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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Another test drive or did you part with your money and buy the new Jetta?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    It is the latter. :blush:

    Off topic, D2 corner store just outide of Portland OR was $ 2.09. An Indian Station near Grant's Pass / Medford was $1.87 with puc lic.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Sedan or Sportswagen? Be careful with those gas jockeys in Oregon. One busted the gas cover on my Passat. The VW dealer here in San Diego replaced it on warranty.

    Don't you just love that new car feel? If I had a vehicle I put 100K miles on I would get a new one. It has been about 25 years since I put that many miles on a vehicle. We put about 8k total on 3 vehicles now. I would drive more if one of them was a diesel getting good mileage.

    The Audi dealer called and said they were pushing the company to bring the A4 with 2.0L TDI to the USA as soon as possible. I think they see how well VW is doing with their TDI's and want to be ready for the next run up in fuel prices.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    It's a Sedan, sunroof, DSG..

    Yes, the only D2 drips I have ever experienced were in the OR state.

    The new car smell is WOW. Picky, but the 03 Jetta TDI would probably have put up 48-59 mpg. But.... the 236 # ft is just plain cool in comparison to 155# ft! But there are many more delays and massive construction projects anymore. Plus we hit the Friday RUSH hour

    We did the Woodburn, OR outlet on Friday.. Today we target Pike's place Seattle, WA.. Got to see those "flying fish".Well actually, lunch is a better draw? ;)
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    All it would take for me is a competitive starting price and a history of reliability. For example, if Ford made a diesel Fusion or Toyota mad a diesel Corrola, after about three years production I would purchase one if the price was competitive with the gas version.
    GM sucks.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    GM sucks.

    In 1978 they did...I think they ruined diesel in main stream America. Volkswagen and Mercedes have historically been the ones that pushed the technology.

    Currently, I think that is pretty outdated, and judging by other posts, grinding an axe.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Numerous magazines, gagrice, have pointed out that having a hybrid electric powertrain is essentially like having electric turbo-charging that makes its max torque at 0 rpm. That should interest even you. If they make a light 2-seat sport coupe or sports car and give it a small gas engine with a decent-size electric motor, it could be very fun while making better than 40 mpg.

    Like a diesel?

    I don't know, more computers driving = less me driving. What makes a sport-y car fun is that I am driving it. Given that the most boring car on the planet has a sub-6 second 0-60 time while still putting the person in the seat with the pedals and the steering wheel to sleep implies there is more to it than speed.

    Things like the Tesla are intriguing as a concept, but they don't get my blood pumping.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Part of the problem is really circular. As a point of departure, a Ford and GM product has displaced Lexus for the top/#2 owners statisfaction slots: Jaguar and Buick. As it applies to diesels (ie, VW), there would not be near the interest in diesels, if not for VW

    So for example on Canadian cable TV, I saw a VW advertisement for the 2009 TDI's. I haven't seen ANY on US western states cable TV.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would say the average guy on the street has no idea that VW, BMW and MB all offer diesels for sale in CA. Heck I have talked to people that did not know they even make cars with diesel engines. I don't watch TV so do not see ads. I do remember in 2005 seeing the ad for the Mercedes E320 CDI. They were touting one of the reasons I like diesel vehicles. Driving long distances without having to fill the tank.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Vancouver BC, Corner store prices are

    D2 $3.27 CN
    RUG $3.85 CN

    (per US gal .85 cn per liter 3.85 conversion)

    The 600 mile range will let me refuel back in the USA for obvious reasons. ;)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The loss of the diesel engine -- currently a virtual requirement to successfully compete in Europe, particularly in premium-vehicle segments -- is another blow to Cadillac's European aspirations and is certain to cause a serious setback and realignment of Cadillac's strategy. Or even an outright surrender in Europe."

    Cadillac Kills Crucial Diesel Engine for Europe (AutoObserver)

    image
  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,597
    I had just about decided that maybe GM had learned a lesson about long-range planning and might be viable, but this indicates to me that they are still the usual gang of idiots (at least with MAD magazine that was a joke). Can anyone provide an alternate explanation for why they would kill a program vital to their showing that the Cadillac CTS can compete head to head with Mercedes, BMW, and so on?

