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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    For fast depreciators like E class and 5ers, a lease can make sense unless you want to keep it for more than 5 years. And once the warranty is up, those cars can be worrisome. I'd buy a car like my Bluetec if I special ordered it and made it exactly to my spec. But if I just choose one off the lot - a lease can work. So long as my income/employment looks OK when this lease is up (always a little worried in this dumbed down new world), I will probably do it again. Maybe lower miles this time, as even with my trying to drive more, I am not going to approach the limit, I simply lack the time.

    Oh yeah, drove about 250 miles in the past day, mileage was a something around 42.3, IIRC.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Pure financial logic has determined my route. I cannot see any lease that gives me a fair break on my taxes. The Mercedes lease is over 7% based on the entire purchase price. That made no sense to me. The Sales person called me and said that was just a starting point. I told him I wanted his bottom line. I don't play games with car salesmen and especially their mini brained managers. If VW comes through at 13% under MSRP with $0 down and 0%, they will have a customer. If not, I will still have two vehicles and a lower insurance bill. At 70 years old it is MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.

    I can write off my miles and end up with a better tax return than with a lease deduction. 56.5 cents per mile for business trips. If I get 30 mpg that is only 13 cents a mile for diesel. Better to take the mileage than expenses.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited July 2013
    Maybe I need to start a fakey little (on paper) business, hire an accountant, and take advantage of this scheme :shades:


    On the diesel subject, I read on a MB forum that someone is claiming yet again that a C250 diesel is coming to the US. I hope it's more than a rumor. That car would be ideal - lower price, lighter weight - with that engine would be a 50mpg highway runner I bet.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Buy some foreclosed real estate around the USA and spend your vacations working on them. You can write off all your travel expenses. Of course you do have to pay taxes on all the profit you make when you sell the houses. Best to buy in places you like to visit. ;)

    The MB salesman mentioned a C class diesel coming. The day we were there a fellow was being shown all the intricacies of the SLS gull wing he was leasing. I was told he only has a short time to live and wants to live it to the max. $5000 per month for 24 months. $250k car. It was nice but not much room for luggage. He had two suitcases sitting on the back seats. Only new gull wing I have seen up close.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,496
    C250 diesel coming soon? Uh oh, that means blow out prices on the current C Class next summer (conveniently when my lease is up). Must resist temptation to take advantage of cheapo long term financing rates, mega rebates, & loads of conquest cash on the outgoing model. Must keep telling myself to stay within budget...AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited July 2013
    As a example, Detroit can SURELY use a hand. Its' scale of self inflicted destruction (the results of its 50+ years of democrats rule/dominance) probably dwarfs both coastal New Jersey AND New Orleans together, caused naturally. This is not to ignore or gloss over many many many other places.

    Indeed that (R/E) is one logical way. It is not "fakey fakey" for those that conceive of those issues THAT way. That is unless one likes to pay "real real" x 2 l taxes as one is "anointed " to do. But hey even that is ok !! But if one choses to NOT, don't wait until the AMT kicks. The so called " 48%" can't be wrong ! ;) Guy's/parties like Romney/'s, can't figure out how to get a significant portion of their votes even as a significant portion of that "minority" group votes republican ANYWAY !! This is ironic as GB 2 and the republicans were largely responsible for the low to no taxes they enjoy. Hmmm ....Might be a reason why they lost ! ?

    Indeed I was impressed with the local MB dealer and or representative. The information conveyed was literally non stop and that was on the "kick the tires" first trip. :shades:
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    CNET, which normally reviews all things electronics has an interesting write up on the MB GLK 250 Blue Tec.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    There will be blowouts on the C250 for sure - leases under $300 on base cars should be easy to find. Although lowline, apparently they aren't bad cars either, just kind of plain - why buy a MB without the gadgets? I wonder if they will hold off on the diesel for the new model, which is apparently a little larger and more upmarket.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited July 2013
    I have a 40+ hour a week job, no time to rebuild houses - the market is hot locally so no bargains in my area, no relatives to employ either. But it would be nice to have the gubbamint subsidize visits to my kin :shades: ...I mean legitimate business expenses!

    That seems like a crazy lease rate on the SLS, crazy high. I've seen C63 leases for under $700, and S-class in the $1000 neighborhood. A car that costs 2.5x shouldn't lease for 5x. I like his attitude though, you can't take it with you. I'm not going to work for decades, live like a miser, and then leave to some dopes to blow on toys.

