I really wanted to like the Jeep diesel. It seems they took a decent Italian diesel engine and loaded it with emissions crap which killed any dependability it may have had. I know it was the emissions junk on our Fords in the Arctic that caused all the grief. They did not like the year round diet of number one diesel. That is all that was used up there. Not sure of the sulfur content. I would imagine it was far more than the sensors could withstand.
Yes, I think your take is really hard to quantify. But for my .02 cents, true enough. As I have said in other posts, even after 155,000 miles, I am still (subliminally) amazed. In a 2,950 # car (03 Jetta TDI) in a point A to point B commute; it gets between 48-52 mpg. In a 2,450# car or app 500# LESS (04 Civic gasser) it gets 38-42 mpg in the SAME Point A to Point B commute. It does beg two vice versa questions. 1. How would a TDI with app 500#'s less weight do (proper gearing of course) ?. 2. How would a 500# heavier car do with the same gasser Honda engine? I really think the TDI sans app 500#'s would have a better power to weight ration. It would get better fuel mileage and be an even bigger hoot to drive.
When we hit the road trips, the choice of car is really a no brainer.
And to be fair, there was a fairly broad range of examples that were given here, so it is not fair to compare your 2300 lb 2WD car with other AWD capable ones that weigh practically twice what yours weigh. And for those vehicles, diesel makes the most sense by a huge margin
Well sure, I don't contest that at all. But you realize most of the posters reporting their fuel economy with their diesels were driving Jetta and Golf TDIs, with a smattering of Passats thrown in for good measure.
None were AWD, none exceeded 3500 pounds curb weight. None would get to your door any more or less than mine would. And most are probably used for the same thing I use mine for: commuting, around-town errands, and the occasional long trip on the highway. So I thought it was a fair comparison.
Now having said that, I also have a Subaru Outback Sport I bought specifically for the AWD it has, and that car has mediocre-to-poor fuel economy despite having only 170 hp. I very much like Subaru AWDs - it is not my first and I hope it will not be my last - but this is a car that very much needs a small diesel in it. With VW's 2.0 TDI under the hood it could probably do 50 mpg in my driving, saving me almost half my annual fuel bill with this car. So my next Subaru will have a diesel (with possible consideration given to a hybrid powertrain which is supposedly coming), or there won't BE a next Subaru for me.
But I'm quite sure I will continue to remain gun-shy of VWs for their seemingly endless reliability problems over the years, even if they start to sell an AWD diesel Tiguan, something I am surprised they don't already do.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
this is a car that very much needs a small diesel in it.
Someone just asked when Subaru was bringing their Euro diesel to the US over in Edmunds Answers.
I don't follow the Subaru Crew - Future Models II discussion, but I figured Subaru would focus on hybrids for the US market instead of diesels, especially since they have access to Toyota tech now.
Wasn't the Volvo mentioned, AWD and over 3500 lb? ANd it is still early in the poll. Hopefully others will way in. FWIW I know a heavy footed RE Agent who is always in a hurry, and gets well over 30 with his Jeep GC with the MB 3 litre V6 diesel and 5 speed auto . And that (very loaded) SUV must weigh at least 4300 but i suspect more than that.
Apparently VW has a very impressive TC system with their FWD cars. I have not seen it work yet, but if my friend visits my AWD hill with his Golf TDI before winter is over, I'll let you know how it does. Although there are some conditions that even if you locked 2 front wheels together, they still will only perform, at best, 35% as well as AWD. As you well know with your Sube, AWD makes more than twice the difference of 2WD on a slippery hill.
As for other diesels coming to NA, I hope it happens too, but they will have to take into account that our ULSD is more difficult to deal with than Europes ULSD, as I think CA standards are about as restrictive as you can get the world.
Let's also hope that the HPFP are not made by Bosch or any other company that will try to shirk wty responsibility if the need arises.
The thing is that Robert Bosch could have done a separately lubricated pump and TOTALLY bypassed the issue, all together !!
Basically the (probably cost conscious) HPFP design is lubricated by the fuel and exposure to H20 tends to deteriorate the coating providing lubrication to a part that will now encourage friction. It is that friction generated when the lubrication coating deteriorates that causes the metals to "FLAKE" aka shrapnel.
Great point. And with bonus being that even if it did self-destruct, at least it would be contained within the pump also, rather than being allowed to take out the rest of the components.
I had a chat with my friend last night to make sure he knew to be using the additives and learned that he had been since 1995 even on his MY86. He said that the additives though would still not protect the seals in the pump and that was one of the main reasons he finally retired the 86. The pump was leaking. He says the new fuel attacks the seals. He said the 2.0 was designed from the ground up to run on ULSD. I then said, that the HPFP made by Bosch is the weak link then.
He also told me something that is far from his normal habit. Even though the urge this new Golf has, has caused more than a few very satisfying giggles just out of the blue through his day driving it, he confessed that the car is too complex for his liking and he intends to sell it while under warranty. !
My friend is a very intelligent mechanic and is not easily intimidated. He delves deeper into mechanical and electrical work with greater confidence than myself. So the fact that this car has so many (complex) components that he knows is out of a reasonable$ realm of attacking when the time comes, that he doesn't intend for it to be a long termer. Now keep in mind, this comment is coming from a man who kept his last VW for 25 years. So ultimately, that tells me this new TDI falls far short in terms of potential longevity compared to his 86. I trust him and his judgement enough that that has put a period behind my intention of pursuing an 09 or newer TDI. I would not be able to afford to sell/deal it every 3.5 years for another one. But if I drove 40000+ miles per year, then doing that could be more easily justified.
