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I spent last week visiting family and doing a 1500 mile road trip with my sister. She wants to dump liquid fuel and buy gas bricks at the supermarket. The bricks would just fit into a compartment in the car somewhere without muss or fuss. Sort of like the battery pack replacement ideas.
I didn't ask her about hauling a 60 pound "ten gallon" gasoline gel pack out to her car.
Audi says U.S. will get clean diesels at a premium
Johan de Nysschen, president of Audi of America, says that ultimately Audi sees itself as selling 20 to 25 percent of its vehicles in the United States with diesel powertrains. For the Audi Q7 crossover, Audi's first diesel here, diesel penetration is 35 percent, he said, and the brand ran short of diesels during model-year changeover.
The share is even higher for the A3 TDI subcompact, he added.
The bad news?
But, de Nysschen said, Audi is supporting the technology financially: “There certainly is a price premium, which we are partially recovering, but not totally.”
So prices may be rising once the initial reluctance on the part of consumers is over.
Judging from some of the comments here, I am beginning to see why the USA is not covered with Diesel-powered vehicles. There is a lot of misinformation floating about.
*) One fact is that Diesel is VERY hard to ignite with just a spark and is much safer than gasoline ever will be. *) Another fact is that Diesel has about 30% MORE energy per gallon than gasoline....this means diesel would have to cost 30% more JUST TO BREAK EVEN. *) Also, the original intent of Rudulph Diesel was to develop an engine that runs on PEANUT OIL. It is the original "green" engine. SURPRISE!!... A diesel engine can run on almost any oil.
The facts are in.... Diesel power beats a gasoline hybred in almost every "test". (except perhaps inner-city-driving) The reason you do not hear much about these "test" results is because the 'greenies' do a good job of hiding the facts from the common folk (as witnessed by my original point.)
I will continue to enjoy my lifetime average of 50MPG (800 miles per tankfull) while other folks burn up their money on gasoline.
Here in San Diego diesel has been priced well below RUG for at least the last 6 months. When the winter sets in and diesel goes above RUG, we should be able to get some good deals on diesel vehicles. Right now they are at a premium above MSRP.
Another fact is that no one will EVER buy a diesel vehicle over a gasoline vehicle simply "because the fuel is harder to ignite than gasoline."
That is the King of all non-factors.
Until ULSD and modern diesel exhaust scrubbing technology, diesel exhaust has just not been clean enough.
It is plenty clean NOW, but Joe Public needs to be educated about that fact. And the numerous positive articles about the new clean diesel sedans which have been published all over the place are a good start.
Coldest summer on record for much of the USA. Heating oil sales already raising the price in some areas. We can still get ULSD under $3. Hard to find RUG that cheap here. Costco RUG is $2.97. Cheapest diesel is $2.47. Average price $2.79. Makes those Jetta TDIs mighty tempting right now.
Summer averaged 1 degree cooler than last year, 0.4 degrees cooler than the average summer.
Overall, when the Earth's land areas and oceans are included together, the three-month June-August period measured as the third-warmest summer on record. Global climate records go back to 1880.
One exception to the warmth was the north-central USA and central Canada, which had an unusually cool summer due to a persistent trough of low pressure that kept the area cloudy and cool.
In the process of comparing a hybrid equivalent to the 2009 VW Jetta TDI , 30 c/41 h/38 comb,with real world data @40.2 mpg , the 2009 Toyota Camry Hybrid seems to fill the bill. MPG is 33 c/34 h/34 comb, with real world data @ 36.8 mpg. link title you can customize variables such as: yearly miles, prices for RUG, PUG, D2, E85, LPG, highway vs city percentages, etc.
it's a camry. That takes it out of the mix immediately.
