Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options
What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Last I read they Latinos are about 50% of the population of CA. They believe the US stole CA from Mexico. Our courts are goofy enough to give it back. Then we would have lots of diesel choices sold in MX. Don't forget Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Nevada, AZ, Utah, NM and TX were all part of Mexico according to Spain. :shades:
To counter: I have NEVER had a problem finding a diesel pump either rural or urban in 8 years of driving a diesel car. It might have to do with all the diesel pickup trucks out there. Spilt fuel doesn't stink up your shoes? Have you been around gasoline so long you have forgotten the acrid smell if you get just a bit on your hands while fueling??? Diesel just smells different, but it certainly doesn't smell worse than a good whiff of gasoline. Diesel mechanics are also not difficult to find. They are everywhere. Do an internet search. As for cost, you point out that diesel in your area costs you nearly 6% more than RUG. I have two similar sized and equipped small cars, a gasser and a diesel. One gets 30 mpg, the other 50mpg.
I think the main reason for not buying a diesel here in the US is that the choices are so limited. Unlike in Europe, here most people cannot find a diesel car that truly fits their individual needs and desires. Over the pond on the other hand, you find diesel models that are not only the most fuel efficient, but particular models may have the lowest emissions, or the most power, or the greatest range, plus being fun to drive and quiet. Over there diesels are available in every type of vehicle: SUV, CUV, small cars, luxury cars, sports cars, etc. I don't see the lack of availability here changing any time soon. So diesels will remain niche vehicles for some time to come.
We actually had one open. The US government (probably many other entities) granted a $535 M "stimulus", to open the business not far from the recently closed GM/Toyota NUMMI plant. The business is a solar panel manufacturing concern. Last I checked there is literally no short term hope (5 years) they will turn a profit. Amist much fanfare and after the President of (these here) UNITED States gave the business and manufacturing plant top billing, (not long after) IT had to lay off hundreds of people.
Now the interesting thing is locally (literally next door) we can't even get solar panel permits, let alone economically source the solar panel products made literally less than 3 miles from here !!!! For all it economically matters, they could be in the Sahara Desert.
Same here in San Diego. A friend quit his job installing Solar. The red tape and high cost of permits has just about killed the industry in CA.
Diesel THE BEST ALTERNATIVE ENERGY
One glaring example is the agriculture industry. One beacon of light here has been the University of California @ Davis (GO AGGIES) . On some to many levels, the university and actually alumni was/were involved in taking CA wine from "rot gut" status to pinnacles previously unknown. To show the almost absolute DOMINANCE, one of the achievements has been a $2 dollar line of wine (aka 2 buck chuck) TASTE competitive with some of the most costly French wines, in blind taste tests and over a series of years !!!!!! Arguably CA agriculture is or was one of THE most prolific in the history of the earth.
However,....Some of those communities have easily 20-30% UNEMPLOMENT (higher than the great DEPRESSION days of 24.5%. It actually would be much HIGHER ( my swag easily DOUBLE) if not for the so called "grey market migrant worker situation" (I really don't want to get political here) that pretty much the country has heard about.
So to give a back drop, CA state has what 24 M passenger vehicles, I have read in passing. The US passenger vehicle fleet is (as of 2008) 257.4 M vehicles. IF CA conforms to statistics and also has less than one half of 1 percent diesel passenger cars, that number is app 120,000 D2 products? One further operational reality is I really do not need to fill for 500 to 700 miles.
Next the the magnificent low RPM torque, the long range is my #2 reason for owning a diesel.
PS
You are right about unemployment in the CA agriculture zones. The Imperial Valley which is the Nations Salad bowl, has the consistent highest unemployment in the Nation.
I don't like getting gas on my hands or shoes either, but it seems more volatile, less "greasy" and the fumes do go away. Sometimes I'll have to wash my hands several times with Dawn to get rid of it.
My (limited) experience with diesel is that the smell hangs around lots longer, and there are lots of internet hits that offer "extraordinary" solutions to get rid of the smell. (This eHow example is the first hit I got tonight).
I believe the ratio of gas/diesel cars in the EU is just about 50/50. I wonder if diesel use would really be that high there if it wasn't subsidized and taxed less, unlike here where it's taxed more. (popularmechanics.com)
UK prices for today:
http://www.petrolprices.com/search.html?search=Shrewsbury%2C+Shropshire
On the smell. CA does not mandate the fancy pump handles on diesel dispensers. The reason is diesel fumes are not cancer causing like RUG fumes. A whiff of unleaded gas and your dead or cutting your life shorter. The best is biodiesel, smells like french fries.
