Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Not really. Both the Ford and GM diesel PU offerings were going to be Fuel hogs compared to what the rest of the World has in PU trucks. I want a minimum of 30 MPG in a PU truck. This was just another example of why the Domestics may all be gone in 10 years. Those were the same old story, high performance low mileage. A 3.0L diesel is all that is needed for a 1/2 ton PU. A 2.5L 4 cylinder for the Ranger/Tacoma sized. Leave the heavy hauling to the 3/4 ton and bigger PU trucks.
You can get one in Mexico. And Europe. And Japan. And Australia. And...
They *make* the thing already - they just won't sell it in the U.S.
Even Nissan also sells the Frontier with a diesel engine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Navara
Well, different name - same exact thing.
(from wikipedia)
The Nissan Navara Double Cab became available in Malaysia on November 5, 2008. It is available with a 2.5L diesel engine producing 128 kW (172 hp) and 403 N·m (297 ft·lbf).
That's more HP and way way more torque than the 4 cylinder version of the Frontier. A total no-brainer choice for a person looking for a work truck. Just... you guessed it - (Soup [non-permissible content removed] voice)"no truck for you!"
Then clearly, someone (I'm looking at you Ford :mad: ) needs to borrow the BMW I-6 diesel for a light pickup.
Its not like they have competing products (BMW versus Ranger??? not likely)
Its not like Ford has a storied history of producing good diesel engines in-house (comparatively, IMO). Their best models came from LandRover, International, or Peugeot.
So find a partner and do-si-do y'all!
Side note - I think a 535Dxdrive Sportswagen would have made a better splash than a 335d sports sedan. FWIW.
The "European versions" DO in fact share that SAME engine !!!!!
I'm sure they do, I was referring to what should have been done in the US.
For example, the 5-series sportswagen.
I think BMW should further explore this attraction of sportswagen owners to diesels.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1a9dde/1211
And I disagree that the US is 'uninterested' in diesel engines as a whole.
My opinion is that a more premium, utilitarian car would attract more diesel buyers than a 'so-called entry-level' sport sedan.
For starters, the 5-series is more premium than the 3-series. Secondly, the Sportwagon is more utilitarian.
The 335d is not the same vehicle at all. I'm not sure why you would say: So if you are going to do a 5 series Sportwagen, then why not sedans, etc, etc.
But the engine seems to work fine in an X5d. So by extension, perhaps a 535Dxdrive Wagon would be the next logical step. Not a RWD sports sedan.
I loved the 335d engine when I drove it. I just felt it was in the wrong car.
I am NOT affiliated in any way with BMW, but was swagging about BMW IN the US. Evidently as I said then and say now, BMW does NOT think it worth the risk/reward to do as you think, otherwise... why would they NOT !!??
In addition since you appear to be a current BMW owner, 405 # ft of torque presents a HUGE marketing problem to BMW; as the "ENTRY" level 3 series now DRAWF's the whole line (gassers), except for the most exotic or massively tuned models.It is also STARKLY apparent the gassers are guzzlers in comparison. Again I think you probably follow it closer than I. So give us a heads up.
Me, I would disagree it (the 335 D engine is in the wrong car !! I absolutely loved it !! Evidently even current BMW owners think it WAY overpriced, as when I was trying to get on any of three order lists, NO one was before me. Truly I hope it has picked up since then.
The Urea injection still has me upset. I wonder if you get low out in the desert if you can just pee into the canister and be on your way? I think the BMW inline 6 is a better design than the VW and MB V6.
We (you and me) need to write letters to the auto makers. They need to hear this or they will continue with the SameOldSh**
Its time consuming and it takes thought, but letters are what count.
Dear Sir,
This is the single biggest mistake you can make. I was shocked when I read this. Ford has a chance to beat all the others and they quit. I have no idea what you are thinking or who you are listening to, but there is a diesel market that is starving for high mileage diesel powered light duty trucks and passenger cars.
I just traded my 1993 Ford Explorer for 2005 VW diesel Beetle and we love it. Two different cars, yes. Diesel cost more than gas, yes, BUT, my wife loves the fuel and money savings, the sound, feel and power of the diesel engine and wishes our Taurus had a diesel, something like in the Ford Mondeo in Europe.
In July of 2008 we purchased a new 2008 Taurus Limited and we love the car, but I wonder all the time how much nicer it would be with a diesel engine in it.
As stated above, my wife loves the diesel as do I. An assumption on my part is the both GM and Ford assume that diesel is a “guy” thing and that is so wrong. There are a lot of ladies that own VW diesels by choice.
