The GL320 CDI I test drove was ok. I did not like the 7 speed transmission. It automatically downshifted when I let off the accelerator. Not sure if it was programming or what. It had more than enough power. However compared to the BMW X5 diesel it was not really in the same league. The X5 is a rocket with 425 Ft Lbs of torque. Both are more than I need. I would opt for less power and better mileage. So I am patiently waiting for some more choices from Germany. As the rest of the automakers seem to have their head in the sand.
Alternatives to the MB stuff could be either the Audi Q7 or Q5, both with the 3.0 TDi, (237bhp/369lbft), or, if you want to be really silly - the Q7 with the 4.2 V8 TDi, (335bhp/561lbft). But, of course, there is a fuel economy penalty with the bigger engine in what is only missing a big gun on the roof to double up as a MBT.
To be truly epically silly there is also the 7.0 V12 TDi option. Must be aimed at the Texan oil millionaire market, methinks. From there on I think you're probably looking at Peterbilt et al.
I think the 3.0L TDI is the only VW/Audi SUV option in the US currently. The Touareg V10 TDI was offered in all 50 states up till 2008. I am hoping they offer the smaller CUV either the Q5 or Tiguan with the 2.0L TDI. MPG is more important to me that all out acceleration. The 4 cylinder diesels all have enough torque to pull my long hills without downshifting like you have to do with gas engines.
Driving a new car 6K miles in 18 months and losing a mere 4 grand is pretty fantastic. You got lucky with choosing those vehicles.
I still have to wonder if German built VWs are less problematic than Mexican built cars...maybe better parts subcontractors or something. Every Passat sedan and wagon, gas or diesel, that I see in local used car rags has a "W" VIN. Every Jetta sedan diesel or gas has a "3" VIN, but Jetta wagons seem to have a "W" VIN as well. With Golfs it seems to be random, but there aren't many of those for sale...I do notice newer cars tend to be "W", and all Beetles appear to be Mexican built. The cars are so enormously popular in Germany, built locally, that I can't imagine they have the same issues seen here.
It would be interesting to see the VW sales figures for Latin America. They seem to be very plentiful when I visit down there. I think they were still building the old style Beetle up till a couple years ago. Very common rental cars. The old bug is still one of the best for rough roads.
I believe all the wagons both Jetta and Passat were German built. They are still highly sought after with the TDI engine. One of the best resale of any vehicle going.
It took me over 6 months listing my MB Cruiser on Craigslist before I sold it. I bought it in December 05 from a dealer in Colorado Springs that did not want to get stuck till Spring. So I got it for about $8k less than the local dealer would sell for. I tried to get most of my money back. Finally let the guy have it for $55k cash. I had a bit over $59k in it with airline tickets to Denver. I think at the time you advised me against taking a 2001 MB S600 in trade. It was plush but not really my style. I still have the cash and that car is only worth about $15k now.
I bet the Latin American models aren't as loaded as what we see...less to go wrong. The old MB that go a million miles aren't model year 2000 S500s, they are 1977 240Ds.
I think the diesels they get in Germany are tuned differently than ours too. I saw tons of Jetta sportwagons in Germany, and more than once I would be cruising at around 120 and would get passed by a Passat diesel wagon. I couldn't believe it.
Yeah, an early V12 W220 would have been a bad idea. It wouldn't be worth so much now, and probably would have sucked down another 5K in maintenance and repairs. The 2003+ models are better, but V12 cars of all types kind of scare me. That's another car we should get in diesel form, 30+ mpg from a luxo-tank has some appeal.
I would buy a Jeep Wrangler (Unlimited) if there was an option for diesel. The current gas option is underpowered and very thirsty. This has been rumored for years, but they can't/won't seem to make it happen.
With the current condition of Jeep under the Chrysler/FIAT Umbrella, it would be difficult to trust them to do it right. A Mercedes engine from the C250 CDI would be great in a Wrangler. 368 ft lbs of torque is plenty for crawling over rocks and blasting through streams. That 204 HP 4 cylinder diesel rockets the C class sedan 0-62 MPH in 7 seconds. That would be plenty fast enough for me. Just getting one past the EPA would be a real challenge.
The E250 CDI would be a killer car. You could have Mercedes luxury and the Brits rate it 64.2 MPG (53.46 US MPG) on the highway. What's not to like about that? If you can go by the UK pricing it the car would be about $46k in the USA. That is about $5k less than the current E350 CDI. And the 0-62 MPH is still a respectable 7.7 seconds.
The 2010 E class does not list a diesel. So maybe the E250 CDI is on its way.
Yeah there's no E diesel this year. I have to believe it will come back, maybe with the smaller yet capable new engine. Traditionally the diesels have cost no more than the 6cyl gas...the smaller diesel should undercut both by maybe a couple grand.
