What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

Efficient Cars: Emerging Clean Diesels May Give Electric Vehicles A Jolt

houdini1

I agree, the 28 mpg would seem to make more sense.

ruking1

I would not rule out the RANGE of mpg. Some folks are lead foot/anchor brake to clueless how to drive a diesel and/or a 7 speed or ... both. Some tow also !

gagrice

I don't think the way I drive it would be difficult to get 28 MPG on the highway with a GL. The big question? Do I need or want the extra seats and space? I had the back seats of the Sequoia in my storage for 5 years. They take up a lot of the space and have only been used twice in almost 6 years when my son and family were here. If I equip the GL350 Bluetec comparable to the VW Touareg TDI Lux it will cost me about $22k more for the GL. The ML350 Bluetec is easier to deal on. However to get it equipped comparable to the VW would still be about $10k more. For those that nameplates denote more luxury it might be important. The Touareg is luxurious enough for me. And the gadgets are at least a couple years more advanced in the VW. Except for the M-Brace option offered by Mercedes. I would probably let it lapse as I did with Onstar. I don't see those services as useful as having live Internet with Google and GasBuddy via Verizon or AT&T.

scwmcan

For the two times you used the extra seats it would be cheaper to either rent a seven seated when you needed it, or if you we're okay with not being together use one of you other cars as well as the new SUV to get to your destinations with all the family.

ruking1

..."Do I need or want the extra seats and space?'''...

Not only is this probably one of the most important decisions, it is even more so for gassers (greater audience). The consequences are even greater from both a micro (your point of view) but also a MACRO (95% of the passenger vehicle fleet are gassers) point of view: if only from the mpg perspective.

If the VW 3.0 L TDI engine were offered in a/the smaller VW platform: say Jetta/Passat/Tiquan AND were able to pass the situational CA.gov chain controls mandates, in effect I have very little "need" nor want for the Touareg's " size". For the greater audience, this would require some discussion. However, you and I have been on this board long enough that I think you know what I mean, as I do know what you mean, and its (multi dimensional) downstream consequences.

A macro example would be: why should I get up to 33 mpg (31 average) on a VW Touareg TDI, when I could possibly get 35 to 44 if the 3.0 L TDI engine were stuffed into a Jetta/ JSW//Passat or dare I say GOLF (AWD) and shoot through CA.gov situational mandates ? (chain controls )??? !

gagrice

I would rather have the 4 cylinder diesel in a Touareg/ML sized SUV. The ML250 Bluetec would have been my vehicle of choice. But that is only for the EU market. Made in USA and shipped back to Germany. After experiencing 400+ foot lbs of torque in 3 German SUVs I can say with confidence the 369 ft lbs offered in the MB GLK250 Bluetec is more than adequate. The V8 in my behemoth Sequoia is only 314 ft lbs and it is enough for any driving I have done. Too bad the gas mileage sucks. The nature of low energy gasoline.

ruking1

Looking at this (backwards) MB has certainly hit the nail on the head with a 4 cylinder product producing 369 # ft of torque AND getting EPA H of 33 mpg for a sub 4k # vehicle !!

gagrice

I think the GLK250 Bluetec will be a huge seller for MB. They were up 36.7% in June. My guess mostly the diesel. A no brainer when it is cheaper than the gas version. I found out one of my wife's nephews took his wife's MB C coupe in for service. They gave them a GLK as a loaner. They loved it and traded the C in for the GLK.

kurtamaxxxguy

If Subaru ever decides to put their Diesel into USA-bound Foresters, I would be very interested provided the result is as good as the current '14 Forester, but with better fuel economy.

ruking1

It is really too bad that Subaru does not (SEEM to) have the financial wear withal to make a move to US market diesels. Or maybe because they are more of a "niche" market, projected diesel sales are NEGATIVE from the start. They are regarded as one of the best made cars in the segments which they compete.

Just as a comparison & I do not know if VW had originally planned this, but the JSW or Jetta Station Wagon sells app 85% TDI's. Slightly more I believe are DSG's over 8 speed M/T's. JSW's not only cost more new, but the resale vales are generally higher.

gagrice

I think it is as simple as not having a transmission capable of handling the torque. Supposedly they beefed up their silly CVT to handle it and will sell them in Australia. I would not buy the Subaru diesel with a CVT. Too bad they don't offer the MT models here.

ruking1

Part and parcel of the " new", "silent" diesel revolution is indeed the better adaptivity of "BETTER" transmissions. So much so that ANY gasser (let alone diesel) that comes out without one of the newer and better transmissions are actually starting with SEVERE handicaps. Even GM recognizes that as they are repurchasing for FAR more monies, the transmission companies they sold for far less monies (not too long ago), building 8 speed transmissions .

