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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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My '99 Quest is running .18 a mile for gas last I ran the numbers (over a year ago).
The '97 Subaru supposedly is coming in at .10 a mile just for gas as of a year or so ago. That number seems low to me but I don't have time to audit my spreadsheet right now. I don't track actual gallon costs for each fill, so I just plugged in $2.40 for the gas, dating back to 2003 when I got it. Put in $2.80 and it pops to .12 a mile. (Gas back in '03 was running around $1.60 in the Rockies so a lot of those miles were with "cheap" gas).
9 cents a mile is really cheap. You're getting down into barge country. :-)
PS
I keep track of the gas price and total per tank. So it is pretty easy to figure cost per mile. 5700 of that 23K was on one trip with cheap gas most of the way and averaging close to 18 MPG.
With Hybrids I think the battery costs ultimately kill the whole idea...............at least for the poor folk who take 'em on later in the cars' lives.
Either I am looking in ALL the wrong places or not using the correct search words, but it seems to be short of a state secret that app 9% of the US passenger fleet are "required " to use PUG (premium unleaded gasoline) Given that the 08 figures were 257.4 M vehicles that puts the number @ app 23.166 M vehicles, vs the passenger diesel CAR fleet of 1.272 M cars or a shade less than one half of one percent. So the folks that use more PUG and more OF PUG are roughly 18.2 TIMES greater.
Absolutely, a TDI mini van makes all the sense in the world (over a gasser mini van).
I sure concur with that. Make mine Mazda5 sized. With a stick, great seats, (heated, including steering wheel) highend audio and no sunroof or auto lighting/dimming stuff.
Re these cents/mile you are calculating...what are the entered criteria? Are you including insurance, licensing, routine maintenance, annual emission testing etc?
But yes the IRS business deduction figure is pretty acurate. Too bad it is a mere deduction rather than a tax credit.
BUT on a smaller but just as serious scale,... truly this can be a game of percentages (of pennies). So for me another reason why I like the diesel. The cost per mile driven: oil lubrication (aka OCI) is (4.88 qt * 4.5 qt = $21.96+ $4.50 filter= $26.46/ 30,700 miles
$.0008618 cents per mile driven lubricated (DIY).
Oil changing has never been fun for me, but I have to admit that topside evacuation and replacement of new oil that takes all of 5 mins (including cartridge filter replacement) is a real hoot !! I actually spend more time (15 to 20 more minutes) cleaning up the recycling stuff, and reattacting a dress only cover (plastic) plate.
So just checked the CRV stick. Made 2, 10 mile return trips (ambient was a mild for Feb, 30) and one 30 mile return trip (ambient was 10), on 35 to 50 mph roads and a small amount of in town use. Speeds were about 35 on the 2 short trips which equaled 4 cold starts. Speeds were 35 to 50 to 60 but mostly 50, 55 on the 30 mile trip. That one had only 1 cold start. Did 26.42 mpg on our big gallon. Pump price was $1.079/ litre, so $4.91/Imp gal. (or $4.08 for your gal)
All 3 trips and intown was 90% gentle.
So .186 cents per mile.
Had it been in my friends new Golf wgn TDI, i am guessing diesel was about 1.119 to 1.139/litre. (I forgot to look but it is usually a dime/litre hit like premium is) So using the larger price, and a very fair and realistic 48 mpg on winter fuel, would have been .111 cents/ mile.
And about 5 years ago, when diesel was about 80 cents/litre and his older Jetta 1.6 turbo (the newer bigger TDI's do use more fuel than the pre TDI days) delivering a 64 to 66 mpg most times but for the sake of a fair comparo here with colder temps and winter fuel, let's say 54 mpg, cost would have been .0673 cents/ mile
haha now that is true contempt if ever I read it, lol
not to rub salt in old wounds tho..
He's now been informed that VW refuses to cover it under warranty. The reason being that the fuel he was using does not have enough essential lubricants. Meaning the ULSD required by US law is bad for VW's diesel engine and they won't warranty it ... yet they sell it here.
Wow!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The "hybreds" I have looked at are made of thin metal, cheap-feeling materials and do not drive like a German car. Oh- and dont forget to "run the numbers" on replacing the battery-pack.
While I concur about the driving experience of most hybrids (especially the Prius and the Insight) I find the Fusion Hybrid feels very much like a real car. I found the CVT to be much more instep with my driving habits than the Prius. My mom has the Fusion and my MIL has the Prius.
As far as the battery argument, the fears about the battery pack seem unfounded at this point. There are enough 8-10 year old 100k+ Priusususs puttering around town that I don't see the battery issue as real. Unlike my laptop battery, its not designed to be discharged all that much and the charge cycles aren't as invasive.
All that said, I would rather have a diesel.
PS
Where can I register to win a VW TDI. The one I had was great. If it had been an SUV I would not have sold it.
But how would you know if the batteries had been replaced? No way to tell from just observing at a street level.
I would be a lot more impressed if you see those same cars, with the original batteries (and associated running bits), in 20 years with 200+k because that more closely represents a true life cycle.
