What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

fintail

The upcoming E250 Bluetec will be available in 4Matic. BMW and Audi are set to bring over 5er/A6 diesels too - those should might exist in AWD. Is another 3er diesel in the works for this market? I still have no confirmation of an upcoming C diesel.

gagrice

I think BMW is going to offer some 4 cylinder diesels very soon. The BMW X5 35D I drove was a power house. I imagine the 335D was a lot more with the same engine. If you want an AWD I sure would go check out the GLK250 Bluetec. They can be had in the $40k range.

nyccarguy

I know Germany's "big 3" are coming out with AWD diesels at lower price points with 4cyls & such. My problems are that I'd like to keep my budget under $30K for my next ride & I do not like how the current crop of 3s & 5s drive.

rockylee

53.6 MPG with AC on is pretty damn impressive. Range 816 miles on one tank of gas and on the way back on this trip the car was pushing over 56 MPG's..... General Motors has done it!!!!

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f70/gmi-chevrolet-cruze-diesel-challenge-verd- - ict-121562/#post2766458 :shades: :shades: :shades: :shades:

-Rocky

P.S. My next ride will be a Cruze Diesel

ruking1

..."I'm not knocking you or trying to troll."..

No, I didn't think either. The way I read your question, I wanted to answer what you were REALLY asking.

..."My 2 biggest problems with the 335d were the price tag (well over 50K when equipped like my 328xi) & it's only offered in RWD"...

Combine with your later budget post, any 4 cylinder TDI would probably be a better fit. I absolutely LOVED the BMW 335 D !! What a touring machine ! But you may or may not agree that would be total overkill and a sore mismatch for a 54 miles R/T daily commute. Just replacement tires @ 1000 to 1700 per set every year to 2 years would make no sense at all. For me this is especially true as we got app 114,000 miles (taken down early) from a 3rd rate oem tire but ranked 26/28 on tire rack. The second set is on a 120k miles pace. (Toyo TPT's) So for me, NOT an outlier or fluke.

ruking1

..."My next ride will be a Cruze Diesel "...

I for one am looking forward to hearing about your TD's 100,000 miles experiences. I take it you would agree, we should not hold our collective breath? If one can get 53.6 mpg over all, that would be 1,866 gals consumed. It will be interesting to see what folks post on web sites like fuelly and www.fueleconomy.com post for the Cruze TD. Current stock is 1,127 units. Price range is from $22.6k to $35.1 k.

gagrice

I hope it does well for GM. Diesel does not need a black eye. Took 30 years for people to get over the last GM diesel fiasco. Too bad GM does not build a mid sized SUV with diesel. I am getting tired of waiting for Jeep to get their diesel act together with the perfect sized Grand Cherokee.

fintail

That has me thinking about my next car. Although the cheapo lease on the new car isn't killing me, I probably won't be so extravagant again, unless similar deals exist. I think the newness has worn off a little, and I am used to it. I'll probably move down a size, or just buy an older car.

stever

Time to do a swap a lease thing and head over to Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous.

nyccarguy

Well, there's a part of me that has always lived my car life by David E Davis Jr.'s motto: "no boring cars," but there's also a part of me that thinks I might not need "The Ultimate Driving Machine" for my 65 mile per day, 6 day per week commute.

A set of run flat tires for a BMW really aren't that expensive. 4 Michelin MXM Primacy ZP (zero pressure) for $778.42 including mounting, balancing, & 6.35% CT sales tax.

gagrice

4 Michelin MXM Primacy ZP (zero pressure) for $778.42 including mounting, balancing, & 6.35% CT sales tax.

That was not from the BMW dealer was it? My banker was shocked when he replaced one on his little coupe for $380 at the dealer. And he had to wait 3 days for them to get a tire.

gagrice

I don't think you will get an AWD diesel from anyone for $30k. Edmunds is showing a TMV of $36,458 for a stripped GLK250 Bluetec. If I was commuting that would be my choice without a doubt. I am confident you can get 40 MPG on mostly highway driving. And they do get them at the dealers stripped. They are the latest MB aimed at seducing new people into the Mercedes tent. I really like that little SUV. Until I sell this Sequoia to the wife's grand daughter the GLK is still a possible on the list. If I could get her to part with her 24 year old Lexus LS400 it would probably be parked in that spot in the garage.

ruking1

Is that a comment on getting the MB E "300" series or specifically the MB 350 BLUETEC and/or both?

ruking1

Anybody I know that has a BMW (3 to 7 series) and uses it for commuting comments to complains (might be too strong a word) about frequency of replacement and most about the cost.

