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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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Comments
Back when there was a middle class, almost no diesel cars or even trucks, etc, times have changed indeed :shades:
A Mercedes With Tenure (NY Times)
Now there's a typical old school diesel owner, everything done by calculated logic, even the color. Also, MBs old school clientele.
“Diesel was hard to find in those days,” she said of driving in the late 1970s. “We’d carry an extra couple of gallons in a gas can in the trunk. Today, it’s everywhere.”
Ouch, nearly $2 grand more than a Jetta TDI?
It does have leather, and 17" rims, but that price will make it a tough sell.
They're saying 42mpg highway, which is no better than the Eco model.
What gives?
I don't read the Times much (or the classics boards for that matter).
On old Boise friend of mine recently died and he drove an old MB similar to that one back in the day. He finally sold it in '97 or so and got an Outback; the MB was just too slow. But he had no trouble finding a buyer for it.
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Diesel
When: Early 2013
Chrysler wants more diesels among its larger vehicles. Likewise, Jeep fans—who want both the torque and the long range of a diesel—have been pleading for more diesel choices since the last Grand Cherokee CRD went away. The likely engine candidate is a V-6 that parent company Fiat already uses in Europe, good for 406 lb ft of torque and about 28 mpg when converted for U.S. EPA metrics.
One advantage of using this relatively small, 3.0-liter engine is that it would work in the new Ram 1500, and spy photos have shown testing of a Ram diesel. Since Ford is doing so well with its EcoBoost F-150, it's easy to see the appeal for Chrysler, which could fight back with the only nonheavy-duty diesel in the class and potentially become the mileage king of the category.
Read more: 8 SUVs Worth Waiting For - Popular Mechanics
The other 7 not a chance for my dollars. Watched a u-tube video at Moab Utah. The big shot from Jeep said diesel was highly requested for the Wrangler.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAL-PbKju0Q
If we were able to put all the diesel miles on the 2003 Jetta TDI, that we have across 3 diesels, it would sit @ app 250,000 + miles. After all, 50 mpg is better than 40 mpg and 30 mpg.
But we are liking the newer diesels also !
I agree that it should probably be more than that even.
Let's see how the reviews are. If they've priced it, won't be long before we see those.
Should reduce the risk for early adopters.
Sort of second hand info, but an interesting post nonetheless.
All you need, though, is for one manufacturer to rebel and do it, and get that competitive advantage. Then the rest would have to join in.
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/07/hyundai-los-angeles-times-and-consumer-report- s-in/
Interestingly, Mazda, Subaru, and VW are the only 3 brands where CR's result seems to exceed the EPA's.
That lines up with what we've seen from fuelly on the Mazda3 and Golf TDI, but it appears to apply to the brands and Subaru as well.
All you need, though, is for one manufacturer to rebel and do it, and get that competitive advantage. Then the rest would have to join in."...
To name just one example, VW has been doing the TDI gig for INXS of a decade (actually decades) . Decades later, GM "rebels" with a Cruze TDI ?
Saves me the trouble of even looking, I suppose! Couple that with the FE estimates and the price premium (for both the car and its fuel source) and I'm not sure why anyone would even consider it.
Work trucks need torque. They're driven tons of miles and could lower operating costs, be more durable, etc.
I think the Big 3 are afraid. If you sell a light duty pickup diesel they may no longer sell as many HD pickups, and that could eat in to profits ($8 to $10k per truck by some estimates).
Lost me, too.
I think you should could have said that and made the differentiation up front. Magic mind reading and unicorns are not my thing. I think you have read more than once/ heard me say that a diesel light (light) truck is an absolute no brainer and for many reasons.
To state the obvious, obviously: once it was obvious that you said what you meant, but didn't say before. To state the other obvious thing, most American light trucks have been, are and will remain GASSERS.
I think that applies to diesel passenger vehicles in general. The back drop of course is even as the powers that be press for less RUG/PUG fuel use, they are hurting BIG time from the lack of revenue, they themselves advocate fiercely, albeit indirectly. Keep in mind that RUG/PUG/ D2 prices are at historical highs which punishes the middle class, as an "EVERYMAN" tax. that our current 2nd term Potus has so vociferously claims to defend while he deftly oppresses them with an "everyman" tax.. Indeed the hybrids and plug in electrical will have to go up a minimum of 4 x's greater that the already higher price per mile driven, and acquisition cost, it costs now to not even break even. CA tiered KWH is already @ $.29 per. While it is more costly per mile driven than RUG/PUG it is not near enough !!! The Volt is essentially a 12 to 15k gasser that in the plug in electric/hybrid forms costs 40,000. The other catch 22 is most sane folks will not buy one until prices and operating costs go ... down. Be careful what you wish for. :sick:
Upshot: The current TDI's with the current 6 speed manual transmission is probably( even after a 100 years) (one of) the best transmission( TDI engine) combinations.