I drove an E200 CDi when I was there...a little too loud and slow to fit the MBUSA brand image, but mixed mileage in the mid 40s was nothing to complain about for a car off that size and comfort.
For me to buy a diesel in the USA, it will have to 1) be available, 2) get very good to great gas mileage, and 3) be a small to medium sized truck or SUV. The VW Amarok, Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, and Euro Ford Ranger all fit this bill, but NONE are available in the USA! Most Americans don't know what CLEAN diesel is, and that doesn't help.
That is a very true statement. Most Americans are clueless about modern diesel cars and small PU Trucks. All they know about diesel is the dump truck in front of them spewing black smoke that stinks. Even that should be a thing of the past if they are burning mandated ULSD. Stigmas take a long time to go away.
I'm with you on the diesel PU or SUV. The Tiquan with the 2.0L TDI sold in the EU would be a top choice also. Toyota might want to think about bringing there very successful small diesel PU to fill in the gaps the next few months till they get their act together on this latest recall.
That's a neat idea, gagrice. I doubt it would be possible for Toyota to homologate a diesel pickup truck so quickly but it would be niiiiiiice and would get me into a Toyota showroom for the first time ever.
That's a neat idea, gagrice. I doubt it would be possible for Toyota to homologate a diesel pickup truck so quickly but it would be niiiiiiice and would get me into a Toyota showroom for the first time ever.
Sadly that is the crap that Toyota sells to Americans. The rest of the world get their World class trucks with diesel engines that get 35-40 MPG and hold up for 100s of 1000s of miles on 3rd World roads. Only in America will Toyota be able to sell that POC Tundra. Now under several recalls.
Toyata or BMW are really good options. While buying a small truck or SUV is something that suits all purposes and also gives mobility with more people.
iWhile this might be a late response to your post and off topic, Toyota has been behind the power curve on (US market) full sized pick up trucks for almost 20 years, since the introduction of the T100. A diesel behind the power curve full sized truck will only solidify how behind the power curve they still remain!? So while they might already sell a stellar full sized turbo diesel pick up truck on the world wide market, (some place, some where, some how?) It is really hard to predict (from a consumers point of view) what THAT diesel incarnated product would end up being in the process of compliance on our shores. While a Toyota products "FAN," I have not bought one in 14 years. The other truth, if I had my druthers I would not buy another gasser car, if the diesel options was viable.
I could have SWORN I posted here so I could find it again tonight and after HOURS of frig searching, I realize someone deleted it with no email heads-up or anything. :mad:
Anyway...from the manual tranny thread as requested..
"#6217 of 6218 Re: Diesel with 5/6 speed manual [rdub7] by steve_ HOST Jan 17, 2011 (11:04 pm)
Replying to: rdub7 (Jan 17, 2011 10:49 pm)
It's pretty common knowledge that diesels emit way more particulates than gasoline engines. (Science Daily). And yeah, heavy trucks are a big part of the problem - maybe you've heard about the San Diego port project.
We really should move this over to the diesel discussion I linked a few posts back." ____________
I don't necessarily 'buy' everything 'scientists' are selling. A prudent, forward thinking person should try to remember that they do have to justify their paycheck just like anyone else.. I'm sure they know how to cure cancer too, but that would be the end of support funds the very day they'd make that announcement...so for now and likely forever, the cure will be forever conveniently elusive.
But I do know (and it is even somewhat just common sense and the ability to reason) that far more work can be done on a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gasoline. You take those same amt of particulates you mention, gathered from a gas engine choking itself on raw gas practically because you just can't get enough gas into the engine to get the work done, and weigh them against the particulates from the diesel engine. NOW we are comparing on more even grd. If gas was such an efficient source of energy, locomotives would use it to power their generators instead of diesel. GAs creates a LOT more waste in heat out the tail pipe. Again, more emissions. All these reports of emission pollution are skewed and do not tell the real tale.
You take a brand new gas engined large truck (and keep in mind they have never made a gas engine large enough to have it compete with a diesel in hill climbing) on a wet humid day, and it chokes itself on raw gas as it tries to burn as much energy as it can to get what limited torque it has to the grd. There is so much raw fuel involved you could smell the raw unburned gas at stop. And due to humidity and high temp levels, sometimes you could hardly get the gas job to carburate properly.
The efficiency of diesel combustion is so efficient, it literally takes longer for the engine to come up to temperature. Unlike gas, which expels a lot of its energy as heat out the exhaust.
Imagine the smog in Cali if all the big trucks were put back on gas. I'm sure your wife would be suffering asthma attacks worse than she does now.
But I digress. I am but such a minority voice in a world filled with ignorance.
Diesel passenger cars (like 10 Jetta TDI) with "proper pollution devices" pollute no more than a 10 Toyota Camry.