I wish I knew whether it was worth it to pursue bringing his 86 back to life. It sure requires a lot of work and $ tho, front to back. Would make an excellent summer car for me. The problem tho still, is you woukld have to burn FF or else risk damaging the new seals in the pump unless the seal content has been upgraded to resist this new ULSD. That may or may not be the case. What if you a batch of the old ones tho?
I wish I could find a (simple) little diesel and a decent seat, and slip them both into my CRV. Cost me less in the long run too. And I'd darn well fuel it with FF until my last years on earth.
For sure the trend is for ever increasing costs and ever increasing complexity. (aka every increasing break downs) Now this is for gassers, gasser hybrids, turbo diesels, electrical and other alternative fuel vehicles. They really haven't explained why that is good for conservation when you have to use more for LESS durability, upkeep and reliability.
On the one hand, you see almost wild scale panic when new car sales drop from 14 M to 16 M to 10.4 M. On the other hand, the envirocons blame cars for armaggedon to alien vehicle sightings. It probably will be tagged for causing vitamin B deficiencies.
He also told me something that is far from his normal habit. Even though the urge this new Golf has, has caused more than a few very satisfying giggles just out of the blue through his day driving it, he confessed that the car is too complex for his liking and he intends to sell it while under warranty. !
Well if I needed another reason not to plunk down my money on a new TDI, there it is......
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This might be totally off topic but I just ran a 17 year old SUV (gasser) through the CA SMOG ONLY test station. The real charter (they are loathed to tell you this but you can read the CA state emissions laws to find this out) for these ONLY stations is to ID, select and process for EXECUTION un popular vehicles.
Long story short: the "bad" emissions were not even MEASURABLE !! This is @ 185,000 miles, OCI's of 20,000 miles, over due a tune up, etc. CLEAN as the proverbial whistle. I can't even lie about the results, as they are reported by computer to higher (emissions) HQ.
I suspect that when my TDI's are 17 years old and have over 200,000 miles each, the same will be true. Complete and utter waste of time and money.
But FWIW, it has a wonder shifter and clutch take up
Just the other day i read the 2.0 gas job burned oil? Is that right? Surely they have fixed that by the time they make it into the new Jetta. I wonder when they addressed that? I should be asking ruking as i don't think u are much of a VW fan tho..
As for the complexity Dan was talking about, it wasn't just the engine and running gear management. It was the entire car. He commented on how the wipers will stop in low rain when you come up to a stoplight, and just endless stuff like that. He also cursed the ABS. But keep in mind heavy truck drivers spend their whole time feeling for the all elusive threshold of traction, so if you are not used to ABS, you have to stand hard on them once you realize they are activating and room is running out for another application. I suspect he had a close call or two with all the snow and ice we have had and learned the (almost) hard way with an impromptu ABS 101 course..
I am holding back a major rant with this topic. If I could post a pic here, i would choose one of those ones taken in China where the air is so thick and dirty you could almost cut it with a knife. Doesn't NA know the earth shares all the air? Can NA afford to be the good guys? Especially when we hear of cases exactly as u described above? :sick:
Last time I had to smog test my wife's 21 year old LS400, it was well below the limits in CA. We keep driving it and saving money every time we do. It makes me want to get rid of all the new stuff and just drive the old. Less license and less insurance. I may try to import a diesel Land Cruiser from Canada that is 20 years old. They show up on the Internet from time to time.
At almost every level, older cars ( like your 21 year old one and my 17 year old one) make all the sense. It is probably one of the reasons why they set up specialty shops to try to get rid of them.
Sometimes I think the enviro cons would want you to believe that almost all the bad emissions are caused by the less than one half of 1 percent (1.272 M )passenger diesel cars, to hear the almost complete and utter vilification of modern day TDI's. This is of course of 2008 257.4 M mostly gasser vehicles !!!???? They seem to want (their) complete and utter fairy tales to pass as reality.
I had a 2004 Jetta GL TDI Auto, and it was a nice vehicle; I had to sell it for financial reasons otherwise I would still be driving it today.
Where I lived (Central Illinois/Sourthern Indiana), diesel is expensive, especially in winter - averages 15% more than gas, can go way higher, rarely its the same as gas. I drove mostly in town, and I consistently got 32mpg, 40mpg if I went on they highway. I put cetane in everytime I filled the tank, which was annoying, and I got diesel on myself more than once - yuck.
Ultimately, here in the middle of the country there isn't any economy in diesels compared with sophisticated gas engines/hybrids. It costs more to buy, expensive fuel, pollutes more, its a dirty fuel, for very noticible improvements in performance, reliability and longevity. If the government raised gas taxes by $.50 but did not raise diesel taxes, we'd all be driving diesels in a short order. No one seems to care about reliability and longevity, and no one seems to know the performance difference either.
If Subaru would sell their diesel cars in the US, I'd buy one today.
Too many people look at the cost per gallon of fuel when making decisions. They should instead look at cost per mile which is typically expressed as cost per 1000 miles. Even though diesel costs more per gallon than gas, it costs a lot less per mile due to the higher efficiency. Add the benefit of higher torque and thus ability to pull a trailer, and getting a diesel car is a no-brainer. Just try to pull a boat trailer and boat using a Prius. It isn't going to happen.