But if you have a budget and a need for app 17,000 miles per year, then $450 for a complete set of WELL rated tires for a Jetta TDI is cheaper (42%)? Another way of saying it is the $778 BMW set you mention costs 73% more. The Jetta TDI tire set also lasts app 2 x longer. Needless to say the TDI line Golf/ NB/Jetta Passat TDI comess closer to the mentioned budget range. It has been also my (anecdotal) experiences that @ least the Jettas are well adapted to the commute slog.

For my .02 cents, the Cruze ECO TD is way too new a model. Truly it might be the best Chevrolet and TD EVER built ! Even if that is so, Chevrolet would be smart (like they already are with the Corvette line -50 years +? ) and constantly improve subsequent models.

nyccarguy

No, it was not from a dealer. The price was matched by a local good year tire chain from tire rack.

fintail

About being used to it and kind of over it? The experience of having a new car. It's an excellent car, but the newness isn't as sharp I guess. I have no second thoughts about the diesel, unless one wants a tuned performance car, it doesn't seem to have any negative trade-offs vs a gasser, esp a gasser that needs premium anyway.

xwesx

Thanks for sharing the link, Rocky! It's good that we're getting more options in more classes. Too bad, I think, that it isn't in a hatch or wagon version (yet) and, if I read it right, automatic only? I might be willing to settle for one strike, but not two.

I laughed a little at the author's comments on sweating the fuel economy during the city driving, etc. I find that when I drive my car, I get the same (relatively) fuel economy whether I sweat it or not, so I choose to not sweat it.

On my trip to Palmer and back this weekend, I put down 40 MPG on the way down, and 34 on the way back with a barbecue grill on my cargo tray. The tray didn't make a lick of difference on the way down versus a "normal" trip, but that grill bucked a lot of wind since it was taller than my car. I wouldn't have minded another 10 mpg if it were a diesel!

xwesx

Hahah; you really love that vicarious living, don't you Steve?! :P

ruking1

Judging from the cues in the article, I think he was probably sweating the mpg because he was either not used to driving TD's, nor did he really understand the operational differences between gasser and TD. But I think that it might be easy to come to the conclusion that he posted good numbers, not really knowing the differences in operational parameters and keeping his documented (painfully SLOW) speeds.

ruking1

While not specifically about diesel, the following link is an interesting article on (current) European car sales.

17 year LOW

Nexus ? Might be a good time to buy a diesel ?

Then the FLIP side (US markets)

Pre Recession SPIKE

stever

Well, that probably means more (available) diesels for us. Assuming freight doesn't kill the deal, and the car makers don't just shut the factories instead.

Have to wonder if the current car boom in the US is just a little bubble to recoup from the recession; people may just be replacing their ten year old cars. Car sales could fade again.

ruking1

IF the (PROJECTED) annualized rate hold true @ 15.7 M, then that would be up from (memory) 10.5 M SCRAPED out @ the low (49.5% better).

I read in passing somewhere that there are a segment of folks (cities primarily) that are not buying cars and a fair amount of those that have an older one are NOT replacing them. I would probably agree with you that FADE is @ greater probability than growth.

This morning, I was listening to a group (of talking heads) say that China's leadership is willing to "suck it up" (not their words, but the real code: I say it this way to CUT to the chase) and tough out 5 to 7% growth !!

GEEZZZZZZ. if the US (we) had 3 to 5% growth in the US that would rank close to a modern day US economic miracle !! ?? :shades: There are plenty of Obama ites doing the Gene Wilder interpretation ( in his Frankenstein movie) ITS ALIVE ! ITS ALIVE ! about 1.0% to 2% economic growth !!!!

gagrice

I think the lending bubble transferred to the automobile industry. There is a lot of cash looking to be invested. Offering sub prime auto loans and cheap leases is the current bubble. When you can lease a $50,000 vehicle for $500 a month there is something wrong with that picture. Even with a low interest rate loan the payment should be at least $800 per month. With decent credit you can buy a new car with no money down. That means the minute you drive off the lot you are upside down in that car. I don't expect it to implode like the housing market. But may be short lived.

ruking1

The auto markets might be the perfect place for this solution. Nobody in their right mind expects most cars to appreciate in price. In contrast, before the housing crash, almost every one expected even the worst deals in housing to APPRECIATE.

gagrice

I am now considering leasing either the Touareg TDI Lux or the ML350 Bluetec. Carman says MB has the best leases. Waiting to hear from the dealers. Keep the vehicle for 3 years and get a new one. I have been a cash buyer for so long it is a hard concept to have a monthly payment. Yet when you pencil it out it looks like I would be ahead. Especially if our CPA will let us write off the lease payments.

ruking1

It is always nice to have options. One of the benefits is that diesels tend to depreciate less, both dollar and percentage wise. (theoretically, lower mo payments) Indeed, it even makes more sense if one can take advantage of the IRS section 179 rules also (take depreciation etc, etc., etc.,, AGAIN theoretically decreasing taxable income)

