What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

..."It could be US Americans and Canadians are cheapskates. You can buy most any sort of diesel you like in the UK for a price. They have the VW Tiguan 4Motion with the peppy 2.0L TDI for 31k GBP or $49k USD. That includes the latest 7 speed DSG transmission. Would we pay that much for a Tiguan TDI AWD?"...

@ 180,000 miles and 10 years, I am truly looking forward to the NEXT 200,000 miles !! This critter is on 30,000 miles OCI's (Mobil One 5w40 TDT, available @ WalMart of all places. Still delivers 50 mpg in the I really don't care mode. Life is good.

crkyolfrt

Maybe we are..or maybe we just don't allow ourselves to get taken to the cleaners. There is no way that Tiguan is worth $49k.

While that 280 ftlb torque Golf might be a bit of a premium, I don't see why we couldn't just have the 'humble' 230ftlb (or whatever it is) 2.0 TDI already in use here in a less than loaded AWD for lets say 26k? That is allowing (a very reasonable) ...what..2 grand? for the AWD option. In fact that 26k should buy you the diesel, AWD, air, cruise, keyless entry, auto, heated seats and the usual assortment of airbags and a stereo that still has a CD slot...something GM and maybe others have started to decide no one needs anymore that counts me out as I still do not own an ianything, and have not yet ever made an MP3 file. But I have about 600 CD's and would love the option of just grabbing a few for my trips. And maybe a dozen for a 3 day w/e.. Single slot is fine, and preferred thank you very much.

ateixeira

UK prices for all cars are off the charts.

How much more does it cost vs a gasser? We would see a similar difference here, in percent.

gagrice

But I have about 600 CD's and would love the option of just grabbing a few for my trips. And maybe a dozen for a 3 day w/e.. Single slot is fine, and preferred thank you very much.

I have a whole case with CDs for trips as well. Our Sequoia NAV has a CD single player that ate one of my favorite CDs. It took Toyota months to get a new NAV installed. It quit with the door screen hanging out. Darned inconvenient. No radio, NAV or CD player for a long time. Then it was almost a year later they called to tell me they had my CD. All scratched up of course. I have all my CDs ripped onto my computer. But don't have an iThing or player. I would say CD players are headed to the same graveyard as 8Tracks and Cassette players. The plus, most DVD players will play your CDs.

crkyolfrt

I'm not real offended, so no apology necessary because I think the term was used more in ignorance than with any malice intent.. but just as an FYI and as a measure to check ignorance..

Canuckistan isn't a very PC term for us Canadians..or at least not the ones whose roots originated here or came from England or the USA.

For me, the istan part is what really catches in my throat. Makes us potential victims..not necessarily endorsors..

FWIW, I have nothing against immigrants who willfully contribute to a nation's growth and ability to prosper. That said tho.. I do take special exception to those who come here expecting a better way of life by leaving behind their land of birth, but then systematically set out to try to convert or have us make special exceptions for their old ways of living. If they had such great ideas back home, then why leave them?

Anyway..back to diesels..

gagrice

The Gasser Tiguan is only 600 gbp less than the TDI. That is about $950 USD premium for the diesel. Some VW models sold in the UK are not even offered with a gas engine. The luxury Phaeton is diesel only.

crkyolfrt

Gee, that sucks about having the whole CD glitch experience..it is one thing for them to take so long to fix, but no excuse whatsoever for them to scratch the CD once retreived..no excuse at all..despicable. I have some CD's that are simply not replaceable at any money.

Sorry to hear..but odd eh..we are used to hearing about eaten tapes, but I think must be rare with CD's.

FWIW, I have started to park with either a full sunscreen inside or if quick stop I throw a newspaper on the dash above the CD player. It is closer to the top with some brands than others, but some of them get so HOT you wouldn't believe it from dash branding. (the super hot sun getting magnified through some windshield shapes and angles) Having that newspaper there makes a huge difference and have never had a CD player failure since discovering this in a Nissan X Trail. They replaced many units but only because they were cooking. The newspaper was the easy solution.

gagrice

When I buy a new CD the first thing I do is RIP it into my main computer. That way it is saved at the highest possible fidelity for MP3. Most of the CDs we carry are copies from the original. The one that was in the NAV when it quit happened to be one I wanted to hear before making a copy. Toyota gave me a new NAV so the old one was lost somewhere. I had to ask several times over that year if my CD was retrieved. I was very surprised when they did find it.

