What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

flightnurse

Right now it seems that EVERY MB GLK 250 in inventory are loaded with any array or combination of options. This has the effect of making any MSRP much higher than the standard accessories $ 38,590. Indeed the one I test drove was app 52k and they were dealing app 48k +. Another is if you like any other color (of 12) than black, white and red, the minimum bump is $720.

I have to agree with you, however, this was not the case a month ago, here in Phoenix two of the MB dealers had basically base GLK250s on the lots, MSRP was $42K, today, fully loaded prices between 48 to 52K, ouch....

ruking1

Best I have done with Safeway ULSD is get .50 cents gal off. More normal is .20 to .35 cents. So what are some of the tricks?

Off topic USLD local is 4.11, In a resort town 3.79. (Diesel) RANGE will let me pretty much fuel anywhere I want. So for a 26.4 gal tank with .32 difference that is a savings of 8.32 per tank. If I get .20 cents that is another $5.20 per tank. TMI is : I also get 5% on the CC so that would drop another .19 cent a gal or -4.93 per 26 gal tank full.

stever

I think I managed .28 cents off one time with our local IGA program. I probably could get more but they changed the program so you have to buy what's on special to get the discount and that stuff is often junk I don't use or eat.

ruking1

This is done with gassers also, but in the context of this diesel thread, this gives diesels a bad name. Most of the stuff that is included in these options, I don't want or is marginally useful at BEST: gasser, diesel, hybrid, plug in electrical etc.. Now if one is of the opinion they (these options) are the epitome of best thing since sliced bread, it's good, albeit, way expensive. One will come to find out, it hikes the per mile cost of ownership/depreciation WAY WAY higher.

stever

Question of the day:

Why exactly do diesel cars weight much more than gas versions?

ruking1

If for example, you know the weight of your gasser's engine, normally you are WAY past TMI and know how to get the TDI's engine weight.

To use one like model snapshot, a VW Touareg V6 gasser tips the scales @ 4,711#'s. The TDI comes in @ 4,974 #'s or 263#'s heavier. (PLUS + 5.6%) The gasser posts 265# ft of torque, the TDI posts 406 # ft, for 53+% MORE # ft of torque. For a (like model) gasser to post the same torque as a diesel would almost require thousands more in upgrades and mpg would suffer all the more. This of course would add weight, which is unknown on an aftermarket basis. So while in this (real world) example, 263 #'s is an "exact" number: how it is EXACTLY distributed does NOT jump out. It is of course easy to swag that components taking a lot of stress get bulked up.

Needless to say, if the TDI can be lighter ( MINUS-263 #'s, aka same as a gasser), it should get even BETTER mpg. OEM's seldom (if ever do a weight/per component breakdown, even in OEM shop and technical manuals, let alone a gasser/diesel comparison (probably opaque to maintain/shield proprietary design data). So data searches are a bit like looking for needles in a haystack.

Then TDI's from a mpg perspective, are even more impressive as TDI's carry both heavier weights, posts way higher # ft of torque, and STILL gets better mpg than like model gassers.

Gimmestdtranny covers the "macro" components.

nyccarguy

Our 2011 Honda Pilot would be an ideal candidate for a diesel engine. There's only so much Honda can do with regards to fuel economy with the current V6 gas engine/transmission combinations. My major complaint about the Pilot isn't the gas mileage (I bought it for the space, not the fuel economy), but the range. I drove from my house in CT today to Philadelphia, then from Philly to Arlington, VA (right outside DC). We drove approximately 300 miles and my distance to empty tells me I've got 60 miles to go. I averaged 20 mpg on the trip which included me setting my cruise at 70 and hitting some heavy DC PM rush hour traffic. Overall, not too bad by our pilots standards, but a vehicle this size should be able to go 500 - 600 miles per tank.

I also saw a Golf TDI that I liked today. Silver 4 door with Black 5 Spoke VW wheels. Very sharp looking.

ruking1

Indeed no (turbo diesel) joy no matter how logical a progression that would be ! I was reading the Honda Pilot and Acura MDX share the Honda Odyssey (minivan) platform. Indeed the mpg numbers sound similar. To improve on those numbers for 2014, they redesigned the Acura MDX to run on the RDX platform. Honda Pilot remaining relatively unchanged for 2014 MY. It would seem the fuel economy was a front burner issue, now at EPA H 28 UP from 21 (Honda Pilot being 25 EPA H). It remains to be seen what the real world figures will be.

ruking1

Never would guess where the % of no insurance is HIGH ?

stever

Move a ZIP code or two outside the city and those rates drop by half or more.