Actually this (above quote) is VERY logical to (a minority of ) folks, involved with TDI's, albeit those who have chosen 5/6 speed M/T's in a TDI. It is obvious that there are oems that offer TDI's only in A/T. So if 257.5 M are in the passenger vehicle fleet and 5% are diesels (12.875 M) AND of that minority 20% ARE 5/6 speed M/T's then we are referring to LESS THAN 2.575 M TDI owners with 5/6 speeds.
It (the quoted sentiment) might NOT be so logical to gasser owners with A/T's, which happen to be the majority of passenger car owners. The gasser engines are @ 95% +. The A/T transmissions are @ 80% +. My swag of TDI'ers that opt for M/T's ( 1.55 M) are a minority within a further minority @ app 20% of the three percent (7.725 M) of passenger car diesels. ( 257,5 M ) IF over all M/T statistics are true, i.e. 20% of the over all passenger vehicle fleet (51.5 M) have M/T's,
I think the oems are in a quandary. They can not openly admit that the slush box days (of old) are numbered. However, the opaqueness has a huge number of peep holes. :sick: :lemon: :shades: . A/T development is now lumpy at best. It might not be obvious that if one invests in the wrong "horse" technology, that wronge choice can have very negative consequences. So for example, no less a consumer entity than CR has come out saying turbo charged small engine gassers are not the panacea. One broad brush issue is it puts this whole (solution effort) at mortal risk. I do not think this "pronouncement" has really sunk in at the consumer level. Certainly the oems are getting BLASTED with the consequences of this. Another (WSJ) has come out saying a lot of gasser cars don't even come close to their mpg EPA ratings, 2004 Toyota Prius being the most notable example. A little know component CVT, of that component is hardly ever mentioned, in that issue.
So for another A/T example if an oem wants to stay with a so called slush box, he/she will have to implement a wider range 8 SPEED A/T with D- Drive/ S-Sport with the shiftable 8 speed "sequential shift gate". I am sure none of the oems likes the way increased costs. The driver here of course is the progressively higher fuel (mpg) standards.
So for my extremely small .02 cents, which in the over all scheme of things is probably a minority position within a minority position I would not be a buyer of a gasser, hybrid, plug in, CVT, slush box (old) CVT hybrid Tesla transmission.
The Orwellians on both sides are eventually going to move to a usage tax, per mile - just wait.
Indeed you are making the argument for me, the cost per mile driven is locked step scheduled to go UP.
Cost per mile is always rising, if one includes vehicle costs, insurance, maintenance. This is nothing new. Per mile taxes - not simple rising costs - will be the new thing.
More on topic, again you are making the cost per mile driven going up argument for me. Of course they want to raise taxes. I already said it, way before. Again it has not, is not and will not be enough. Yes Europe is a GREAT model, given the European financial debacle !! ?? Even the Germans bristle @ bankrolling the Euro madness. :surprise:
VA is trying to get rid of the gas tax entirely, and tax the vehicles instead.
Worse, diesel tax would remain, so a TDI would be double taxed.
Plus it removes an incentive to buy an efficient vehicle in the first place.
It's stupid on many levels. There are politicians we're talking about, so basically it's a sure thing. LOL
Here's what will happen - VA stations will be full of MD residents crossing the border to buy cheap gas. The roads will be more crowded with no revenue to show for it.
Lemme look...
Gas Buddy has gas in Fairfax, VA for $3.50, diesel is $3.89, or 11% more.
Remove 38.2 cents VA gas tax, but leave it on the diesel, and you get $3.12 vs. $3.89. 25% more expensive.
There is never enough when it comes to raising taxes, yes.
If only we had the dedication to industry and infrastructure had by Germany...instead we get ever widening socio-economic gaps and the most insane military-industrial complex in modern history.
I know some in WA state are considering similar measures. The same people who mismanage road projects to begin with.
A lot of congress/senate staff live in NoVA. So let's say they do pass the bill, no gasoline tax but registration costs spike upward as of, say, July 1, 2013.
They're rich anyway, so they'll buy 3 new gas guzzling cars on June 30, to dodge the new tax, and then fuel it up for life sans taxes.
Genius.