Oh and all my music is backed up onto a separate external Hard drives with important docs that goes in the safe while we are gone. After a few times of re-entering lost data you learn to backup multiple places. Disk space is cheap. Costco has a 4 TB Seagate external drive on sale for $159. You can store 1 million MP3 pieces of music on that drive. That is 1.6 cents per 100 songs. That is cheap even for a cheapskate like me.

stever

I've saved a few CDs to MP3s, but honestly, I'd rather tune in to a station (be it online, the radio or maybe something like Pandora or Sirius) and be "surprised" by someone else's playlist.

Here's an appropriate one for your playlist:

Watts in a Tank by the Dutch group Diesel.:-)

Polished soft metal; what's not to like? And the music is probably okay too.

fintail

Why would I want to use a Personal Computer term?

crkyolfrt

Yes, I have saved many of my CD's to CD, not on the PC though. I haven't made any for a few years though. If I go to the city I make sure I only take ones that are copies, but as luck can happen, if you waiver from this, that is when you will get the car broken into or have the unit eat an original. It is sort of encouraging that they found the CD after a year and having to trace the old player. On the other hand, no excuse for the damage to it after having found it. I suppose one could assume some/all of the scratches might have happened when the unit was shipped to where ever they ship the faulty units that have been warranted. The CD could easily come loose inside the player and then flopped around inside getting scratched by the backside of a circuit board or the many sharp mechanical bits inside. I could see this happening actually.

I had / still have to finally fix, a Pioneer DVD recorder that had a capacitor blow during a hydro outage, and it quit with a DVD inside that I needed to retrieve. So I took it apart and found out it was way more involved than I thought it was going to be to get to the CD. In 10 minutes, I got close enough to see it, but 90 min later to actually get it out. I kept the player level the whole time, even before I saw the CD, and was glad I had because where it was sitting, had it been tilted on its side it was free to slide right down between two circuit boards, and you maybe know how sharp the snipped back ends of the components can be on the soldered side. If this happened to yours, even if it wasn't shipped anywhere, I don't see an inventory guy reaching in and then realizing to get it out it would require a bunch of labour hours to retrieve without further disassembly. Does it still play without skipping in some of your players, (the replacement in the car and at home)?

ruking1

..."How much more does it cost vs a gasser? We would see a similar difference here, in percent"...

You can research & calculate this, just as anyone else can. Because we can only buy and operate diesels and gassers certified for US markets, it is meaning LESS for other than. BUT it can be meaning FULL as a general (UK/world, etc) indicator.

So in 2003 VW Jetta TDI vs 1.8 T, the premium over a 1.8 L T, vs 1.9 TDI was $236. 180,000 miles later, the TDI resale premium (edmunds.com) TMV OVER the 1.8 L T ranges $1,416 TI, $1,636 PP, $2037 DS.

Using www.fueleconomy.gov AVG mpg= 46.5 mpg/27.5 mpg or 3,871 gals to 6,545 gals or 69.1% greater fuel consumption. As you have heard me say and as you have ALSO written, that is a lot of fuel (2,674 gals MORE to perform the same WORK: go 180,000 miles).

So 2,674 gals of more fuel x $3.85 per gal PUG (current corner store prices) that is $10,295 dollars MORE for 180,000 miles .

I could go on and on, but you have dismissed the real world diesel like model in almost every case on the diesel side. No matter really.

So just on those two factors diesel resale values AND mpg differences the "cost premium will get me a min of 60% more per year (1180) to a 2674 gal savings to a max of $10,295 @ current PUG pump prices.

dudleyr

Is the extra cost of the diesel taken into account? In other words the savings on the first $3,871 needs to be subtracted from the $10,295 total to get the actual extra cost.

It will certainly still favor the diesel, but not by as much.

Might as well have full disclosure.

ruking1

In the interests of FULL disclosure, one can easily do a side by side comparison, given the data presented. Actually that is why I do it that way. I showed the math behind 46.5 mpg and 27.5 mpg. @ times I think anothers' reluctance to run his/her own numbers and criticizing is a "peel me a grape" thang. But at other times, it masks a serious aversion to running a cheap calculator. Sometimes, other just want to cast doubt, for the mind is already made up.