This is not meant to start or confirm or deny rumors, but I secretly wonder if companies like Tremec are working on a 7/8 speed M/T's. .

Someone posted on this board not too many posts ago that VW is looking to put TDI's with 8 speed DSG's (dry sump) to market in the not too distant future. Needless to say anything with a 4/5 to even 6 speed clunker transmissions will be almost hopelessly out of date. I would swag Subaru knows this and obviously can not afford to be. (hopelessly out of date)

ruking1

Just filled today (hopefully before the news yesterday of a barrel of oil going UP double digit numbers) with a predicted spike of 20-30 cents per gal. 21 gals/26.4 capacity for 625 miles. Did one normal R/T 420 miles, high desert stop and go runs to Costco for several LOADS, with a few "off road" excursions with another endless traffic, probably far worse than Fintail's bain in Seattle due to July 4th holiday traffic. A/C running all to most of the time. Trips were made with anywhere from 2 to 6 folks in the car and the predictable 500 to 1000 #'s of ...STUFF. So if I had come closer to the 26 gal I probably would have had a range of 775 miles. In any case despite holiday traffic patterns a GREAT time was had by all ! Hopefully on some level, that is one of the goals of having a passenger vehicle, albeit TDI !?

nyccarguy

Inspired by this week's 2013 Passat TDI Long Term Test Car Blog, I decided make some very simple calculations to see if a diesel car would work for me. Trying to get an apples to apples comparison, I used a VW Passat 2.5 SE w/ sunroof & navigation and a VW Passat TDI SE w/ sunroof & navigation. I used an MSRP vs. MSRP comparison because I'm interested enough, but not too much (read: lazy) to calculate discounts & sales tax... I know that NOBODY pays sticker for a car. Please feel free to criticize if you see some glaring flaw in my math. I drive 20,000 miles per year.

Passat Gas MSRP: $27,790
Passat Diesel MSRP: $30,860

Passat Gas City/Highway (EPA): 22/31
Passat Diesel City/Highway (EPA): 30/40

Both Cars have an 18.5 gallon fuel tank

Looking at prices at the gas station up the block from me
Passat Gas 87 Octane: $3.78/gallon
Passat Diesel: $4.15/gallon

Assuming I don't run the tank dry, lets say I put 16 gallons in the tank every week (yes I know this is flawed)

Passat Gas MPG Average (how I drive): 28 MPG
Passat Diesel MPG Average (how I drive): 38 MPG (I know people exceed EPA estimates, but let's give gas a chance)

Passat Gas Range: 448 miles
Passat Diesel Range: 608 miles

Cost per 16 gallon fill up (using today's prices):

Passat Gas: $60.48
Passat Diesel: $66.40

I'd use 4 (I rounded up from 3.75) tanks of GAS per month @ $241.92 x 12 months = $2,903.04 per year

I'd use 3 (rounded up from 2.75) tanks of DIESEL per month@ $199.20 x 12 months = $2,390 per year

So it would cost me $512.64 less per year in fuel, but I would have paid $2,890 more for the car.

Just using a fuel savings:MSRP model, it would take a little more than 5 1/2 years for me to break even with a DIESEL Passat vs a GAS Passat. This doesn't take into account that I'd probably rather drive a car with 236 lb/ft of torque vs. 177 lb/ft of torque.

How much does a UREA tank drain/fill cost?

I'd have to believe that after 5 1/2 years and 110,000 miles a diesel Passat would be worth more money.

How'd I do?

ruking1

Fuel Economy.gov lists EPA combined 42.1 mpg (DSG) , 45 mpg 6 speed (M/T), 25.9 mpg (A/T), So if those figures are to be believed, then in effect you under reported the diesel by - 5.25% and over reported the RUG/PUG + 8.1%. So if you ran those numbers....?

So if you do 20k miles per year, 5.5 years is 110,000 miles/ 42.1 mpg to 25.9 mpg or 2,613 gals @ 4.15, 4297 gals @ 3.78 or 64% MORE fuel to do the SAME job.

So is $10,844 (paid for diesel) more or less than $16,243 (paid for RUG)?