Then, the flip side is a lease turn in will give a shot to a diesel curious buyer albeit @ a lower price. If there is greater demand for (used) diesels, the used (diesel) car prices go premium (over gassers) . So in that sense, diesels have the ability to offer great balances (in the system) higher pricing and greater profits all around. A good example, I am sure is MB offering attractive lease pricing. (ala Fintail's) It would tend to give the dealer handling the lease turn in a much higher profit product. (item)

stever

Comparing the US to much of the EU, it appears that much of our current growth is driven by the auto industry. When all these lease cars hit the market, new sales could slack again. Well actually, we're already seeing easing in used car prices, and I'm sure more lease returns is helping to drive that (in addition to trade-ins from new car buyers)

We just need Gagrice to get off the pot and finally buy a Bluetec and push that number to 3%.

nyccarguy

Even if your CPA tells you you can't write off your lease payments, sometimes you do come out ahead, even if you are a cash buyer. The pumped up residual value (incentive) makes your monthly payment lower than if you were to finance the car traditionally. You can also put down (with certain leasing companies) Multiple Security Deposits which will lower your interest rate (and further lower your monthly payment).

I leased my current 2011 BMW 328xi for 30 months/50K miles. My lease payment is $120/month lower than if I were to finance the car for 60 months. When my lease is up, my car will be worth $1000s less than BMW's stated (pumped up) residual. So if I were to have financed, I'd always be upside down. It'd be interesting to see what kind of program MB is running for the GLK 250 Bluetec (residual %, money factor).

fintail

I can't join in on the lease write-off law (which seems kind of ridiculous, but that's another story), but the German makers often subsidize the leases so strongly, as in your case as well, that the payments are less than real world depreciation. As I am now trying to not become too attached to a car, this might work out well - no strings attached, no reason to become attached.

ruking1

I think that is why knowing what one's monthly to yearly mileage is important. First and foremost is how much one is paying per mile driven, per example (120mo/1667 miles) = .072 cents. This of course is the number to beat.

Much less and one is paying more for CONVENIENCE. Any more, one is (in effect) penalized for overage (USE).

Probably TMI for my first TDI, it is @ .04 cents per mile driven.

nyccarguy

Right you are Fintail. Besides the miles that will be on my car (50K), there are & will be literally thousands like it (2011 328xi) put there with less miles since BMW sold MY 2011 3 series sedans for close to 2 CY. There are 2011 328xis out there NOW that are crossing the block for what BMW said my car will be worth in another year & with double its current mileage. Plus my lease is up at the end of September 2014, when the 2015s will be right around the corner. My car will only be 2 1/2 CY old, but close to 4 MY old. I do love the car & am having a hard time not getting attached.

ruking1

So what is the normal remedy when one becomes "attached" beyond the contract period?

fintail

You can buy it, but it will be a CPO used car and the dealer will be asking top top dollar. Negotiation might not be easy. It'll be a situation where getting into another lease will be a lot cheaper (on a monthly basis) than financing the original car. That's how they get people hooked.

fintail

I suspect something similar will happen with my E-class - with the facelift really making itself known, it will impact resale values, and my residual will be far above market. I wonder if the dealer would try to sell at the lease resale or real world value. Either way, a 2 year old CPO car won't be cheap, esp as I will have below average miles. MB often has a pull forward program around 3 months before lease end - which would be December 2014 for me. Right in time for their December sales event, and new models - maybe a C diesel, maybe a blowout on an unwanted E250 4matic diesel. It will be interesting.

I like my car, but if I was to buy, it would need to be 100% perfect (colors, options - a car I would probably need to special order), and the E has a couple quirks (size, rear deck engineering) that annoy me. I care for the car like I care for cars I own outright, but I am going to try to not go further.

stever

I thought that was the idea of having a residual value - you could buy the car at lease end for the RV (plus any purchase-option fees).

Or did you mean a third party buying your off-lease car?

fintail

On many higher line cars, the stated residual value is more than market value. I don't now how a dealer negotiates that. And yeah, there's another thing - lease termination fee, but waived if you lease another, of course.

nyccarguy

Part of the fun is figuring that out right here on the CHRONIC CAR BUYERS ANONYMOUS.

gagrice

I found after owning the Sequoia for 2-3 years I wished I had something else. As by then the diesel SUVs became more plentiful in CA. I started calculating what it has cost me to own the Sequoia paying cash for it and a payment of $500 per month would be less than my monthly depreciation. So I am thinking I get a 36-39 month lease and get a new SUV when that lease is up. And it is up to the CPA to figure out the taxes. I am waiting to hear what kind of a lease deal VW will give me on the Touareg TDI Lux.

stever

Ah, I see. Edmunds says "You can always try to negotiate a lower price for your leased car. Keep in mind that the leasing company really doesn't want that car back. They would like you to buy it — and might sweeten the deal to tempt you into doing so. Some lease companies firmly refuse to do this. Others are flexible. It doesn't hurt to try."