Move to Idaho and those rates will drop by half again.

Ask me how I know. :sick:

In the (updated) news, Why Hybrids and Diesels Don't Always Save You Money.

fintail

Interesting, but I think the fuel price relationships are way off there. I've had my diesel car for almost 6 months now, and not once has diesel been near premium - most of the time it has been closer to regular. For a car that requires premium, it seems like an easy choice.

ruking1

Indeed it is ! I know of none to few cars that "require" premium to really get "good " mpg. In the case of diesels, " like for like" model cars using premium gets FAR less mpg and percentage. Of course, any car can register the effects of "hyper miling".

Now I am not sure if this is off topic and or TMI or both, but I read a financial article saying (upshot) one of the reasons that RUG to PUG prices are so (record) HIGH is not only because it is a DE FACTO tax on anybody that either wants to or has to use it, but since there are less demands for them, AND the fact there is too much inventory chasing too few buyers: that (domestic) refineries are shipping inventories OVERSEAS rather than take a "hit in prices" (like they have been doing for years with diesel inventories) !!!!! Ergo driving up the prices for RUG/PUG: (no good deeds go unpunished)

fintail

And for highline cars, premium fuel is needed to take advantage of the high feature engines - and on tuned models, premium is not just recommended, it is required. For highline cars that even recommend premium, the running costs comparisons need to be made with premium vs diesel, not regular vs diesel. Even if an engine can run on regular, the experience will be as intended with premium.

ruking1

Yeah, I really scratch my head on this one. Why get a car which premium (PUG) is recommended or required and use RUG??? Incidentally both a higher volume and percentage use PUG (estimated to be 9% of the passenger vehicle fleet) than diesel (5%).

fintail

I also wonder about the longterm consequences of using RUG in a PUG car, and the mentality of someone who will pay 50K+++ for a car and then cheap out on the gas. Not the used car I would want, anyway.

gagrice

Agreed on using RUG where PUG is needed. When my wife loans out her LS400 to family she always puts a big note on the dash. Premium only. I doubt it has had anything else in 24 years. Even with ULSD I would only use a name brand like Shell Chevron or BP. I think all the mileage records have been set using Shell Diesel.

ruking1

But, could it use a great diesel (3.0 L TDI?) engine? 14 Impala? GREAT progress, but who really knows? More importantly, who really cares?

fintail

That would be an interesting move. Does GM have a suitable diesel to drop into the Impala? Would be a way to exploit a niche without a lot of investment .

fintail

I have used Chevron solely since I got the car - the price is good and I am used to Chevron gasoline.

ruking1

Yes, the "platform" has been 'proven" for a while, Cadillac STS (2005 to 2011) being one example, albeit HIGHER MSRP. It even could support a HP V-8 option. So in that sense, GM has already shot it in the head (no 2012 STS platform) and used the "bone yard" for burial. Kudo's to whomever dug it out of the grave and recycled the platform ! (from a financial point of view: fully depreciated, amortized, profited already) It (V-6) got the same CR (outstandingly HIGH ) marks as the MUCH higher end Tesla @ 95/100 points. Edmunds.com almost gave the I4 a used dishwater rating (not in those words) . Clearly (to me anyway), the I4 was mated to the platform so they could rate it @ the EPA H mpg of 31. So I am thinking given your 3.0 TDI/Blue Tec engine experiences and my arm chaired SWAG from my Touareg aka 3.0 TDI experiences, the STS/Impala platform with a 3.0 L TDI would indeed be a formidable diesel competitor (large economy sedan) with an easy EPA H of 30 to 35 mpg. I do understand we are talking Frankenstein like (not pejorative) experimentation.

fintail

Maybe Opel has a suitable engine in their stable. A midsize diesel would be optimal, like it is for the Germans. Or they could really trailblaze and make a diesel hybrid model.

ruking1

While the full sized sedan is in a "dying" (LARGE CAR) segment, the majority of the PV fleet are STILL large cars (app 65-70%). This new Chevrolet Impala (IF TDI ) MIGHT be a new metric for a possible large car segment revival. I think if you get a good percentage to report 35 to 40 mpg @ 55 to 65 mph( for a large car)... that is really tall cotton.