CA has some of the highest fuel prices (maybe HI is higher) in the US. The per mile driven numbers (like for like) still favor diesel.
As far as being a "dirty fuel" RUG to PUG is factorially DIRTIER !!! RUG to PUG can be delivered @ the pump 30 ppm sulfur (standard) to 90 ppm sulfur with off line FEE mitigation. ULSD on the other hand must be delivered at the pumps NTE 15 ppm with HUGE fines over that. So most is delivered @ 5 to 7 ppm sulfur. Defacto, this puts RUG to PUG 2 times to 18 times dirtier !!!!!!!!!!!!! This doesn't even address the fact that 1. 98% of the passenger vehicle uses the dirtier fuel and 2. more of it. So the order of magnitude is almost too hard to graphically illustrate.
Indeed that IS the issue. If it isn't, then stop with it already. Perhaps you misunderstand or do not understand ppm sulfurs role in emissions ? But if you do, DENIAL of the obvious not only makes you wrong, but puts what you say (based on that mistaken notion) at the BEST, suspect. So really it is no challenge @ all.
The reason there is no such thing in the USA called "Ultra Low Sulfur Gasoline" is because the average is already so low for Tier II requirements as of 2007:
Tier II regulations also defined restrictions for the amount of sulfur allowed in gasoline and diesel fuel, since sulfur can interfere with the operation of advanced exhaust treatment systems such as selective catalytic converters and particulate filters. Sulfur content in gasoline was limited to an average of 120 parts-per-million (maximum 300 ppm) in 2004, and this was reduced to an average 30 ppm (maximum 80 ppm) for 2006. Ultra-low sulfur diesel began to be restricted to a maximum 15 ppm in 2006 and refiners are to be 100% compliant with that level by 2010.
I'd submit it is semantics as to what they call RUG to PUG? Suffice to say, your own quote verify's what I have said. Most enviro cons don't even know the actuall figures they spout off as being cleaner than ULSD diesel. So at least you acknowledge that portion (albeit FORCED) . Indeed it does beg the question why the enviro cons are just fine with 2 times to 18 times dirtier fuel that the MAJORITY USES??? Or did we not take GROSS Hypocrisy one oh one?
Your governments' never rest. You do know they are talking of (like DPF's) R/P PF's (RUG/PUG PARTICULATE filters) for gassers such as hybrids and non hybrids? This should add app $1,500 to $2,000 per unit !!?? About time in that the RUG to PUG has been doing the majority of the passenger car fleet "sooting" aka that is 1.272 M diesel passenger vehicles to 256.128 M gasser vehicles. (2008 population of 257.4 M)
They will also begin smog and smog only tests for hybrids - which were previously EXEMPT. Soot levels (emitted) are far higher than diesels. Or was that thank heavens they don't teach real math, K-12 ???
no such thing in the USA called "Ultra Low Sulfur Gasoline"
I think your post shows that RUG does indeed have more sulfur than diesel. That being the reason an exhaust system for an AT-PZEV car like the Prius is so expensive. In the case of the Prius parts alone are about $1500. Just so the car will clean up our gas to that higher level. If you think the AT-PZEV is so safe park one in a garage running and a VW TDI in another. See who dies first. CO is much higher on a gas burner and much more deadly than a diesel burner. Just because the agencies cherry pick the emissions to satisfy the politicians does not mean much in reality. That is why the Natural Gas burning Civic is cleaner than a Prius or Volt.
Gary says, "That being the reason an exhaust system for an AT-PZEV car like the Prius is so expensive."
You forgot to mention the high cost of doing the same thing for diesel vehicles.
The same reason diesel sedans have expensive exhaust scrubbing equipment on them.
Why do you think VW was out of the Jetta TDI market in the USA for almost a couple of years? Perfecting the diesel exhaust scrubbing system and trying to make it affordable.
The same reason all those trucks and school buses are being retro-fitted for burning the ULSD effectively. ( Which involve tax credit programs in some states. )
To try to lessen the deadly impact of the diesel exhaust.
How much you think the "Blue" urea system costs? A lot.
Really the cost for DPF's was assumed, inherent and obvious in the discussion. Not that you would care, but the DPF aftermarket (but oe) is app $3,000 for the complete system. Not that you would need to replace the complete system (VW 09 TDI.) There are some commercial links, but I do not want to run afoul of the Edmunds.com codes. However, adjusted for (year to year) inflation 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09) the price of the 09 TDI was literally the same for the 03 TDI without the DPF. (18k vs 21k= +3,000/8= 2.08% per year) You can check any car (gassers) and see that most to all years cost a min of inflation more year over year.
Since you brought it up, there was a pretty radical tweak on THAT 09 MY, which continue to the current 2011 MY . The hp/torque was radically bumped up 55/52.3% !!!! 140 hp/236 ft #'s. This is not even to mention the car is quantitatively and qualitatively a much better vehicle. Sure you can get up to 59 mpg, but you really have to drift into hyper miling techniques. I can keep it under 92 mph and get 42/44 mpg.
So for example, school buses and such are NOT part of the passenger vehicle fleet. YET because they are specialized AND can be "forced to modify" you see no requirement for them to switch over to gasser !!??