I know you were being funny... but if you do some research on "biodiesel", you will find that it DOES tend to clog up fuel-injectors, fuel-pumps and also can leave a sticky residue in the combustion-chamber. (Depending on the source of the biodiesel... peanuts, corn, soybeans... etc)
This is why most commercial diesel engine-makers warn against using any higher mixture than 10% (B10)
Another thing is if regulators were really serious about biodiesel, they would support oems' making diesel engines that are actually certified to run up to B100.
PS
I am reading some issues with even good biodiesel mixes. I had high hopes for biodiesel.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of truths to what you are probably reading. Like you, I STILL hold out for much more of an alternative fuels share for biodiesel. I think one of the things that is so WRONG with it is that it is a MOST logical solution to the issues currently at ... issue for RUG to PUG !!!
More on topic I understand that E85 products have app 25% LESS fuel mileage that like RUG vehicles (some owners report -33%). So for example if a GM/FORD/Chysler (BIG)SUV gets an environmentally friendly 15 mpg, its E85 like model can get 11.25 mpg. They're HELPING !!!! http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/e85-vs-gasoline-comparison-test.html
Apparently Passat TDI is on the way for 2012 - and with a manual transmission! Maybe we can hope for a Tiguan or an AWD TDI offering for 2013? !
I think this is really too bad in that the Japanese oems have been, do and will continue to sell D2 products on the world market. For whatever reasons, (I have read in passing) Honda is having a very hard time getting market share (gasser AND DIESEL) in Europe. They set a goal of 25% of their sales in Europe (for example) to be 25% diesels (notably the iCDI). There was much fan fare (2004) when Honda took a concept to market turbo diesel engine led by the engineer who developed their VTEC gasser engines. By all accounts it is an excellent turbo diesel product.
I have also read in passing the Passat will most likely go the urea (BMW, MB) route.
So far oems offering passenger vehicle D2 products are Audi, VW, BMW, MB. I purposely left off the commercial side.
As a result, automakers will sell about 545,000 diesel-powered light vehicles to North America in 2016, up from 167,000 in 2009, with fellow German automakers Volkswagen AG and BMW leading the way, Frost & Sullivan said in September."
Mercedes Will Offer Diesel C-Class Sedan in U.S. Next Year (Green Car Advisor)
So this is a tad sketchy, but,... IF true, 545,000 diesel car SALES (projection) will be 1.817 M of (old news 2008, 1.272 M/254.7 M) or a SHADE or 2 over one half of 1 percent (.007059) IF there is ZERO real growth from 2008 to 2012 MY's.
What is interesting to me is the Japanese are able to build a complex over priced hybrid, yet cannot build a diesel that can pass the EPA/CARB smog test. Example, we were supposed to have the Honda Accord diesel on our highways by 2008. Of course they cannot build a decent hybrid either.
I don't think the hybrids will grow that much. The mileage comparison has become much closer with DI gas engines. I have not driven one so cannot say if it is worth a hoot on power. I know my son in law gets close to 40 MPG with his $12k Yaris. Though he would rather drive my daughters GMC PU truck.
This might be a better apples to apples comparison as the NHTSA registered passenger vehicle fleet is as of 2008, 257.492 M and 312,209 US(08) hybrids or .0012124 of the passenger vehicle fleet.
Again for comparisons the passenger diesel car fleet is 1.272M or .0049399 shade under one half of 1 percent(which is a subset of less than 2% diesel (75% of which are so called light, but heavy trucks). This means that diesel passenger cars are 4 times more numerous.
Fiesta, Yaris and Fit would have a 3 or 4 cylinder 1100cc to 1300cc
Civic, Optima and Focus, a 1.6 to 1.8 litre
Accord, Malibu and Fusion, a 2 to 2.2 litre
Large cars, and most compact to full-sized 1/2 ton trucks and CRV, Escape to Grand Cherokee sized SUV's, a 2.5 to 3 litre
Large, heavy SUV's like Sequoia's and Expedition's, Yukon's could use a 3 to 4.5 litre
And of course, 3 to 7 litre for the heavier larger trucks.
And unlike hybrids, would deliver their EPA ratings and better, throughout the nation, including freezing states and provinces.
All turbos of course.
And with manual transmission options right across the board in every trim level you desire. And don't make me choose a sunroof when all I really want are heated power seats and a heated steering wheel. And I am perfectly capable of dimming my own rear view mirror thank you very much.
A guy can dream I guess..