"Unlike my laptop battery, its not designed to be discharged all that much and the charge cycles aren't as invasive. "
Are you sure? That's the first I have heard that. Any hybrid driven on a highway trip I think depletes that crucial voltage range in a way not much different than any other voltage-aware device would. The batteries don't get depleted to 0 volts. I doubt they would have the engine supplying a charge to the battery any sooner than necessary as the load draw on the engine (which is actually best suited for city use more so than highway) already infringes on the highway FE. And those used in cold climates probably cycle a lot more often.
Sorry, I guess I am just so not a hybrid fan. If hybrids worked as long as IC and on as few dollars over the life of the vehicle, then in their own way it would seem too good to be true. And we all know what happens when we make that assumption.
Most refiners use a hydro-treating process to de-sulfurize diesel fuels. For the most part, refiners will extend this process to meet the 15 ppmw specification. Diesel fuels that are more difficult to de-sulfurize could be subjected to intense hydro-treating. This process can reduce trace components containing nitrogen and oxygen that provide a natural lubricity. (Ref.1) This reduced lubricity could result in excessive engine wear without the addition of a high lubricity additive, like biodiesel. To avoid any problems, ULSD users should make sure that the fuel lubricity meets equipment manufacturers specifications.
http://www.energy.wsu.edu/ftp-ep/pubs/renewables/Fuels.pdf
So if you can find a dealer that sells B5 ULSD you should be fine. If not better use additives. I used Powerserve in both my Mercedes Sprinter and Passat TDI. I did not keep either long enough to assess the results.
This issue is by no means confined to diesels. BMW has had HPFP issues with some MY's in their GASSER lines.
..."In at least the US market, the N54 engine has been characterized by a very large number of High Pressure Fuel Pump (HPFP) failures, leading to many BMW NA vehicle Lemon Law "buy backs" and reduced customer goodwill. On some engines the HPFP was replaced four times within the first few years of service.[citation needed] BMW has instituted a 10-year, 120,000-mile (190,000 km) warranty on the part, but only for 2007, 2008 and 2009 model year vehicles with the N54 engine. Other model years, to include 2009 models, continue to report HPFP failures.[10] As of late 2009, the low pressure fuel sensor has become suspected of causing some premature failures of the HPFP by engine tuners such as AMS and CP-E."...
link title
VW over the years have not recommended the use of additives and/or have been silent; even as VW dealers have sold Standyne OTC for many years.
I also want to mention to my neighbours who use various diesel machinery and tractors and ask them if they are aware they should be using extra lube.
edit- great minds...thanks, I just asked you that very question. So that one additive is thee one?
I agree about others having HPFP problems not related to diesel. But those, as far as I know, are covered under warranty. It is not the failure itself I find disturbing, it is the manufacturer's response.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'll let my friends know. Not sure what you mean by low saps tho..
Diesel Kleen (400 to one)
Total's take
"Based on data from over 36,000 Toyota Prius hybrids in our annual survey, we find that the Prius has outstanding reliability and low ownership costs. But we wanted to know if the effectiveness of the battery degraded over the long run. So we hooked up a 2002 Toyota Prius with nearly 208,000 miles on the clock to our testing instruments and compared the results to the nearly identical 2001 Prius we tested 10 years ago.
Conclusion: We found very little difference in performance when we tested fuel economy and acceleration."
You can use this link to see the post and the results:
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/02/200000-mile-toyota-prius-still-per- forms.html
This gave me pause for thought. I have an '03 PAssat 1.8T. Never once in the purchasing experience was the fact that premium fuel was recommended or that synthetic oil was mandatory.
Now, I had done a ton of research before I bought the car, so I was well-aware about the fuel issue. But the synth oil thing was a bit trickier. Earlier model years apparently didn't spec synth (when the cars were first sold - they changed that later with an addendum to the owner's manual). Even the owner's manual was very written in a obtuse manner - there was no "put it right out there: it needs synthetic oil." Instead it was caged in a manner that required you to google specific VW specifications. Geez, even after VWoA issued that revision to the manual, their own dealers were (as documented here on Edmund's) pouring synth blend or conventional motor oil into 1.8Ts for several years.
In a land where most owner's manuals lay in the glove box still in the original shrink wrap, that's not a good approach to the issue. 'Course, telling people that you will need a hard-to-find version (none of the "Stuff-mart" stores around here sell 5w-40) of synthetic oil doesn't sell cars, I suppose. And while using regular fuel (versus premium) might not kill an engine, using less than the specified synthetic oil sure heightens that possiblity.
But how would you know if the batteries had been replaced? No way to tell from just observing at a street level.
I would be a lot more impressed if you see those same cars, with the original batteries (and associated running bits), in 20 years with 200+k because that more closely represents a true life cycle.
My sample belongs to friends and friends of friends. Many of them were handed down from parent to kid as newer, more interesting things came out on the market. None of them has ever had any major work done.
Are you sure? That's the first I have heard that. Any hybrid driven on a highway trip I think depletes that crucial voltage range in a way not much different than any other voltage-aware device would. The batteries don't get depleted to 0 volts. I doubt they would have the engine supplying a charge to the battery any sooner than necessary as the load draw on the engine (which is actually best suited for city use more so than highway) already infringes on the highway FE.