However, it would seem it would seem the host implies that the one half of one percent of the diesel passenger cars (1.272 M) do more of the polluting than the 98% gasser RUG to PUG passenger cars 252.252 M (of 257.4M) !!
1.272 M diesel passenger cars pollute no more than 1.272 M Toyota Camry's. They even use LESS fuel, than even a Toyota Camry hybrid. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/
If nothing else the horrible gas they sell in CA is reason enough to buy a diesel vehicle. I lose at least 10% using CA mandated RUG over what is sold in all the surrounding states.
I cannot see me buying anything but diesel on my next vehicle purchase. Diesel rarely goes higher than premium gasoline, and in a large SUV it will nearly double the highway mileage and give 50% improvement in town.
I also do not buy the PM argument. Those studies were all done years ago, long before ULSD was mandated. It would be nice if we could get higher cetane rated diesel in the USA.
What I said over in the MT discussion, and what I don't see broken out in your link was "diesels emit way more particulates than gasoline engines". I thought I had a link handy but can't find it now (may be one back in this discussion).
Gary, the switchgrass or woodchip fuels would fix the corn problem.
Gary, the switchgrass or woodchip fuels would fix the corn problem.
Not really. All new stills will have to be built and we will have to pay off the existing corn stills and pay to dismantle that whole fiasco. At this time there is no proven cost effective biomass ethanol system. From my perspective alternative fuels and energy for the most part is a bust and ripoff of the tax payers. Both here and in the EU. I think I read recently that $100 oil will make diesel from coal viable. We have plenty of coal and the technology is old and proven.
PS Where will the wood chips come from? We have shut down most of our logging industry and use what we do get for paper in our paperless society.
I think you guys must be gunning for me. Just went out to shovel the latest 2" of snow and some guy was plowing the alley with a Deere loader/scraper. The fumes about knocked me down.
Luckily, I had plenty of the white stuff to move around out front while the plow guy was finishing up out back.
Don't you just love the smell of diesel in the morning? He probably uses heating oil that is straight high sulfur diesel. That should be cheaper than ULSD at the pump. You cannot even smell my Kuboto running with ULSD.
The fumes usually don't bother me, but this thing was pretty noxious. City vehicle, so who knows. It's such a poor area up here, maybe they can't afford to replace the filters.
I am no expert in this subject, but (home) heating oil has a whole different mandatory change over schedule (to non existent) to (ULSD) lower sulfur ppm @ 15 ppm. Passenger diesel cars "MANDATORY" change over was October 2006. I have read in passing that (H) HO can be delivered @ 5000 ppm sulfur. ..."the sulfur content in home heating oil in Pennsylvania from as high as 5,000 parts per million (ppm) to 15 ppm and require a 5 percent biodiesel blend in the fuel that 1.2 million Pennsylvania households rely upon to stay warm each winter."... http://paenvironmentdaily.blogspot.com/2010/10/house-fails-to-adopt-low-sulfur-h- - - - - - eating.html Interestingly enough, 5000 ppm is considered "LOW" http://www.americanoilinvestments.com/articles/Oil-Gas-Investments_4658.html. It does beg the question what was it in the past?? :P Needless to say that is 333.33% TIMES higher. Since most ULSD is delivered @ the pump nominally @ 5-7 ppm sulfur, (H) HO can be up to 1000 times more sulfur ppm. (H) HO furnances are NOT required to have pollution devices !!! They also (can) burn up to 24/7 and for literally months @ a time. Passenger car diesels even using ULSD are strictly required to have pollution devices. The 2 latest technologies are EGR andthe DPF. (diesel particulate device)
That's right. And while I am not certain, I think that even the pre "clean diesel" 1.9 TDI from 2006 back, was cleaner than the Camry also. A lot of the emission devices on a clean diesel today, are to ensure particulates created from stop and go driving, get burned. Once on highway, or even a sustained 25 mph or so and up, those are handled through normal combustion.
And particulates aside for now (since to be fair the other side of the coin), there are other very harmful byproducts of gas combustion, that is low or non-existent in diesel exhaust. But the reporting never concentrates on that aspect of course, cuz they are too busy saying, the diesels are loud, or stinky, or messy. I just have to roll my eyes when I hear that. Yes, there are diesel powered vehicles including utility machinery that are running rich due to long ago worn out fuel injectors etc etc. But people used to let big gas engines slide in state of tune also. But regardless, you can never get away from the basic fact that more work can (and always will) be done on a gallon of diesel, than a gal of gas.
All that's changing too, although stuff keeps getting pushed out (to 2030 in some cases).
LA just got rid of their last diesel bus, and there's a big push to get the pollution under control on the diesel school buses. Some port is raising cane over idling cruise ships.
I dunno, by the time diesel manages to get over its reputation in the US, they won't be competitive with hybrid and plug-in cars.