Be that as it may, the current PUG corner store price is once again, $3.85 PUG x 6,545 gals =$25,198. D2 @ $4.09 (D2 is MORE, albeit .24 cents more) x 3,871 gals =$15,832 -25,198= 9,366 dollars.

There are some folks that subscribe to this board that will have you believe that $15,832 (D2 in this case) expended is MORE than #25,19, to do the same work. !!!!! :sick: and they say it and say it more than several times with... a straight face (so to speak)

I am getting the feeling I am pissing off a lot of congressmen/women here. (he actually might be one :lemon: ) The math skills are certainly there !?

This (side by side) is relevant if you have indeed run them, .... side by side. In my case, I have run one, but NOT the other.

stever

Keep forgetting to check local diesel prices but regular unleaded has jumped up almost .30 cents a gallon here in the last two weeks. Gasbuddy says diesel is around $3.99 so that price hasn't changed much at all.

So the differential is getting squeezed pretty good right now. $4 minus $3.60 = 40 cents a gallon. I have this sinking feeling it's going to keep narrowing. :sick:

ateixeira

The Gasser Tiguan is only 600 gbp less than the TDI

Thanks for looking that up. Is that compared to the 2.0T engine? That requires premium, so the diesel would seem like the way to go even with the $950 USD premium.

gagrice

Just went to the library past the most expensive station in El Cajon. The price was $4.19 for RUG. Premium and Diesel were the same at $4.39. An hour later going home that same Shell station was at $4.39 for RUG. PUG and D2 were at $4.59. The only vehicles you see there are the local cops. We figure they can stick it to the city and get away with it. It is one block from the cop shop. Cheapest diesel is $3.99. RUG varies from $3.49 to $4.69. So if you happen to live in the wrong area, you could pay more for RUG than diesel. RUG has a $1.20 swing, while diesel only 75 cent swing in price. Which makes diesel the logical choice for fuel. :shades:

stever

Wonder if the police commissioner's wife owns that station?

Perhaps someone should compare the Cayennes - they come in gas, diesel and hybrid flavors now.

The hybrid price ($69,850) really seems extreme. $20k more than the gasser.

ateixeira

You could by an entire Prius c for that much. Ridiculous.

gagrice

Is that compared to the 2.0T engine? That requires premium

It is the 2.0L TSI engine. That is all they sell in the UK for the Tiguan gassers. And they just says it requires Unleaded Petrol. It for sure requires Premium here. I don't think VW has developed a Urea system for the small TDI engine. Same for Mercedes and their wonderful 4 cylinder diesel with 369 Ft Lbs of torque, and high 30s combined in a heavy SUV like the ML.

gagrice

The hybrid price ($69,850) really seems extreme. $20k more than the gasser.

That would be cheap for a Cayenne Hybrid. There are seven available from here to San Francisco. Cheapest is $80k and they go up to $88k.

The diesels are selling $66k to $76k.

stever

What's wrong with you diesel fans - don't like your cars loaded up with options? :P

Gas popped yet again today, so the differential is only 35 cents here in the boonies.

ruking1

..."The hybrid price ($69,850) really seems extreme. $20k more than the gasser."...

??????

In the context of US inventory of 50 PCH's 2013, that is the "GOOD" news !!!! The fact of the matter, that priced PCH is THE outlier (cheapest IS 69,900 MSRP) of the outlier. The now outer range is 102,105, if cars .com's US inventory is to be believed. :shades: :sick:

2013 PC gassers start @ 54,595 and go to 149,055 in 1005 units.

Of course the on TOPIC comparison with 169 DIESEL 2013 PC's is a range of 62,619 to 86,460. Funny how both the hybrid and gasser option ranges far exceed the perceived "diesel is more expensive" moniker !!??

stever

"Volkswagen is seriously considering bringing its economical Golf GTD hot hatchback to America next year.

Sources at the 2013 Detroit Auto Show confirmed that the diesel-powered GTD would be shown alongside the Golf VII GTI at this year's 2013 Geneva Auto Show in March.