Probably more importantly !! Which (answer) would you rather spend? Hint ( 95% of the passenger vehicle fleet choses ....)MORE ! So you are in majority company.

dudleyr

Why not just divide 20,000 miles per year by the mpg to get the gallons used for each.
Simpler and more accurate. Actually favors the diesel a tad more $516 per year instead of $513.

I would also add that the I5 Passat is not an efficient modern gas engine with many competitors getting 2-7mpg better (Altima and Mazda6 at 38 mpg highway). It is even 3 mpg worse on the highway (EPA) than a 278 hp (252 lb-ft) V-6 Accord.

ruking1

The issue is the Altima and Mazda and Accord diesels (lack there of and said upfront by the op) , but you knew that!!?? BUT if you only want to go by highest mpg, it has been long ago established the results are RIGGED. But then again, you know that also.

nyccarguy

I used the AT & DSG numbers off of VW's website (22 city/31 hwy Gas) & (30 city/40 hwy diesel). What's RUG/PUG?

I'd obviously rather spend $10,884. I'm not a gung ho gasoline is king guy. I actually love the mid range torque & passing power offered by diesel motors.

So you are telling me the gas car costs $6K more to operate over a 5 year period? So when's the break even point for me using your numbers?

ruking1

First off, those are NOT my numbers. Anyone can go on that .gov site and do a comparison, aka real world and probably more importantly reported RANGE. I have listed (my) three diesel numbers ANECDOTALLY and have always labeled them as such.

So for example, if we can get 40-44 off a 09 Jetta . I think it i would be easy to do 45 mpg to 50 mpg for a 13 Passat (improvements include DEF and better gearing and tuning). But let me stress we have not put the 13 Passat under any routines the Jetta goes through so this is JUST a swag.

gagrice

I can see if you are stuck in that NE area being a bit more skeptical about diesel. It seems you get screwed on diesel price year round. Most of the USA diesel is closer to regular unleaded. In CA several months of the year diesel will cost less than RUG. Making the diesel a no brainer for those that think of such things. If you look at comps here at Edmunds on 5 year old diesel vs gas you will see that premium returned and then some. If I was buying a gasser it would not be a VW.

nyccarguy

Sorry, I meant to say the numbers off of fuel economy.gov. I know those aren't your numbers.

ohenryx

Well, I can’t get used prices for a Passat TDI, so the process falls apart.

But I can for a Jetta. Edmunds says the Jetta TDI is roughly equivalent to the SE (as far as trim levels). The 2013 Jetta TDI is MSRP at $22,990. The 2013 Jetta SE is $18,995, so $3,995 additional cost for the TDI.

3 years later, clean condition, 36k miles, looking at trade-in values, the 2010 gasser is worth $11.6, and the TDI is at $15.4. So $3.8 difference, when you paid $4k more to begin with.

And let’s check out the fuel savings. Your numbers, 28 mpg versus 38 mpg, $3.78 per gallon versus $4.15 per gallon.

36k miles / 28 mpg is 1,285 gallons at $3.78 per is $4,857 in fuel costs.
36k miles / 38 mpg is 947 gallons at $4.15 per is $3,930 in fuel costs.

So you save $927 in fuel, and lose $200 in depreciation. Net gain of $727. And this is with a fairly small number of miles driven (12k per year). The more miles you drive, the more you would save.

I agree with others here, I am not fond of that 5 cylinder gas engine in the VW. If I were going gas engine mid-level sedan, it would not be a Jetta or a Passat. But I very well might go for the TDI in a Passat.

gagrice

At Fuelly there are 335 Passat TDI 2013 owners posting mileage. 41 MPG is most common figure.

http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/passat/2013/diesel%20l4

nyccarguy

It isn't even me being skeptical, more curious. Most likely if I were VW Passat shopping, I wouldn't even like driving the 5 cyl, so it'd be either the V6 or the Diesel. SO I'm sure the diesel would win out over the 5 cyl.

Thanks for the clarification RUG = Regular Unleaded Gasoline
PUG = Premium Unleaded Gasoline

I live in CT, very close to the NY border. Diesel is consistently priced higher than RUG & PUG here in my neck of the woods.

ruking1

For all we know Ford, Mazda, Honda, GM, Chrysler (anybody else BUT VW) , may make far superior diesel engines over VW's offerings !

ruking1

Indeed using your numbers (which reflect the WAY higher price per gal of diesel) we get cost per mile driven fuel @

.09858 ULSD

.14766 RUG

("110,000/10844 to 16243)

nyccarguy

I agree, the TDI would be my only reason for visiting a VW dealership. If I'm going for a gas powered mid sized, it would most likely be an Accord.

ruking1

Indeed, but the real comparison ( and for my .02cents) tragedy is why no Accord TDI !? In my personal case, I would have gotten a 2004 Honda Civic TDI in a NYC second (pun intended)

michaellno

I recently read that VW will be retiring the 5-cyl gasser for a new and improved version of the 1.8T that has 170HP.