Oh yeah, the loudness. I don't miss hearing my neighbor's pickemup truck and VW pickup in the mornings since I moved from Boise. He was 200' feet away but I could hear him coming and going another 300' down at the intersection on his way home from work.
by the time diesel manages to get over its reputation in the US, they won't be competitive with hybrid and plug-in cars.
However the more ethanol they add to the gas the lower the mileage on the hybrids. Plug-ins and EVs are probably dead out of the gate due to large increases in electricity. They will also be all be useless in cold climates. Batteries don't like being real cold. That is one reason for the lower mileage in the winter with Prius. While a diesel may take a bit to warm up on a cold morning I don't think it hurts the mileage much.
Of course the other issue is available diesel vehicles. VW/Audi is the only company offering high mileage cars at present.
There are some fuel mileage penalties with diesels as they switch you over to 'winter fuel'. This would have a higher content of stove oil, which is more refined. It can be as much as a 10% hit in some applications. The farther north you are, the greater the ratio of winter fuel is blended to avoid gelling in the really cold temps.
Yes, that has been my argument ever since David Suzuki bought the first Prius in Canada. The inefficiency of batteries as the temp drops. And to compound the issue, now you also have an engine that is filling the void of low battery current, that is not well designed, or sized, to do the majority of the duty of propelling the car.
And not to mention that we still have not dealt with the pollution of battery manufacturing or replacement disposal. Those two little tidbits are always conveniently never in the spotlight.
FWIW, I still hold out hope for a greater selection of diesels here in NA. The problem is though, we need better quality diesel too. And by the time NA's wake up and realize the true potential of diesel, the engines will be choked with even more emission devices and complexity that cost will dig into your fuel cost savings.
btw, really liked the two pics u posted about corned gas.
Here in CA the kilowatt energy use (for the home anyway) is a bewildering mass of regulatory gobbity goob, rivaling the US IRS tax code, retirement and medical care codes combined. My eyes glazed over @ 32 TIERS.
In any case, if I added home fueling station/s for electrical, natural gas fueling, those fuel demands would push me into top tiers of already EXPENSIVE "alternative" energies. Those additions would subject me to yearly code inspections, compliance and risk of red tagging (home unfit for human habitation). I also would have increased and expensive yearly fees. Not paying the fees is actually grounds for red tagging and seizure. The taxation level at all levels would now rise to include the normal close to 2% of accessed values.
Permits are not even available. Municipalities close to here have been highlighted byt the "liberal"media as charging 20,000 to 30,000 for FEES in the process of adding just passive solar panels. This of course does not include the all important environmental studies to further charge you mitigation fees in the process of charging you fees for even wanting to go green......
You can't even get the information so you can do a side by side mpg equivalent. That usually means the cost per mile driven (fuel) is far higher than even RUG to PUG and certainly diesel. So I will have to pay more to get the system for the privileage of paying a LOT MORE yearly??? When you have the facts which are hard to obtain, it doesnt take more than grade school math to figure this out. (are you smarter than a 5th grader? comes to mind)
In the Arctic we ran straight #1 diesel year round. Actually that is all that was sold up there. Not sure of the sulfur etc. I do know our Ford 1 tons ran fine on it. Just kept setting off the check engine lights. The mechanic would reset the computer and a week later it came on again. Alaska still has a waver on ULSD if I remember correctly. Our vehicles say idling from 5 am to 5 pm all day every day during the winter. Which is from October to April.
I think if the truth were revealed more cancer causing elements are emitted by gasoline than by diesel exhaust.
Glad you liked the cartoons. They say things better than I do most of the time.
David Suzuki doesn't get all that much press down here, at least not on the forums.
The manufacturing/replacement issue gets talked about as does the electrical power generation issue for the pure plug-ins. The upside to that "fuel" is that the facilities (and mines) don't move around like gasoline and diesel fuel, so you have monitoring stations right at the factory to keep track of emissions and other stuff.
"so you have monitoring stations right at the factory to keep track of emissions and other stuff."
Yes, that's a good point, although not immune from collusion. I'm afraid I have seen too much in the past that almost nothing surprises me anymore. There is just so much political hand wringing and manipulation how can we, just the people, possibly know for sure the behind the scenes?
I think Honda had their Ensight out before the Prius by a few (one?) years. But I remember one of Suzuki's shows, he announced that he wanted to be the first to own one in Cda. I think one of his daughters put the most miles on it. I tried to write him and ask him to update us on the car and the overall ownership experience after all these years, but never heard from him. My mail might have ended up in a spam box...who knows.
When it comes to diesel passenger cars I don't think the "diesel passenger cars are bad" mantra is never going to stop. First of all, it is NOT scheduled to.