Volvo has a V60 one in the pipeline. question of course will always be, US or not?
speaking of the exhaust scrubbing, for a while I was a regular renter of large Freightliner and IH diesels from Ryder (to haul around a school marching bands gear). This ended about 2 years ago, but the last one i rented was a brand new FL.
basically the same model as before, but now with a scrubber system. Lot's of stickers, and required instructions from the rental guy.
IIRC, it would somehow clean itself on the highway, but if you were driving local, every so often you had to do something to clear the system out. And if you waited too long, it would literally shut itself off, even if it was running, and you had to go through all kinds of stuff to get it started (honestly not sure if they had to send a service vehicle out).
now this was on trucks they gave to anyone with a license, most of whom had zero clue what they were doing. COuld easilty see that not ending well!
I just happen to remember a few Prius owners getting stuck with very large bills when the Non CARB gas was destroying their Prius catalytic converters and Toyota would not replace them under warranty. It has nothing to do with those wanting to buy a diesel. Just a reminder that gas cars can also have issues relating to our poor fuel in the USA.
And we have are and will continue to consider the "costs".
Let's see, IF what you are saying is true THEN Toyota has eaten the hybrid costs since it hit the US market (2003 that I am acquainted) . Rumor has it 8 years since (2003) the Prius line is still NOT profitable. VW has "eaten" the cost of the 09 DPF and that year made BILLIONS, while Toyota LOST factorially more billions !!?? They also sold 25% diesels!? Prius costs more than the Jetta TDI and it is really not nor has been a competitor with the TDI, sans fuel mileage. Indeed my 03 TDI got better fuel mileage than either the 03 MY /04 MY Prius'. 04 Prius was a radically new car !! Indeed Camry Hybrid is a like for like competitor for the Jetta TDI and again costs more and gets LESS mpg, etc.?????
As Larsb has quoted and noted, once upon a time (before 2007) RUG to PUG was greater than 30 ppm to 80 ppm sulfur !!!! For some reason they/it fails to state what that was.
Evidently you dwell on old news with diesels!!?? For example even as I had to endure LSD, the 03 TDI was designed to run on ULSD !!! Also you might remember that YOU brought up the (old) news !!??
But then on the other hand, a certain amount of old news is part and parcel of diesels and gassers. Gagrice brings up his 21 year old car and I a 17 year old SUV (GASSERS). The SMOG ONLY measuring devices can NOT even measure the bad emissions, even after 17 to 21 years and in my case, 187,000 miles ......
Since we are talking diesels, I suspect that 10 years from now, I will be saying the same thing (as para 2) only with 300,000 to 400,000 miles on the diesel.
Well, if the cc is not covered, it's not covered. No reason to whine about it. It's not Toyota's fault that the EPA has not cracked down and made our gas cleaner.
You want to complain about the EPA forcing mandates for cleaner fuel, then whine about the result of them NOT doing that. Can't eat AND have cake.
(Mountain out of Molehill)
Out of more than 2 million Prii sold worldwide in the first 10 years, I'd say the "damage" to the cc is pretty minor, over the wider sample of cars on the road WITHOUT that problem.
Well no, the effect is have to have the correct equipment for the mandated stuff and the interim equipment suffers for the lack. Luckily the 03 TDI could run LSD, even as it was made to run on ULSD. A shame that Prius owners suffered because they all KNEW they were running "superior" RUG to PUG. :sick:
Certainly when ethanol and MTBE were being run, there was and continues to be unreported equipment damage due to the governmental mandates of ethanol concentrations science experiments. They are busy running experiments with higher than 10% ethanol: 15%-20% and the unreported damage is probably factorially more. I have read in passing there is hope to run up to 20% ethanol, which to me would be disasterous!!
He gets demerits for how long it took. The Prius came out in 1997, that makes it going on 15 years to sell 2 million. Who cares it still will not compare with a VW TDI on any level except city driving MPG. If you can stand the rough ride and noise go get a Prii.
PS Edmund's spell checker does not recognize Prii.
Did I miss a link saying that Prii sales were unprofitable? And don't say George Will. :shades: This debate seems to come up now and then but Toyota has been saying the Prius has been profitable since 2001 (LA Times).
Hard to believe any automaker would sell 500,000 cars at a loss, even if they were trying to green up their image. The profit number supposedly is $3,100 a car as of April 2009. (Daily Tech)
(Ignore the red spelling error to keep the current spelling of the word and that'll add the word to your personal word list).
Toyota Says It's Now Turning a Profit on the Hybrid Prius
You don't really believe they would say they were dumping cars to gain market share and look green do you? I don't think there is any proof they are making a profit on any given vehicle. They don't give out that kind of proprietary information. We do know they were selling like gangbusters in Japan until the government pulled the subsidy. Sales went to nothing. Just like the Volt and Leaf way over priced due to expensive components.
In a very real sense, it really does not matter much, if it is offset by much greater unit's and per unit profits on for example Toyota's truck line. While I dont know the precise figures, Ford trucks during its hey days were making on the order of 10,000 to 15,000 per unit. Another issue is that when it is amortized over other products like Camry Hybrid, Lexus Hybrid, all you really know is that they cost more. So for example a Camry Hybrid is thousands more than a Jetta TDI.
But I do know this Civic Hybrids are no longer being sold in Japan
Now Honda hybrids are the second largest selling hybrid in the world. @ 255,000 units world wide. Far less than the 2 M Prius'
I am totally unfamilar with Japanese tax law to even swag how they would write this down. Now if I were to buy a hybrid Honda would be one of my top choices.