I would be happy to get a deisel if I go back to my 90 mile/day commute at some point. All highway, sometimes moving, but rarely very fast. Probably better deisel than hybrid usage.
the other problem, to me at least (and many people that actually enjoy driving) is the nature of many hybrids. Some are getting better, but while they may get good MPG (in the right conditions) they tend to be lousy cars. At least the ones that get real high MPG.
reasonable fuel price (roughly like RUG, but not more than PUG), and a price for the car that isn't too much higher than a gasser.
with the performance (torque especially) opf the new deisels, you almost have to compare them to the V6 models for performance (not just 0-60), which makes the MPG difference bigger, and price difference smaller.
Oh, and it has to be equipped with al the goodies. No strippo fuel miser models!
Sorry, but I am one of those weirdos who realizes every time I fuel up that the diesel I put in my car is not going to explode if some doofus is smoking. A few years ago, there was a huge explosion (and deaths) in my neighborhood gas station while people were fueling, and it wasn't from diesel igniting.
Physics accounts for the fact that diesel fuel is harder to ignite and explode than gasoline.
My point was (and remains) that no LOGICAL, SANE person is going to say, "I'm buying a diesel sedan over a gasoline sedan ONLY because of the lesser chance of a fuel explosion."
It all adds up to the superiority of diesel fuel. What you fail to recognize is the facts that the highly dangerous gasoline was pushed onto the automotive industry by John D. Rockefeller. It contains as many as 400 toxic chemicals depending on the make up of the crude oil distilled. Just because an automaker is capable of adding thousands of dollars worth of gadgetry to match the inherent efficiency of diesel does not make it a desirable choice.
Bottom line a diesel powered vehicle is NOT going to explode from a spark in a collision as is possible with the highly volatile RUG or PUG. It is your choice. No SANE person would choose a gas car if they know the truth. We are treated like mushrooms by the oil companies and automakers.
After they make everything they call valuable out of oil—plastics, drugs, pesticides, industrial chemicals—everything’s that left over is dumped into the gasoline. So on any given day there are 400 toxic chemicals dumped into gasoline, and those might not necessarily be the same chemicals the next day. It’s whatever’s left over.
Yes there are costs getting diesel cars clean enough for CARB. Same for gas cars and hybrids. The Catalytic Converter on a Prius costs over $1000 to replace. Prior to SULEV II, Cat converters were about $50. It would be interesting to get the actual cost for both to meet the EPA emissions.
Excuse me, but I referred to myself as a weirdo. And yes you are right, no one is going to buy a diesel ONLY because the fuel is so much safer. This weirdo was merely pointing out that it was one of the factors in my decision.
A TDI from Audi is more than just another diesel - it is, in fact, a dynamic power unit and a rich source of driving pleasure. At the 27th annual Lake Wörther Tour being held in the Austria province of Carinthia from May 21-25, Audi is demonstrating the potential of TDI technology with a very special concept study: the Audi A3 TDI clubsport quattro is powered by an engine delivering a whole 165 kW (224 hp) from its displacement of two liters. And with a torque of 450 Nm (331.90 lb-ft), it endows the premium compact model with the pulling power of a sports car.
What would I have to do to get that kind of HP and torque out of the Golf TDI coming to a VW store near US? It is the same engine in both vehicles with some slight mods. I got a feeling the DSG would not be able to handle the torque. I would have to have the manual transmission. Oh drat.
What would I have to do to get that kind of HP and torque out of the Golf TDI coming to a VW store near US?
What you need to do is relatively simple. All Audi have sone is use a little of the technology that the UK tuners are using. My local Skoda dealer had a Skoda Fabia vRS as his fun car. The Fabia vRS is based on the VW Polo platform and mechanicals and in stock form runs the 1.9 TDi PD at 130bhp through a 6-spd manual, (I ran a stock one for 3 years and still miss it). Anyway, this dealer's fun car was breathed on and showed 225bhp without engine internals being modded. I've had a ride in it and it was just insane. Looks like 260bhp is about as far as you can usefully go for road use without major reworking. Have a wander around this UK site and get the Visa card out.
beware of these new diesel, they are very delicate. If you fill a diesel with gas by mistake you can run in deep trouble. I have 09 MB GL 320bluetec and filled with gas by mistake. did not run the car at all still costing me to the tune of $800 to get the fuel out and flushed. If you run these engine with gas you can destroy fuel pump, exhaust sytem etc and can cost you arm and leg. I got quote of all the way upto $8000.
