What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

In the VWT hybrid, I am not sure of the technical inner workings under those parameters. However the mpg is actually rated +1 over the full turbo gasser. So for example, with the competitor (Acura MDX) getting 20 mpg (on a recent identical upgrade end destination), while the VWT TDI getting 29 mpg, 21 mpg would be a reasonable SWAG.

In terms of telecommuting, it would be interesting to see what percentage of the work force do exclusively and the percentage of telecommuting really are. I am swaging that both are very very small percentages.

In contrast, years ago the rational for the so called "extended stay" hotels across the US (within taxi and shuttle ride of major airports, 550 in the USA) was a real and projected working business folks (travel warriors) of app 1.5 M.

I am not sure of its specific and over all occupancy rates as a measure of its market and product successes. However markets are projected to dwindle

ruking1

Yes, I believe Gagrice posted the Jeep GC would get the VM turbo diesel (Italiian vendor)

elias

all else being equal, the diesel is always going to get better mpg than the hybrid on the cross-country drive, due to the nature of the power requirements over time and lack of "stop and go" to recapture wasted energy.

the hybrid stuff and batteries becomes something closely resembling DEAD WEIGHT for an extended highway cruise.

flightnurse

It's a 3l V6 turbo Diesel, that makes the same HP and Torque as the MB engine .

stever

I guess I'd be a bit surprised if Chrysler/Fiat was working with Daimler to use a MB engine in the JGC after the "troubles" of a few years back, but if it makes economic sense, why not?

The rumor mill seems to be running in the other direction:

"These are early photos which leaked early courtesy of a nice leak from VW Vortex who also has the full press release, which reveals the 3.0-liter V6.

This engine, we assume, is the same MultiJet II made by VM Motori and sold in Europe in the CRD Jeep. It's a 60-degree, 24-valve turbodiesel, which puts out something like 237 horsepower and 410 lb-ft of torque over there." (Jalopnik)

"Essentially the same turbodiesel engine offered on the Jeep Grand Cherokee overseas, in U.S.-spec the engine will deliver 240 horsepower and 420 pound-feet of torque." (motorauthority.com)

gagrice

Starting with the 2012 model the torque got a good boost.

3.0L BlueTEC turbodiesel V-6 engine

BlueTEC clean diesel technology is the state of the art, with certified ultralow emissions nationwide. The 3.0-liter turbodiesel V-6 in the 2013 ML350 BlueTEC delivers 240 hp, a massive 455 lb-ft of torque, and acceleration as quick as its gasoline counterpart.

gagrice

U.S.-spec the engine will deliver 240 horsepower and 420 pound-feet of torque."

We also get the German 8 speed auto transmission. The EU version that is several years old has the old 5 speed. Likely the same 8 speed transmission used in the Audi, VW and Porsche TDI models.

ruking1

I had read in passing the transmission for the MB ML350 BlueTec is/has been a hybrid CVT. Strangely there has been no word about it.

ZF makes an 8 speed A/T. I have read in passing it is used in some of the higher end BMW larger sedans.

It would be a probable competitor @ some point with the Aisin (Toyota subsidiary) 8 speed A/T that is/has been in the 2011, 2012, 2013 VW Touareg, Audi Q7, and Porsche Cayenne.

BMW X5 35 D has an 6 speed A/T. It is probably a ZF.

ateixeira

However the mpg is actually rated +1 over the full turbo gasser

That's the highway figure.

The city rating is +3 mpg over the gasser. Combined is +2.

Steve is talking about coming to a full stop in traffic (gridlock), so really the city number would apply in that scenario. So +3 in Steve's case.

The engine would shut off and the batteries would take over, at least until they ran out of juice. The regular gasser idles and wastes gas, the hybrid does not.

ateixeira

lack of "stop and go" to recapture wasted energy

That plus simply not idling when you're at a full stop.

If I ran a taxi fleet, I'd probably look at hybrids.

If I ran a long distance delivery company, I'd be looking at diesels.

