What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

cdnpinhead

on these boards (and I spent far too much time today reviewing a drama regarding a yacht moving dispute that read much like a soap opera on a board far, far from here) that a single person (or more, in a worse scenario) who chooses to take offense at just about anything can make the whole thing much less pleasant.

That said, I still come here regularly to be abused. Most of the other posters are well worth reading.

gagrice

The prize goes to a diesel.

Cars in December 2012 averaged 33 days to turn. That's an uptick versus both November 2012's 28 days and December 2011's 29 days. As is custom this time of year, we looked only at 2013 inventory in December since dealers have cleared out the majority of 2012s. Here are the fastest and slowest sellers:

December Movers

2013 Mercedes-Benz GL350 Bluetec: 7 days
2013 Subaru XV Crosstrek: 7 days
2013 GMC Acadia: 8 days
2013 Toyota Avalon: 8 days
2013 Toyota Avalon Hybrid: 8 days
2013 Ford F-250 crew cab: 10 days
2013 Ford F-350 crew cab: 10 days
2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid: 10 days
2013 Honda Civic sedan: 10 days
2013 Nissan Pathfinder: 11 days
2013 Subaru Impreza hatchback: 12 days
2013 Audi Q5: 13 days
2013 Mercedes-Benz GL450: 13 days
2013 Scion FR-S: 14 days
2013 Toyota Prius v: 14 days
2013 BMW 328i xDrive sedan: 15 days
2013 Buick Enclave: 15 days
2013 Kia Soul: 15 days

December Losers

2013 Chevrolet Malibu Eco: 135 days
2013 Mazda6: 123 days
2013 Volvo XC90: 99 days
2013 Cadillac Escalade Hybrid: 99 days
2013 Acura ILX Hybrid: 96 days
2013 Smart ForTwo convertible: 91 days
2013 Volkswagen CC: 84 days
2013 Nissan GT-R: 82 days
2013 Kia Forte hatchback: 76 days
2013 Acura ILX: 76 days

habitat1

I wonder how they calculate those "days to turn"?

Specifically, would they credit BMW a "0" for a custom ordered X5d? We have numerous friends who own ML's and GL's that bought off the lot or on incoming pre-speced vehicles, but none of them took the time to custom order a car. I've now personally succeeded in recommending three X5d buyers to custom order and 2 of the 3 took delivery at the Performance Delivery Center. In the meantime, that dealer had the same odd color, overloaded 2012 X5d on their lot from August until they finally sold it in December. But if they didn't have at least one X5d to test drive, they would have had trouble doing numerous custom orders in the meantime.

gagrice

I would like factory delivery. I asked two different MB dealers if I could take delivery at the factory in Alabama. They did not know and would get back to me. That was 6 months ago. It looks like they offered that in the beginning. Just cannot find any current info. If I replace my 2007 Sequoia the ML350 Bluetec is at the top of the list. The problem buying off the lot is getting just what you want and the colors you want. It has to be a heck of a deal to buy off the lot for me. Way below invoice.

ruking1

Going forward, a banner year is predicted for automotive sales, specifically 15 to 15.3 M units. Final sales figures 2012 have not been posted, but they are (way) up from the (fiscal) "crash" years (2008/2009) of barely 10.5 M units. I am swagging 14 to 14.3 M units from a number of indicating articles.

So I think the "pent up demand" & roiling in the markets can be an under represented outlet for factory orders and factory pick up for the oems and models that offer it: specifically diesels. It certainly has created conditions for below invoice for so call more limited demand (diesel) vehicles.

I know that VW has for a long time offered factory orders but not delivery. Habitat 1 seems to indicated BMW offers factory pick up. I seem to remember another poster (fin tail?) doing an AL, MB tour, but he did not take delivery in AL.

ateixeira

That little Subie is also hot, tied for first.

Is the F350 a diesel? If so that's 2 diesels in the top 10.

ILX is overpriced, Acura needs to lower the price plain and simple.

GT-R price crept up and it's no longer fresh. Plus it's not like they sell one every day.

Funny to see a Kia in the top and near the bottom, and they're similar cars.

I think what they do is look at current inventory, then the sales rates, and estimate how many days it would take to sell out of all the current inventory.

gagrice

I notice the Subaru Outback is selling way below invoice around here. They have a lot of 2012 inventory. Must be that flaky CVT. :shades:

habitat1

BMW's Spartanburg "Performance Delivery Center" is the best experience in the industry, period. A night at the Marriott, a half day at the track, followed by off-road course if you're getting an SUV, factory plant tour and as much time as you want to spend in their museum.

