
We laugh but people imply that or outright say that all the time here. Often, in fact.
selling 100 per month or 1,200 projected a year
Only due to big taxes for imported parts that push the price to uncompetitive levels in a land where the government passes unfavorable laws and tax rates.
Geez - where have we heard that before?
Remind you of the CARB/tax complaints we here in this thread, no?
That's the pot calling the kettle black.
To wit, I am TOTALLY oiut of my expertise when it comes to Japan/China import/export duties.
But conversationally, to expect country rules and regulations to be the same would be a false expectation. I would suspect Toyota has no problems selling TLC's in China, especially when they probably do not need Corolla's and Priuses (real obvious here by the posted article) to do so. (if I have to explain this, again lets move on)
All the more reason to keep 1994/1996 TLC's SUV's hopefully into the 30 year mark. They are already @ 16/18 years going on 17/19 years. Maybe past the 30 year mark they might have turbo diesel engines and better drivetrains for conversions for TLC's and get 25 to 40 mpg, by then. Actually IF they made adapters for the Touareg TDI engine and drive train, it is already pretty killer !!! I would want to clock a min of 500,000 miles on the gasser, before I made the conversion.
That's China's problem. And 1.2 billion or so residents - less access to affordable fuel sippers.
Just like $4.40 for diesel today when gas costs $3.80 is the problem here. The guv'nt loses because we have to import a bunch more oil. Consumers lose too.
It's very short-sighted. In both cases.
Still.
I keep saying, there are uses for both.
Intriguing, and this is the segment that needs a diesel the most, IMHO.
The US would tax it 25%, though, IIRC. So I doubt it would make it here.
If closer to 30 mpg were standard fare for this class, the demand for them would be huge.
Wonder if VW could build those in TN?
I guess the "too much is never enough" mentality reigns supreme on too many vehicle choices.
The Outback platform is bigger now, likely more suitable for a small crew cab, but they won't try again. Too bad, since their diesel would be the perfect partner, and they're expanding the plant in Indiana so they'd even have room to build it here.
Imagine a little diesel with a V8 rumble. Kinda funny actually.
*efficiency gains are not additive*.
Let's say hybrid-tech recovers/adds-back 21% efficiency and diesel recovers/adds-back 30%, each by itself...
Then combining the two technologies does not recover 51% efficiency but instead maybe 37% (estimated).
This doesn't mean there isn't a market for a diesel hybrid prius, just that it's a waste of resources that could be better applied IF the goal was actually saving maximum amount of fuel&energy instead of marketing and making the most $ for the corporation/investors.
So if the goal is marketing & increased owner smugness due to increased mpg in their vehicles that already consume minimal fuel, and that results in more profits, then surely some automaker(s) will make a diesel hybrid, bedazzle it, racing stripes, dub wheels, whatever it takes.
You forgot we are comparing UK vehicles. The 2.0L TDI in Europe is not neutered as the one we get. Carpages is the source and they say the Passat wagon hits 0-62 in 8.8 seconds and the top Prius at 10.4 seconds. You can spend 5000 GBP less and get the Toyota Avensis diesel that gets nearly the same MPG as the Prius. The only places the Prius is competitive is where the selection of high mileage vehicles is poor, as in the USA and Japan.
By the way I would love to see the link that has the Prius as the 3rd best selling vehicle in the World. Ford sold $585k F series PU trucks and Prius only sold 130k in the largest market the USA. Sounds like sales spin to me. Didn't they build a Prius factory in China. I thought that is where they all came from now.
Yes the Prius is an ok vehicle for round town driving. Mainly for the elderly and the technogeeks. For everyone else that wants good mileage and handling in the same vehicle a German diesel is the only game in the USA.
Toyota Prius: Third Best Selling Car in the World (autoevolution.com)
Don't know if that was the same link that Juice saw or not. Don't see a source.
Probably not for the foreseeable future. The TN plant cannot keep up with orders for the Passat. They are hiring 800 more people to keep up with demand.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/03/volkswagen-vw-chatt- anooga-hiring-800-jobs-/1#.T8g07VL08nM
I know the figures will not be in for a while, but since this is a diesel thread, it will be interesting to know the TDI percentage.
43 mpg and an 84 mpg (going 5 under the speed limits) on a single tank has to be promising !! I wish them continued success !
By the way never heard of Autoevolution sounds like a wannabe blog for greenies.
I'm not sure I agree.
Reason being, each serves a different purpose.
Diesels are efficient while you're moving.
Hybrid electrics are efficient while stopped (engine off, battery powers accessories) or slowing (regen).
So while we can't exactly add them up, you will get gains at different times, so I think it would come close to the sum of the gains.
Having said that, diesels could benefit from a simple start-stop system, and there are other ways to exploit KERS, without regen braking and heavy batteries.
http://www.carpages.co.uk/guide/volkswagen/volkswagen-passat-estate-sport-2.0-td- i-bluemotion-technology.asp
Could be several models, perhaps?
That says 0-62 in 10.0 seconds.
Link: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120529/COPY01/305299975/118- 6
And don't come say the Prius wagon (V) doesn't count when you're comparing the F "Series", which actually represents about 753 different chassis and powertrain combinations. Talk about a one-market-wonder.
Most Prius parts come from Japan, remember the $40k price tag in China is due to taxes on imported parts.
What about a Mazda3 SkyActiv?
Their new DI gasser beats EPA estimates real-world, comes in a manual, and is fun to drive. On fueleconomy.gov the real world numbers are shockingly good:
34.9 mpg 5 door manual
36.6 mpg 5 door auto
37.6 mpg sedan auto
40.6 mpg sedan manual
Consistently good for all models/transmissions, all way above EPA estimates.
If I were going to buy a small car today, that would be it. The car is cheaper and regular fuel is much cheaper where I live.
Jetta AllTrak
Mid-size SUV
Amarok not mentioned.
Anyone else feel like both the Jetta and the SUV should be TDIs?
Mazda goes beyond the engine, to the trans and light weight platforms, to achieve the best mileage.
In all seriousness - I think a diesel Mazda3 could potentially beat the regular Prius in mileage.
Also, the SkyActiv 3 goes for as little as $19k. Even with higher diesel costs, we could potentially see a real-world $21k price tag to go with it.
Imagine 50mpg real-world ... :shades:
Also, the SkyActiv 3 goes for as little as $19k. Even with higher diesel costs, we could potentially see a real-world $21k price tag to go with it.
Imagine 50mpg real-world ...
I really think this is NEW news in the context of some of the posts I and Gagrice have made about mpg not being a "REAL" priority, and for a LONG time.
Again not to fan the flames of the highly contentious and artificial hybrid vs "other", the 50 mpg (42/49 2003 Jetta TDI easy gets better mpg than either the 2003/2004 Priuses. Again this was easily a decade ago, aka OLD news. The additional caveat is IF I drove the Priuses like I do the Jetta, mpg would be FAR less. If I drove the Jetta like most folks drive the Priuses, mpg would be far better. Strictly from my op ed I am happy as a clam with the 50 mpg and for me proves over and over again for my driving needs one of best cars @ the time.
Indeed it is only recently that Mazda (US markets) have put serious R/D to getting better mpg. I think it is a good thing. Diesels would go farther in Mazda's better mpg quest. Diesels being the point of this thread.
The current regular Prius has no incentives (the Plug-in model only gets $2500), no HOV access any more either.
So the SkyActiv D would be competing straight up, fair fight. EVs are out of range in terms of price.
You crack me up. I won't respond.