Building 500,000 cars is a lot of expense to look green when they could just buy some ads. :P
Ruking, I remember reading years ago that GM had amortized the tooling for Suburbans so much that the profit on each one was something like $17,000. Probably a bit of an exaggeration.
I remember reading years ago that GM had amortized the tooling for Suburbans so much that the profit on each one was something like $17,000. Probably a bit of an exaggeration.
My favorite Suburban was the model built from 1989 to about 2000. They sold well during that decade. Most were built in Mexico, so I can believe they were real cash cows. My only regret is that I did not get the 2500 4X4 with the diesel engine. By that time they were pretty well refined. A friend has an early 90s that runs like a champ. Sadly they never put the Duramax diesel into the Suburban as they planned before the BK. I consider the strike of 1998 the beginning of the end of GM. I don't think I will support them again.
Building 500,000 cars is a lot of expense to look green
Toyota's plan failed them. They hoped to sell 250,000 Tundra trucks per year. The Prius would offset the CAFE numbers. Problem is they could not unload the trucks and ended up with a glut of Prii. Japan seeing their favorite corporation in dire straits puts up a healthy incentive and they unload the excess Prii.
Prius sales hit as Japan subsidy ends
Sales of the Prius have been boosted by government subsidies and tax breaks designed to boost demand for green cars, but these ended in early September.
"The Prius remains hugely popular, but its sales tumbled due to the end of green car subsidies," said association spokesman Toshiki Miyake.
"Many consumers put off decisions to buy green cars following the end of government incentives." in Japan.
Consider this. If Germany were to kick in about $4,000 for every German diesel vehicle sold in the USA, don't you think it would cause a buying frenzy? VW could not keep up with the demand for Jetta TDI models. I don't see the Germans playing those kind of games to sway the market. That is a Japanese thing.
Germany does favor diesels with their tax structure. "Fuel taxes in Germany are €0.4704 per litre for ultra-low sulphur Diesel and €0.6545 per litre for conventional unleaded petrol, plus Value Added Tax (19%) on the fuel itself and the Fuel Tax. That adds up to prices of €1.03 per litre for ultra-low sulphur Diesel and €1.22 per litre (approximately USD 6.28 per US gallon) for unleaded petrol (March 2009)." (Wikipedia)
I am not sure of the reasons why the big three are not more transparent about why each does not offer a turbo to twin turbo diesel/s for a large car. For example small block V-8 350 cubic inch. 5.7 L . With the 20 to 35% increase in fuel mileage, it would seem a miracle reprive for the large car segment. So for example, a Z06 Corvette can get 25/26 mpg on a Z06 and the gearing is 10% more aggressive than the stock model. So call a stock model 27.5 to 28.6 mpg. So as you can see that is par to +3.6 mpg for the old 25 mpg standard. So if either of those ranges got 20-35% better fuel mileage due to a turbo diesel (keeping in mind the new 2012 35 mpg standard; then the two ranges are 30 mpg to 35.1 mpg to 33 to 38.61 mpg !! As you can see that easily passes the old standard. The new standards will range between -5 mpg to +3.61.
Comments
When we hit the road trips, the choice of car is really a no brainer.
Well sure, I don't contest that at all. But you realize most of the posters reporting their fuel economy with their diesels were driving Jetta and Golf TDIs, with a smattering of Passats thrown in for good measure.
None were AWD, none exceeded 3500 pounds curb weight. None would get to your door any more or less than mine would. And most are probably used for the same thing I use mine for: commuting, around-town errands, and the occasional long trip on the highway. So I thought it was a fair comparison.
Now having said that, I also have a Subaru Outback Sport I bought specifically for the AWD it has, and that car has mediocre-to-poor fuel economy despite having only 170 hp. I very much like Subaru AWDs - it is not my first and I hope it will not be my last - but this is a car that very much needs a small diesel in it. With VW's 2.0 TDI under the hood it could probably do 50 mpg in my driving, saving me almost half my annual fuel bill with this car. So my next Subaru will have a diesel (with possible consideration given to a hybrid powertrain which is supposedly coming), or there won't BE a next Subaru for me.
But I'm quite sure I will continue to remain gun-shy of VWs for their seemingly endless reliability problems over the years, even if they start to sell an AWD diesel Tiguan, something I am surprised they don't already do.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Someone just asked when Subaru was bringing their Euro diesel to the US over in Edmunds Answers.
I don't follow the Subaru Crew - Future Models II discussion, but I figured Subaru would focus on hybrids for the US market instead of diesels, especially since they have access to Toyota tech now.
Apparently VW has a very impressive TC system with their FWD cars. I have not seen it work yet, but if my friend visits my AWD hill with his Golf TDI before winter is over, I'll let you know how it does. Although there are some conditions that even if you locked 2 front wheels together, they still will only perform, at best, 35% as well as AWD. As you well know with your Sube, AWD makes more than twice the difference of 2WD on a slippery hill.
As for other diesels coming to NA, I hope it happens too, but they will have to take into account that our ULSD is more difficult to deal with than Europes ULSD, as I think CA standards are about as restrictive as you can get the world.
Let's also hope that the HPFP are not made by Bosch or any other company that will try to shirk wty responsibility if the need arises.
Basically the (probably cost conscious) HPFP design is lubricated by the fuel and exposure to H20 tends to deteriorate the coating providing lubrication to a part that will now encourage friction. It is that friction generated when the lubrication coating deteriorates that causes the metals to "FLAKE" aka shrapnel.
