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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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the Colt was the only car that not only did I have to downshift to 4th to pull the hills on the Pallisades Parkway, I had to drop it into 3rd to not become a traffic hazard!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Long range would be a great feature if one didn't have to stop every hour or two anyway to find a restroom. :P
The superior fuel is probably natural gas or propane for the big trucks and buses though.
In my case, the Audi was my second new car, my first was a 1979 Scirocco, a car that was in virtually every respect (except one) superior to the Audi. Back in that era my daily uniform for client visits was a 3-Piece suit, and the brutal Chicago summers took no mercy on me when driving the Scirocco (which had no A/C). I drove the Scirocco 72,000 miles in 18 months (two summers was all I could take) before I traded it in on the Audi. The Audi in turn only lasted me another year and a half, this time to be replaced by the wonderful Audi GT Coupe of 1982 vintage (which was produced and sold into the 1983 calendar year and the only model year available with the full forty-five degree tuck and roll leather treatment). Mine was black with the very dark chocolate brown leather interior; very nice.
Good news/bad news regarding the second Audi; shortly after starting my business I realized that the Audi was just too expensive for me to maintain; I think the car couldn't bear to be traded or sold off to another owner so it arranged for some dude in a 1974 Chevy Caprice Classic (a land yacht if there ever was one) to run a stop-sign at 8:00 on a Monday morning, and my Audi T-Boned the Chevy (totalling both cars). I came out without a scratch; not so my car, so violent was the crash that every body panel was bent except the metal sun-roof. The driver of the Chevy spent some time in the hospital and then some more time in alcohol rehab.
But really in the passenger cars area how many people really do run medium duty engines ??? The main one with me would be what is the real Hino nexus with the average gasser truck engine and passenger car gasser satisfaction? Let me put it another way I didn't buy a VW TDI 2.0 because it burns diesel like a ...Mack truck. Or you probably didn't buy a gasser because it runs like a Hino.
All I'm saying is show me. From my quickie skimming, that "rule" may not even be true for diesel trucks, much less passenger cars. I like fleet studies - those tend to follow the bottom line and ignore "rules".
Another thing I'm curious about in the beefier debate is whether the same drivetrain is put into cars with both engine options (does VW do that?).
I have lots of firsthand experience with 800000 to 1000000 mile heavy truck engines that were still running strong and some had had preventative maintenance lower bearing replacement at 400000 to 500000 miles and the old ones that were removed were all still within serviceable spec tolerances. Each engine had never had the head off. Each engine had a full set of fuel injector replacement when the bearings were done. Hp and torque and fuel economy was restored overnight. All engines had 12000 mile oil and filter changes, spec required airfilter changes, and coolant changes were stretched a 100000 miles. One engine had a turbo start to pull oil at 400000. That was fairly unusual. All engines were plugged in for winter starting, and RARELY and I do mean RARELY, were exposed to ether starts. All engines were worked hard, pulled 50000 to 130000 lb, but were cared for.
I know of not one single heavy truck gas engine that has managed more than 180000 miles and even that was a rare beast. And if I recall I think the head had been off that engine even before it hit 100k. My memory is failing cuz that goes back a long time. The longevity potential for a diesel vs a gas, when treated properly, is just simply not fairly comparable as the diesel simply annihilates from everything from longevity to fuel economy to torque.
180k seems short. My neglected minivan isn't too far away from that landmark at 150k. And again, I'm not sure that experiences like yours translate well to passenger cars. Surely there's lot of TCO reports for European diesel taxis out there we could dig up (and conversely, we could wonder why so few US ones are diesels - the new ones in NYC are Escape Hybrids).
My memory is failing cuz that goes back a long time.
I know the feeling. :shades:
2011 versions are even greater: so the
2.0 L posts 125 ft #'s.
the 2.5 L (5 cylinder) posts 177 ft#'s,
the 2.0 TDI posts 236 ft #'s.
These are summertime hwy numbers, 22.7 mpg for last trip I took to Fla in Sept.
How a diesel gets 1000 miles on a tank has me puzzled.
40 mpg with a 25 gallon tank, but what is small enough to get 40 mpg and still has a 25 gallon tank? My '70 Delta 88 had a 25 gallon tank. It was 21 ft long and 7.5 ft wide.
medium to heavy duty trucks are a whole different animal though. You just don't see many gas engines anymore it seems on those.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Release Date: Jan 25, 2011
Interesting too that Bosch funded the study. I thought they did a lot more than just diesel fuel injection stuff; stuff that isn't limited by fuel choice.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Dodge was so cheap, they used the VW engine (rated over 80HP with FI) and used a carburetor which dropped it to below 70HP.