If heavily mitigated diesel passenger cars ( 1.272 M in the US) are the bain to life on the planet as we know it, then why on EARTH does the PORTS (LA LA, Long Beach, etc etc allow shipping traffic to use upwards of 30,000 PPM bunker oil ?????????????????????
Shut down all the PORTS untill they are mitigated like VW Jetta TDI's???????????
ABSURD and even ABSURDER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(yes I know absurder is not a real word, just doing the venacular hollywood gig here)
Needless to say the upwards of 30,000 ppm sulfur bunker oil users have absolutely ZERO,ZILCH, mitigation !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Again from that perspective, ABSURDEST !!!! When you compare it to the 5 to 7 ppm sulfur of USLD that is a minium of 6,000 TIMES !!!!!!! more?????? If you assign 1 ppm to the use of bio diesel that is a paltry 30,000 times greater and that is DAH minimum !
While I agree that diesel transport is a bigger problem, I'm not that close to an active port or terminal but there are lots of diesel passenger rigs running around my neighborhood. It's not an either/or proposition.
Any analogy that I can use will NOT get across the scale !!! That is a bit like worrying the glass on your sunroof will get wet while Hurricane Katrina hits landfall (New Orleans for example). NOT that your sunroof will not get wet.....
Well yeah, have you seen all the leaky sunroof posts around here?
Once again, my wife has mild asthma and the fumes bother her.
There's plenty of other reasons to prefer a gasser. Never a worry about finding a station, spilt fuel doesn't stink up your shoes or whatever else it gets on (haven't seen fueling gloves lately though), mechanics can be hard to find (even at the dealer), and the price differential makes up for some of the mileage advantage. RUG here is $3.25 and diesel is $3.44.
Once again, my wife has mild asthma and the fumes bother her.
Funny thing happened going to town this morning. We got behind a dump truck that absolutely stunk horrible. Every time he let off it spewed a big black cloud out the exhaust stack. Now this is unusual around here with the CA mandated cleaner diesel. We had to follow him about 3 miles down the hill as there are no places to pass. When I was able to see his license, it was a Baja plate from Mexico. So he was probably up working on one of the government stimulus projects with minority hire rules. And he was stinking up our clean air, because the Feds and the State of CA air quality people do not bother with vehicles coming in from Mexico. It has been so long I really had forgotten how stinky a diesel truck can be.
"idling from 5 am to 5 pm all day every day during the winter." are you a paramedic?
We were the telephone men. For years we did not have any place to plug our vehicles in by our shop. It would take a good half hour to warm up a truck even one that is plugged in. When someone called with a phone problem we were expected to be there in less than a half hour. The oil service companies were not tolerant of poor service. It could also create an emergency situation on the drill rigs. All our diesel trucks were equipped with idle controllers. When you left the truck idle it would kick up to 1600 RPM. That is better for a diesel engine than a low idle. It also keeps the temp up when it is -40 or more below zero.
Letting commercial diesels operate independent of any emissions controls is just being "business friendly", right?
As long as they play by the same rules required of US businesses. My main issue was the fact that CA has required clean diesel for so long I forgot what a smelly diesel truck was like. I don't think commercial trucks should be allowed into the US to do work without having the same emissions requirements. CARB regulations have decimated the trucking industry in CA. Many companies have left or filed for bankruptcy. They can run their trucking business from NV, OR or AZ and avoid the CARB eco nuts.
(using your example prices. PUG est @ 3.45 per gal.) I am perfectly fine with people paying more per mile driven. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm Actually so are most other people, if 98% of the vehicle fleet being RUG to PUG are any indicators. I read in passing in obscure places, that vehicles requiring PUG are app 9% of the vehicle fleet, aka 23.166 M vehicles. Defacto, most folks are just fine with also using more than using less, as long as they can give lip service to and don't REALLY have to so called "conserve".
Here is a like for LIKE example (manual trans) 03 Jetta:
I certainly have no problem holding them to the same rules of domestics. Levels the playing field, which in reality is the first component of "free trade".
We should just give California to Mexico, then we can have more diesel cars.
I see the E-class diesel is supposed to be back this year...haven't seen one yet.
Comments
To be truly epically silly there is also the 7.0 V12 TDi option. Must be aimed at the Texan oil millionaire market, methinks. From there on I think you're probably looking at Peterbilt et al.
I still have to wonder if German built VWs are less problematic than Mexican built cars...maybe better parts subcontractors or something. Every Passat sedan and wagon, gas or diesel, that I see in local used car rags has a "W" VIN. Every Jetta sedan diesel or gas has a "3" VIN, but Jetta wagons seem to have a "W" VIN as well. With Golfs it seems to be random, but there aren't many of those for sale...I do notice newer cars tend to be "W", and all Beetles appear to be Mexican built. The cars are so enormously popular in Germany, built locally, that I can't imagine they have the same issues seen here.
