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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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There have been off and on rumors about the B coming to the US, but they never pan out. A B250CDi might be a good mix of performance and economy...the 250 engine, a step up from the 200, is generally seen as the most practical engine in European applications.
MB calls the B-class a "sport tourer" but it is really a small MPV. The last time I looked at one on the MB Canada site, it had a huge option list which could make a very expensive car when loaded - far into C-class territory. That might be a hindrance in this market.
The 200CDI, (140bhp/221lbft), is the biggest engine in the B-Class range and propels the little smoothy pretty well. As far as I know, the 250 diesel is defunct in car use. Next up is the 220CDI, (150/251) then the 280CDI, (190/325) and so on.
Here in the UK, the B-Class hasn't really caught on...............whereas the A3 is a "dime-a-dozen", so to speak.
Although some efficiency is sacrificed, I like the idea of a larger diesel in a smallish car...you still get some performance.
B-class aren't uncommon in Vancouver, but the A3 is probably more common there too.
A 335 is a very attractive package, but is insanely expensive when overpriced...I'd just spend a little more and get an E-class diesel.
Perhaps so... but the inverse is not true. There are many vehicles sold in Canada, for example, that do not contain the US-required stiffiners in the doors for crash-worthiness. If these vehicles find their way into the USA.... They are considerd "Grey-market" and the VIN would not pass scrutiney if you try to register it.
I knew a guy that had a "grey market" BMW... it was quicker and handled better than the other USA-sold BMWs with the same model-name because it was several 100 lbs lighter due to all the 'missing steel'.
As for the driving cycles, it's acknowledged that the EPA method is designed in such a way that diesels are at a disadvantage to gasoline and gasoline-electric, as the driving specifications don't take advantage of the lower rpm range. In Europe where diesels are prevalent, this discrepancy does not occur.
kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
But, Vancouver is full of 90s kei cars, Skylines, Euro model MBs etc.
No kidding, I think it is such a shame that VW doesn't offer a diesel GTI. There is a diesel Golf of course, but even with "sport suspension" it doesn't handle anything like the GTI.
My short list for next car are 2011 CRZ (hybrid sport coupe, 130 hp, 2500 pounds, 45 mpg, very good handling), Golf TDI (diesel 140 hp, 236 lb-ft?, 45-50 mpg, just so-so handling), or if all else fails, a Mini Cooper (overpriced and overstyled, very good handling, 117 hp, 40 mpg). The new Abarth is an outside contender if Fiat brings a diesel over.
It sucks that I have so few choices for really good fuel economy that are also fun to drive. If I didn't mind 30 mpg, the gas GTI would be a solid contender, with the Civic SI in a close race with it. Perhaps even the Volvo C30. But I want a replacement for the Echo that makes at least the same mpg as it does (40 mpg).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The GTI is a thrill ride, and will make a solid 30 mpg in my use. But the diesel will make 45 - big difference to me.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
ANyway, they had a piece about the upcoming flurry of new Diesel models coming to the US. Turns out the flurry died. Honda, GM, Ford and Nissan (at least, might have been more?) all are scrapping or delaying plans for new Diesel engines. Seem to be worried about the regs, but mostly about the fuel prices, and supply of the mid-barrel crude.
Oh well. Some of them sounded nice.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I sure hope this MB pricing isn't going to be indicative of what we can expect to pay for urea-based diesel additives. If so—and once the word gets out—it will torpedo diesel sales (except for the very rich).
Bob
Still fun to drive, as I recall. I did the earlier 1.9 litre version ~8 years ago & have been waiting ever since to get one over here.
If one finds it necessary to drive a diesel that swings a bigger (fill in the blank) than anyone else in the vicinity, then urea may be required to placate CARB. Sad.
If you just want a diesel in a moderately decent car, there may be a way to go that doesn't involve urea.
Went by a lukoil station on my way home from work (in PA). Regular was ~2.75, and premium ~3.09. Diesel was 3.99.
Given the price differential, I would have to get some serious good MPG to make up the price differentail, since my Accord runs on regular and will get ~32mpg overall.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
This poster seemed to mirror my thoughts. Stealerships are expensive on parts and labor.
There should be other ways to get around this problem.
That being said, I think MB should include this as a top-off service free of charge under warranty. And BMW/Audi should do the same as they enter the 3.0L diesel market.
Over time I have read that the stealerships do top-off the adblu at the time of an oil change - maybe not even charging for it, but doing it in secret.
CR decided to do their own oil changes, so this step was missed. It makes no sense why they'd change their own oil but not bother to try to refill the adblu. IMHO they are trying to make a dramatic story where there's no substance behind it.
Even if we can buy AdBlue at Walmart it has to be figured into the overall cost per mile vs the gas version of the same vehicle. I think the cost will be better with any of the diesel models at least where diesel is reasonably priced vs RUG.