Using Gagrice as an example. IF they got 30-35 (40 even) mpg in a Lexus LS 400 TDI, why would they want to get rid of it?

As for the diesel hybrid, not many folks even know the VW offers Touareg in a gasser hybrid. FAR FAR less % of Touareg buyers BITE and some of the gasser hybrids are being sold with even steeper discounts to good discounts. So for example current 13 VWT inventory indicates 24/1327 or 1.8%. The math at almost any level does not seem to be there. AND this is not the vilified DIESEL! aka it is a gasser hybrid in one of the largest WW gasser hybrid market, that really is not a high volume product nor are the low volumes...selling.

elias

Some reasons to have a car which recommends premium, and then use regular in it for 3 of 4 seasons, are:

Engines for which premium is recommended will run on 87 octane just as well as premium. this is as per their design&spec.
87 octane delivers same monstrous power in 3 of the 4 seasons, for these normally aspirated engines
87 octane delivers better mpg for highway cruising. (it has a bit more energy content per gallon)
87 octane costs less than premium.

The placebo effect is not worth 50 cents more (or whatever) per gallon!

None of the above is relevant for an engine which *requires* premium unleaded. Just for those that *recommend*.

I've put about about half a million miles on "premium recommended" V8 cars so far, from 1984 until today, about half with 87 octane and half with premium.

in USA there many hundreds of thousands of example cars like that. maybe a million on the roads altogether?!? chevy camaro, corvette, pontiac firebird&GTO.

in diesel news, i seem to be shopping for a vehicle that can carry 6+ american-sized adults in comfort, could be either new or used... And I would pay a *premium* for one with diesel engine.... I wonder if am going to end up with a diesel GM passenger van i did a quick testdrive of a GMC acadia last weekend...

fintail

A high output diesel hybrid - like something linked to the powerful MB 250 series unit - would be ideal. Diesels do great on the highway but barely beat gassers in gridlock. Hybrids shine in the city but are unhappy on the highway. Seems like a logical combination to me.

ruking1

I would not question the logic. My issue has always been the price/performance ratio. So to me in the case of a (practical) commute car Do I want a commute car that can do highway (i.e, Prius), or do I want a highway car that can do commute( Jetta TDI).

Now that the cat is out of the bag, that we are the foremost world wide energy producer and the energy technology leader, natural gas cars are also another logic. (among many many other potentials)

Natural gas products are not new. 39 years ago I managed a (smaller) fleet of natural gas products. This included a fleet (even smaller) of plug in electrical tow vehicles.

ULSD can also be "refined" from natural gas.

So here is some good news link title

monksterman

Well then it seems one of your choices should include the M and R class BluTec's from MBZ.

Have you driven either??

fintail

I want even more - something that is decent in the commute, good on the highway (which includes good range), and has some power behind it as well. Modern diesels can do a lot of that, and low speed help would perfect it. Something like a C or E diesel that could do say 30-35 city, 45+ highway, and still be a comfortable "nice" car with ample torque would be ideal.

I have no experience with natural gas cars.

Funny about the price fluctuations - I've been relatively untouched by them since I got the Bluetec - Diesel fuel has been pretty steady, always a bit below premium, mostly closer to regular.

michaellno

Funny about the price fluctuations - I've been relatively untouched by them since I got the Bluetec - Diesel fuel has been pretty steady, always a bit below premium, mostly closer to regular.

In addition to the savings per tank (vs. PUG that your previous car took), do you find yourself filling up less frequently as well?

elias

Benzes are so expensive but I'm looking for used ones, 2007 R or GL might be ideal but there are so few of them in USA.

i' haven't driven a current Benz but I owned a Y2K wagon. I'd driven a previous-gen M-class (2001 maybe?) . I hated it.
I had 04 volvo XC90 and found it vastly superior to the Benz M.
Does M-bluetec have nice 3rd row now? It would be great to not pay $50k for a vehicle.

2004 Volvo XC90 was way better than early/mid 2000s Benz M.
XC90 3rd row way too small/cramped for adults, not enough air back there.