I believe all the wagons both Jetta and Passat were German built. They are still highly sought after with the TDI engine. One of the best resale of any vehicle going.
It took me over 6 months listing my MB Cruiser on Craigslist before I sold it. I bought it in December 05 from a dealer in Colorado Springs that did not want to get stuck till Spring. So I got it for about $8k less than the local dealer would sell for. I tried to get most of my money back. Finally let the guy have it for $55k cash. I had a bit over $59k in it with airline tickets to Denver. I think at the time you advised me against taking a 2001 MB S600 in trade. It was plush but not really my style. I still have the cash and that car is only worth about $15k now.
I think the diesels they get in Germany are tuned differently than ours too. I saw tons of Jetta sportwagons in Germany, and more than once I would be cruising at around 120 and would get passed by a Passat diesel wagon. I couldn't believe it.
Yeah, an early V12 W220 would have been a bad idea. It wouldn't be worth so much now, and probably would have sucked down another 5K in maintenance and repairs. The 2003+ models are better, but V12 cars of all types kind of scare me. That's another car we should get in diesel form, 30+ mpg from a luxo-tank has some appeal.
That engine is loved in Germany, always regarded to be the best choice in the lineup for both C and E class.
The 2010 E class does not list a diesel. So maybe the E250 CDI is on its way.
I drove an E200 CDi when I was there...a little too loud and slow to fit the MBUSA brand image, but mixed mileage in the mid 40s was nothing to complain about for a car off that size and comfort.
I'm with you on the diesel PU or SUV. The Tiquan with the 2.0L TDI sold in the EU would be a top choice also. Toyota might want to think about bringing there very successful small diesel PU to fill in the gaps the next few months till they get their act together on this latest recall.
Now THERE'S a vacation!!!! :shades:
Then I watched this
with no email heads-up or anything. :mad:
Anyway...from the manual tranny thread as requested..
"#6217 of 6218 Re: Diesel with 5/6 speed manual [rdub7] by steve_ HOST
Jan 17, 2011 (11:04 pm)
Replying to: rdub7 (Jan 17, 2011 10:49 pm)
It's pretty common knowledge that diesels emit way more particulates than gasoline engines. (Science Daily). And yeah, heavy trucks are a big part of the problem - maybe you've heard about the San Diego port project.
We really should move this over to the diesel discussion I linked a few posts back."
____________
I don't necessarily 'buy' everything 'scientists' are selling. A prudent, forward thinking person should try to remember that they do have to justify their paycheck just like anyone else..
I'm sure they know how to cure cancer too, but that would be the end of support funds the very day they'd make that announcement...so for now and likely forever, the cure will be forever conveniently elusive.
But I do know (and it is even somewhat just common sense and the ability to reason) that far more work can be done on a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gasoline. You take those same amt of particulates you mention, gathered from a gas engine choking itself on raw gas practically because you just can't get enough gas into the engine to get the work done, and weigh them against the particulates from the diesel engine. NOW we are comparing on more even grd. If gas was such an efficient source of energy, locomotives would use it to power their generators instead of diesel.
GAs creates a LOT more waste in heat out the tail pipe. Again, more emissions. All these reports of emission pollution are skewed and do not tell the real tale.
You take a brand new gas engined large truck (and keep in mind they have never made a gas engine large enough to have it compete with a diesel in hill climbing) on a wet humid day, and it chokes itself on raw gas as it tries to burn as much energy as it can to get what limited torque it has to the grd. There is so much raw fuel involved you could smell the raw unburned gas at stop. And due to humidity and high temp levels, sometimes you could hardly get the gas job to carburate properly.
The efficiency of diesel combustion is so efficient, it literally takes longer for the engine to come up to temperature. Unlike gas, which expels a lot of its energy as heat out the exhaust.
Imagine the smog in Cali if all the big trucks were put back on gas. I'm sure your wife would be suffering asthma attacks worse than she does now.
But I digress. I am but such a minority voice in a world filled with ignorance.
However, it would seem it would seem the host implies that the one half of one percent of the diesel passenger cars (1.272 M) do more of the polluting than the 98% gasser RUG to PUG passenger cars 252.252 M (of 257.4M) !!
1.272 M diesel passenger cars pollute no more than 1.272 M Toyota Camry's. They even use LESS fuel, than even a Toyota Camry hybrid. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/
I cannot see me buying anything but diesel on my next vehicle purchase. Diesel rarely goes higher than premium gasoline, and in a large SUV it will nearly double the highway mileage and give 50% improvement in town.
I also do not buy the PM argument. Those studies were all done years ago, long before ULSD was mandated. It would be nice if we could get higher cetane rated diesel in the USA.