So it takes all kinds and I guess that helps keep our world interesting.
Btw, it wasn't me who mentioned the Volvo XC twin turbo. It was that other chap. I have a feeling it is a gas job, even though after a quick search, it appears Volvo had some impressive diesel options in an all aluminum 5 cylinder. I suspect tho, like so many other diesels, that they are probably not available in our mkt.
For interest's sake, one of 2 diesels has 420 Nm torque from 1500-3250 revs.
And the inline 6 cyl twin scroll gasser has 440 Nm torque from 2100-4200 revs. Both have impressive numbers, but when you consider the diesel has almost as much torque only it arrives 600 rpm lower, at only 1500 (pardon me while I take time out for a vicariously imagined giggle here for a moment) :shades: which is only just up off idle. That 600 rpm difference is pretty significant in real world driving because in stop and go, 1000 to 1500 rpm is mostly the rev range you are using. That type of roll-on torque, at diesel-normal low revs, is all encompassing and intoxicating. I believe that is why you enjoy your TDI so much. Not just for the FE, but for the very nature and characteristic of how the engine works.
They listed another diesel that has 400 Nm torque from 1400-2750 revs.
They are available in AWD with a 6 speed manual. I wonder if they know how lucky they are to have such options available to them? Probably not. It is human nature for us to take for granted.
The Dodge Omni was the car that used a rabbit engine (block, not sure how much more of it though). The Colt was a Mitsubishi underneath.
The twin stick was on the model before mine (the run ended with the 1984 models). really neat car. My 85 had a normal 5 speed stick.
the turbo model was the hot set up (would run with, or around, a GTI). I had the turbo package (suspension, tires, seats, trim) but without the turbo engine. Handly like a go cart, but slow.
actually, it was much like a diesel at the time. You needed good handling to not have to slow down for on ramps if you wanted to merge safely! Momentum needed to be maintained at all costs!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Dodge was so cheap, they used the VW engine (rated over 80HP with FI) and used a carburetor which dropped it to below 70HP.
That was the Omni/Horizon that used the VW motor, not the Colt. The early Colts had the Mitusbishi 2.6 IIRC and the later ones had 1.5s and 1.6s. I know the later 80s ones (Dodge Colt GT) had a 1.6l turbo and the hot swap was the 2.0l turbo out of an Eclipse.
Yeah, me too. I bought my current daily-driver gas TSX when the rumour of a diesel TSX was fairly strong, about 3 years ago. Well, that was then and this is now. I don't think there's going to be a diesel TSX anytime soon, if ever, in North America.
My original plan was to allow a couple of years for the diesel TSX to settle out, then trade mine in.
Plus which, if it doesn't come with a manual, I'm not buying it.
Oh well. . .
Thanks for pointing me to the news about the report from the NHTSA wrapping up its preliminary evaluation of the HPFP problem, which apparently was issued just before I wrote my post about my personal concerns on the matter. How could I have missed that!
Good to see that the investigation at least forced VW to go on record, making it clear to all that they were aware of the pump's vulnerability even before the first "Clean Diesel" was sold here. (So glad to be of service, Wolfsburg, as one of your unwitting guinea pigs!) Just as clearly, the company's response, particularly as illustrated by that excerpt from its May 2010 TSB, confirms what we already believed regarding VW's short-sighted strategy, i.e. to deny warranty coverage whenever possible on grounds of alleged fuel contamination. Hard to swallow the claim that gasoline is the cause of 90% of the failures (though if their own service jockeys and salesmen are pumping gas into TDI's, perhaps ignorance truly knows no bounds!). That assertion would seem to be belied by VW/Bosch's avowed efforts to beef up its fragile fuel pump -- 3 redesigns in 2 1/2 years! I don't think anyone really expects them to design a pump capable of surviving a diet of petrol...
Although the overall incidence of HPFP failure doesn't look too bad statistically, unfortunately for me the rate was highest for the '09 MY -- a bit over 1 in 200 so far, worse than I'd hoped. On the other hand, now that the investigation has been elevated to the "Engineering Analysis" stage, the chances of an eventual recall would seem to be greater. So if my puny pump can survive long enough, maybe I can get me a more "robust" replacement....
Cheers!
After 4 years with the thing, he can't WAIT to trade it in on, of all things, a top-of-the-line loaded Fiesta. He had so many problems with the Beetle, lots of them paid for by him because he has a long commute and so does a lot of miles in a year, that he says he will never consider another VW or another diesel ever again.