    I suspect the C diesel will be with the W205 for 2015.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Anyone who thinks Detroit's collapse is just because of Dems needs to study economics again. There are ample amounts of poor corrupt locales who like to vote red. More proof that no matter who wins the vote, the same results take place.

    The FIRE industries are fakey in their benevolence.

    Depending on the salesperson, sometimes info should be doublechecked. If initial stories I heard were true, a diesel C would be on the road here now.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    why buy a MB without the gadgets?

    For the badge.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Good point. I am not one of those consumers, it didn't come to mind.

    If I wanted a car with ordinary features, I'd get a more mainstream car. But I like the toys, the details, which is why the Bluetec I chose was relatively loaded.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,496
    No C250s in the northeast. C300 4Matics only (should be C350, but I digress). My BMW has a lot of options - Nav, Sirius, Heated Seats, Htd Steering Wheel, Lthr, Bi-Xenon Headlights... The thing I love most is the handling, the way the straight 6 sings, the insanely powerful brakes. My favorite option has got to be the Xenon headlights.

    If I could find a C300 4Matic with Xenons that's not loaded to the gills for a low down dirty price, then maybe, just maybe...

    I swear every Passat I see on the road is a TDI (just to stay on topic).

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited July 2013
    Lots of C250 here, could probably get one for ~30K or so if you negotiated shrewdly. They are pretty basic, but are solid - platform is old and any bugs are gone.

    If I ever end up with a C diesel, I want the toys - pano, keyless go, LED/xenons, nav, premium sound, parktronic, etc etc etc - not easy to find a C like that.

    On that diesel note, I don't see a ton of E350 Bluetecs out there - it might be 1:10. And even fewer high option (P2 which includes a lot -adaptive xenon/LED, keyless go, premium sound, nav, auto trunk, etc), pano, lane departure, parktronic, etc diesel cars like mine. The uncommon aspect might make me want to keep it at the end of the lease - rarity has value to me.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Just got back from signing all the papers. Got the low USAA price on the Touareg TDI Lux. In white with saddle brown leather. The Lux is loaded enough for me with Xenons, Pano, NAV, Sirius, etc etc. MSRP $55,170 sale price $49,804, which is below Edmund's TMV by close to a grand. With CA 8% tax and heavy duty license fees the total was $54k and change. He asked how much we wanted to put down. I said how much do we need to put down. I figured we would have to pick up the TTL at least up front. He said nothing if you don't want to. Fine let's go with Zero down. Out the door $905.03 per month first payment due in middle of September. Zero percent financing. I think that $0 dn, 0% is only through July. And they have to pick up the Touareg in Flagstaff and deliver here to San Diego. Should have it by Thursday. It actually blew me away as we had our checkbook along for some kind of down payment.

    We really do like the ML350 Bluetec also. The bottom line is $12k more to match the amenities in the Lux TDI. That and poor lease/financing terms at Mercedes. And the salesman bragged they would never give those kind of terms to sell a vehicle. Maybe Daimler should think about it. VW is kicking theirs and all the other automaker's butt, when it comes to net profit. Give good value and you will make good profit. The new Passat according to an article at the dealership is outselling Camry and Accord World wide.

    Now the long wait till Thursday.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Voting "red " is one thing, getting one elected is another. What good one or two reds can do is WAY another. So for example in CA the demos are "worried" because they can lose the overwhelming majority, aka they have raised taxes at their leisure without Republican votes.

    So I take it you are ok with paying more taxes and do not want to take part in "legitimate" deductions ! ? Again I am ok with that also.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited July 2013
    Congratulations !!

    I am looking forward to hearing your longer term take on the 13 VW T Luxury TDI.

    This is probably TMI: I have read in passing (this is not advertised) but the 240 hp/406 # ft vs 225 hp/406 # ft is due to some LESS friction engine components (change) and a redesign of the chain and belt systems, for a boost of 15 hp and same # ft of torque.