"Sales of our diesels have been rising in the U.S. and there's been a wide push internally to include more diesel variants of more models for buyers here," a Volkswagen source said."

2014 Volkswagen Golf GTD Likely for the U.S.

flightnurse

A friend of mine in Scotland just bought a GTD and loves it, she had a GTI but wanted something that got better MPG, so far with 1500 miles she reports she is getting roughly 40% better MPG then her 2010 GTi.. I hope VW does bring over the GTD to the states...

ruking1

I think it promises to be a real shoot out with the MAZDA3 TDI @ 310 # ft vs VW Golf's 280 # ft for in and around 3k#'s and VW Golfs sub 3k #'s. It will be interesting to hear first adopter takes (US markets) for both. It will take a fair time to get the results at 100k + miles, but I am very interested in how Mazda posts those results.

In reading in passing, the Japanese oems almost had their lunches handed to them in the European diesel markets. I am thinking Mazda wants to challenge that dominance here in the (much smaller and lower percentage) US diesel markets. I wish them every success. For as bad a reputation for quality that VW has in the US markets, Mazda will have to dial up their own quality to even come close. They certainly have a better reliability reputation, even as VW is working hard to close THAT gap.

gagrice

Mazda needs to do something different. They are about the only automaker showing a decrease in sales. I think a few diesels would help them survive. For me they are not an attractive line of vehicles.

Feb 1, 2013

IRVINE, Calif., Feb. 1, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- Mazda North American Operations (MNAO) today reported January U.S. sales of 21,319 vehicles, representing a decrease of 11.2 percent versus last year.

ateixeira

Their volume product is old and will be replaced soon (Mazda3). The CX5 is doing well and just got a badly needed bigger engine. The brand new 6 is just launching, too.

They will never do the volumes Honda and Toyota do, so I think going after a diesel niche makes total sense for them.

Horrible month, though, considering just about everybody else was way up.

gagrice

It could be supply issues. They seem popular down here. The two people I know that have the 3s like them a lot.

ateixeira

Mazda is basically importing everything now. The old 6 line is now Ford's.

Look at the Yen. Good bye profits.

Diesels have a higher margin and might literally save them.

crkyolfrt

I am still trying to understand how they have gotten fairly impressive output/fuel used in the gas jobs with their quite high CR's on 87 octane. I have read the measures they have taken to make it happen, but still seems a little out there. And further to their interesting approach, on the SkyActive diesels, how are they getting such impressively high torque and hp #'s yet still provide good FE and all the while do it with extra low CR's? Will this lower CR make the diesel a bit of a hard starter in extra cold temps?

I am also curious why no one else seems to be going after similar tech. SkyActive has been around for awhile now...enough time to generate at least some potential rumours of the competition to offer similar gas high compression, diesel low compression engines.

I know Mazda has always been the one to offer different type engine design. Their almost stubborn continuation with the rotary, and even the 2.3 that they used in the Mellenium...forget what was different about that one, but was a high output for a 2.3 and I don't think it was through the use of a turbo or blower was it?

So I also question engine longevity potential I guess, especially the high compression gas jobs on low octane. Even items like head gaskets...are they going to be a weak point once past 140000 miles sort of thing? Pistons..are they going to be prone to burn-thru due to pre-detonation from carbon build up in the combustion chamber raising the CR even further after miles well south of warranty has been racked up, thereby also being a head gasket life span stressor?

ateixeira

Miller cycle supercharging effect and valve timing overlap. Neat oddball power trains. Just not successful perhaps because Mazda didn't have a consistent message.

SkyActiv-G and soon -D is similar I guess, but they have to get the tech in every model ASAP and then have a consistent marketing effort so people understand what it means.

140k would be fine (if that's what happens) as they'd be on the 3rd owner by then.

Great tech, look at real world mileage. It's the only hatch than can rival the Golf TDI in the real world. Even in the hands of Autoweek editors only the TDI and the Mazda3 could actually hit 40 mpg at 70 mph.

Can the SkyActiv-D hit 50 and knock the Prius out on Fuelly? It could....

crkyolfrt

Miller cycle....ya that's the one..