He also wasn't that impressed with the mileage because he had a spouse with a Prius, and all the times he couldn't drive the VW for extended periods, he drove the Prius in and so had a chance to compare the mileage back to back. He said the Prius was always 5-8 mpg better. He has a fair amount of stop-and-go to get through each day.
To say he would never consider another VW or another diesel is very strong words, but I was witness to some of the strandings that VW did to him, and I can appreciate how he might feel that way. I feel confident that diesel has no future in America in passenger cars unless some non-premium make BESIDES VW starts to produce them in large numbers. Perhaps one day we will reach the point where every person's first VW is not automatically his/her last, but we aren't there yet....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Tell us the specifics of his disdain for the diesel.
And to be fair, anyone who has never had or considered a diesel before, that then ventures into oil burning waters, sometimes inadvertently bring upon themselves their own grief. Like lending their car to a friend or neighbour who 'tops up' the tank with gas. Other woes that can surround diesels (although doesn't seem to apply to your co-worker, but does to many) are owners who do very short trips and the engine never gets a chance to warm up properly because it produces heat almost too efficiently. And cold weather climates exasperate that further.
I would certainly agree that VW's (gasser or diesels) are not for everybody. I would also most certainly agree that turbo diesels are NOT for everybody. I think you can say the same for gassers, even as they are 98% of the passenger vehicle fleet. I would also agree that VW's probably has/have more reliability and durability issues percentage wise. Because they are a relatively small to niche market share (03 MY=225,000 Total produced) VW's TOTAL 1.5 to maybe 3% of the total US market share, that other oem's " more reliable and durable" might have less percentages, but have much GREATER NUMBERS of reliability and durability issues.
I am a tad confused (logic wise). IF he had such good luck with the Toyota Prius,(why has) he has decided to get a Ford Fiesta ??
Correct -- the TDI timeline was the same in the U.S. The gap was due to the more stringent emissions standards that went into effect. In order to meet them, VW had to redesign its injection and emission-control systems, so the 2-liter "Clean Diesel" comes with EGR, a particulate filter and a NOX trap, and the Pumpe Duse was replaced by a Common Rail. Meanwhile the U.S. & Canada were replacing sooty ol' LSD with cleaner-burning ULSD, which without sufficient additives, has much less lubricity. New system, new fuel, ergo new problems. And to compound matters, it now appears that VW released its new version TDI in a kind of beta form so that we early-adopters could have the honor of testing it for them!
Planned obsolescence or, as you put it, padding "the profit margin on the customer's dime", is certainly nothing new (maybe the heart and soul of capitalism?). But if we are to be made guinea pigs without our consent, then VW should be made to bear the cost when the experiment goes awry!
Anyway, sounds like you've had a pretty adventurous motoring life, so may the road stretch onward!
It is not uncommon to see a higher tow rating in vehicles which can be optioned with either an auto or a stick, with the autos. And this example seems to hold true whether comparing a modern day car like a Chevy Cruze, all the way up to a Dodge Cummins diesel.
I have always assumed the mfgrs were concerned about clutch or 'smooth' use of the tranny in the manuals, so the autos were, by nature of the beast, more naturally immune to abuse. But I still have not read any definitive reason, unless that's it in a nutshell.
It's not as if they can't build a manual to withstand the stresses of monster torque...consider big trucks...their manuals are actually more sturdy than their autos. Granted it will be beefier (read heavier) in every way, but then, surely an auto capable of big torque must be more sturdy also?
If I could buy a 3 series with that wonderful diesel (providing it had an oil sump dipstick), great seats, and a 6 speed stick with AWD, if not for my concerns with "The Right to Repair" looming forever over me and my limited funds, I could actually justify a one last time huge lay down and have that car go to the end of my driving years. Of course I would have to keep an eye on rust potential so might do an annual chassis oiling. Anyway..
It's a chick car.
Hmm, but he had a New Beetle (even the TDI can't overcome that "stigma").
Nevermind. :shades:
Gosh, no one could say it better.
So regarding the lower sulphur content diesel we are forced to use now, what are the ramifications on longevity when used on older diesels, say the first generation TDI's up to 2006? What about on the pre TDI's?
My friend recently replaced his aging but much loved 86 Jetta turbo dsl 1.6. He bought a 2011 Golf wagon TDI. Dan and I are both mechanics and fear the Right To Repair issues have already infringed on our usual practices of doing all our own repairs. But it was very evident on my last call with him as you could tell that as he explained the complexity of his new car (eg pumping fuel back to the cat for burning off carbon etc) and etc etc that I couldn't believe my ears when even Dan, a diehard do-it-all himself no matter what it is, relented and said he feared the time has finally come that the new cars now are very strategically designed to put us shade-tree mechanics out of business.