Mercedes has nothing that comes close and even Porsche's European Delivery program doesn't get you onto a track for less than an additional $2,500. The BMW program was developed by a former Porsche executive and they really do it right. What is not widely known is that you can custom order any model BMW - including the M's - have them made in Germany, but delivered to Spartanburg for your pick-up and Performance Delivery Center experience.

BMW's program is, IMO, also consistent with their product design and marketing towards "driving enthusiasts". As a friend of mine said after buying his wife a GL (he drives an older 911), her "enthusiasm" was more about how nice the lighted vanity mirrors were. If you put a GL (or MDX) on a track with an X5 (or Cayenne), they would probably tip over trying to keep up. The former do luxury and do-dads very well, so no need to have a track experience that would point out what they don't do quite as well.

fintail

And with both US operations, you can get a plant tour and museum time for free, simply by calling and making a reservation. I have been to both facilities. The BMW operation is much fancier than the relatively utilitarian MB facility in Alabama. I don't know if MB even offers US facility delivery of non-US built cars. I'd rather have Euro delivery for either, no need for a trackday with an SUV, when you can take it out on real roads :shades:

ateixeira

Outback is red hot, just helped Subaru with its 4th consecutive record year for sales.

Rebates are built in to the high prices nowadays, loaded 4 bangers can hit mid $30s!

Depressingly we're beginning to hear rumors that a Forester hybrid may be coming, that would mean no hope for the diesel to come here.

Toyota influence over them, perhaps?

ruking1

..."Toyota influence over them, perhaps?"...

Well no. The US policies are hybrid and ethanol. Why would "puny" Subie want to go up against the GIANT TMC? If SUBIE fails in an unrelated market (diesel) and do not do well in the related market (gasser hybrid) they are not even nimble fish that can dodge the GW sharks (TMC). Indeed SUBIE becomes chum by its own hands.

Evidently S's management believes it is a significant to HUGE risk (diesels) and they do not have the Subie file market that would support that product they would need to sell to B/E let alone make a profit. In other words, there are not enough of people like you. Getting new SUBIE fans evidently is tough sledding, let alone keeping the faithful...faithful.

The news du jour in the financial markets are US market gasoline use is down and exported diesel is UP world wide. Now the US systems are PO'd since the flogging they have done to citizens using RUG/PUG (most of population @ 95%) are driving down TAX revenues from RUG to PUG. This of course is one more excuse for ever increasing RUG/PUG prices even as demand is lessening and getting even .... less. So even as diesel getting more MPG than RUG/PUG users, there are significant improvements (on topic: MPG) to the RUG to PUG products

In an off topic but on topic issue, remember that TMC has been building diesels for easily 27 years (1986 TLC TDI that I am aware of)

Aren't we all glad the administration is making things cheaper with all these "SAVINGS"? :shades: :lemon:

ateixeira

Subaru has had success zigging when the market zags.

Going hybrid puts them up against the big guns directly.

I'm surprised by the decision.

gagrice

If the Outback is selling so well why the big discounts on the 2012 and 2013 here in CA?

I think the Forester Hybrid would be a big mistake and disappointment to people that buy Subarus. They expect their vehicles to go where others fear to tread. The Toyota hybrid SUVs have proven their Wussiness and poor off road capability. Then maybe Subaru engineers are unable to build a diesel that will pass the Eco Nut gauntlet put up by CARB. Happened to Honda.

ateixeira

Dunno, but again, look at the asking price...$35k for a 170hp model.

Totally agree with the 2nd paragraph. Grunty diesel would better fit their image.

ruking1

I wish them wonderful zigging, but really non diesels are off- topic.

gagrice

I was checking out the 2012 Outbacks that show a TMV of $1000 under invoice price. CA has never been Subaru country. They shine in snow country. They sold like hotcakes in Alaska in spite of the WORST Dealership on the Planet.

Most of the local 2012 inventory looks like $26k and above.

ateixeira

People fly from Alaska down to Washington state and then drive them up, dealers are so bad up there. :sick:

The discussion is relevant because Subaru is small, so if they do green light a hybrid that means a diesel is likely not getting CARB certification for sale in the USA.

They don't have the resources to do both.

ateixeira

Wonder if the CVT could not handle all that torque?

Americans seem to be allergic to manual transmissions, so that could have been what sealed its fate:

There are no changes in output - it's still 126kW/235Nm in the 2.5-litre four-cylinder petrol and 108kW/350Nm in the 2.0-litre turbo diesel. The entry-level 2.0-litre petrol four gives 110kW/198Nm. But, like the turbo diesel model, it comes only with a manual gearbox for now.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/news/forester-is-slick-on-any-surface/story-fnejnq7a-1226- 531248795#ixzz2HQ4X4QcX

xwesx

People fly from Alaska down to Washington state and then drive them up

That's just a myth. :P

Frankly, I think that hybrids are and have always been a transitional technology. That market should be left to the big players, and the little guys should focus on implementing the proven technology (and doing it better than the big players).