    Also VWA is selling a LOT of American made Passat TDI's !!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Congrats! We're going to try to get to Taos next month - you'll have to drive over and give me a spin. Three tanks should get you there and back :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Congrats! Can't beat free money - you must have found the exact right time to close a deal. You'll be going crazy until Thursday. Nice color combo too. I expect to see a few nice pics ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    And showing that red produces any better real world results is yet another thing. Regarding deductions, something being legal doesn't make it fiscally legitimate - all it means is that a lobbyist got what they paid for. Alas, this is something not for the diesel forum :P
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited July 2013
    ..."Maybe I need to start a fakey little (on paper) business, hire an accountant, and take advantage of this scheme "....

    ..."Alas, this is something not for the diesel forum "...

    Perhaps you shouldn't have started in the first place. ;)
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    enjoy the diesel favnerhugen, gagrice !
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    For the engine. Lesser competitors, take note.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2013
    Hard to believe they've been around since '93. Seems like MB really didn't start pushing them until the last 5 or 6 years. They've had a whole bunch of various diesel engines available over the years (not in NA of course).
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am thinking that I will only have to stop twice for fuel going to visit my kids in Indiana. About 2000 miles with easy 700 miles per tank.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Here in Cda they have had a much greater presence than that, and for much longer. Even with a time period that I remember, they've had many models available in gas or diesel going back to the 60's at least and I think much earlier than that. I recall my Aunt bought a brand new 67 200D 4 door sedan. (a naturally aspirated 4 banger)

    Every once in awhile a particularly good engine comes along, and FF to today and I think that 2.1 in the GLK falls squarely into that category. NA has had this love affair with multiple cylinders for decades, and little by little they are starting to embrace the capability of the humble L4. Nowadays no matter which forum you read, it is interesting to see the attitude change and better respect the 4 cyl in cars like Accord and larger. Now factor in the torque available with a similar or even smaller sized turbo diesel, and now twin turbo, and gear driven counterbalancers and you have root pulling torque, combined with tremendous FE and still impressive smoothness. IMO, a turbo V6 is overkill in these vehicles that under 5000 lb. I wasn't sure until the 2.1 made its entry, but now that it has the proof is in the pudding. Doesn't mean all nameplates will accomplish that level of competence mind you.. but MB's been doing it since...well...the very beginning of the oil burner.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited July 2013
    Another part of the puzzle… I would LOVE to see a VW 3.0 L TDI with a twin turbo set up ! I think if VW decided to offer one to the market, it would probably be offered by Porsche (Cayenne) first.

    I am really not sure how VW will alter (if @ all) the 2.0 L 140 hp/236 # ft of torque product. My swag is that it is in its "sweet spot" across a few product lines. One notable example being the 84+ mpg on a EPA H rated 43 mpg Passat: setting several records, The 03 TDI had the 1.9 L TDI.

    I have read and up coming 282 # ft on a GTD, but that falls under the category: believe it when it actually hits the market. Scale wise that will motivate a sub 3k # vehicle, where the MB GLK 250 while having a POTENT 369 # ft moves a sub 4.1k # vehicle.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Yes, I think you nailed that one..no doubt.

    I suspect one of the reasons the 2.1 is twin turbo'd here in NA is because of emissions. Apparently that same engine in EU uses a single turbo. Consequently is also the reason the one here has a fair bit more torque. I am still amazed at its torque number. Not when you consider what a 2.1 turbo is capable of, but for me, the amazement is that you can have that much torque on tap (for a fuel use penalty if you're using it naturally) but still have the pump delivery and injector sizes all sized to still deliver what I consider exceptional FE under very average real-world conditions, given the type and weight of the vehicle it's in.

    But yes, a twin turbo in the V6 would make it rocket-like. Of course there goes your mtn climbing average of 32.5 mpg. (I used 32.5...as a recollection average..feel free to correct me if my memory of your average return is off too much)

    One disadvantage to a twin turbo tho is extra front end weight, which all influences handling to one degree or another...something that Porsche would probably be more sensitive about than other brands.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    edited July 2013
    I think the GLK is heavier than that isn't it? Oh...maybe here..I think ours come with more equipment..mind you surely wouldn't make more than a 100 lb dif?
    edit - just checked...showing 4235 on a base GLK here, so a loaded one would likely up that by at least a 100 lb. Just a sunroof and extra roof bracing, probably gets close to 70 or 80 lbs.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited July 2013
    Yes, you are probably correct, I was talking conversationally. Edmunds.com does not list the MB GLK 250 blue tec weight (yet?) I researched it trying to figure out what the weight difference (app -900#'s, VWT TDI being 4974 #'s) was between Touareg TDI and GLK 250 Blue Tec, when Gagrice was considering the two.