What has me thinking that I should let go of that notion is Volkswagen's inability to remedy (or even own up to) an apparent design flaw in its new, high-tech, and highly-praised, common rail turbocharged engine. The flaw becomes manifest when the high pressure fuel pump fails. The pump feeds fuel to the injectors via the "common" rail, so if it stops working, then naturally the engine does, too. If that were all that happened, there would be no story here. Unfortunately, in an alarming number of well-documented instances, such failures have required replacement of the entire fuel system, from tank to injectors and back again. This is because when the pump fails, it doesn't simply stop working -- it literally self-destructs, and many of its bits and shards are sent flying throughout the system, contaminating and ruining everything else on down the line. The cost of repair and replacement is staggering -- $6-$10K according to owners -- and even though most of the cars involved have been under VW's original warranty, the company has often reportedly refused to pay, citing contaminated fuel as the cause. (Even if true, and water or gasoline in the fuel is the culprit, the fact that pump failure leads to such calamitous consequences suggests that there must be a flaw in the engineering and/or overall design of the fuel system. And don't a lot of those pickup trucks I see on the roads run on the same fuel?)
Though nobody knows precisely how many "catastrophic" HPFP failures have occurred (except perhaps the folks at corporate VW, and they're not talking!), only a small percentage of the new 2.0 TDI engines appear to have suffered this breakdown so far. Then again, most of the afflicted engines were relatively young; even the oldest ones in service here today didn't hit the road until late 2008! What concerns me most is the trajectory the problem will take as these engines (and their HPFPs) age and go out of warranty. Will the failure rate remain relatively flat, or will it shoot up significantly? Volkswagen's current game plan -- of denial, evasion and avoidance of responsibility -- isn't calculated to win my trust or allay my fears. Unless the company can come up with a real solution that can be implemented effectively or, as a stop-gap, grant owners a solid extension of their power train warranty, I'm afraid I'll be forced to give up my sweet ride. And if I get to that point, I'm also afraid that VW will have witlessly squashed the nascent diesel renaissance it sought to promote. Shame, shame, shahame!!!
OTHER MANUFACTURERS BESIDES VW
have to supply us with usable, impressive diesel sedans.
Manufacturers like Honda, Toyota, Ford, Mitsu, and Hyundai need good, solid, affordable 5-passenger diesel sedans in their US lineup.
Is this only on the 2.0 TDI which they call Clean Diesels? In Cda, 06 was the last year for the 1.9 TDI. We had no TDI's for 07 and 08. Then out comes the 2.0.
This story also reminds me of how attempts to pad the profit margin on the customer's dime, have been made many years ago. Remember when they first made the TDI? What, late 90's? Well I was in a repair shop one day and they were working on the valve train of a TDI conveniently just out of wty. On the old 1.6 turbos, the timing gear on the camshaft was welded in place. Well when they changed to the TDI's, they started press-fitting that gear. Which brings us to this customer's problem on his car. The press-fit has started to loosen and the gear had started to wobble. Over time it finally failed which, of course, landed him at the garage. The the point here is pretty obvious. Manufacturers seem to be incessantly try to improve their profit margin as much as they can, by constantly testing the boundaries of what they feel they can get away with. As they give us new and improved zoom, they also have to make sure not too much time goes by before they get to sell you the replacement. It's all very strategic, and morality is not usually part of the equation, unless we are talking about the lack of it.
All that said, I am certain that is why some customers lease, even though they know it costs them more to lease than buying and holding. Maybe the trick is to buy, but always deal under wty. Of course that doesn't hep you if the mfgr tries to shirk their responsibility.
If you can write it off to a business that is probably the best way to go. The other is a 7 year 100k mile bumper to bumper warranty from VW. Then sell while the warranty is still in affect. The VW TDIs are still doing very well on resale value. Better than most. If you sell when fuel prices are high you will do even better. Knee jerk reaction to the price of fuel is amazing. It does seem that VWUSA is not as proactive as they should be. Still the Germans build wonderful vehicles to drive and own.
If I ever buy another vehicle it will probably be a German SUV with diesel. I get tired of the short 350 mile range with my Sequoia. I like the diesels from BMW, MB and VW. Right now the Touareg has a slight lead as I like the looks of it best. And its rugged off road abilities. The BMW X5 diesel is a rocket and handles like a sports car. The ML350 diesel is the most luxurious ride. With diesel prices high it makes negotiating a bit easier. You can also be confident the diesels will beat the EPA ratings without any difficulty. The VW Touareg should get 32 MPG on the highway cruising at 70 MPH. Giving it an easy 750-800 mile range. Plenty of time to find the best price on diesel fuel.
Another article
Yes (you can google for the latest information) The .gov agency responsible for opening and conducting the investigation, documents 160 complaints (on the HPFP issue, Robert Bosch Co., oem vendor) of app 97,272 diesel engines (09,10 MY) or an aggregate of .0016448 %.