HUH?? I dont understand... that is like saying "Dont put swiss-cheese in the crankcase", "Dont hammer nails in the tires" or "Dont use paint-remover to wash it". What I am saying is - Just because YOU accidently made a mistake should not raise a red-flag that these engines are somehow poorly-designed or "delicate".
You are somewhat accurate in using the word "delicate" in reguard to the fuel. Running bio-diesel in a modern diesel may cause problems unless the manufacturer SPECIFICALLY approves such fuels. (fuel-injectors may plug up)
Also --- One must use the correctly-specified engine-oil lest the camshaft may destroy itself. The antifreeze is also kinda special too. In that respect, these modern diesels need to be treated properly. Letting your corner-mechanic work on a modern diesel is asking for trouble.
I think it's a shame someone could have the means to buy such a vehicle yet still make such a bonehead mistake. There's no excuse, and to blame personal ignorance on a "delicate" vehicle is simply irresponsible and shameful. It's user error, nothing more. Don't blame the tool when the craftsman is negligent.
I think it's kind of dumb not to mandate different nozzles so that it's almost impossible not be able to cram diesel into a gas engine. Diesel nozzles used to be the same as unleaded nozzles I think, but now most pumps that I notice all use the smaller ones.
I'm not all that fond of the all-in-one pumps that simply have one nozzle and a green button to select the diesel grade. You guys should have to go to the truck stops like the good old days. :P
My neighbor with the old Rabbit diesel pickup and the full size diesel pickup got a new (to him) Passat diesel wagon recently. It's pretty nice - I've yet to hear it rattling as he heads off to work in it, unlike the other two that I can here from a block away.
I was surprised to see a BP station using a green nozzle on their RUG pump. I looked at all the pumps which were the same. They used a black one for premium. Did not sell diesel.
I realized it when I was fueling. A honest mistake should not cause arm and leg to fix it when vehicle did not get started. It is costing $ 800 to get the fuel out and if you started the vehicle will cost $6000-$8000 You make a decision if it is worth taking risk. Lot of people got pumped gas in full service station, some one borrowed your vehicle and filled up gas, or in my case diesel station's other nozzle was gas. When people start driving in early morning made mistake. In European blog you can find tones of info on these mistake but those are still old technology, you can call "Fuel Assist" and they will get you up and running on the spot in 45 min and will cost you only GBP199 in UK but in the case of these MB they need to be disassemble and flushed out. And if you started the car, then many parts needs to be replaced.
"It is estimated that at least 150,000 drivers misfuel each year – one every three and a half minutes – generating around 7.5 million litres of contaminated fuel or the equivalent of three Olympic-sized swimming pools.
95 per cent of them are people putting petrol into diesel vehicles due to the wider diesel filler neck and narrower unleaded nozzle "
Last year, I ended up with a full tank of unleaded in my '98 Cummins. I think I was lucky that it was a full tank, because the truck only ran for a mile, then died (probably better than running for hundreds of miles on a more dilute mixture). Here's the kicker: I filled up at the 'big rig' pump, the one with nozzles on both sides of the vehicle. Turns out the fuel distributor had filled the underground diesel tank with unleaded (and may have filled the unleaded tank with diesel? not sure). The fuel distributor paid the bill to get me towed, drained, and have the fuel system diagnosed.
Beware! not all "green" pump handles are diesel, look at the label on the pump! I have used many diesels over the last 40 years, from car to big earth moving machines, and it's the only way to go, but, use synthetic oil 100%, in all diesels, cars on up. saves on ware and tare, if you have a problems come up with the engine bearings and so on, the synthetic lube "may" save the day.
Are people that inattantive, or are the respective nozzles that poorly marked?