Latest thing I'm looking at is the 6 passenger pick up trucks, two rows of 3 seats. Dodge even has a DIESEL one of those available this fall. RAM 1500 DIESEL seats 6...

fintail

Not really, as I am driving more now that I have a new car, an excuse to enjoy the newness and the toys etc. But I'd guess the mileage is literally 50%++ better, combined with cheaper fuel, I am definitely spending less in fuel per mile. Of course, I have a car payment again...but you can't take it with you, I guess :shades:

gagrice

Does M-bluetec have nice 3rd row now?

It is a 5 passenger vehicle. The R is gone and the GL bluetec demands premium over MSRP. Spent most of my morning test driving and talking about a lease on the ML350 Bluetec. The advantages to a lease over cash has yet to show itself to me. On a $58k ML BTC with $5000 down the monthly is $899.62. That is for 36 months, 12k per year. Residual $35,988. Or about $12,000 for the pleasure of leasing a MB. I would have to be getting about 7% per year return on my $58,000 in cash to break even. So maybe someone can tell me the advantage to leasing. I don't see it.

stever

If you get tired of it in three years (Sequoia?), you dump it.

Of course gas will be $6 a gallon in three years, so you could just sell the ML350 then and profit. :shades:

ruking1

That is $1.04 per mile driven:cost of ownership/depreciation, if I did the math correctly.

ruking1

Here is a no brainer as a TDI candidate ! ? That is especially true if it meets reliability and durability metrics going forward.

14 ? Dodge Ram 1500

flightnurse

There are tax advantages to leasing if you can write it off, if not, leasing a diesel doesn't seem to make a smart deal, plus in leasing the goal is put down the least amount of cash as possible, usually 1st payment and tax and license. The 5K you posted is very high for out of pocket on a lease, I'm sure there is cap reduction in that down payment.

flightnurse

Exactly, I have been waiting for a diesel in a 1/2 ton truck for 20 years...

ruking1

Indeed that is my understanding also.

However there are ZERO % down and ZERO % loans to BUY. ( to a little more than that i.e., .09%) In effect (if one is a "qualified" borrower), one can drive off the lot with just a signature, aka the only thing better than nothing down and a ZERO % loan is the dealer paying you to drive one off the lot ? NOT !!!! In most normal cases the first payment is due the first month after you ink the deal.

Again under the TMI category, if one has worked it out correctly (IRS section 179 protocols) , the biggest problem one can have doing this is to overcome the taxes due on sale of a used TDI (60 mo hence) on resale ! Would it not be cool if problems could be like this !!

gagrice

I spent all morning looking at lease calculators. It looks to me like Mercedes is way off the mark. Though he did say it was negotiable. I just don't think as far as I would be willing to go. I sent him an email stating I would go $0 down with $750 per month for 36 months including TTL. I don't think there is a chance they will accept the offer. We are back to looking for a Touareg TDI Lux. My wife prefers the seats in the Touareg after our test drive yesterday in the ML. It is a nice vehicle. Just not worth anymore to me than the Touareg Lux. It does not look like Mercedes is dealing much on bluetec MLs or GLs. So we may just wait until the 2014 Touaregs come out unless some industrious VW Sales person comes up with one we like. Or if the Jeep GC Diesel makes it and they are willing to deal. The Sequoia will be gone in a week. So every month without a 3rd vehicle saves money on insurance. :shades:

gagrice

If you get tired of it in three years (Sequoia?), you dump it.

Already spoken for. My wife's grand daughter wants it bad and will get an exceptional deal. Family you know.

My question? What is the best month of the year to buy? I know the end of the month is best. My phone and email the last couple days will attest to that.

stever

On a rainy full moon on the last day of the month in December fifteen minutes before closing.

When to Buy Your Next Car

flightnurse

In a lease DO NOT SHOP PRICE........

What is the negotiated price, what is the Money Factor, and what is the residual, those are the three things you need to know.

Here on Edmunds go to th MB ML buying/leasing forum and get the currently money factor and residual for the ML bluetec. Of course the money factor that is quoted there will be for top tier credit. Have that info will help when you talk to the dealer.