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It's hard to be brilliant when you're broke?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Broke being the key word. As in penniless. Latest figures show about $91B in assets and about $120Billion in debts. That is as close as I can tell. I was not a wiz in school. Should we add another $21B to that debt? They should have had a small diesel PU truck 20 years ago. They would have something that the others do not have. GM management are not only stupid but lazy. They never do anything until the competition beats their butt. Not the way to make money in this global economy.

    http://idea.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/40730/000119312509045144/d10k.htm
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Indeed all the big 3 and maybe the 4th sister (UAW) do have diesel skills and products. The BIG three have for decades marketed diesels for world wide markets! Some of us on this board are familar with the more "special purpose" rigs such as the 250/350 etc series turbo diesel monsters. There has NEVER been a cohesive and coherent explanation from any of them for the "lack" in US markets, SANS it costs too much money at any and all levels !!??

    So for example VW "sucked it up" for the 2009 MY Jetta TDI 25% total units, 50 state emissions compliance. . Funny as the big 4 dump millions if not billions in lobbies and congressional monies for the legislators to craft regulations favorable to the big 4.

    This is not to say that VW did not pay its expected/required "vigorish", but how much can you really pay for 25% (62,500) of say 250,000 units? Perhaps that is the real reason for the TDI premium!!??? :sick:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I for one applaud VW for developing a diesel that jumps through the hoops put in the path by CARB. No one else seems capable of doing that with a car that most people should be able to afford. I will be looking strongly at a Tiguan with that engine. I like that SUV both looks and comfort level. The V6 TDI will not be on my list due to the Urea mess. The only diesel SUV I would buy today is the 2007-08 Mercedes ML320 CDI without Urea. They are very comfortable. Plus you can get an easy 30 MPG on the highway. The real downside is they are ugly to me.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Indeed !!!!

    Our own (domestic) auto manufacturers can not "rig" the game so they can compete, even as they should compete fairly. It is the "foreign" oem that jumps through the hoops to offer ground breaking products !!?? :blush: :confuse:
  • akjbmwakjbmw Member Posts: 231
    You used the term "SANS".
    I use the term as found in medical notations:
    pre = before
    post = after
    con = with
    sans = without.
    Is that the use you intended, or is there another commonly used meaning that I do not know?
    This is not meant as a validity challenge, it is a request for education. I may have missed the previous introduction of the term. Sometimes I can figure it out by context. I may be having a Senior Moment...
    Thanks.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Ah, you caught the double negative. It was meant as a pun. To further highlight the "too much money" scenario, seems it is way too much money for them to continue in ...."gassers" ;)
  • kurtamaxxxguykurtamaxxxguy Member Posts: 1,798
    No clatter during idle.
    Easy to start when cold.
    Mileage at least 40% better than a gas engine.
    Pollution equivalent or superior to gas engine.
    No urea or other "special"additives (just diesel-up and go).
    Similar / reasonable maintenance requirements compared to gas engine.
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    No clatter during idle.
    Easy to start when cold.
    Mileage at least 40% better than a gas engine.
    Pollution equivalent or superior to gas engine.
    No urea or other "special"additives (just diesel-up and go).
    Similar / reasonable maintenance requirements compared to gas engine.


    And then stuff the dang thing into a minivan for us family guys!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    And then stuff the dang thing into a minivan for us family guys!

    Here in San Diego I see the VW mini vans with TDI quite often. Of course they have Mexico license plates.
  • joem5joem5 Member Posts: 201
    Haven't you read the short story by Oscar Wilde"The Happy Prince" who lived in a palace called Sans Soucie?
    Bonjour mon ami and happy motoring.
  • joem5joem5 Member Posts: 201
    The state I live in does whatever CA demands of their cars so you get 8 to 10 less HP. I see the black exhaust smoke from a diesel fall to the ground,but that's not green to me. :confuse:
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."We did 700 miles today 43 mpg. It was a climb to 4200 ft and back down to sea level. Mt Shasta is covered in snow. Three folks in the car and the trunk packed to the gills. I did the climb app 80-85 up highway 5.It rained a lot of the travel day. This 09 VW Jetta TDI is a pretty neat road machine. "...