Where I buy gas, IIRC diesel is in a green nozzle, gas comes from a black nozzle, on different sides of the pump. I also pretty sure you have to press a marked button for diesel as you do when you select the grade of gas - so it would take multiple brain farts to do it...or if not, the lack of selecting a grade should clue someone in. I guess I just can't imagine making that mistake. I can imagine it happens a bit in some places (like England) though :shades:
I always thought that green was the color for diesel and rightly so.
That is why I looked several times at the pump before I filled my Sequoia with RUG from a green nozzle at a BP in KY. All their Unleaded used green pump handles. Not sure their thinking. It is hard to believe someone able to afford a $75k Mercedes would be that inattentive to his vehicle.
Not sure if it makes it safer or riskier, but NJ (along with what, Oregon?) donoesn't allow self serve. So, you get some old man that doesn't speak anything passing for English putting your fuel in.
BP likes green, so I guess they carried the color scheme over to the pump handles.
I don't have a deisel (except for when I drive the Ryder Freighliner for the band), but I do know some stations by me have a stand along pump. That seems a lot safer.
I guess there is no way to prevent cross contamination though, since 1 nozzle will always be smaller than the other. Just have to decide do you want diesel in you gasser, or vice versa!
Probably safer to make the small hole diesel, since there are way more gas cars running around.
actually, I may be looking at a diesel soon. I may be switching back to a long commute soon (90/day, mostly highway, although not always moving!). If I do, I may get a new or newer car, and obviously MPG will be important. It just seems like a perfect set up for the positives of a diesel.
Until you get to be my age and find yourself doing stuff like that all the time. :P
One example - like many of y'all, I've been posting here for ~9 years now. I'm sure a neurosurgeon would have a field day comparing posts and noting how many words I leave out of my paragraphs now. Usually I catch them in edit mode, but lots more errors slip through these days (just caught one in this post in fact).
And now I have to worry about pumping the wrong fuel in my car at a "gas" station. Sheesh.
I guess question now is should it be costing $800 to clear the fuel from the tank. what I got quote so far (don't have the full bill) is 2 hr to drop the tank, 2 hr to put it back, 1 hr cleaning the tank, wiping????????????, 1 hr for diagnoses????? So figure this with this new technology or just dealers are trying to screw you when you can not even take risk to start the car.
I think the dealer is screwing you. I would say draining the tank and just refilling with ULSD would be sufficient. What ever was pumped into the lines could be flushed by opening at the filter and replacing it also. I cannot imagine a trace of gas making much difference in the car running until it is all flushed out by fresh diesel. I think the dealer is just covering their butt. Kind of like a Dr prescribing an MRI for a sore arm.
Yes it is a MB dealer Inskip at Warwick RI. Called MB for help to find out what should be the procedure and they are kind a going what ever dealer says. In UK where problem is so common 150,000 people makes mistake every year. And 1.5 million gallon of contaminated fuel is involved so, AA ( I guess there version of AAA) has service called fuel assist and a Van comes in does the business in 45 min. Then what the hell MB dealer has to spend 6 hr for. I guess one is right like Dr. prescribing MRI for sore arm or THIS IS THE WAY BLUETEC WAS BUILT.
You might be able to do better by an independent shop. Just because a dealer says something doesn't make it true. They care about their own profit margins as much as anything else.
Comments
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I didn't ask her about hauling a 60 pound "ten gallon" gasoline gel pack out to her car.
Now.... go... ask your local FD what would you need to store a barrel of RUG to PUG. (
(42/55 gals) Let us all know what you all find out.
My advice? Try NEITHER at home !!!
http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/fuellube/firesist/default.htm
Audi says U.S. will get clean diesels at a premium
Johan de Nysschen, president of Audi of America, says that ultimately Audi sees itself as selling 20 to 25 percent of its vehicles in the United States with diesel powertrains. For the Audi Q7 crossover, Audi's first diesel here, diesel penetration is 35 percent, he said, and the brand ran short of diesels during model-year changeover.
The share is even higher for the A3 TDI subcompact, he added.
The bad news?
But, de Nysschen said, Audi is supporting the technology financially: “There certainly is a price premium, which we are partially recovering, but not totally.”