While most repairs of the high pressure fuel pump issues have been covered under warranty, it can be gauling to think that a fair amount/% of those affected have NOT been covered so.
The "cookie cutter" model they are trying to follow would be similar to the HPFP issues BMW had with their gasser product line of FI. So, the HPFP issues is by no means specific to diesel or to VW for that matter.
NHTSA document
So is it safe to assume all 2011's built after 'what date?' have a non troublesome HPFP?
I am not sure. I would really not let it get in the way if I were in the market for a 2011 MY VW product.
I am sure Robert Bosch really needs/needed to put a lid on the HPFP issues. I have not done a goggle on how many OEMS they do work for.
but someone in Europe (Honda? isuzu?) that leads the pack in Diesel technology should be able to make a US complaint engine that is not A) a time bomb waiting to blow and
If Ford could put a small TD in the focus hatch, with a 6 speed stick, for not a huge $ premium, I would be all over it. That should be worth an easy 50 mpg on the hwy if done right, and still get great mileage around town.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I don't think there's any evidence that diesel passenger car engines last longer than gassers. (I can find you a few Liberty CRD posts that would make you wonder if it's the opposite!).
So for example, the 03 TDI was literally (my) 1/9000 units (4% of 225,000 of that 03 MY.
Surely there's some fleet operators out there that run gas and diesel SUVs that would have some cost/benefit numbers.
[edit - this could be a fun one - sort of the reverse of our thread too:
"The study finds that while gasoline engines account for only 5 percent of the medium-duty engines included in the study, owners of gasoline engines are more satisfied than are diesel engine owners, particularly in the areas of engine performance, engine quality, and cost of engine ownership."
Refrigerated Transport]
So for another example, the real competitor for the VW Jetta TDI is really the Toyota Camry Hybrid. As such, the Jetta TDI is cheaper (-3,000), gets better fuel mileage (11.7% better), gets better fuel mileage without as much attention to fuel miser tactics and is a BLAST more fun to drive.
Diesel is usually what? 40 to 50 cents more per gallon in the USA? I'm in Cda and here it is like the hit buying premium...about a dime per litre, but our gallon is 20% larger than yours. Regardless..
So say you pay 3./gal - factor in a 15% hit gets you to a 3.45/ gal of diesel. So do we agree the hit is about 15%?
Now take an average gas car getting 30 mpg. 30 x 15%=34.5. So with a diesel, anything better than 34.5 is a win win. And for climates that are cold, they simply blow away the numbers that hybrids end up delivering.
The heavier the vehicle, or the more work that is required of it, the more the figures side with the advantages of a diesel. It's simple really. Think about it, if gas was a superior fuel, big trucks, city buses, and even railroad engines would all burn gasoline instead of diesel.
Now to be fair, I want to acknowledge your concern of availability. Since diesels have up to twice the range and in some cases 3 times, the range of gas jobs, that gives you that many more opportunities to find diesel. Truck stops should be the first place you think of, and they are everywhere and many are open 24 hours a day. Imagine only having to stand in the rainy cold blowing wind once every 1000 miles instead of 2 or 2.5 times as often.
and conveniently, they both had a test weight (not curb, cars were much lighter in those days!) of ~2324#s.
fox did 0-60 in 11.5, and real world MPG of 26.5.
the Dasher did 0-60 in 19.5 but got MPG of 40.5. (by comparison, the gas Dasher was 13.2 0-60).
No idea if the disparity in MPG is still the same, but I know that the acceleration gap has closed a bunch (compare say a Jetta 2.5l and a Jetta TDI.
at the time, probably not VWs best idea to put the exact same 48HP diesel from the rabbit in the much bigger dasher. Now, a 1.8L or TD would have been much more interesting!
and all cars were slower back then. In the comparison chart to the Fox, a V-6 Citation X-11 did 0-60 in 9.5 (with a stick), and a Lancia Beta HPE took a leisurely 13.5 (also stick).
gotta figure if they could have dropped a 2009 Accent into 1979 in a comparison test, it would have destroyed all comers!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
If www.fueleconomy.gov is correct a 1.8T would need to fill @ 345 miles (12.6 gals) The TDI range is 77.9% greater.
Like I said this stuff can be looked @ in different ways and go on and on. So a hind sight look would be @ 154,000 miles /27.4+ 48.7 are fuel stops respectively 446 stops vs 251 stops.
I actually think that is a very good powertrain with the stick. Too bad you can't get it in the hatch.
I know at one point, the 3i was the highest MPG rated (gasser) car by CR. I think they even improved that engine recently.
seems like plenty of motor for a 3. the 2.3 (and especially now the 2.5) just seems like overkill.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.