Each has their place.

gagrice

That is right, I remember researching it. Aisin makes the A/T for Lexus I believe. They have two 8 speeds. One is heavy duty which I would assume is in the TDI models. Not sure how they compare. I see the new Corvette is using the Aisin 8 speed. GM does not engineer much anymore.

ruking1

I think you forgot to say that is your SWAG. Really not real world numbers. Be that as it may I used real world side by side numbers. Additionally be that as it may, if I got the 19 city that is EPA for VW T TDI, I would (swag) either be towing 7,500#'s or something was wrong with the vehicle.

ruking1

Yes, I thing the REAL revolution/s are the upgrades in transmissions: DSG/PTK, 6,7,8, speed A/T.s, use of more 6/7 speed manuals AND lastly WEIGHT, albeit lack there of.

Diesels however much more mpg effective (30% to 50+%) are from the over all perspective just "icing on the cake"(mpg issues ) over all picture. With 95% gassers, I do not, nor ever have look/ed to the US markets becoming like the European markets. (ala 50%+= passenger diesels.) So without a doubt gassers need serious improvement. Diesels can only benefit, even further I might swag.

As for the Aisin 8 speed transmission in the Corvette, thanks for the heads up. As per your post, Aisin does make car/suv versions.

For my .02 cents I am REALLY happy with the CUV version. I have read in passing the torque handling is @ 627 ft #'s of torque. This particular CUV TDI engine puts out 406 # ft of torque.

What it is in the car version, I do not know.

ateixeira

I think you forgot to say that is your SWAG

I used EPA city numbers and cited the source. Don't shoot the messenger.

ruking1

I also used EPA's, as if you haven't noticed. EVERY body realizes what Steve was saying. Where did you get the notion that the real world results shoots the messenger? We have long since understood real world results give you "GAS".

Even at that, the solution is pretty easy. If you don't like or believe the two EPA numbers C/H and the CFE, just look at the RANGES. But like always, you knew that.

So for example, the 2012 VW T TDI says EPA 19 C . The expected range for most drivers 15 to 23 mpg C / 28 H. The expected range for most drivers 23 to 33 mpg H. CFE 22.

So the expected range for most drivers 15 mpg to 33 mpg. ALL passenger cars are rated in this fashion. But... you knew that.

ateixeira

You said I guessed, but I wasn't guessing.

Steve was talking about city driving in gridlock traffic. You can't apply the mileage averages in that instance.

Even if the EPA number is off by a bit on the hybrid, it would be on the non-hybrid gasser too. We should still expect a 3/17 = 18% or so improvement in city mileage over the plain gasser.

Fuelly and fueleconomy.gov only gives us averages, which are watered down. As mentioned above, it's possible a hybrid would do slightly worse on the highway, due to carrying the extra weight. But it should do a lot better in the city.

Diesels for highway drives, hybrids for city drives.

ateixeira

Ok, besides the EPA, the only folks who isolate a city only cycle are Consumer Reports.

I walk home and the Feb issue is here.

Gasser Fusion and hybrid are in the issue.

City mpg for the gasser 1.6T is a miserable 16mpg. Their loop must simulate the city driving I do, slow and congested.

The 2.0T gets 14mpg in their city loop. It's quick, though.

The hybrid? 35 mpg.

More than double!

And it was quicker through the 1/4 mile than the 1.6T to boot.

Per my GPS I've spent 62 hours idling in the last 280 hours of driving, that's zero mpg that whole time unless you have start/stop at least.

It is likely a heavier car would see smaller returns because the battery only has so much capacity, but there would definitely be a notable impact in congested city driving.

stever

Gee, I thought it was a simple question.

If you are stuck in traffic, doing a lot of sitting, will the hybrid be the only propulsion system - no gas usage?

If you are creeping along for a mile at 5mph, will the gas engine kick in on a hybrid?

ateixeira

Passat also had gains, just not as big.

2.5l gasser got 17 mpg city loop, TDI managed a good 26 mpg. Jetta TDI got 25, does the Passat have a more advanced engine?

Camry gasser did 19 mpg, hybrid improved that to 32 mpg. CT got 31.

As expected the highway loop shows the opposite - small gains for the hybrids, bigger gains for the diesel.

But...I'm shopping for a city car right now, so my car hunt focuses more on that city number.

ateixeira

For mild hybrids No, for full hybrids Yes.

Engine kicks in only when the battery is low.

Battery capacity determines how long that is, but some can go for miles on electric only, using no gas.