Will be used wherever the 5-cyl was found.

Don't know the EPA numbers for the new engine, but if the 1.8T gets better mileage than the 2.5 5-cyl it may change your math a bit.

I also think you could get a better deal off MSRP for the gasser than for the diesel.

Given your driving habits, I think a diesel makes a lot of sense.

nyccarguy

I also think you could get a better deal off MSRP for the gasser than for the diesel.

There's a very healthy amount of competition in my area. I'm sure either gas or diesel version could be had for invoice minus hold back. The rent around here is mighty high and dealers have to move iron.

dudleyr

1.8t in Passat will get EPA 24-34, city-highway. Stick will get 35 highway. Better.

gagrice

But a 1.8L with 5 speed manual. Isn't that going backward? Will it be able to get out of its own way? The UK version has a 6 speed manual. I guess counting past one hand is considered too much for American drivers. :confuse:

ruking1

From a shorter term perspective, that is good there is a lot of competition. However experiences over 11 years indicates that VW diesels have had a history of being VERY competitive. Even if it were not competitive in your area. There is absolutely nothing that says you can't get your car from the US MARKET inventory.

cdnpinhead

. . . 8 speed M/T's.

This is a new one on me. Any more information?

ruking1

No. In the context of current JSW's "8" speed M/T's is a misprint. It should be 6 speed M/T's.

This 2010 article was a heads up of the 8 speed A/T hitting "other than US markets, as US Audi's still come with 6 speed DSG's. link title

The revolution is literally in full swing as things go from 5 speed M/T to 6 speed M/T. DSG's started off as 6 speed with heads up on 8 speed DSGs. 6 speed A/T's going to 8 speed A/T's. Where it ends up is probably going to be dictated by cost, sales price premiums, durability and reliability among other things. Trying to get the best fuel mileage and performance are a few givens.

gagrice

I think 8 may be the point of diminishing returns. Two gears of overdrive would seem adequate to me.

ruking1

That truly might be so for the US market. I only have a real interest in it because I like cars with M/T's. (7 lifetime so far w/ 995k miles) The M/T (US) market is only 20% of the passenger vehicle fleet and some would say dwindling. On the extreme, some would say good riddance.

As it applies to the mpg DSG 6 speed and the 8 speed A/T, I would SWAG better with a 6 speed M/T over a 6 speed DSG. Further if they come out with an 8 speed (dry sump) DSG, in normal driving, it would edge out a 6 speed M/T. I would even dare say that if the Touareg TDI was equipped with a robust 6 speed manual that I could @ least match the 8 speed A/T. What this would do is let the oem charge and or bury the premium for the A/T, DSG in the price and relegate the M/T to a special order or low cost white elephant.So for example the VW Toureg line comes only with A/T. Right now that would be hard to do for Passat, Jetta, etc.

elias

thanks for the GLK250 details, gagrice. i like nimble/responsive. I wonder if it's more nimble/responsive than a VW tdi sporty-wagon? i probably should drive one of each at some point. Benz dealer is not so convenient like VW dealer however. And with a Benz, one has to be prepared for maaaaaaaaaaaaaany dealer/warranty visits, ya? way more than with a VW, in my experience...

elias

never got into modding my VW TDIs. I suppose I'll just wait for VW to sell a GTD rather than trying to make my own... Some people do like that modding game though.

ruking1

Other than using ULSD, this is like comparing apples to oranges. As to what you will be happy with,?.... a good suggestion to sample both.

It starts with the MSRP difference of app $18,000 to app 1000#'s, which will handle almost COMPLETELY differently. Even the H EPA is a difference of 9 mpg !.

nyccarguy

There is no way that 20% of the vehicles sold in the US are manuals. It has to be less than 10%.

ruking1

Correct if there were 20% sales (yearly), it would be easy to predict GROWTH of M/T's in the vehicle fleet. Again, I did not say SOLD (yearly) . 20% is the best estimate that is IN the passenger vehicle fleet. So the flip side is the majority (80%+) of the passenger vehicle fleet are A/T's.

ruking1

I don't know why I didn't mention it before. Maybe I just assumed the numbers were available to those interested.