I had a chat with my friend last night to make sure he knew to be using the additives and learned that he had been since 1995 even on his MY86. He said that the additives though would still not protect the seals in the pump and that was one of the main reasons he finally retired the 86. The pump was leaking. He says the new fuel attacks the seals. He said the 2.0 was designed from the ground up to run on ULSD. I then said, that the HPFP made by Bosch is the weak link then.
He also told me something that is far from his normal habit. Even though the urge this new Golf has, has caused more than a few very satisfying giggles just out of the blue through his day driving it, he confessed that the car is too complex for his liking and he intends to sell it while under warranty. !
My friend is a very intelligent mechanic and is not easily intimidated. He delves deeper into mechanical and electrical work with greater confidence than myself.
So the fact that this car has so many (complex) components that he knows is out of a reasonable$ realm of attacking when the time comes, that he doesn't intend for it to be a long termer. Now keep in mind, this comment is coming from a man who kept his last VW for 25 years.
So ultimately, that tells me this new TDI falls far short in terms of potential longevity compared to his 86. I trust him and his judgement enough that that has put a period behind my intention of pursuing an 09 or newer TDI. I would not be able to afford to sell/deal it every 3.5 years for another one. But if I drove 40000+ miles per year, then doing that could be more easily justified.
I wish I knew whether it was worth it to pursue bringing his 86 back to life. It sure requires a lot of work and $ tho, front to back. Would make an excellent summer car for me. The problem tho still, is you woukld have to burn FF or else risk damaging the new seals in the pump unless the seal content has been upgraded to resist this new ULSD. That may or may not be the case. What if you a batch of the old ones tho?
I wish I could find a (simple) little diesel and a decent seat, and slip them both into my CRV. Cost me less in the long run too. And I'd darn well fuel it with FF until my last years on earth.
On the one hand, you see almost wild scale panic when new car sales drop from 14 M to 16 M to 10.4 M. On the other hand, the envirocons blame cars for armaggedon to alien vehicle sightings. It probably will be tagged for causing vitamin B deficiencies.
Well if I needed another reason not to plunk down my money on a new TDI, there it is......
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Long story short: the "bad" emissions were not even MEASURABLE !! This is @ 185,000 miles, OCI's of 20,000 miles, over due a tune up, etc. CLEAN as the proverbial whistle. I can't even lie about the results, as they are reported by computer to higher (emissions) HQ.
I suspect that when my TDI's are 17 years old and have over 200,000 miles each, the same will be true. Complete and utter waste of time and money.
But FWIW, it has a wonder shifter and clutch take up
Just the other day i read the 2.0 gas job burned oil? Is that right? Surely they have fixed that by the time they make it into the new Jetta. I wonder when they addressed that? I should be asking ruking as i don't think u are much of a VW fan tho..
As for the complexity Dan was talking about, it wasn't just the engine and running gear management. It was the entire car. He commented on how the wipers will stop in low rain when you come up to a stoplight, and just endless stuff like that. He also cursed the ABS. But keep in mind heavy truck drivers spend their whole time feeling for the all elusive threshold of traction, so if you are not used to ABS, you have to stand hard on them once you realize they are activating and room is running out for another application. I suspect he had a close call or two with all the snow and ice we have had and learned the (almost) hard way with an impromptu ABS 101 course..
Doesn't NA know the earth shares all the air? Can NA afford to be the good guys? Especially when we hear of cases exactly as u described above? :sick:
ABS Software
TORRANCE, Calif., February 8, 2010 – Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc, today announced it will conduct a voluntary safety recall on approximately 133,000 2010 Model Year Prius vehicles... http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota-2010-prius-abs-recall-153614.aspx
and a slew more ( cooling pumps, water pumps, defective brakes, defective floor mats, defective accelerator pedals)
http://www.lemonauto.com/complaints/toyota/toyota_prius.htm
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_prius.html
And here on the 03 TDI, the cat o nine tails are brought out for (technical service bulletin)
1. the third brake light TSB
2. the change of (2) plastic rear door locks to steel TBS
Yes I had a coolant sensor go. 1 hour labor and $18. part?
Where I lived (Central Illinois/Sourthern Indiana), diesel is expensive, especially in winter - averages 15% more than gas, can go way higher, rarely its the same as gas. I drove mostly in town, and I consistently got 32mpg, 40mpg if I went on they highway. I put cetane in everytime I filled the tank, which was annoying, and I got diesel on myself more than once - yuck.
Ultimately, here in the middle of the country there isn't any economy in diesels compared with sophisticated gas engines/hybrids. It costs more to buy, expensive fuel, pollutes more, its a dirty fuel, for very noticible improvements in performance, reliability and longevity. If the government raised gas taxes by $.50 but did not raise diesel taxes, we'd all be driving diesels in a short order. No one seems to care about reliability and longevity, and no one seems to know the performance difference either.
Too many people look at the cost per gallon of fuel when making decisions. They should instead look at cost per mile which is typically expressed as cost per 1000 miles. Even though diesel costs more per gallon than gas, it costs a lot less per mile due to the higher efficiency. Add the benefit of higher torque and thus ability to pull a trailer, and getting a diesel car is a no-brainer. Just try to pull a boat trailer and boat using a Prius. It isn't going to happen.