I still think a diesel with auto start/stop would show worthy improvements.

crkyolfrt

"I still think a diesel with auto start/stop would show worthy improvements."

Decimal place improvements would not offset other potential negative ramifications of starting and stopping a diesel in the winter...as per the reasons I pointed out in an earlier post.

And besides that, a diesel idling uses less fuel than a gas job. The proof is when you measure exhaust gas temps. Fuel is energy. Heat is energy. The higher the heat out the pipe, the more wasted energy.

dudleyr

I also got the Feb issue and was appalled by the numbers for the Fusion. The fastest Fusions (2.0t) is about as fast as the slowest Accord (2.4 I4), while the most efficient Fusion (1.6t) is less efficient than the least efficient Accord (3.5 V-6). BTW Camry V-6 matches Accord V-6 efficiency and Altima I4 beats Accord I4 in efficiency, but is a little slower. Basically Ford is alone at the bottom with their ecoboost engines.

Horrible real world numbers for the Ford. They really gamed the EPA.

gagrice

2013 Volkswagen Crossblue Concept

The CrossBlue runs in zero emissions mode either at the press of a button or automatically. With a fully charged 9.8kWh lithium-ion battery, the CrossBlue can travel a distance of 14 miles in all-electric mode; to achieve optimal driving range, the top speed is reduced from 127 mph to 75 mph. The overall driving range is 661 miles if the 18.5-gallon fuel tank is filled with ultra-low-sulfur diesel fuel.

gagrice

I like the Cashmere Pearl color for mine. With the Nappa Leather in saddle color. This is off roading as it should be....

http://www.jeep.com/en/2014/grand_cherokee/#model=summit&color=cashmere

ruking1

36 mpg (on 18 gals diesel only) is indeed a high bar. It is a mini Touareg of sorts. If I drive at the right rpms and am willing to endure it, I could probably post 935 miles on 26 gals in the Touareg. This one I am thinking would be far easier to post 36 mpg. First off, it LOOKS 500 to 1,000 #s lighter.

ateixeira

That's 62 hours of idling for me, unfortunately.

Maybe I need to move!

ateixeira

The Fusion hybrid did well despite not meeting EPA numbers. It beat the Camry hybrid.

Hopefully prices plunge and I can consider a C-Max.

ateixeira

That looks really promising. Could actually be a 2 in 1 vehicle for me.

Hope it's not $50 grand equipped, and the production model is not watered down.

gagrice

It is a mini Touareg of sorts.

It may actually be longer than the Touareg with comfortable seating for 7.

VW killed the Chrysler-built Routan minivan just the other week and now it looks like they're replacing it with this: a plug-in diesel hybrid supersized, seven-seat SUV called the CrossBlue.

The CrossBlue Concept is a plug-in hybrid, only instead of having a gasoline engine to support the batteries and two electric motors, there's a TDI diesel engine of indeterminate size (likely a 2.0 liter, but potentially as small as a 1.6). A 190 horsepower diesel powers the front wheels, but when requested there's a 54 horse electric motor to support the front wheels and a second 114 horse electric motor to drive the rear wheels. This would be with 305 horsepower and 516 lb-ft. of torque. Claimed 0-60 is 7.2 seconds. VW is imagining 35 mpg for this thing in hybrid mode. For something that looks like a Grand Cherokee that was hit with a sandblaster, that's pretty interesting.

Cross Blue for YOU

gagrice

If it is a plug in hybrid it will qualify for some of our tax dollars incentive. I would not expect it to be much under $40k. It should be less than the more rugged Touareg. Seems like a very practical vehicle.

ruking1

..."That's 62 hours of idling for me, unfortunately.

Maybe I need to move! "...

And miss all that idling and more? Why? You'd have no more angst to throw around.

ruking1

Yes I think for me the "of sorts" is probably the real differential. It would take no brains to offer a Tiquan TDI. The VW Touareg has long fulfilled the higher speed sedan/SUV ( CUX narrow) niche. From a model point of view, there is no real need to duplicate this segment. It has been already, is and continues to be played out with the Audi Q7, Porsche Cayenne, albeit multiple steps of ever increasing luxury, prices and semi customizations.