    The trip (app 2,300 miles) numbers posted 43.65 mpg (app 49 gals) . In addition to a fairly congested Highway 5 N/S (app 1930 miles), we caught stop and go rush hour traffic into/ out of downtowns: Vancouver, Richmond BC, Seattle/Vancouver, WA, Portland/Tigard, OR. We did almost brutal stop and go city miles in the above same cities. One CN border crossing was INXS of 40 min of literal stop (mostly idle) and go bumper to bumper. The other border crossing took 3 mins tops!? I suspect we also ran the A/C for app 50% of the trip and the heater for another 40%. Ambient temp seemed to range from 32 to 81 degrees. There was almost no attempt at fuel miser mileage procedures. One reason being it will be in the perpetual break in phase till a min of 10,000 miles. I did however, take full advantage of the "no fuel draw" downgrade.

    Past history indicates best fuel mileage can be achieved between 35,000 to 45,000 miles and continues to be level to a slight rise till at least 115,000 miles ( that I know of ). I basically used the city and highway to "romp" on the engine and turbo systems (safety first, of course) for "best practices" break in. Translation: diesels need the correct loadings. Turbos need the full operational range of revs for proper emissions, lubrication, heat dissipation, and for the multi speed turbo vanes to wear in and operate correctly.

    While I suspect the 03 TDI would have posted 48-59 mpg, ( I have done a few similar trips in this car) nevertheless, I am very satisfied with the 09 Jetta TDI.

    VERY VERY off topic, it is a true ADD'ers dream :blush: Let's see:

    1. on board computer data tracking: steering wheel thumbs activated decision tree menus access
    2. AC plug for computer office operation (need mobile modem, of course)
    3. DVD movies
    4. Sirius satellite reception, FM/AM/CD/IPOD/AUX port
    4b. on board weather updates
    4c. truckers info
    5. CP chatting

    ....... GEEZ
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    That's because the VW minivan sold in the States is just a rebadged Dodge Grand Caravan, which doesn't have a diesel option.....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    They DO make a diesel GTI, for sale in Europe!

    Volkswagen has revealed its new Golf GTD, a sporty diesel version of Europe’s top-selling car. Together with the recently launched Golf GTi, it will provide VW with a renewed two-pronged gasoline-and-diesel attack on Europe’s burgeoning hot-hatchback ranks.

    Though the German carmaker has plans to increase the number of diesel models its sells in North America, VW officials say there are no plans to offer the Golf GTD in the States.

    Unveiled Friday at the Leipzig motor show in Germany, the Golf GTD runs the latest version of VW’s turbocharged 2.0-liter four-cylinder common-rail diesel engine. With 168 hp at 4,200 rpm and 258 lb-ft of torque between 1,700 rpm and 2,500 rpm, it propels the Golf GTD from 0 to 62 mph in 8.1 seconds and up to 138 mph in standard six-speed manual guise. A six-speed DSG (double-shift gearbox) also will be available.

    But it’s the Golf GTD’s 44.4 mpg that VW is making big noise about--that’s theoretical range of 645 miles on its comparatively small 14.5-gallon tank.


    http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090326/FREE/903269975

    So if VW is so gung-ho on increasing its diesel market share in the U.S., why isn't it planning to bring this little gem in? That's a darn shame! The first-ever diesel GTI apparently dates back to 1982. 27 years later the next generation of the Golf turns over, and STILL we don't get it in the States?!

    No word on how much more than the gas version the diesel costs, however....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."So if VW is so gung-ho on increasing its diesel market share in the U.S., why isn't it planning to bring this little gem in?"...

    My swag is they have the big 4 mistakes as great examples of what NOT to do !