Regards,
Ford Holding Off on Light-Duty Diesel for F-150
It's been in the works for years and now it's on hold - again. We referring to the smaller, light-duty diesel engine planned for the Ford F-150. It was scheduled to go on sale in 2010, but according to a report in Automotive News it's now on indefinite hold.
Adding a high-mileage, high-torque diesel to its most popular truck seemed like a sure thing a year ago. Now that gas prices have come down, however, diesel is far less attractive from a cost standpoint.
According to article, the program has been delayed until 2013 but if gas prices remain low compared to diesel fuel the engine could be scrapped altogether. General Motors recently delayed development of its own light-duty diesel in an effort to conserve cash.
American 3-series buyers are still a bit of a niche market, IMO. It is viewed as a sports car first, and a sedan second.
They are just too tough a nut to crack. Any other class, I think BMW would have an easier time.
As both you and Gagrice have delineated, I would be inclined to agree.. I (my 02 cents) think it is great to have one engine common to two cars, but as you have also said, BMW buyers are a niche market.
I SERIOUSLY like the 335 D !! It truly is made for long distance road travel. As for the diesel in SUV platforms, an absolute no brainer.
Then clearly, someone (I'm looking at you Ford ) needs to borrow the BMW I-6 diesel for a light pickup.
Except they already sell a diesel Ranger to most of the rest of the world. Already have it, zero r&d required - just change some headlights and other minor bits the same as Mercedes and BMW and VW do with their vehicles.
It is. :shades:
After feeling the acceleration out on the highway in a 5200 lb SUV, it is hard to imagine just how fast the much lighter 335D must feel. The 335d is 1400 lbs lighter than the X5. It should have no trouble getting 35+ MPG on the highway. Gagrice
It has not at legal speed.
I know you knew.
Regards,
Jose
I disagree with this assessment. Due to inconsistent emissions criteria, VW and BMW are jumping through far more hoops to get their diesels 50-state-certified. Urea injection for one thing was a American-market criteria.
Ford's R&D and training of thousands of dealership service workers constitutes a massive infrastructure shift. In some cases, using an already introduced engine in a country gets around more bureaucratic tape.
Like I said, Ford hadn't produced a single diesel engine in-house for 20 years in the US. Navistar did. Ford has no ability to bring a 50-state small diesel to the US market any time in the foreseeable future.
I seriously think anyone in the small pickup market in the US has an easy choice in front of them... license the BMW, VW, and Merc diesels.
Toyota taco
Subaru Baja
Ford stRanger
Dodge Dakota
...etc
I have said many times before on this very forum that I would be in line if these were offered in USA.
Instead, I ended up with Subaru Baja turbo (smallest pckup truck I could find..and it has the power of a V8)
Fortunately we can compare the US and UK ratings for the 335d and extrapolate what a US-spec 320d would get.
all automatics-
335d: 31/ 53.3/ 42.2 UK mpg; 23/ 36/ 27 US mpg
320d: 39.2/ 62.8/ 51.4 UK mpg; [29/ 42.4/ 32.9 US mpg]
A bit better than a diesel Jetta, probably thank to taller gearing.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
Almost every car sold in the US has a diesel counterpart sold in the rest of the world.
Emission standards for passenger cars are summarised in the following table. Diesels have more stringent CO standards but are allowed higher NOx emissions. Gasoline-powered vehicles are exempted from particulate matter (PM) standards through to the Euro 4 stage, but vehicles with direct injection engines will be subject to a limit of 0.005 g/km for Euro 5 and Euro 6.
European emission standards for passenger cars (Category M1*), g/km
Diesel
Euro 4 January 2005 —— CO 0.5 —— HC - —— NOx 0.25 —— HC+NOx 0.3 —— PM 0.025
Euro 5 (future) September 2009 —— CO 0.5 —— HC - —— NOx 0.18 —— HC+NOx 0.23 —— PM 0.005
Euro 6 (future) September 2014 —— CO 0.5 —— HC - —— NOx 0.08 —— HC+NOx 0.17 —— PM 0.005
Gasoline
Euro 4 January 2005 —— CO 1.0 —— HC 0.1 —— NOx 0.08 —— HC+NOx - —— PM -
Euro 5 (future) September 2009 —— CO 1.0 —— HC 0.1 —— NOx 0.06 —— HC+NOx - —— PM 0.005**
Euro 6 (future) September 2014 —— CO 1.0 —— HC 0.1 —— NOx 0.06 —— HC+NOx - —— PM 0.005**
* Before Euro 5, passenger vehicles > 2500 kg were type approved as light commercial vehicle N1 - I
** Applies only to vehicles with direct injection engines
Regards,
Jose
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/summarychart.pdf
Burn more is better !!!
insert
^" in correlation"
Indeed what is correlated is burn more is better !!!