On the arcane level, it was this lowly VW (Touareg) that saved the Porsche's "purists bacon" when the Porsche management adapted this impure Porsche. I have read in passing the Cayenne model has for a long time posted the most sales and profit for Porsche.

There has for a while been snippets of news of an "inbetweener" CUV. It looks like this might be the manifestation.

gagrice

Brandon's Blog:
Volkswagen announced their foray into the hotly contested midsize SUV market this month with the reveal of the Cross Blue concept. Should it reach production the seven passenger plug-in diesel hybrid would bring VW one step closer to their ultimate goal of complete world domination.

It’s no coincidence the Cross Blue bears more than a passing resemblance to the 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee and is bragging to achieve a projected 89 miles per gallon electric. Regardless of whether or not the concept actually makes it to showrooms VW is using it to make their intentions clear.

qbrozen

Thanks for showing me the wife's next vehicle.

gagrice

It would take no brains to offer a Tiquan TDI.

I think the problem is emissions. They would have to use Adblu to pass CARB with the 2.0L TDI in the heavier Tiguan. And the V6 TDI would be total over kill in the little Tiguan. They are currently sold in Europe with 3 HP ratings for the 2.0L TDI. Probably not worth the expense getting past the diesel haters in EPA/CARB.

Here is another beauty from VW sold with the 2.0L TDI including a BiTurbo version. Ironically it is called the VW California. Have not seen one in CA.

stever

It does look good (the CrossBlue that is; naturally the Vanagon has always looked good. :shades:). Had not hear that VW officially killed the Routan but not really surprised.

ruking1

YOU and I (others also) were longer time contributors to the long since archived "I Hate SUV's, Why Don't You?" thread.

Surprise, surprise this 12% portion of the passenger vehicle fleet market is alive and well !! It has just gotten turbo'ed and diesel'ed. And from the snippets, hybrid'ded. :shades:

ateixeira

I'm interested, too.

I bet it will be less off-road/sturdy than the Touareg, to save weight.

The state of MD offers up to $2000 in incentives, plus whatever Fed incentives are still in place. Could actually be affordable.

Look at the Leaf - you can get one for $20,250 in MD right now.

ruking1

Indeed it is probably more of a "customer resistance"/economies issue. I am sure VW weighs the cost benefits of including TDI's across the model line/s.

gagrice

naturally the Vanagon has always looked good.

Not sure how this stacks up to the last Vanagon sold in the USA. It is front wheel drive and only sold as diesel. That is first I have seen them called the California.

I think VW has made a case for diesel with 20% of their market share.

- Company delivers over twice the volume sold in 2009, best calendar year since 1973 –
- December sales total 44,005 units, a 35.4 percent increase and the best December since 1970 –

• Brand achieves a 35.1 percent increase with 438,133 units delivered and 28 consecutive months of growth
• Chattanooga-built Passat, sold 117,023 units, its best year ever and a 413.7 percent increase versus 2011; 14,462 units in December
• Jetta Sedan sales total 13,102 units in December and 146,478 year-to-date
• 2012 Beetle achieved 3,182 units in December
• Golf up 15.9 percent, Tiguan up 22.1 percent and Touareg up 40.1 percent versus 2011.
• High-mileage, clean diesel TDI models account for 20.6 percent of sales in 2012 and 16.7 percent in December

flightnurse

According to the manufacture's this is where hybrid excel. In the Fusion the gas engine does not kick in until 42 mph with a light foot on the accelerator, toyota on the other hand is 27 mph and has a very toughie accelerator pedal. One of the car mag's editor wrote about his experience in the last gen fusion hybrid how he would creep alone in LA rush hour traffic and how he was able to use elec power only for a great distance.

stever

Thanks, makes sense but have to wonder if there's a gotcha (like what happens if you run the defroster or AC)?

In other news, "Volkswagen is seriously considering bringing its economical Golf GTD hot hatchback to America next year. The diesel-powered Golf is expected to produce as much as 185 horsepower and 280 pound-feet of torque. It should hit speeds of up to 152 mph and boast a 0-62-mph time of around seven seconds." (link)

crkyolfrt

If they do, they should make AWD an option. There are precious few affordable choices in a car, gas or diesel, but especially affordable and/or diesel. The diesel makes AWD's primary negative vice (being a FE penalty) that much easier to take because it helps mitigate the fuel penalty that is always part of the AWD package.