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And for what the dealer undoubtedly pays for it, a top off of the adblu should be covered with an oil change at wholesale cost, or free when under warranty. Or just train people to do it, it's really no different from adding wiper fluid.
And for what the dealer undoubtedly pays for it, a top off of the adblu should be covered with an oil change at wholesale cost, or free when under warranty. Or just train people to do it, it's really no different from adding wiper fluid.
Agree with all.
I really liked the new 2L TDI jetta manual. I could see it being a top contender for my wife though the rumored new BMW headed our way sort of a sportier compact X3 in diesel would be pretty awesome.
As for our big family hauling - camping - boat towing road tripping machine. The MB ML 320CDI from a size - power and milege standpoint has a whole lot going for it. Deal breaker for me is MB reliability and the run flats.
If subaru came out with a proper 7passenger flat 6 turbo diesel tribeca I'd camp out on the dealers front step till he let me in to buy it.
If Ford offered a diesel in the Flex it would be very interesting - right now its a cool ride with pretty decent performance vs milege but I'm not dropping close to 40K on a "almost" car.
A diesel engine can be designed to pull stumps with 500HP... or can be designed for efficency like the VW 4cylinder. There are not many 4cylinder diesels available in North America right now. The EPA keeps throwing up obsticals and most automakers have simply given up.
The liberty diesel only got a few miles more to the gallon vs the gas which gets horrid mpg for its size. Jeep went cheap tried to unload some old diesel tech after making a big stink out of the diesel concept. It backfired in a big way.
When you had the sprinter van running a much better engine and capable of turning 20+ mpg with a fairly heavy load the older less refined CRD's Jeep unloaded on us were clearly from the cheap parts bin.
The first diesel Sprinters sold here with the 5 cylinder and TipTronic 5 speed were a great package. UPS and FedEx bought 1000s of them. My RV was called the MB Cruiser and it was about 8000 lbs and never got under 20 MPG. I got several tanks on the one long trip we took that were right at 25 MPG. That was cruising 75 MPH across TX. I would love to have that engine transmission in a full sized PU truck or my Sequoia SUV. Plenty of power for the steepest mountain roads.
The difference was he could pull at higher speeds with a head wind and higher speeds on the long climb up to the lake. That and when he's not towing he gets around 16 on average and I get around 13 on average. My logic is why in the hell would I go drop 30+K on a new rig that gets virtually the same milege as my current one?
Which is why we bought the old land crusher to start with it made no sense to buy a new truck when they were getting virtually the same milege as the old ones not to mention for 10-15,000 savings buying old and used I could buy a whole lot of gas before I ever came close to the initial cost of a new ride.
So I wait for something like the 3.2L ML to finally turn some nice numbers.
Given its MB - better reliability in say an 09 or even 2010 model would dramatically make up for the non urea 08 if the 08 is spending more time in the shop. Lets face it one trip to the shop with one of these and any savings or hassle you think your avoiding by going pre urea goes right out the window :-)
If MB didn't have such a horrendous reliability issue the past few years my only issue would be the run flats. A cool car means nothing if it's always in the shop
To the title of the topic, your statement is exactly what keeps me from buying a diesel right now. The choices are limited, and the manufacturers offering them (BMW, Mercedes, VW/Audi) are quality-challenged with some of the highest maintenance costs around. I need a car in the next several months, and I'm tempted to lease a diesel VW to give the market a few years to flesh out. I'm curious to see if the CC will offer a 2011 model diesel. Also, if the one I get is rock-solid, I can buy it off the lease.
That said, I'd love to see Honda/Nissan/Subaru or similar diesels make their way here to put some real competition in the high mileage market.
The facts are that (BMW, Mercedes, VW/Audi) are all above-average in "quality" and workmanship... but some of their products may seem less "reliable" than others due to poor execution (assembled in mexico with components that do not meet designers specifications.)
Oftentimes, this sense of lower "reliability" is due to the owners themselves. All of these (BMW, Mercedes, VW/Audi) come from a German mindset that one should MAINTAIN their machine with impeccable standards. (Use the correct oil, and treat it right.) Some people view their automobile as a finely-tuned machine that needs attention to keep it in top shape.
Other vehicles (Toyota, Honda for example) are designed to be almost ignored from the point-of-view of maintenance-practices. These vehicles tend to be booring to drive and low performance. Frankly, some people view their car as a "tool" to get them back-an-forth to work. This kind of car meets their requirements better than other choices.