    In addition the goal is to go to 40% from 25%, which is a 60% increase. That is a HUGE increase when the market is currently minus -40% !!I It is a real life percentage delta of 100%.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The reason is that the Rabbit will get the TDI engine soon, and the difference between the Golf and the Rabbit is pretty small. I'm hoping for the Polo, though - a 60mpg TDI polo would blow a ll of the yuppie so-called "econoboxes" away. 14K for a Yaris... Sheesh.
  • akjbmwakjbmw Member Posts: 231
    Find a mid eighties BMW 524TD.
    Unlike the MBenz diesels, the timing of the fuel injection was adjusted by such stuff as temperature and engine load. It was absolutely amazing. A club tech session demonstration included an observation of a 524TD training engine on a portable stand. We stood around in a circle facing the running engine listening to the technician talk in a normal "group address" voice. The question was asked about what happens when the "black-box" controller failed. The technician reached over and yanked the box out of it's mount, and in an instantly required much louder voice stated that it reverted to MBenz behavior. If we weren't paying tuition for our daughters gymnastics training, I would have bought one then. The cleaner burning also resulted in little smoke.
    Go look at the current BMW offerings...
    Now, if we could get that kind of engine in an Impala to go along with our Duramax. Hmmm.
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    ruking, next time, cross the boarder at Sumas, very little if any wait. I assume you crossed at the "Piece Arch" crossing. Always a Zoo.

    Oh, and to stay on topic: This past week I puchased a 2005 VW NB TDI.

    Having spent a few days driving this car, I believe the tile of this thread should be "What Would it Take to Make You "NOT" Buy a Diesel"

    I enjoyed the test drives I had taken in TDI's, but to own one and have the time to savor every aspect of a diesel powered car is incredible. The sound, the feel, the power is amazing. I live in a very hilly area of the Pacific Northwest and this little bug walks up these hills like it was flat land.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I live in a very hilly area of the Pacific Northwest and this little bug walks up these hills like it was flat land.

    That is at the top of my list for liking a small diesel vs a small gas engine. Of course not having to find a gas station for 600-700 miles is wonderful.

    My travel to shopping goes from near sea level to my home at 2060 feet. With a lot of ups and downs. Over half the 13 miles is on Interstate 8 that is posted 70 MPH. Invariably I get stuck behind a semi that cannot get over 45 MPH on the long uphill grade. Passing with my underpowered V6 Ford Ranger is pure drudgery. With my Passat TDI it was smooth acceleration. I hope you enjoy that car.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."ruking, next time, cross the boarder at Sumas, very little if any wait. I assume you crossed at the "Piece Arch" crossing. Always a Zoo."...

    Indeed. It was the "Arch". Thanks for the heads up. I will take that exit next time !! I saw a few cars take that way and was thinking hmmmm .... this strikes me like... "the secret way"...

    Glad you like your new diesel !! These cars are really optimized for the 50-100 mph cruising.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... If you want to see what a few year old TDI can do in a twenty something Rabbit go to TopGear dot com. They supposedly only have 7,000 dollars in it.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,618
    Truck customs at Blaine is usually quicker than the car route, but the Meridian St exit just as you leave Bellingham (state highway 539) going north through Lynden is a more direct route up the Trans-Canada than going through Sumas. Assuming you're going to the lower mainland, you backtrack east quite a bit to go through Sumas, and there are more little town & other delays also. If you're going to Hope or Kamloops, Sumas works fine.

    FWIW.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Thanks for an alternate. I take it they let cars go through truck customs with no issues.
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    You are correct. When we went though Sumas we were going to Chilliwack and Kamloops and that was a few years ago.

    Sounds like a nice road trip for the new to me, I mean wife :sick: NB TDI. Maybe she will let me drive. :shades:

    I even had a guy at church tell me, its a chick car.... Don't care,
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."I even had a guy at church tell me, its a chick car.... Don't care,"...