What I said over in the MT discussion, and what I don't see broken out in your link was "diesels emit way more particulates than gasoline engines". I thought I had a link handy but can't find it now (may be one back in this discussion).
Gary, the switchgrass or woodchip fuels would fix the corn problem.
Not really. All new stills will have to be built and we will have to pay off the existing corn stills and pay to dismantle that whole fiasco. At this time there is no proven cost effective biomass ethanol system. From my perspective alternative fuels and energy for the most part is a bust and ripoff of the tax payers. Both here and in the EU. I think I read recently that $100 oil will make diesel from coal viable. We have plenty of coal and the technology is old and proven.
PS
Where will the wood chips come from? We have shut down most of our logging industry and use what we do get for paper in our paperless society.
I think you guys must be gunning for me. Just went out to shovel the latest 2" of snow and some guy was plowing the alley with a Deere loader/scraper. The fumes about knocked me down.
Luckily, I had plenty of the white stuff to move around out front while the plow guy was finishing up out back.
Needless to say that is 333.33% TIMES higher. Since most ULSD is delivered @ the pump nominally @ 5-7 ppm sulfur, (H) HO can be up to 1000 times more sulfur ppm. (H) HO furnances are NOT required to have pollution devices !!! They also (can) burn up to 24/7 and for literally months @ a time. Passenger car diesels even using ULSD are strictly required to have pollution devices. The 2 latest technologies are EGR andthe DPF. (diesel particulate device)
A lot of the emission devices on a clean diesel today, are to ensure particulates created from stop and go driving, get burned. Once on highway, or even a sustained 25 mph or so and up, those are handled through normal combustion.
And particulates aside for now (since to be fair the other side of the coin), there are other very harmful byproducts of gas combustion, that is low or non-existent in diesel exhaust. But the reporting never concentrates on that aspect of course, cuz they are too busy saying, the diesels are loud, or stinky, or messy. I just have to roll my eyes when I hear that. Yes, there are diesel powered vehicles including utility machinery that are running rich due to long ago worn out fuel injectors etc etc. But people used to let big gas engines slide in state of tune also. But regardless, you can never get away from the basic fact that more work can (and always will) be done on a gallon of diesel, than a gal of gas.
LA just got rid of their last diesel bus, and there's a big push to get the pollution under control on the diesel school buses. Some port is raising cane over idling cruise ships.
I dunno, by the time diesel manages to get over its reputation in the US, they won't be competitive with hybrid and plug-in cars.
Oh yeah, the loudness. I don't miss hearing my neighbor's pickemup truck and VW pickup in the mornings since I moved from Boise. He was 200' feet away but I could hear him coming and going another 300' down at the intersection on his way home from work.
However the more ethanol they add to the gas the lower the mileage on the hybrids. Plug-ins and EVs are probably dead out of the gate due to large increases in electricity. They will also be all be useless in cold climates. Batteries don't like being real cold. That is one reason for the lower mileage in the winter with Prius. While a diesel may take a bit to warm up on a cold morning I don't think it hurts the mileage much.
Of course the other issue is available diesel vehicles. VW/Audi is the only company offering high mileage cars at present.
The farther north you are, the greater the ratio of winter fuel is blended to avoid gelling in the really cold temps.
Yes, that has been my argument ever since David Suzuki bought the first Prius in Canada. The inefficiency of batteries as the temp drops. And to compound the issue, now you also have an engine that is filling the void of low battery current, that is not well designed, or sized, to do the majority of the duty of propelling the car.
And not to mention that we still have not dealt with the pollution of battery manufacturing or replacement disposal. Those two little tidbits are always conveniently never in the spotlight.
FWIW, I still hold out hope for a greater selection of diesels here in NA. The problem is though, we need better quality diesel too. And by the time NA's wake up and realize the true potential of diesel, the engines will be choked with even more emission devices and complexity that cost will dig into your fuel cost savings.
btw, really liked the two pics u posted about corned gas.
In any case, if I added home fueling station/s for electrical, natural gas fueling, those fuel demands would push me into top tiers of already EXPENSIVE "alternative" energies. Those additions would subject me to yearly code inspections, compliance and risk of red tagging (home unfit for human habitation). I also would have increased and expensive yearly fees. Not paying the fees is actually grounds for red tagging and seizure. The taxation level at all levels would now rise to include the normal close to 2% of accessed values.
Permits are not even available. Municipalities close to here have been highlighted byt the "liberal"media as charging 20,000 to 30,000 for FEES in the process of adding just passive solar panels. This of course does not include the all important environmental studies to further charge you mitigation fees in the process of charging you fees for even wanting to go green......
You can't even get the information so you can do a side by side mpg equivalent. That usually means the cost per mile driven (fuel) is far higher than even RUG to PUG and certainly diesel. So I will have to pay more to get the system for the privileage of paying a LOT MORE yearly???