I did wonder what figure I should have used for my point..I chose 140k miles but maybe I should have said a very reasonable (low) 100k miles...cuz as we all know, for some owners, 100k goes by pretty fast. Maybe should have said 80 k, FTM..I don't know too many people that welcome a head gasket repair once at 100k. Part of the problem is not being sure you are getting a good job. More than a few head gasket (just as an example) replacements last the repaired warranty period but don't have a chance to compare to the original factory job's life potential. I did use a head gasket purposely though in this example because few other repairs are prone to improper replacement procedures that hide the bad job, slowly doing other life threatening damage to engine internals, and all the while often discovered out of wty and even if it is done under the repaired wty, the premature wear done to the engine internals are already done and owned by you as your liability. External leaks are the best to have if you get a botched job. It's the slow internal ones that concern me the most..

Repair quality, is one of my biggest concerns when it comes to a new car's longevity potential. The longer it can last through good design before a mechanic gets his/her hands on it, the better. Even if the repair is not horrendously expensive you still might get an excellent mech/job, but more often than not you don't...you only get fair or worse.. and this includes at the dealer too, not just indy efforts..

gagrice

I did use a head gasket purposely though in this example because few other repairs are prone to improper replacement procedures that hide the bad job

OEM headgasket failure is real as well. My 1973 Subaru blew a headgasket with less than 3000 miles. The Dealer in Anchorage was 9 weeks behind on repairs. They did sell me a new headgasket kit for around 100 bucks. I pulled the engine replaced the defective headgasket. Got it back on the road and less than a 1000 miles the other side blew. Same story booked up for months on warranty repairs. Bought another kit and replaced. No more headgasket failures as long as I owned the vehicle. I did not keep it a long time as it was lousy in deep snow.

ruking1

I have two relatives that have the (2012's) Mazda 3's. I can definitely understand why folks like them. The 310 # ft of torque will put the higher cruise speed and mountain upgrade smiles all over those folks faces that get them AND the manual transmission. If Mazda gives their diesels the same "beefiness" (as their skyactiv gassers) I think they might have some unfortunate issues. The real issue is NOT just a few component parts. They are all connected. Some examples are beefier transmissions ( 310# ft but need to take a minimum of 350# ft (vs 148/168 # ft gasser) of torque, springs, shocks, struts as the TDI engines are normally heavier, H to V rated tires, bigger and stronger brake pads and rotors, etc.

ateixeira

I think the SkyActiv 2l is the base on the block in my Miata, and makes 145hp vs 170, and Miatas are grenade proof.

Then again the rotary burns oil and gets lousy mileage.

Let's see how their diesel does.

bpeebles

You said "Then again the rotary burns oil and gets lousy mileage."

Lets be clear here.... a rotary engine is akin to a 2-stroke in that it is SUPPOSED to consume some oil. Mazda has done a masterful engineering job by minimizing the oil-consumption.

Likewise, BRP E-TEC 2-cycle engines (as seen in SkiDoo snowmobiles and Johnson/Evinrude outboards) consume virtually no oil. These engines may be the engineering marvel of the decade. The power and lightweight of a 2-stroke engine which meets many 4-cycle emissions.

It took NASA-designed metallurgy in thre pistons to achieve this high-point in engine-technology.

This also means NO OIL CHANGES!!! (because there is no oil in the crankcase)

The Downside: The E-TEC engines must be fed with very special 2-cycle injection oil.

If you want to learn more about modern engine technology.

ateixeira

Fair enough, then.

I do trust Mazda powertrains.

bpeebles

Have you ever been to a "street car day" at a dragstrip and saw the beating those Mazda's take?

Dont forget that this is AFTER the owner has added a turbocharger the size of a lawnmower-engine along with a nitrus. (I call that bottle-fed) From my observations, the 'weak link' is the CV-joints on the ends of the driveshafts.

The rotary-engines seem to be able to spin 15000 rpm because there are no reciprocating pistons nor valves to limit things.

stever

Very interesting.

Interesting price on the oil too at $50 a gallon, but at least you don't use much of it. And if you're buying an outboard for $17.5k....

Madza's debut in the Rolex 24 was tough.

Mazda races diesel-powered sedans in Rolex 24, retires early (MSN)

bpeebles

The oil for my VW TDI is over $40 for 5 liters.... not much different from $50 gal.

ateixeira

It's a good learning experience for them. They're still rookies.

stever

Yeah, I like that they jumped right out of the gate instead of playing on the dynos until mid-season.