    Yes, I am still excited about the mpg especially going up and down in altitude. (ZERO to 7,382 ft and return to ZERO) On a sub 5k # vehicle all wheel drive? Still WOW.

    So yes a sub 4.1 k # vehicle strapped to a 3.0 L TDI (twin turbo) more power and less weight, WOO HOO !! AND even BETTER fuel mileage? A gimme ! ? And in my dreams ! :blush:

    Yes I think Porsche Cayenne employes slightly different stabilizer bars on the Cay vs the VW Touareg. I forgot the marketing and technical descriptions, but essentially it is a anti roll option pressing against the anti roll bars @ higher (DEMAND) G forces. This has the effect of not being so STIFF at ("Soccer Mom") lower demands. This is good for .94 G on the skidpad (C&D statistic) .

    I am sure the Touareg is very very close. Actually close to .94 G skidpad makes this CUV just plain FUN to drive !!!!! My real task in the winding mountain UPGRADE is not to break any of the unsecured house hold items (500 to 1500#'s ) or recreational gear loaded rear of the driver and front passenger seats. :blush: Naturally I do not want to slide or fall off the mountain. I have never seen a review or write up giving skidpad numbers. Perhaps the auto press really has not much expectation for anything but mediocre skidpad numbers for CUV's, so they do not test it. Funny how far we have come since the days they thought every SUV was a greater roll over candidate than normal cars. Indeed volume and % wise CARS rolled over MORE ! As you probably have noted VW Touareg does not even mention skidpad numbers.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    I recall my Aunt bought a brand new 67 200D 4 door sedan. (a naturally aspirated 4 banger)

    I owned a 1978 240D at one time. Very plain basic car that would cruise all day at 70-80 mph and never break a sweat. It was fire engine red with red "moon" hubcaps and automatic transmission.

    In spite of occasional frozen fuel lines and one very leisurely trip thru the Colorado Rockies, it never faltered or let me down. Not the most fancy or expensive car I have owned, but one that sticks out as one of the most loved by me.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited July 2013
    A 1967 200D would be a late run W110 fintail - putting out 55hp.

    A W123 240D was up to a blistering 65hp - with an automatic, 0-60 had to be around 20 seconds or more. But if one had it back in the malaise era, that wasn't hugely off the mark of many more powerful cars. With maintenance, they will just keep going.

    They both last forever, mechanically - the body will wear out before the engine. I think modern diesels will be the same way,
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    Congrats Gary. I love that color combination and you really got a sweet deal. Don't forget a detailed report as soon as you can manage it.

    When we bought my wife's 2013 Lexus LX570 back in Feb. they offered me a very good finance deal also. I would have taken it but Mrs. houdini said no thanks, we'll just pay cash. She refuses to borrow money, even when it makes financial sense. I started to explain that we would be saving money to finance it, saw the look on her face, and just wrote the check. After 46 years of marriage, I know when she has her mind made up.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    edited July 2013
    Engine or body might be a close race. It was uncannily free of any squeaks or rattles...and stayed that way for the 3 years we owned it. 0 to 60 in about 20 secs. sounds about right. Very stately motoring. :)

    American cars of the late 70's and early 80's were pretty much rattle traps and all done in after about 30,000 miles.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    They weren't particularly well rustproofed - even in my mild climate, after 30 years or so, they can get some bubbles, especially if stored outdoors. MB had occasional rust issues through about 2000. But otherwise, they will last forever - you can still find them as taxis even in Germany with its strict inspections.

    Did you buy it new?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am not sure what MB is using for sheet metal nowadays, but VW has for years used galvanized steel, which carries a 12 year rust thru warranty. Naturally aluminum to composite materials are more rust resistant. However, I am not aware of (US market ) diesels that use those materials
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    This could be true, however, you have people who don't understand leases, and will shop price, or not understanding the terms used, a co-worker was very happy in leasing a new BMW, when I asked him them certain questions, they could not answer them. But they could tell me that the lease payments were $475/m for 39 months oh and the mileage was 10K/yr. I know this person drives at least 15k/Yr and put down 7K (this was the amount they were going use as a down payment on a purchase.) This was not a very good deal, I haven't broken it them yet...
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    I would think that MB would bring the C250 blue tech next year for the new model year which should happen next year. BMW just released the 328d, so MB wont be far off. What I find interesting is, MB was the first to bring over the smaller SUV diesel (GLK250) and BMW was the first to being over the sport sedan diesel first.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Don't forget a detailed report as soon as you can manage it.