I think Toyota should also AWD their Yaris. Remember the good old days when you could buy an AWD Justy, and the AWD Corolla Wagon, and relatively affordable AWD Camry with few options, stick ..no air and was a great car. Great FE, good performance/handling, incredible visibility and interior room. And could climb a tree if you lathered the bark with snow. It had a LOCKING switch diff lock for true 4 wheel drive. No steering allowed or idiots need apply..

Nowadays we are restricted to the relatively expensive (my opinion) to own long term (200000 miles) Subaru's with their odd engine config exhaust note which always makes them sound like an inline 4 running on 3 cylinders, and then there's the Matrix which is a POOR excuse for an AWD Corolla or Camry replacement. Terrible cars...not deserved to wear the Toyota badge. But of course, FTM Toyota isn't what it once was either so..

Here in Canada we have Chevy Trax showing already..I don't think you guys in the States are getting them. Think of it as a Tracker/Sidekick sized AWD or FWD SUV. Uses the 1.4l turbo out of the Cruze. But again..as soon as you tick off AWD mileage plummets to a measly 30 or mpg (your gal) 36 our gallon. So somehow they have screwed up the gearing or aerodynamics, or something, cuz the Cruze is only a couple hundred pounds lighter, has the obviously lower CoG and probable superior drag co-efficient and of course only FWD, but wow, in that form those relatively heavy cars are getting amazing real world FE. The Trax should be able to do the same at least, less 10 mpg but it's more like a 20 mpg hit
So of course I am alluding to the fact that that too should have the Cruze diesel in it. And we probably will get it eventually..maybe you guys too just a year or two later who knows...but the point is..why do we have to wait so #$%^# long to get these desirable powertrain options that should be all made available at time of intro? by the time they do come out with this stuff, a purchaser who has already been waiting forever for something like it, has moved on..probably into some form of gas SUV and being miffed about it for as long as ownership.

I also believe that VW diesel AWD sales are as good as they are because they are the only ones offering this void...but with a caveat.
Which brings me back to my original point..if they offered this diesel Golf with an AWD option (in base or near base level cars too so a person can afford it) people would clamber over each other to get it. What's not to like? AWD, but with car handling, car (exceptional for an AWD) FE, and driving characteristics of a diesel...torque, not having to stop for fuel but once or twice a month etc..
Many drivers find themselves in an SUV for the AWD, others still for the space but many others out there would much rather enjoy the handling of an (affordable) car.

gagrice

The Golf GTD would be the near perfect runabout, if it was 3 inches higher.

crkyolfrt

If quickness is what you're after..the thing has so much torque that it really should be AWD just for good tracking aggressive launches and to reduce tire wear.
As long as my last post was, that was one of the first points I had intended to make and forgot..

houdini1

Did we ever determine who would produce the diesel engine for the GC?

gagrice

Which brings me back to my original point..if they offered this diesel Golf with an AWD option

It could be US Americans and Canadians are cheapskates. You can buy most any sort of diesel you like in the UK for a price. They have the VW Tiguan 4Motion with the peppy 2.0L TDI for 31k GBP or $49k USD. That includes the latest 7 speed DSG transmission. Would we pay that much for a Tiguan TDI AWD?

fintail

Limeyland price includes tax and fees, I bet a loaded Tiguan TDi wouldn't be too shy of that, on the road, in the US or especially Canuckistan.

It's not a cheapness issue so much of a simple fear of diesel.

stever

A reporter would like to speak to someone who is shopping for a diesel car. If this fits your description and you would like to share your story, please send your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than Monday, January 4, 2013 at 10 a.m. PT/1 p.m. ET.

(Already heard from the PR people that they've had lots of responses to this request, probably from the Twitter feed. I take that as a good sign that more people are shopping diesels).

ateixeira

The Trax will come to the USA as the Buick Encore, starting at $25k.

If you're a GM fan, you might say it is the cheapest small crossover from a premium brand.

If you're not, you might say it's an overpriced Sonic from Korea.

GTD would be fun. Do they have a panoramic moonroof option?