Knowing folks these days, though, I'll probably have to eat those words. :sick:
I am not sure why you seem to like the sound of one hand clapping? The choice or OPTION( of a 6 speed M/T) makes (consumer) sense. Indeed I think the MPG range on the M/T would be FAR better than even the good A/T's mpg. On the other hand with only 10,000 + in yearly sales (gasser, hybrid, diesel), I understand why the oem took the early Ford " color " option.
My take/swag is that fully 20% of (for example) the VW Touareg DIESELs would be M/T. Again only a swag, IF 25% are diesels, 20% of that would be 500/2,500 diesel units.
Having said that, my 1.5 cent opinion: the Aisin (Toyota subsidiary) 8 speed A/T with 8 speed shift gate option and D/S is one of the better TDI motor and A/T transmission combination on the markets today.
Maybe diesels will save the manual transmission in the US.
Not to pick a bone with the above expressed sentiment, but once the "law/s" are written, YOU (or anyone else for that matter) also can chose or not to comply with it and in effect "reap"or not, the .... benefits. EX VP mcGORE would be a good recent example. So really it is not a DODGE (implying law breaking) but COMPLIANCE ! (- legality being obvious?) Now whether you or I think it moral/immoral, fair unfair, like/dis are way different issue/s/ discussions.
Maybe diesels will save the manual transmission in the US."...
While I know it will probably ADD, HOW it will add or even subtract from the over all US M/T passenger population (20%=51.5 M of 257.5 M vehicles) is probably unknown and probably more importantly untracked by the NHTSA.
It really remains unchanged the TDI and manual transmission has been, is and probably will remain the TDI's best transmission option.
"The Subaru Boxer Diesel (Horizontally-Opposed diesel engine), teamed for the first time with the Lineartronic (CVT), is now available on the Outback.
The Lineartronic not only offers a smooth and fuel efficient ride, it also further enhances the sporty driving of the Subaru Boxer Diesel. Adaptive control and manual shifting are among the features that deliver genuine fun-to-drive character."
23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd
They had to beef up the CVT for the turbo Forester so now it can handle the diesel.
Doubt we will see it as it is still not clean enough for CARB.
They are also teasing a hybrid concept but gasoline/electric, and not like any current model. Maybe a C-max and Prius V competitor?
MB diesel owners, so called BlueTec are strangely silent about the "hybrid CVT". I don't think that even MB makes a point of calling it that, other than A/T. So I guess by default it is not an issue with the majority of MB TDI, aka BlueTec owners. Now how a hybrid CVT and CVT differ is beyond me. I do know the MB ML350 BlueTec sports 455# ft of torque.
A diesel revs low, just take the engine to the torque peak and leave it right there. No high revs needed.
Could just be a good combo, if tuned right.
..."the worse vehicle I have ever driven during my tenure with the brand."... (???my sic)
A bit harsh from a MB owner of 7 MB's ????
Normally I look to CNET for electronic reviews ! ? :confuse:
The Jeep dealers I have spoken to are clueless about the 2014 Grand Cherokee diesel coming to America. They know nothing until they are unloaded off the trucks.
If I can take his figures on mileage, I can assume I would save about $900 per year driving 7000 miles with either vehicle. His comment on the lighting package was also interesting. I think that might be a good option.
Diesel cars and SUVs accounted for just 1% of U.S. vehicle sales last year. That's minute, but it's also up from 0.2% in 2007, according to Edmunds.com.
Heavy-duty pickups and vans accounted for another 1.8% of U.S. sales last year. Hybrids accounted for 3% of U.S. light vehicle sales in 2012, up from 2.1% in 2011.
If mainstream vehicles like the Cruze, Grand Cherokee and Mazda 6 midsize sedan don't sell Americans on diesels, it probably can't be done."
New models try to sell America on diesels (Detroit News)
Using the current corner store pricing:
$4.19 D2 @ 31 mpg= .135 cents per mile driven
vs
$4.05 RUG @ 20 mpg= .2025 cents per mile driven
(a more recent 400 mile plus R/T between Acura MDX & VW Touareg TDI).
All please note diesel cost MORE per gal !!!! ???? In this real world example, D2 costs .14 cents more than PUG. (MDX requires PUG)
It is more than evident, indeed overwhelmingly obvious, most folks are just fine paying 50% more (per mile driven) for fuel.
The only thing missing from his price point of PUG @$ 4.50 is the price point of D2. Then it would be simple to run the comparison of per mile driven fuel.
The game changer of course would be if the like like gasser models got the same or BETTER fuel mileage than the diesel.
They are only 1% of the total. They are 20% of VW's total. Not sure about the lux brands from Germany. I think half the A3 Audi's are TDI now. Could we eventually become 50% diesel like the EU?
One guy complains about the handling - ever heard of a test drive?