Yes, I am sure. There are kits you can get for the Prius that convert them to Plug in hybrids and also kits you can get that allow them to run more in BEV mode to further reduce fuel consumption. Hybrids are tuned to protect the battery, not maximize mileage or efficiency. These aftermarket kits (which will void warranties) will adjust that trade off for someone so inclined. If they were willing to sacrifice battery longevity they could get more efficiency out of the system.
Sorry, I guess I am just so not a hybrid fan.
Me neither. I don't own one, and I don't plan to, but fair is fair.
Really? Did your father's coworker get that response in writing? From what I've heard and read, VW has been denying warranty coverage on grounds of "bad fuel", "contaminated fuel", or "gasoline in fuel". This is the first I've heard of their citing insufficient lubricity as reason. I don't see how they could get away with that, esp. in the context of the ongoing NHTSA investigation. For that to hold up, I should think they would need an amended warning plastered on the car: "ULSD fuel only, and ONLY ULSD with a minimum 460 scar wear rating"!
That seems to rival and best pretty much all the claims made here by owners in the last 50 posts or so. Yes, my car is a small (non-hybrid) Japanese car, so for the German car fans out there mine is a "fake" car, but fake or not, it has taken me everywhere I needed to go, and often friends and family along with me, for years and years. And that without needing new fuel pumps, new engines, special additives to the gas, or $100 oil changes. Or any repairs at all, in matter of fact.
Automakers CAN do that without adding a diesel or hybrid powertrain at great additional cost, they just choose not to because not enough Americans demand it.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Indeed if you are more into commuting and don't need the room nor the "power" a 3 cylinder 70 mpg diesel is probably a landscape changer. That will make a Prius look like a GAS guzzler !!??
But it would not have taken you to my door, 5 out of the 12 months in a year. Probably within 700' of my door, but that is a still a long way on foot to make numerous trips in the pouring rain with groceries etc etc. On Friday I made about 12 trips to the car while unloading it after a big shop in town. A lot of the items were heavy, and I also bought gas in cans for around the home use, cuz am anticipating gas is going to keep going up in the next months.
I find that anyone who lives in temperate climates have a hard time appreciating the need/expense for more comprehensive drive-trains, so can't readily relate.
And to be fair, there was a fairly broad range of examples that were given here, so it is not fair to compare your 2300 lb 2WD car with other AWD capable ones that weigh practically twice what yours weigh. And for those vehicles, diesel makes the most sense by a huge margin. All you have to do is relate to what form of fuel is the most efficient to use when work must be done. And the answer always ends up being diesel. But, as a bonus, it also just happens to have very desirable traits that contribute to the driving experience. If you have ever driven any turbo'd engine, you will know what I'm talking about. It provides an almost visceral feeling that few, if any, gas jobs can match.
I always owned Acuras but Acura shot itself in the foot by doing away with them and the RSX. I loved my Type S (leather was cheap though.)Ever had a GSR what wheels?
I can't believe I bought a VW and I like it because of all the bells and whistles that Mazda would have you buy a 24K GT.Grab bars,lumbar, multilevel heated seats, bluetooth moonroof and find me a Ford, Mazda,or Civic that offers those.Hyundai and Focus 2012 comes close.
That Primrose stuff runs about $12 a quart.
My gasser burns ethanol laced regular and gets a nice fresh batch of oil once a year - usually Supertech unless something cheaper is on sale at Wally World that day.
That I couldn't tell you. Just passing along 3rd-party info. I suggested he tell this guy to sue. Should be an easy case, I would think.
I've also read where they are accusing folks of putting in gas and screwing it up that way. In this case, this guy happens to be a truck driver for my dad (who is the shop supervisor), so I think the odds of him mistakenly putting in gas are pretty slim. He even pointed out to the dealer he is a truck driver and goes to the same stations as with his trucks, which have never had a mechanical failure like this.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The numbers on the 04 Civic see .0011275 cents per mile driven: lubricated (DIY 3.5 qts 4.80 per qt+ 5. FRAM filter+ .75 washer= $22.55/20,000 miles) or 30.83% more per mile driven.
And really Golf TDI or gasser seems to be a bright spot in the line up. This is especially true as they have gotten rid of or solved the issues on the former gassers, 2.0 L and 1.8T engines, oil drinkers and sludge monsters. I would have gotten neither, nor a VW for that matter: if they did not have the 03 TDI 1.9 T engine. Indeed the extra premium really makes the TDI start to make sense app 20,000 miles per year.
I generally have to add 1/2 to 1 qt during the 04 Civic OCI vs .25 to .5 qt for the TDI. Normally I just change the TDI's oil and forgo adding.
Amen.
As I've said a number of times, if any one of several small-displacement diesels (with a manual transmission) available all over the rest of the world were made available here in the land of EPA & CARB (fat chance), I'd buy it tomorrow.
Since VW is the only show in town, it's interesting to read here about potential issues with the fuel pumps. This is one of the most useful boards (to me) on Edmunds.
Thanks to all who participate.