Diesel is absolutely the way to go. I'd get one tomorrow if they offered it.

xwesx

In place of the low-range feature lost in the manual gearbox versions, a new electronic program - called X-Mode - keeps the wagon in shape on the loose stuff.

Argh! Such a shame that they eliminated low range on that model. I'd LOVE to have a transfer case on my Forester. Heck, I would have paid extra ($1K or more) to have it as an option. *sniffles*

ateixeira

FWIW the videos of that press event with the mega hill descent was incredibly impressive, so X Mode is the real deal. You expect to see Land Rover or Jeep doing that, not Subaru.

Now add a high torque diesel and it would go UP that near vertical hill, too.

ruking1

I read in passing that diesel fuel is $8.20 in Aussieland. RUG to PUG can not be far behind.

stever

Sounds high. This link says it's ~$5.72 a gallon AUD would would convert to around $6 a US gallon. (AIP)

Same site has an interesting graph comparing Petrol Prices & Taxes in OECD Countries down toward the bottom of the page. Looks like taxes are the biggest factor.

ateixeira

US is cheap but look at the quality of our roads.

Then again Brazil is worse, yet fuel costs are higher.

stever

Seen worse. I was even driving in your area last year and didn't lose any parts I couldn't live without after hitting some of your potholes.

gagrice

I doubt the dingle balls hanging from your mirror are that important... hehe

stever

Before I had to get a new windshield the whole mirror would fall off now and then. The replacement mirror holder fixed that issue. Now just the Garmin occasionally falls off the glass when the suction cup finally gives way. Doesn't seem to matter if I've hit a pothole or not recently.

Sounds like the EU is going to crack down a bit and perhaps end diesel subsidies. Maybe our diesel will get cheaper.

European Union has to crack down on diesel (Reuters)

gagrice

Not too bright are they over there??? If it is the legacy vehicles that are causing the pollution it would make sense to continue subsidizing the purchase of new cleaner diesel vehicles. Who in their right mind would get rid of a high mileage diesel and buy a gas hog?

stever

They need another Cash for Clunkers. :shades:

ruking1

Yes less than $6.00 USD seems to be the (current) price/s. The good /bad news are the taxes are used (less transparent or) reality MISUSED and the prices of oils are dictated on the world markets.

gagrice

Maybe once they learn how to recycle. Our C4Cs was an environmental disaster. Dumped 1000s of tons of bad stuff in our landfills.

ruking1

Local D2 prices @ 3.99/3.95. Took on a tad of fuel (33% of tank , normally fill closer to M/T)) in anticipation of the weekend as I had to go by the fuel station and there was an open diesel pump. It posted a tad shy of 30 mpg (29.54) as most of the miles were in commute to heavy stop and go traffics.

Had to get a smog (every other year in CA on 2009 VW TDI). What a total waste of time and resources. ! Easiest fees the smog only station tech and owner gets. Almost everything on a TDI are just visual inspections. In the course of the inspection and conversation, he pressed more than once the mpg on the diesel. First time I said, it is all right. I guess he was not satisfied and asked several more times. When I told him, he looked at me like the old RCA dog of old.

For that matter even on 17 year old gasser SUV (200,000 miles), another total waste of time. Essentially without getting technical, it throws off the same numbers when NEW ! :shades: :lemon:

It would seem the system tolerates price per mile driven fuel as a state secret. Every body thinks I pay more (@ 3.95/3.99) for D2. Needless to say it is in their "logic" when PUG is @ 3.71 and RUG @ 3.51. www.fueleconomy.gov @ 39.6 mpg, 28.5 mpg and 26 mpg which comes out to (per mile driven fuel @ .09975, .. 1302 , 13.5. I just smile and think 30.5% to 35.3% MORE per mile driven fuel ,.... let's move on.... So how about them fiscal cliffs?

fintail

It's the EU - worst collective organization on the planet. Don't expect any logic or accountability. The continent would be better off if a meteor wiped Brussels off the map - once all of the various untouchable ministers and suits were there, of course. Bureaucracy run amok, worse than the gits in DC, the horrible one world ideal of the postwar generation, in small scale practice.

ruking1

Well it does make one wonder :lemon: how the continent comes up with some of the best diesels? :shades: Now if they can just work on LEXUS like reliability. :sick: I am almost totally happy with the three TDI's of mine, but read FAR too many postings where folks are mildly to EXTREMELY unhappy (D2 or gassers) . Indeed, I have had more issues with the Japanese oems. Indeed my friends and one close relative have been MB and BMW rabid FANS, but a lot have switch to the higher end Japanese brands over the years.

fintail

The continent includes Germany - without it, the local automotive scene (not to mention industry and economy as a whole) would be quite dreary.