    Precisely what my two daughters told me at the time I was looking at the 03 NB TDI. I suspect it was too fun a car sans a real rear back seat, and the appropriate ingress/egress. Since a lot of the 115,000 miles have been and probably will continue to be trips over the 6 years, it seems to have worked out for the best that the salesman mistakenly priced and prepared the Jetta 4 door sedan that I then bought on a 7 min second look .
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I even had a guy at church tell me, its a chick car.... Don't care,

    Chicks may like them. However they have more head room than any of the small cars from the Asians. A friend was thinking of getting a small car for running around in. He drives his Town Car everywhere. He is 6 ft 7 inches tall. He told me the only car he sat in that was comfortable for his height was the VW New Beetle. I know my head touches in the Civic and Accord. The specs lie. No substitute for going and checking out the head room and rear leg room. Of course I would not imagine the back seat of the NB is all that roomy.
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    Even my daughter was amazed at how much room there is in the front of the NB and she even thinks the back is kind of roomy, but then she is only 5'4".
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes in many ways 4 door sedans "suffer" whole hosts of compromises. The most noticeable of these is the invisible but visible ingress/egress issues for @ least 4 people, logically less so for a 2 person 2 seater.

    When I was at a Mini Cooper dealership, I came upon a fellow tire kicker sitting in the drivers seat. I asked him how it felt. I guess he took it to mean that I wanted to sit in the drivers seat and he immediately sprang out of the car. To my almost shock and amazement after he got out, I looked at him and after saying some half baked socially apologetic thing, before asking how tall he was. He replied, 6 foot 6 inches. He said he was very comfortable in the Mini Cooper.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would sure look hard at the extended Mini with a diesel engine. A local preacher has one. He is taller than I am and loves his little car. I was checking it out when he came out of the PO. He had to special order it. There is only one dealer about 40 miles from here. Makes it harder to negotiate for a good price. I guess that is why they hold their resale so well. They are also one of the few that have not taken a hit in this down economy.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Indeed they (and in turbo diesel) look VERY fun to drive in the longer term, albeit 1-2 people. A relative has the "stretch" I think Clubman ? model and it is a total kick in the pants. However on the smaller version (his probably also) I have read the back end crash worthiness leaves a lot to be desired. This of course is not an issue if you do not get rear ended.
  • investor27investor27 Member Posts: 59
    How did you Jetta TDI FWD hold up this past winter in Wisconsin? Do you have winter tires on it or dedicated snow tires? Do you use it a lot during the winter? Thanks.
  • I don't have a Jetta TDI though it may be my next car. I have a 2003 Golf TDI that has now gone through SEVEN Wisconsin winters. It often sees daily use. The last two winters were the worst in 30 years. It has never failed to start in below zero temps, and I have never put winter tires on it, though that isn't a bad idea. Takes longer for the heat to come up than with a gasser, but with heated seats and and winter clothing, that isn't a problem. Mileage drops to about 45 mpg (from 50 or more) when the weather is really cold. Much of that is likely due to the length of time it takes to get to operating temperature in the cold. It always runs fine while warming up.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I suspect that they also get snow in Germany... :P

    It'll do just fine. Really.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Do not forget that VW has several traction-aiding systems built right in.

    EDL - Electronic Differential Lock (applies brake to slipping drivewheel thus sending torque to other wheel)
    ASR - Automatic Slip Regulation (cuts engine-power to match available traction)

    And I 'orderd' my 2003 with optional ESP (Electronic Stabilization Program) which adds yaw sensors to the 4-wheel indipendant brake applications.

    Bottom line, I can dump the clutch from a stop on a snow-coverd road and the various systems instantly take over and pull the car forward by sending torque to the proper drivewheel and only applying enough power to accellerate smoothly.

    The ONLY time I was not able to get the car moving was when the bumper was PUSHING SNOW UP A HILL.... not bad for a FWD vehicle with all-weather tires on it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think VW has the corner on snow traction. I think my 1967 Bug was the best two wheel drive vehicle I ever had in Snow. If the gas heater had not caught on fire it would probably still be running. I drove it to Alaska in the late spring and plowed snow several times through the Yukon.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Those old Bugs could really climb glaciated roads.

    Diesel bumped up to $2.27 here - premium is $2.17.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    70 VW Beetle, I only got stuck once in two up state NY winters in sort of a "white out" and didn't see a duly polished hole spun by a larger car and left ice slick in a work parking lot. Of course I parked the (drive wheel) right into the hole ! Naturally it just continued to spin and further polish the ice. Solution? Two office mates lifted the rear end (with me in it) and put the drive tire on the flat ice/snow pack.

    Diesel 2.27, PUG 2.39 , RUG 2.19 , corner store
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