Again, if you can't take the tax advantages for leasing do not lease...

fintail

I think a lot of people lease who can't take advantage of the tax incentives (more failed trickle down nonsense) - what makes the difference to me in a lease is how often you want a new car vs resale values. For someone who wants a new car every ~3 years and likes quickly depreciating models, a lease could be cheaper.

gagrice

The idea of having a new car every 3 years is a big part of why I am looking at leases. Writing off the lease is nice unless you pay more than you save in taxes. I can just claim the business miles or depreciate. I told the dealer he lost me when I add up the total cost of the lease and it comes out over $12k above the depreciated value of the vehicle. The $35,987 they show as residual is about the trade-in value of a 3 year old ML350 Bluetec today. Dealer price is over $40k. That means on a $58k MSRP it has gone down in value by $22k. My out of pocket for the 36 months would be $38,232. That is a heck of a good return for Mercedes. Tax, title and License is less than $2200. I got an email back that if he gets a solid green light from me he can whittle it down a lot. I have not responded. My wife likes the Touareg better. VW is offering $0 down and 0% interest for 60 months. That may be the best way to go if we can even find one we want. Had one located in Ventura CA. Dealer called and said it was one of 3 vehicles stolen and when they got it back it was trashed.

ruking1

I actually did that one year (Dec 23 if I remember correctly) . Further as I recall , they wanted me to take the car off the lot THAT night. For whatever reason they gave me an extra $100/200 because it was not detailed and told me to bring it back at my convenience for detailing.

stever

I did that with my '99 van. Shopped around Christmas and did the deal - it was registered on 12/31/1998. Figured I got a deal since I was helping the dealer make quota.

My salesguy told me a few weeks later that the "year-end" for Nissan for dealer bonus purposes at the time was January 7th.

So I still left plenty of money on the table.

ruking1

I think that if you are at all serious about a "DEAL" on a 13 VW Touareg TDI, you might want to give a little bit on the saddle brown leather (rette also) interior option. While beautiful, it is indeed an outlier option. Some guy on another web site is making the color combination of midnight blue and saddle brown leather interior a point of departure for debating ! ? Midnight Blue is ANOTHER outlier option. So together with the saddle brown leather interior, it is an outlier's outliers' option. Put that together with a Sport, Luxury, Executive trim level and you add another layer of "OUTLIER"

Sure, waiting for the 14's are an option, but really you will in all likelihood wait till this time NEXT year for a similar to maybe better deal. But then at the same time, that might be just fine with you both.

Another heads up is in SLC, Utah, Strong VW, I have read is cutting deals. This is NOT to imply others are not !! A guy I advised when he was getting his FIRST (2012) Touareg TDI, just picked up child #2 there, and his experiences are being documented on that same web site. FYI, his last FILL posted 35 mpg. This is @ severe altitudes (9,900+ ft) and break in.

Current "lux" es inventory 170/ 569. So again TMI: of the most likely colors, White (35), Silver (18) Gray (23) (you had mentioned you didn't like DARK colors, so I left off the dark colors Lux's) you need to drill down on saddle brown outliers.

gagrice

I have talked to the Internet manager at Strong SLC. They had a white Lux with saddle brown in stock. Could not match the local price, and he quit calling me. I have 3 local dealers looking for a light color and may accept different interior. I have them at $48,304 on MSRP of $55,170. I don't think the VW lease is very good so will probably go with the $0 down 0% interest for 60 months. Mercedes is not even close on discount or terms. To match the Lux standard features in a ML350 Bluetec would have an MSRP of $62,310. Most the dealer thinks he can get off of MSRP is $2000. At that we are still $12k less for the possibly superior Touareg. I know the electronics are easier and more robust in the VW. 12 way adjustable seats in the VW vs 8 way in the MB. The biggest plus with the ML is the capacity in back is larger.

ruking1

VW Langhorne in PA has a saddle brown white lux. Ask for the guy who is handling TDI Club sales in Chris's absence.

gagrice

Just got off the phone with local dealer. Claims there is one up near you he has access to. Same price he quoted me before his got shipped off to another dealer. $0 down 0% available through end of month. I told him with that deal he has a sale.

crkyolfrt

Hey, that's great to hear! Some definitive plans..must feel good..Sounds like you will likely have it within the week if some dirt bag doesn't steal it first. I swear I could pull the trap door catch for THIEVES. How our lives are complicated and the utter expense on top of it all...all because society coddles the thief. I'm in favour of 40 lashes, then a month later, capital punishment after ONE get-outta-jail-free-card is used up. Watch our theft crime rates fall then. Especially once the word spreads about the long lasting memories of those lashes..

Anyway...on a much more positive note..Will look forward to some more indepth and detailed reports after a few miles behind the wheel. Congrats!