When you have the facts which are hard to obtain, it doesnt take more than grade school math to figure this out. (are you smarter than a 5th grader? comes to mind)
I think if the truth were revealed more cancer causing elements are emitted by gasoline than by diesel exhaust.
Glad you liked the cartoons. They say things better than I do most of the time.
"idling from 5 am to 5 pm all day every day during the winter."
are you a paramedic?
Altho I guess ambulances idle year round regardless of temp.
The manufacturing/replacement issue gets talked about as does the electrical power generation issue for the pure plug-ins. The upside to that "fuel" is that the facilities (and mines) don't move around like gasoline and diesel fuel, so you have monitoring stations right at the factory to keep track of emissions and other stuff.
Yes, that's a good point, although not immune from collusion. I'm afraid I have seen too much in the past that almost nothing surprises me anymore. There is just so much political hand wringing and manipulation how can we, just the people, possibly know for sure the behind the scenes?
I think Honda had their Ensight out before the Prius by a few (one?) years. But I remember one of Suzuki's shows, he announced that he wanted to be the first to own one in Cda. I think one of his daughters put the most miles on it. I tried to write him and ask him to update us on the car and the overall ownership experience after all these years, but never heard from him. My mail might have ended up in a spam box...who knows.
If heavily mitigated diesel passenger cars ( 1.272 M in the US) are the bain to life on the planet as we know it, then why on EARTH does the PORTS (LA LA, Long Beach, etc etc allow shipping traffic to use upwards of 30,000 PPM bunker oil ?????????????????????
Shut down all the PORTS untill they are mitigated like VW Jetta TDI's???????????
ABSURD and even ABSURDER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(yes I know absurder is not a real word, just doing the venacular hollywood gig here)
Needless to say the upwards of 30,000 ppm sulfur bunker oil users have absolutely ZERO,ZILCH, mitigation !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Again from that perspective, ABSURDEST !!!! When you compare it to the 5 to 7 ppm sulfur of USLD that is a minium of 6,000 TIMES !!!!!!! more?????? If you assign 1 ppm to the use of bio diesel that is a paltry 30,000 times greater and that is DAH minimum !
Once again, my wife has mild asthma and the fumes bother her.
There's plenty of other reasons to prefer a gasser. Never a worry about finding a station, spilt fuel doesn't stink up your shoes or whatever else it gets on (haven't seen fueling gloves lately though), mechanics can be hard to find (even at the dealer), and the price differential makes up for some of the mileage advantage. RUG here is $3.25 and diesel is $3.44.
Funny thing happened going to town this morning. We got behind a dump truck that absolutely stunk horrible. Every time he let off it spewed a big black cloud out the exhaust stack. Now this is unusual around here with the CA mandated cleaner diesel. We had to follow him about 3 miles down the hill as there are no places to pass. When I was able to see his license, it was a Baja plate from Mexico. So he was probably up working on one of the government stimulus projects with minority hire rules. And he was stinking up our clean air, because the Feds and the State of CA air quality people do not bother with vehicles coming in from Mexico. It has been so long I really had forgotten how stinky a diesel truck can be.
are you a paramedic?
We were the telephone men. For years we did not have any place to plug our vehicles in by our shop. It would take a good half hour to warm up a truck even one that is plugged in. When someone called with a phone problem we were expected to be there in less than a half hour. The oil service companies were not tolerant of poor service. It could also create an emergency situation on the drill rigs. All our diesel trucks were equipped with idle controllers. When you left the truck idle it would kick up to 1600 RPM. That is better for a diesel engine than a low idle. It also keeps the temp up when it is -40 or more below zero.
As long as they play by the same rules required of US businesses. My main issue was the fact that CA has required clean diesel for so long I forgot what a smelly diesel truck was like. I don't think commercial trucks should be allowed into the US to do work without having the same emissions requirements. CARB regulations have decimated the trucking industry in CA. Many companies have left or filed for bankruptcy. They can run their trucking business from NV, OR or AZ and avoid the CARB eco nuts.
Here is a like for LIKE example (manual trans) 03 Jetta:
TDI- 46.4 mpg/3.44= .0741379 pmd /
2.0- 30.7 mpg/3.25= .1058631 pmd /
1.8 T -27.4 mpg/3.45= .1259124 pmd /
V6 -24.5/3.45= .1408163 pmd.
So RUG is 42.8% more pmd.
PUG is 69.8% more pmd
PUG on V6 is 89.9% more pmd.
Here is an 03 Toyota Camry 28 mpg/3.25=.1160714 pmd
So RUG is 52.14% more pmd (Camry is a pretty close competitor)
We should just give California to Mexico, then we can have more diesel cars.
I see the E-class diesel is supposed to be back this year...haven't seen one yet.