I can buy his old 86. But it has many many troubles. Leaking fuel pump is one of the biggies $wise. It has a lot of miles, but have been cared-for miles. Can only guess the miles cuz the odometer broke over 10 years ago around 175k. Pretty sure it is deep into the 300's now. Engine and turbo does not use oil. (He idled it down for a minute every single shutdown to keep the turbo bearings lubed if he had been working it either spirited up his own street or any destination atop a hill). He drives heavy truck also, so I know the tranny and clutch will be fine. But suspension is tired all over again. He replaced all four corners about 12 years ago. I had thought of buying it to see if it could be a spare 2nd car for summer use. But alas I think it is just used up a bit too much to justify it as a project. A lot of moulding has fallen prey to the rays of the sun of course.
An interesting piece of trivia I think you (and a few others..ruking etc) will appreciate..the entire exhaust system (save for an aftermkt hanger bracket or two) is still original on that car. And that was pre-SS systems. Not without a bit of on-your-back effort mind you.. twice in the 25 years, when he used a portable propane/oxygen torch kit to reweld some pipe unions at the muffler and front pipe. lol Isn't that incredible?? Show me a gas job that can go 25 years on the original exhaust system...soot is your friend, my friend..LOL :shades:
I've read that before ...
gerbs, "Jeep Liberty Diesel" #10886, 23 May 2010 4:28 pm (last sentence in the post).
If I had the commute to justify the premium, that would be high on my shopping list.
hopefully by the time that comes out, they will have worked out the bugs on the powertrain! Oh, and a nice long powertrain warranty sounds good (though since I would likely only but a TDI if I was going to put a ton of miles on it, a 100K warranty won't go that far).
Put me in the camp of wanting Ford to put on in the Focus hatch, or maybe Honda in the upcoming Civic redesign (along with the 5 door hatch, am I being greedy?)
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
On the ULSD (15 ppm sulfur by law) issue, BUT (nominally delivered at the pump between 5 to 10 ppm sulfur) it can be a two edged sword.
Some good news RUG to PUG is 2 to 18 TIMES dirtier !!?? Not even many in the know eviron cons know that ppm sulfur by law is 30 ppm. It also can be delivered@ the pump up to 90 ppm sulfur with "OFFLINE" FEE mitigation. Biodiesel for discussion purposes is pumped @ 1 ppm sulfur (ZERO is more the rule) So in this example RUG to PUG can be up to 90 times dirtier.
Another item is most later model diesel are actually designed to RUN lower ppm sulfur diesel. So in that sense ALL good.
If there are any concerns with lubricity one can run an additive. Another is run bio diesel every so often.
Well, he says leather seats are a must-have, etc etc, plus he really likes Sync. To equip the Prius the way he would want it would give it a sticker about $8000 more than the Fiesta or something like that, and he still wouldn't have Sync. I think he is dumping the VW earlier than he intended to replace it, and so going with a less expensive vehicle as a result.
Diesel continues to be $0.25/gallon MORE than premium unleaded in my area, as it has been consistently for well over a year. That makes it about $0.45/gallon more than regular unleaded, or about 13% more at current prices, which is one more reason I probably would go hybrid before I would go diesel. But a really good diesel small car from anyone besides VW would get a look from me even so.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Sometimes it's just fun to make you torque fans drool, lol.
Dyno-Tested: Dodge, GMC And Ford Heavy-Duty Diesel Pickups (Straightline)
As for the price of fuel per gal most folks over look the real calculations 1. like for like 2. per mile driven.
So for example the real competitor for the VW Jetta TDI is a Camry Hybrid. As such it is thousands more and gets worse fuel mileage than the Jetta TDI.
The real number to "run" is Cost Per Mile. This metric can be used to compare apples-to-apples between ANY vehicle no matter what fuel it consumes.
My TDI (over 120K miles) averages $0.09 USD per mile.
I dare you to find another vehicle available in North America that can come even close to that number.
Lets not forget that VW Jetta is a REAL car with heated leather seats, thick steel body, Unlimited Mileage corrosion warantee and German roadcar manors. It has returned 56MPG with 4 adults on a 12-hour trip during 90 degree weather with the AC on high the entire trip.
The "hybreds" I have looked at are made of thin metal, cheap-feeling materials and do not drive like a German car. Oh- and dont forget to "run the numbers" on replacing the battery-pack.