So prices may be rising once the initial reluctance on the part of consumers is over.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090917/CARNEWS/909179997
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
*) One fact is that Diesel is VERY hard to ignite with just a spark and is much safer than gasoline ever will be.
*) Another fact is that Diesel has about 30% MORE energy per gallon than gasoline....this means diesel would have to cost 30% more JUST TO BREAK EVEN.
*) Also, the original intent of Rudulph Diesel was to develop an engine that runs on PEANUT OIL. It is the original "green" engine. SURPRISE!!... A diesel engine can run on almost any oil.
The facts are in.... Diesel power beats a gasoline hybred in almost every "test". (except perhaps inner-city-driving) The reason you do not hear much about these "test" results is because the 'greenies' do a good job of hiding the facts from the common folk (as witnessed by my original point.)
I will continue to enjoy my lifetime average of 50MPG (800 miles per tankfull) while other folks burn up their money on gasoline.
That is the King of all non-factors.
Until ULSD and modern diesel exhaust scrubbing technology, diesel exhaust has just not been clean enough.
It is plenty clean NOW, but Joe Public needs to be educated about that fact. And the numerous positive articles about the new clean diesel sedans which have been published all over the place are a good start.
Overall, when the Earth's land areas and oceans are included together, the three-month June-August period measured as the third-warmest summer on record. Global climate records go back to 1880.
One exception to the warmth was the north-central USA and central Canada, which had an unusually cool summer due to a persistent trough of low pressure that kept the area cloudy and cool.
The Camry is app $3,500 more MSRP.
I would be happy to get a deisel if I go back to my 90 mile/day commute at some point. All highway, sometimes moving, but rarely very fast. Probably better deisel than hybrid usage.
the other problem, to me at least (and many people that actually enjoy driving) is the nature of many hybrids. Some are getting better, but while they may get good MPG (in the right conditions) they tend to be lousy cars. At least the ones that get real high MPG.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
with the performance (torque especially) opf the new deisels, you almost have to compare them to the V6 models for performance (not just 0-60), which makes the MPG difference bigger, and price difference smaller.
Oh, and it has to be equipped with al the goodies. No strippo fuel miser models!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
D2: $2.75
RUG: $3.09
PUG: $3.29
I not only love driving my Jetta, I love filling it up.
Physics accounts for the fact that diesel fuel is harder to ignite and explode than gasoline.
My point was (and remains) that no LOGICAL, SANE person is going to say, "I'm buying a diesel sedan over a gasoline sedan ONLY because of the lesser chance of a fuel explosion."
Bottom line a diesel powered vehicle is NOT going to explode from a spark in a collision as is possible with the highly volatile RUG or PUG. It is your choice. No SANE person would choose a gas car if they know the truth. We are treated like mushrooms by the oil companies and automakers.
After they make everything they call valuable out of oil—plastics, drugs, pesticides, industrial chemicals—everything’s that left over is dumped into the gasoline. So on any given day there are 400 toxic chemicals dumped into gasoline, and those might not necessarily be the same chemicals the next day. It’s whatever’s left over.
History of Gasoline
Diesel sedans are a solid alternative to other high-mileage gasoline hybrid cars.
But for diesel car exhaust to be as clean as it needs to be, that requires a little bit of money too.
Excuse me, but I referred to myself as a weirdo. And yes you are right, no one is going to buy a diesel ONLY because the fuel is so much safer. This weirdo was merely pointing out that it was one of the factors in my decision.
What would I have to do to get that kind of HP and torque out of the Golf TDI coming to a VW store near US? It is the same engine in both vehicles with some slight mods. I got a feeling the DSG would not be able to handle the torque. I would have to have the manual transmission. Oh drat.
Currently the Jetta DSG (2.0 L nexus) has the uppper end of app 260 # ft of torque with a 236# ft (stated) output or 10% head room.
332# ft of torque takes even a 6 speed manual to a whole different transmission upgrade.