As far as being a "dirty fuel" RUG to PUG is factorially DIRTIER !!! RUG to PUG can be delivered @ the pump 30 ppm sulfur (standard) to 90 ppm sulfur with off line FEE mitigation. ULSD on the other hand must be delivered at the pumps NTE 15 ppm with HUGE fines over that. So most is delivered @ 5 to 7 ppm sulfur. Defacto, this puts RUG to PUG 2 times to 18 times dirtier !!!!!!!!!!!!! This doesn't even address the fact that 1. 98% of the passenger vehicle uses the dirtier fuel and 2. more of it. So the order of magnitude is almost too hard to graphically illustrate.
But OVERALL, ULSD exhaust is not cleaner than AT-PZEV exhaust.
It's much cleaner than in the old days of a few years ago, but not cleaner overall.
(I know this has potential to start a big fight but I know I'm correct so I'm not going to respond to further challenges )
Tier II regulations also defined restrictions for the amount of sulfur allowed in gasoline and diesel fuel, since sulfur can interfere with the operation of advanced exhaust treatment systems such as selective catalytic converters and particulate filters. Sulfur content in gasoline was limited to an average of 120 parts-per-million (maximum 300 ppm) in 2004, and this was reduced to an average 30 ppm (maximum 80 ppm) for 2006. Ultra-low sulfur diesel began to be restricted to a maximum 15 ppm in 2006 and refiners are to be 100% compliant with that level by 2010.
Your governments' never rest. You do know they are talking of (like DPF's) R/P PF's (RUG/PUG PARTICULATE filters) for gassers such as hybrids and non hybrids? This should add app $1,500 to $2,000 per unit !!?? About time in that the RUG to PUG has been doing the majority of the passenger car fleet "sooting" aka that is 1.272 M diesel passenger vehicles to 256.128 M gasser vehicles. (2008 population of 257.4 M)
They will also begin smog and smog only tests for hybrids - which were previously EXEMPT. Soot levels (emitted) are far higher than diesels. Or was that thank heavens they don't teach real math, K-12 ???
I think your post shows that RUG does indeed have more sulfur than diesel. That being the reason an exhaust system for an AT-PZEV car like the Prius is so expensive. In the case of the Prius parts alone are about $1500. Just so the car will clean up our gas to that higher level. If you think the AT-PZEV is so safe park one in a garage running and a VW TDI in another. See who dies first. CO is much higher on a gas burner and much more deadly than a diesel burner. Just because the agencies cherry pick the emissions to satisfy the politicians does not mean much in reality. That is why the Natural Gas burning Civic is cleaner than a Prius or Volt.
https://www.toyotapartsbarn.com/toyota-prius-parts.html
You forgot to mention the high cost of doing the same thing for diesel vehicles.
The same reason diesel sedans have expensive exhaust scrubbing equipment on them.
Why do you think VW was out of the Jetta TDI market in the USA for almost a couple of years? Perfecting the diesel exhaust scrubbing system and trying to make it affordable.
The same reason all those trucks and school buses are being retro-fitted for burning the ULSD effectively. ( Which involve tax credit programs in some states. )
To try to lessen the deadly impact of the diesel exhaust.
How much you think the "Blue" urea system costs? A lot.
I'm just trying to balance some of the "over-board fan-dom" about diesel exhaust that's going on.
I would LOVE to have a diesel/hybrid sedan that got about 70 MPG. I wish that someone would build one for a decent price.
A quick nosing around shows that Mercedes may be working on one.
Really the cost for DPF's was assumed, inherent and obvious in the discussion. Not that you would care, but the DPF aftermarket (but oe) is app $3,000 for the complete system. Not that you would need to replace the complete system (VW 09 TDI.) There are some commercial links, but I do not want to run afoul of the Edmunds.com codes. However, adjusted for (year to year) inflation 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09) the price of the 09 TDI was literally the same for the 03 TDI without the DPF. (18k vs 21k= +3,000/8= 2.08% per year) You can check any car (gassers) and see that most to all years cost a min of inflation more year over year.
Since you brought it up, there was a pretty radical tweak on THAT 09 MY, which continue to the current 2011 MY . The hp/torque was radically bumped up 55/52.3% !!!! 140 hp/236 ft #'s. This is not even to mention the car is quantitatively and qualitatively a much better vehicle. Sure you can get up to 59 mpg, but you really have to drift into hyper miling techniques. I can keep it under 92 mph and get 42/44 mpg.
So for example, school buses and such are NOT part of the passenger vehicle fleet. YET because they are specialized AND can be "forced to modify" you see no requirement for them to switch over to gasser !!??
speaking of the exhaust scrubbing, for a while I was a regular renter of large Freightliner and IH diesels from Ryder (to haul around a school marching bands gear). This ended about 2 years ago, but the last one i rented was a brand new FL.
basically the same model as before, but now with a scrubber system. Lot's of stickers, and required instructions from the rental guy.
IIRC, it would somehow clean itself on the highway, but if you were driving local, every so often you had to do something to clear the system out. And if you waited too long, it would literally shut itself off, even if it was running, and you had to go through all kinds of stuff to get it started (honestly not sure if they had to send a service vehicle out).
now this was on trucks they gave to anyone with a license, most of whom had zero clue what they were doing. COuld easilty see that not ending well!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Gary is the one who brought up the costs, not me.