I wonder, with the facelift E-class coming, if there will be any sweet leases on leftover 2013 diesel models. Still waiting for that diesel C to come around, last time I asked, salesman looked at me like I was speaking in tongues. Same place that told me it was just around the corner - 2 years ago. MBUSA has diesel in almost everything but the C now. Or better yet, maybe an A250 Bluetec.

gagrice

I think MB is building the C in Alabama now. They are planning to build another model as well. Not sure why they have not brought the 4 cylinder diesel to the USA. I would imagine it will have to have urea injection to pass emissions. I would be more than happy with the ML250 Bluetec. Not a rocket, and I don't want a rocket.

fintail

I want a rocket, and I don't like CUVs/SUVs. C-class production at Vance/Tuscaloosa starts in 2014.

Still no E350 Bluetec wagon either, now that I think of it. The urea tech doesn't scare me, seems like an easy DIY job.

ruking1

Diesel passenger/sports cars ALSO come in mild to WILD variants. But then again, you know that. The real issue in US markets is normally only one TDI engine option is offered.

The BlueTec, AdBlue as it is more commonly known is a very straight forward DIY procedure, albeit in the VW T in the trunk area, ringed by the space saver spare tire. This particular one (VW T) seems to be on a 5 gal consumption track in app 15,000 miles.

andres3

Diesel seems to be more volatile than gas for cost.

ruking1

So called normal is a 50 cent spread. It would be easily way cheaper than gasoline if diesel were not exported. I have read in passing that app 20% or more of domestic diesel production IS exported.

gagrice

Diesel has a more winter/summer swing as it is used to heat homes mostly in the North East. CA taxes diesel at a higher rate than RUG or PUG. Right today Premium at Costco is $3.59 and Diesel in El Cajon is $3.55. Best price I have seen for a while on ULSD. Should put a smile on the faces of diesel owners.

ruking1

NorCA has placed itself for ULSD, RUG to PUG (many reasons and factors) in "boutique" categories. Today I filled (at one of the two stations I frequent) @ 3.95 and 3.95. So app a 40 cent spread between N/S for ULSD.

gagrice

Most of our stations are $3.89 for ULSD. So not that far off. You can have stations across the street from each other charging 50 cents or more difference in price of gas. People are creatures of habit. They like a certain station or brand and price is not important.

ruking1

Yes. I am not sure I understand this, other than "free markets", but the range 94 cents for USLD is really $ 3.75 to $4.69. To offer up a comparison, RUG runs a WIDER range 1.70 @ $3.29 to 4.99. So I guess while I am at it PUG runs a range of 1.65, $ 3.54 to $5.19. Again this is in 1 segment in the SJ, CA area.

stever

I'm guilty of not doing this either but checking into a site like GasBuddy is a pretty easy way of getting a feel for prices.

habitat1

In the greater DC area, I wouldn't necessarily classify diesel prices as more "volatile" in the sense that they change more frequently day to day than gas prices. But...there is a wide range of diesel to gas price ratio within a relatively small area. Many stations charge more for ULSD than PUG, with spreads as high as 20-30cents more. But others have it priced under PUG and in the case of an otherwise high price station on Connecticut Ave in DC, ULSD is 25+ cents below PUG and closer to their RUG price. The cheapest BP diesel station I have found in my area (at 3.79) has it 10-15 cents under PUG.

These variations lead me to believe that some stations carry diesel as a specialty or afterthought and price it as high as they think they can, while others carry it as a primary product that price more competitively. I suspect as more diesel passenger vehicles make it into the market, there will be greater competitiveness and consistency in pricing.

gagrice

I switch between Costco and Shell locally. I have seen large differences within a few miles on Shell gas. Shell in San Diego varies from $3.57 to $4.09 today. I paid $3.45 with a car wash at the local Shell. Car wash adds $4.99. Costco AMEX card takes off 3%.

Shell diesel you can pay $3.99 up to $4.67. Even USA Gasoline, the new kids in town, vary from $3.55 to $4.01

ateixeira

For whatever reason I tend to observe gas prices changing more quickly, in both directions, up or down.

Diesel seems to take forever to drop, but it doesn't jump up as quickly either. Could be that they refill their supply less often? Maybe they only feel the prices changes a bit less often?

Just a guess.

gagrice

You can run into trouble with diesel at urban stations. It will get old and stale. I think it loses cetane level. Best to buy from busy station that sells lots of diesel. Same goes for gas especially with ethanol added.

ruking1

Yes, normally the stations that have the fastest tank turn around has the "best" cheaper prices also.