What you need to do is relatively simple. All Audi have sone is use a little of the technology that the UK tuners are using. My local Skoda dealer had a Skoda Fabia vRS as his fun car. The Fabia vRS is based on the VW Polo platform and mechanicals and in stock form runs the 1.9 TDi PD at 130bhp through a 6-spd manual, (I ran a stock one for 3 years and still miss it). Anyway, this dealer's fun car was breathed on and showed 225bhp without engine internals being modded. I've had a ride in it and it was just insane. Looks like 260bhp is about as far as you can usefully go for road use without major reworking. Have a wander around this UK site and get the Visa card out.
Jabbasport
If I messed up the link, just Google Jabbasport.
You are somewhat accurate in using the word "delicate" in reguard to the fuel. Running bio-diesel in a modern diesel may cause problems unless the manufacturer SPECIFICALLY approves such fuels. (fuel-injectors may plug up)
Also --- One must use the correctly-specified engine-oil lest the camshaft may destroy itself. The antifreeze is also kinda special too. In that respect, these modern diesels need to be treated properly. Letting your corner-mechanic work on a modern diesel is asking for trouble.
I'm not all that fond of the all-in-one pumps that simply have one nozzle and a green button to select the diesel grade. You guys should have to go to the truck stops like the good old days. :P
My neighbor with the old Rabbit diesel pickup and the full size diesel pickup got a new (to him) Passat diesel wagon recently. It's pretty nice - I've yet to hear it rattling as he heads off to work in it, unlike the other two that I can here from a block away.
"It is estimated that at least 150,000 drivers misfuel each year – one every three and a half minutes – generating around 7.5 million litres of contaminated fuel or the equivalent of three Olympic-sized swimming pools.
95 per cent of them are people putting petrol into diesel vehicles due to the wider diesel filler neck and narrower unleaded nozzle "
That's in the UK.
New service launched for drivers who fill up with wrong fuel (Automobile Association Limited)
I wonder where that delivery driver is working now.....
I have used many diesels over the last 40 years, from car to big earth moving machines, and it's the only way to go, but, use synthetic oil 100%, in all diesels,
cars on up. saves on ware and tare, if you have a problems come up with the engine bearings and so on, the synthetic lube "may" save the day.
Where I buy gas, IIRC diesel is in a green nozzle, gas comes from a black nozzle, on different sides of the pump. I also pretty sure you have to press a marked button for diesel as you do when you select the grade of gas - so it would take multiple brain farts to do it...or if not, the lack of selecting a grade should clue someone in. I guess I just can't imagine making that mistake. I can imagine it happens a bit in some places (like England) though :shades:
That is why I looked several times at the pump before I filled my Sequoia with RUG from a green nozzle at a BP in KY. All their Unleaded used green pump handles. Not sure their thinking. It is hard to believe someone able to afford a $75k Mercedes would be that inattentive to his vehicle.
BP likes green, so I guess they carried the color scheme over to the pump handles.
I don't have a deisel (except for when I drive the Ryder Freighliner for the band), but I do know some stations by me have a stand along pump. That seems a lot safer.
I guess there is no way to prevent cross contamination though, since 1 nozzle will always be smaller than the other. Just have to decide do you want diesel in you gasser, or vice versa!
Probably safer to make the small hole diesel, since there are way more gas cars running around.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
You wouldn't think so.
Until you get to be my age and find yourself doing stuff like that all the time. :P
One example - like many of y'all, I've been posting here for ~9 years now. I'm sure a neurosurgeon would have a field day comparing posts and noting how many words I leave out of my paragraphs now. Usually I catch them in edit mode, but lots more errors slip through these days (just caught one in this post in fact).
And now I have to worry about pumping the wrong fuel in my car at a "gas" station. Sheesh.
Of course, if the mistake is on the part of the station - mislabeled pumps or tanks filled in error...then the liability is 100% theirs.
So figure this with this new technology or just dealers are trying to screw you when you can not even take risk to start the car.
Well, it's still unreasonable, just not unusual in this case. Matter of semantics.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])