Several states have already kicked up the gasoline/diesel tax claiming that the more efficent vehicles have reduced their cashflow. The tax man will ALWAYS get his cut no matter how little fuel you burn.
As for the US federal emmissions laws -vs- diesel.... If you do any research on the subject, you will quickly learn that the EPA does not like diesel for some reason and is trying to keep them off the roads by making the emmissions-standards almost impossible to meet.
Case in point... the new VW TDI engine which is 50-state legal is by far the most complicated engine they have ever sold. I am half-afraid all that complexity may make the reliability suffer.
But I agree that the EPA's intentions do not favor diesel.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/summarychart.pdf
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
See msg #7665 in "Diesels In The News" for an 82% RUG premium over diesel (per mile driven) with diesel and RUG way off the 4.50 per gal highs.
Diesel-Fuel Price Plunges; Will Engines Be Revived? (AutoObserver)
Thus there is no need for us to start appending our local prices.
The dramatic decline in diesel fuel prices is driving up U.S. sales of diesel-powered vehicles from European carmakers.
.....On Tuesday, June 16, the average nationwide price for a gallon of diesel was $2.60, according to AAA. That compared with $2.67 for regular unleaded gasoline and $2.94 for premium.
VW has reached the point that 1/3 of all Jetta sales are diesel, although that still doesn't represent big numbers - less than 4000 per month. The other Europeans aren't doing as well:
Mercedes-Benz sold 8,242 diesel-powered M-class SUVs from January through May, or 16.5 percent of the total for the vehicle. For all of last year, the diesel version accounted for 13.7 percent of M-class sales.
Through May, diesels accounted for 21.8 percent (5,440) of Mercedes GL sales and 15.1 percent (1,312) of R-class sales, up from 13.7 percent for the GL and 10 percent for the R class in 2008.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090622/CARNEWS/906229984
I also find it telling that at a pace of 4000 per month, VW dealers are saying the supply of Jetta TDIs "has run out". Clearly VW didn't plan to sell many TDIs per year, and they continue to do what they have done in the past - keep inventory low to artifically boost resale prices. Their practices don't seem to match their rhetoric that they were jumping into diesel with both feet this year.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well no.
(especially in the 2008/2009 context, of a plethora of down turns)
VW actually exceeded their 2009 goals by 33.2% IF your (quote) 1/3 of total production is correct. (VW's target was 25% of total production)
The 2010 stated goal is 40%. This would be 60% over the 2009 target.
The delta here is HUGE !!??
VW of course predicts much lower revenues & profits for 2009. But again they anticipate a PROFIT, while it is well know the others (bigger oems) will probably still post losses.
The first one is true, the second one, meh, not so much. VW still middle of the pack.
Vehicle Quality Improves Despite Bumpy Financial Ride
Being an engineer, I know that the ENGINEERING DESIGN is a far better measurement than how well the assembly line workers bolted it together. (A lose bolt can be tightened... a poor design just suks)
The VW TDI is a proven design that works. I can change my engine-oil and filter in about 15 minutes FROM UNDER THE HOOD. I owned a Honda once... the oil-filter was nearly impossible to access even when the car was on a hydrolic lift. I know of an American-named car which one had to REMOVE THE FRONT WHEEL to access the oil-filter.
Here in Vermont, one of my top criterias in selecting a vehicle is RESISTANCE TO RUST. In that reguard, VW offers the 12-year/unlimited-milage warantee.
VW has oil filters specified for 30,000 miles.
Right now over 87,000 miles, all the wear able parts on the Civic are wearing app 2x faster than the Jetta's wear able parts. Another example, I need three alignments where the Jetta needed none.
(the stuff you see around Edmunds every day... a real learning experience)
Speaking of oil changes, I got the second hand account on this one. I’ll not name names to protect me and the company, BUT. A tug was brought to Puget Sound from another port and the local shipyard started doing some maintenance for use here.
Long story short; The boat is 3,000HP with two EMD’s. All the maintenance over the past five years had been performed on time including fuel and OIL filters. What engine room logs showed and was later reveled is that the main engine oil had not been changed since 2004. Yes, 5 years without an oil change. :surprise:
The boat runs great, in fact I spent 7 days on it this month and it never missed a beat.
The 2009 TDI is a CRD.