(The oil I get typically runs $12 to $14 for a 5 qt. jug).

ruking1

..."The oil for my VW TDI is over $40 for 5 liters.... not much different from $50 gal."...

I think also folks like you (and I) can and should put it into context. The range on the "specification" of the oil is quite WIDE (robust). All of us are @ choice on the OCI.

Past the ( prepaid )dealer provided 3 oil changes 10,000 miles oem recommended intervals I have no issues running 30,000 miles OCI's. I run my gassers 20,000 miles. The reason why I choice 20,000 miles is even the LEAST consumptive (gasser) of oil, will need to be topped off @ that interval. So rather than top it off, I just CHANGE it.

VW 507.00 specification (TDI) oil can not be called that unless it meets the specification for up to 30,000 miles/50,000 km. In two of three (VW) diesels, consumption is @ 1/4 to 1/2 qt (8 to 16 oz) in 30,000 miles. One has 180,000 miles and the other has 51,000 miles. Both (1.9/2.0 TDI's) have app 5 L OCI sumps. The 3.0 TDI is @ app 9 L's !!! ????? It is coming up on its second 10,000 miles interval. The first 10,000 miles took a pretty aggressive break in (RPM frequently to 80% of redline 5,100) consumption was slightly more @ .5 L in 12,000 miles. This was still not enough to trigger an add oil indicator.

ruking1

...The truth is finally being circulated by no less a consumer entity: CR !!

MOST tubocharged GASSERS don't deliver on mpg claims !?

gagrice

LaHood: ‘America is one big pothole’

Outgoing Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood lamented the amount of infrastructure spending that was approved by Congress during his tenure at the Department of Transportation (DOT) on Wednesday.

"America is one big pothole right now," LaHood said in an interview on "The Diane Rehm Show" on National Public Radio.

"At one time ... we were the leader in infrastructure," LaHood continued. "We built the interstate system. It's the best road system in the world, and we're proud of it. But we're falling way behind other countries, because we have not made the investments."

LaHood noted that Congress passed a $105 billion surface transportation bill last year, but he lamented the fact that the measure only provided appropriations for road and transit projects until 2014.

"Congress passed a two-year bill. Ordinarily they would pass a five year bill," he said. "It was only a two-year bill because they couldn't find enough money to fund a five-year bill."


http://thehill.com/blogs/transportation-report/infrastructure/281461-lahood-amer- ica-is-one-big-pothole-right-now

stever

I don't get the connection this story has to the choice of fuel used.

Americans like to spend big bucks on shiny new infrastructure projects. Spending for maintenance and operation isn't sexy.

gagrice

Lots of slow going over potholes is more economical with diesel. :shades:

Of course you could have a gas guzzling SUV if you don't want to save fossil fuel. Most cars today would have been given a ticket for being too low to the ground when I was a teenager. Low cars and potholes are not compatible.

I was glad LaHood made it clear in his parting words that our roads are a mess in America. Some states do better than others. CA is probably the worst I have been on in the last decade. They would rather waste money on a High speed rail to NOWHERE....

fintail

We all know this is a second world nation in terms of transportation infrastructure. Spend a few weeks in Europe and come back - you'll want to cry. Of course, it has to be paid for - the US simply isn't laid out correctly to deal with $7 fuel (including diesel), and we don't have someone else subsidizing our defense. As well, we'd rather coddle the "producers" and "creators" in hopes it will trickle down into a new golden age, when then everything can be fixed up.

It's scary that we were once in a mindless irresponsible police state brazen enough to chase people for having low cars. Not always the good old days. Less diesels then, too.

gagrice

It's scary that we were once in a mindless irresponsible police state brazen enough to chase people for having low cars.

In the early 1960s the cops would come into Oscar's Drive-in with a long stick that had a 6" piece on the end. If any part of your car was closer than 6" from the ground you got a ticket. My buddy had a brand new 1961 Chevy and the exhaust was less than 6". He went to the dealer with the ticket and after a couple court appearances got off the hook. By contrast today you can be in a hit and run in CA and likely never be prosecuted for lack of witnesses.
How times have changed.