    I will for sure and post some pics as well.

    I would have taken it but Mrs. houdini said no thanks, we'll just pay cash.

    It really surprised me that my wife agreed to the terms. She has never had a payment other than home mortgage. Has owned several Porsche, Mercedes and Lexus. When the salesman showed her the paper with $0 Dn and 0% interest on the entire amount. She said why not. She had the checkbook in hand. I have had vehicle loans. Never one with zero percent financing.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They both last forever, mechanically - the body will wear out before the engine. I think modern diesels will be the same way,

    When I was flip flopping between the ML and Touareg, I stopped at a top Mercedes Indy shop. I asked the head mechanic about the newer diesels. He said no problems have shown up. He services several. As you know the dealer service is pricey.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I've never understood while some will shy away from free money (if the net price is equal with cash vs financing). If it is truly 0%, it is pretty much irresponsible to refuse it - invest the balance, make a little on the interest - over the life of the loan it will probably equal a few free payments. Credit isn't evil if managed properly.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Good points. It works better for a lower mileage driver with little to nothing down. A high mileage driver putting 20% down on a lease is going to lose. Even with a diesel :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    MB rust issues seem to revolve around suspension parts and some areas where moisture and dirt can collect - wheelarches etc. It can be found on many late 90s models. However, with cars of the past decade or so, the problems have gone away.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2013
    Just a hassle to have yet another bill to keep track of every month. I don't trust autopay nor do I want any creditor to have easy access or any way to empty my account, mistakenly or not.

    But the 1% savings account interest would be nice or you could invest in some fading company. :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I know of no Bluetec issues either. These are commercial/industrial powertrains put into passenger car use, so they should have a long lifespan. Regarding service, I would look for indy shops for any out of warranty car - where you can save a lot on anything but the most routine work.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I am thinking that, with Audi playing the game now too. MB is also trying to move the C a little upmarket to allow the CLA a spot that isn't too low. No MB diesel sedan can be called really sporty, but that's fine.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This was not a very good deal, I haven't broken it them yet

    Am sure all leases are different. I could not get one on the ML or Touareg that made good financial sense to me. I look at the total cost for the 36 months both with buying at the end or turning it back in. With the ML I was paying $12000 in what I would call interest. Or the amount over what was being used up in the vehicle and what was residual.
    Cash price $55,000
    residual $35,987
    difference including tax, title, license $21,034
    Lease $5k down $908 per month total paid out over 36 months = $37,688
    VW lease was
    cash price $48,304
    residual $26,270
    down $999
    Monthly $814 for 36 months plus tax title license
    That equals about $8 grand to lease their car.
    My think is selling the car after 3 years. I will still owe $21,720 and it should be worth $34k looking at a current 3 year old Touareg TDI Lux. Which would give me back close to $13k that I paid in for the first 3 years. That should take my total out of pocket for the first 36 months to less than $550 per month. :shades:
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    They both last forever, mechanically - the body will wear out before the engine. I think modern diesels will be the same way,

    Nowadays tho we have pretty extensive use of hot galvanized body and unibody metal. That, combined with progressive knowledge of where and how best to drain inner body panels and fender wells of moisture should help offset corrosion much much better than the old guys.

    My longevity concerns with the new tech is more along the lines of so much electronic and software use. Combine that with extra high psi fuel lpressures and piezo type injectors etc (RTR parameters) and there is still lots of room for longevity issues per dollar invested.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    No, I bought it in 1980, so 2 years old. It had almost 40K miles on it,so was just broken in. I think I paid around 8K for it. Great car.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    My Aunt's was green with the red centre hubcaps. Tan leatherette interior (which stood up really well) and like you say stayed impressively tight over the years before rust started to rule. The car went to my bros and then to my best friend, back to my bros for a term and then finally outta the family after a really expensive body job and repaint. It was a stick...a 4 speed if memory serves?
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