Additionally, anyone who reads CR (Consumer Reports) verbatum... is not understanding what is being reported upon. Lets never forget that it is the CR subscribers that answer questionairs to create the data. This IN ITSELF is a biased reporting system because most of the subscribers to CR own Hondas because CR tells them to buy Hondas. (A study in the "self-fulfilling prophecy")
The FACTS are that ALL AUTOMOBILES have problems. Even Hondas with their head-gaskets and Toyotas with their xmissions.... you just dont hear about those as much as some others.
In the end, life is too short to fuss over such things... drive what makes you happy. If it breaks, fix it because you like to drive it.
My brother-in-law and I have similar driving styles. Setting aside expected maintenance items (brakes, battery, etc), he's spent over $5K on his 2003 Passat, and has lived with several ongoing problems. I've spent $350 on my 2003 Accord (with higher mileage than his -- over 100K). Besides the money, he's lived with the time in the shop, an off-and-on air conditioner, radio buzzing, broken window switches, etc.
I hope that the recent improvements in some VWs indicate a new commitment to quality, but the recent test drive I took where the power seat didn't work wasn't encouraging.
There's no worry there, by comparison!
Volvo owners are already in the euro-marquee-unreliability-zone with their Volvos
(imho Volvo make's fantastic cars.. but not as reliable as a GM or toyota!).
sincerely... an owner of 4 VW TDIs plus
96 volvo 855
01 volvo v70 2.4T
04 volvo xc90
Realizing it is all semantics, but I have to agree with you. I think my Passat was screwed together well, has some very nice design features, and is a safe vehicle.
But I don't consider coil packs, coolant temp sensors, and fuel pumps as maintenance type issues, either.
Now having said that when you pay top dollar for a premium product thats sold as a premium product in the US - you do not expect to have ongoing issues with things such as doors not latching closed (keyless door entry issues) fairly well documented MB issue right now. Or rear hatch not opening or closing even manually again a MB issue since 06 that still remains.
Yet you have Toyota owners with similar or virtually the same options that would never expect to have any of these issues because they are very rare to start with.
Any auto builder that has year after year been at the bottom of the reliability list regardless of their product has a major PR and brand image issue regardless if there is truth to it or not. The only way you fix this is by taking very clear actions to correct the issue something Toyota is hands down the leader in. Just look at the buy back of rusted out frames on their Trucks there isn't a auto builder out there who has ever done this on a scale that was promoted and proudly so.
That however does not mean Toyota is better regarding reliability than Say GM - Ford or even MB. It simply means that Toyota owners can rest easier that Toyota will step up to the plate if their products have major flaws. Something I've never seen GM - Ford - MB ever - EVER do! period....
Now if I'm dropping 40+K on a largish 7 passenger SUV which almost every major maker has - there are some factors most people consider now days. $3 gas - reliability and the auto makers reputation of fixing it and making things right. The brand image of Toyota for the most part shows well for making things right and reliability.
MB brand image and product right now only stands out in style and milege with the CDI - the brand image of reliability and MB doing the right thing fail miserably.
I hear you, and it sounds as though you're a satisfied owner of one of those cars...I'm happy you chose well. For me, with a manufacturer with such a marginal reliability history over the last decade, I'm from Missouri. I need to be convinced of their new commitment to quality by more than just a model or two out of the product line. I'm going from memory, but I believe the Passat went from average to well below in just a few model years around 2000.
Good point, but that only means I need to update my alias! I really liked my S70 turbo, but I'm now a three Honda owner. I'd like to find a more refined sport sedan later this year (quieter, better radio, great seat), but I'm spoiled by the reliability and gas mileage of my 4 cyl top-line Accord. It's 97% as good as the $35-40K sedans out there, and I can't convince myself to spend the extra on a car that gets 7mpg less in order to provide horsepower far beyond my need...and/or one that puts me on a first name basis with my mechanic while putting his kids through college.
That's where my diesel interest comes in. It's hard to believe with a market this size that there's essentially no option for a realiable near-lux sedan that gets 40mpg on the highway. I'm hoping against hope that the 2011 auto shows will surprise in this area and provide more competition for the German manufacturers.
Were most Golf diesels built in Mexico or Germany? Virtually all Passats I see are German, but all Jettas I see, diesel included, are Mexican. A co-worker of mine had a Jetta TDi for 3 years, and was able to sell it for a grand more than he owed on it - and he rolled negative equity into that loan. He had no major issues, but frequent small issues.
I think all the Golfs are built in Europe. The Jetta in Mexico. My 05 Passat Wagon was built in Germany. The sedans I believe were from Mexico. VW is the largest MFG in Mexico last I read. Largest in Brazil as well. I think VW got burnt out on American buyers. The most of them have no idea what a fine driving car should be like. With CamCords on top you can tell what they are after. A boat on wheels. Just something they can wallow to work in.
The GL and ML have a 3.2L V6 CDI which is actually a pretty impressive and refined engine paired with a 7spd transmission. Totally different animals in every manner