I just happen to remember a few Prius owners getting stuck with very large bills when the Non CARB gas was destroying their Prius catalytic converters and Toyota would not replace them under warranty. It has nothing to do with those wanting to buy a diesel. Just a reminder that gas cars can also have issues relating to our poor fuel in the USA.
Let's see, IF what you are saying is true THEN Toyota has eaten the hybrid costs since it hit the US market (2003 that I am acquainted) . Rumor has it 8 years since (2003) the Prius line is still NOT profitable. VW has "eaten" the cost of the 09 DPF and that year made BILLIONS, while Toyota LOST factorially more billions !!?? They also sold 25% diesels!? Prius costs more than the Jetta TDI and it is really not nor has been a competitor with the TDI, sans fuel mileage. Indeed my 03 TDI got better fuel mileage than either the 03 MY /04 MY Prius'. 04 Prius was a radically new car !! Indeed Camry Hybrid is a like for like competitor for the Jetta TDI and again costs more and gets LESS mpg, etc.?????
But then on the other hand, a certain amount of old news is part and parcel of diesels and gassers. Gagrice brings up his 21 year old car and I a 17 year old SUV (GASSERS). The SMOG ONLY measuring devices can NOT even measure the bad emissions, even after 17 to 21 years and in my case, 187,000 miles ......
Since we are talking diesels, I suspect that 10 years from now, I will be saying the same thing (as para 2) only with 300,000 to 400,000 miles on the diesel.
You want to complain about the EPA forcing mandates for cleaner fuel, then whine about the result of them NOT doing that. Can't eat AND have cake.
(Mountain out of Molehill)
Out of more than 2 million Prii sold worldwide in the first 10 years, I'd say the "damage" to the cc is pretty minor, over the wider sample of cars on the road WITHOUT that problem.
Certainly when ethanol and MTBE were being run, there was and continues to be unreported equipment damage due to the governmental mandates of ethanol concentrations science experiments. They are busy running experiments with higher than 10% ethanol: 15%-20% and the unreported damage is probably factorially more. I have read in passing there is hope to run up to 20% ethanol, which to me would be disasterous!!
Ok, you get bonus points for spelling it right.
He gets demerits for how long it took. The Prius came out in 1997, that makes it going on 15 years to sell 2 million. Who cares it still will not compare with a VW TDI on any level except city driving MPG. If you can stand the rough ride and noise go get a Prii.
PS
Edmund's spell checker does not recognize Prii.
It actually makes me wonder why the powers that be sanctioned putting Toyota through the press wringer?
Hard to believe any automaker would sell 500,000 cars at a loss, even if they were trying to green up their image. The profit number supposedly is $3,100 a car as of April 2009. (Daily Tech)
(Ignore the red spelling error to keep the current spelling of the word and that'll add the word to your personal word list).
You don't really believe they would say they were dumping cars to gain market share and look green do you? I don't think there is any proof they are making a profit on any given vehicle. They don't give out that kind of proprietary information. We do know they were selling like gangbusters in Japan until the government pulled the subsidy. Sales went to nothing. Just like the Volt and Leaf way over priced due to expensive components.
But I do know this Civic Hybrids are no longer being sold in Japan
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/15/report-honda-civic-sales-ending-in-japan/
Now Honda hybrids are the second largest selling hybrid in the world. @ 255,000 units world wide.
I am totally unfamilar with Japanese tax law to even swag how they would write this down. Now if I were to buy a hybrid Honda would be one of my top choices.
Ruking, I remember reading years ago that GM had amortized the tooling for Suburbans so much that the profit on each one was something like $17,000. Probably a bit of an exaggeration.
My favorite Suburban was the model built from 1989 to about 2000. They sold well during that decade. Most were built in Mexico, so I can believe they were real cash cows. My only regret is that I did not get the 2500 4X4 with the diesel engine. By that time they were pretty well refined. A friend has an early 90s that runs like a champ. Sadly they never put the Duramax diesel into the Suburban as they planned before the BK. I consider the strike of 1998 the beginning of the end of GM. I don't think I will support them again.
Toyota's plan failed them. They hoped to sell 250,000 Tundra trucks per year. The Prius would offset the CAFE numbers. Problem is they could not unload the trucks and ended up with a glut of Prii. Japan seeing their favorite corporation in dire straits puts up a healthy incentive and they unload the excess Prii.
Prius sales hit as Japan subsidy ends
Sales of the Prius have been boosted by government subsidies and tax breaks designed to boost demand for green cars, but these ended in early September.
"The Prius remains hugely popular, but its sales tumbled due to the end of green car subsidies," said association spokesman Toshiki Miyake.
"Many consumers put off decisions to buy green cars following the end of government incentives." in Japan.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11482583
Consider this. If Germany were to kick in about $4,000 for every German diesel vehicle sold in the USA, don't you think it would cause a buying frenzy? VW could not keep up with the demand for Jetta TDI models. I don't see the Germans playing those kind of games to sway the market. That is a Japanese thing.
Actually it's an efficiency of Prii.
Germany does favor diesels with their tax structure. "Fuel taxes in Germany are €0.4704 per litre for ultra-low sulphur Diesel and €0.6545 per litre for conventional unleaded petrol, plus Value Added Tax (19%) on the fuel itself and the Fuel Tax. That adds up to prices of €1.03 per litre for ultra-low sulphur Diesel and €1.22 per litre (approximately USD 6.28 per US gallon) for unleaded petrol (March 2009)." (Wikipedia)