In the space where the the VW Touareg over all and TDI specifically the numbers sold in 2012 posted :

VW Touareg 10,553 units
Audi Q7 11,008
Porsche Cayenne 15,545
MB ML 38,101
BMW X5 44,445
Acura MDX 50,854

ruking1

Just fueled the 09 Jetta TDI for 44.78 mpg, NORMAL commute slog on one of the worst highways in the state. Single person driver, NO carpool lane access, as the normal carpooler is on vacay. It would seem with carpool access and another driver driving one leg, we get less mpg ! ????

Can't say I (we are) am complaining , for the logic and execution turns roughly a 29,000 miles and 659 gal yearly requirement (x$4=$2636/12mo= $219. mo) to 14,000 miles and 318 gals ( x $4 per gal= /2= $636 year/12 mo= $53 mo (fuel only)!! ) , so both sides of the transaction benefit. There are of course other equalizations. The $2,636 is conservative as it assumes the other has a car that gets 44 mpg ALSO.

nyccarguy

So you usually get higher MPG than 44 +? How long is your commute? How many miles/year do you drive? How many miles are on your '09 TDI Jetta? Have you had any problems or had to make any trips back to the dealer?

ruking1

No lower, between 39-44. Time can take between 45 min to 1.75 hrs. per leg, or an range of between 18 mph to 36 mph, 54 miles R/T. 14,000 miles yr as I said is the commute.

Unscheduled maintenance? aka, (problems with the 09 Jetta), head lamp burnt out, R/R'd. Rear brake lights burnt out R/R'd 2 lamps free.

Normal TSB's done @ the dealer:
#2 fuel injector line (vibration dampened),
ecm ref lashed for 02 sensor wonkiness (technical term) .
Stupid YELLOW stickers put around fuel door and cap.
drive train warranty extended to 10 years/100,000 miles.

nyccarguy

Cool. And even at 14K miles per year, the cost of the diesel Jetta compared to an '09 gas Jetta (normally aspirated) works out for you? You said diesel costs the same (or cheaper) than regular by you?

ruking1

I am not sure what you are asking? We have been doing the 14,000 miles commute slog for @ least 15 years (210,000 miles) using diesels for easily 10 years for this slog. (154,000 miles to put some scale to it) The 2004 Prius was easily 7,000 more than the 03 Jetta TDI and really only got 44 mpg (absolutely nothing wrong with 44 mpg) while the Jetta TDI ranged from 48-52 mpg.

So if www.fueleconomy shows a 09 VW Jetta 2.0 T getting 28.4 mpg yearly gal would be 493 @ $4 PUG or $1,972. vs 318 gal @ 4 or $1,272 (175 gals saved). or savings of $700 year 58.33 mo to do the same work. (14,000 miles)

So if the average age of the passenger vehicle fleet is 9.5 to 10.5 years (given this so called consistent commute) and 700 per year the numbers make me ask would I rather spend 6,650 to 7,350 more during that time or ........ NOT. Hopefully, I (we) made the right choices (it is actually less as long as the commuter gig lasts (maybe pick up another commuter) .

Now this falls under TMI but I wish the higher mpg diesels were let into the country. But another poster actually defacto shows WHY they do not let them IN. So that folks will buy Honda's, Toyota's GM FORD and Chrysler etc.,etc. cars that get FAR less mpg and use more gasoline RUG/PUG, i.e. REVENUES !

Most to all states penalize use of (LESS relative to RUG/PUG) ULSD by much higher percentage taxations and stiffer requirements (higher layered costs) @ that the costs is normally higher per mile driven than like model diesels.

nyccarguy

Like I said before, I'm really curious about the prospect of (possible) diesel ownership. You seem to have some excellent, real world ownership experience & seem to be a good source of information. I'm not knocking you or trying to troll. I've been a member on TH since before they reset the date clocks.

My company's truck is actually a diesel. It's a 2006 Mitsubishi Fuso FE180 with a 14' box. My only modern diesel driving experience is with a 2011 BMW 335d that I had for a few days while my 328xi was in for service. The diesel's torque and mid range power were absolutely addictive. As a bonus, I got a full 10 mpg better without even trying. The range was equally impressive. I could've easily gotten 500+ miles out of a tank where as my current car gets maybe 350 to a tank.

My 2 biggest problems with the 335d were the price tag (well over 50K when equipped like my 328xi) & it's only offered in RWD.