But from what I've skimmed over the years, not many people are able to negotiate the RV down at lease end. So you have to negotiate it down when you lease. Good luck with that too. :shades:

Back to the topic, Diesel prices up 3.9 cents nationally. (Phoenix Morning Call).

Big whoop, my RUG went from $3.76 last week to $3.89 today, which is more than the diesel national average.

fintail

I've heard the same - they don't like to negotiate it at lease end as they'd rather get you into a new lease. As I've never leased before, I don't have any experience with it. For me personally, I probably wouldn't be able to do much unless the car somehow becomes undesirable - as I am meticulous, it will make exactly the kind of CPO car they want.

I've noticed diesel holding pretty steady here while gasoline has went up. Not the worst thing for me :shades:

fintail

For the chronic car buyer or someone who likes the new feeling, a subsidized lease can be the best thing. No strings, no attachment, warranty peace of mind, and cheaper than regular financing or buying outright and taking the huge first few year depreciation hit.

I don't notice too many Touareg diesels on the road - I think I might have seen a GLK diesel, I was walking by the front of one idling, and it had a clattery noise - but DI can sound like that too. I like an engine that sounds a little alive, I don't want something completely silent.

gagrice

I have a history of keeping vehicles 6-7 years. Being that most are PU trucks they still bring top dollar. Every time I go in the garage and look at the 24 year old Lexus I don't want to be looking at the Sequoia that long. Wife is ready to give it to grand daughter for cheap. So that is my opportunity to change our mode of operation. She likes the lease idea. Our credit score is very high with no payments but our small mortgage. So it looks like a good match. Another thing to consider. I have bought the extended warranty on the last two vehicles. What a waste of money. Lease the car for the normal warranty and get a new one. Not getting any younger. I have never been attached to a vehicle for very long.

fintail

Yeah, pickup resale is something different. Cars and even some SUVs don't work the same.

I might try to sell the Lexus to an enthusiast rather than giving it to someone who probably won't care for it. Would be a shame to have it survive so nice for so long and then be ran into the ground.

You could probably sell the Sequoia privately for a bit more than trade-in and invest those proceeds, lease the new car, enjoy it. Like you say, not getting any younger, live a little, experience a modern diesel :shades:

gagrice

The Sequoia is spoken for by my wife's step grand daughter. She has a growing family. We will sell it to her for low BB. No big deal. The LS400 would probably bring $5000 from someone that would appreciate it. I don't think giving it to a family member would be wise. The ones we would give it to cannot afford the maintenance. I would clear out the garage and buy a GLK250 Bluetec and lease a larger SUV for road trips.

xwesx

What is the stated residual on your car?

gagrice

Supposedly VW cuts the price in half and the lease payments are half divided by 39 months. Based on MSRP the dealer says $719 per month plus tax which is 8.75%. Around $780 per month. More than I would pay. Using Edmunds TMV on the vehicle I am looking at, with the VW formula it would be about $695 with tax. Plus $4000 up front. Too much.

PS
At the end of the lease you can buy for half price. Not sure it would be worth that much.

fintail

I want to say something like 44K-ish, I can't remember exactly.

fintail

Sell it to her for trade in value, she wins, and you don't lose. The LS is heading for what Europeans call a "youngtimer" - kind of a modern vintage car. If it details out really mint, someone will want it. Genuinely nice early ones are getting harder to find.

I assume your other half drives - she'd probably prefer the GLK size, too.

gagrice

It is kind of a win win situation on the Sequoia. I don't have to list it and deal with anyone on the sale. On the LS400 it is what you would expect a 24 year old luxury car to look like that has always been garaged and only has 105k miles. The issues are the LCD display for radio and heater are no longer visible. The leather has some cracking on the drivers seat. After my wife read online that it is one of the 5 best vehicles ever built she decided she wanted to keep it. She has not driven it 30 miles in the last year. I drive it to town to keep the battery charged. I don't like driving low slung cars at all. Friends an family have put most of the miles on it the last 5 years. It is kind of a loaner vehicle when family comes to town. Better that than the Sequoia.

I think the GLK would make a great day to day driver. It may be great on a long trip. Just no way to know without buying or leasing one. It is Not as comfortable and roomy up front as the ML & Touareg.

ruking1

This Lexus has mint barn find stamped on the windshield !