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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We should just give California to Mexico

    Last I read they Latinos are about 50% of the population of CA. They believe the US stole CA from Mexico. Our courts are goofy enough to give it back. Then we would have lots of diesel choices sold in MX. Don't forget Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Nevada, AZ, Utah, NM and TX were all part of Mexico according to Spain. :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    We're getting rid of CA to rid ourselves of the endless problems, not to appease what remains of the Spanish empire :shades:
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Seems to be little talk these days about California succession from the union. (these here united states)
  • There's plenty of other reasons to prefer a gasser. Never a worry about finding a station, spilt fuel doesn't stink up your shoes or whatever else it gets on (haven't seen fueling gloves lately though), mechanics can be hard to find (even at the dealer), and the price differential makes up for some of the mileage advantage. RUG here is $3.25 and diesel is $3.44.

    To counter: I have NEVER had a problem finding a diesel pump either rural or urban in 8 years of driving a diesel car. It might have to do with all the diesel pickup trucks out there. Spilt fuel doesn't stink up your shoes? Have you been around gasoline so long you have forgotten the acrid smell if you get just a bit on your hands while fueling??? Diesel just smells different, but it certainly doesn't smell worse than a good whiff of gasoline. Diesel mechanics are also not difficult to find. They are everywhere. Do an internet search. As for cost, you point out that diesel in your area costs you nearly 6% more than RUG. I have two similar sized and equipped small cars, a gasser and a diesel. One gets 30 mpg, the other 50mpg.

    I think the main reason for not buying a diesel here in the US is that the choices are so limited. Unlike in Europe, here most people cannot find a diesel car that truly fits their individual needs and desires. Over the pond on the other hand, you find diesel models that are not only the most fuel efficient, but particular models may have the lowest emissions, or the most power, or the greatest range, plus being fun to drive and quiet. Over there diesels are available in every type of vehicle: SUV, CUV, small cars, luxury cars, sports cars, etc. I don't see the lack of availability here changing any time soon. So diesels will remain niche vehicles for some time to come.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2011
    Actually it is as simple as asking the question: who in their right minds would open a BUSINESS (manufacturing, for example) in CA ????

    We actually had one open. The US government (probably many other entities) granted a $535 M "stimulus", to open the business not far from the recently closed GM/Toyota NUMMI plant. The business is a solar panel manufacturing concern. Last I checked there is literally no short term hope (5 years) they will turn a profit. Amist much fanfare and after the President of (these here) UNITED States gave the business and manufacturing plant top billing, (not long after) IT had to lay off hundreds of people.

    Now the interesting thing is locally (literally next door) we can't even get solar panel permits, let alone economically source the solar panel products made literally less than 3 miles from here !!!! For all it economically matters, they could be in the Sahara Desert.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited January 2011
    we can't even get solar panel permits, let alone economically source the solar panel products made literally less than 3 miles from here !

    Same here in San Diego. A friend quit his job installing Solar. The red tape and high cost of permits has just about killed the industry in CA.

    Diesel THE BEST ALTERNATIVE ENERGY

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    When is CA going to have a rust belt-style exodus?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2011
    In very many ways, it has been ongoing for @ least 4 decades. It just has not been ... trumpeted (as if the environ cons wanted to trumpet how successful its (nitty gritty ) policies (at almost ALL levels) have been. Of late, the larger scale break downs simply are in plain sight.-impossible to ignore. Sure there has been "gold rush" type activities; i.e., Silicon Valley technology and bio technology, but those are really EXCEPTIONS to the iron clad rules.

    One glaring example is the agriculture industry. One beacon of light here has been the University of California @ Davis (GO AGGIES) . On some to many levels, the university and actually alumni was/were involved in taking CA wine from "rot gut" status to pinnacles previously unknown. To show the almost absolute DOMINANCE, one of the achievements has been a $2 dollar line of wine (aka 2 buck chuck) TASTE competitive with some of the most costly French wines, in blind taste tests and over a series of years !!!!!! Arguably CA agriculture is or was one of THE most prolific in the history of the earth.

    However,....Some of those communities have easily 20-30% UNEMPLOMENT (higher than the great DEPRESSION days of 24.5%. It actually would be much HIGHER ( my swag easily DOUBLE) if not for the so called "grey market migrant worker situation" (I really don't want to get political here) that pretty much the country has heard about.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2011
    Yes, in some ways there are literally too many diesel outlets for the number of DIESEL passenger cars. Don't say this in polite company. I selfishly really don't want it to change. I truly have never had to wait in LINE behind another D2 customer. That has been over 8 years and 173,000 miles. (SWAG 384+ fill ups) This has been local, county, state, 15 states and a foreign country.

    So to give a back drop, CA state has what 24 M passenger vehicles, I have read in passing. The US passenger vehicle fleet is (as of 2008) 257.4 M vehicles. IF CA conforms to statistics and also has less than one half of 1 percent diesel passenger cars, that number is app 120,000 D2 products? One further operational reality is I really do not need to fill for 500 to 700 miles.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    One further operational reality is I really do not need to fill for 500 to 700 miles.

    Next the the magnificent low RPM torque, the long range is my #2 reason for owning a diesel.

    PS
    You are right about unemployment in the CA agriculture zones. The Imperial Valley which is the Nations Salad bowl, has the consistent highest unemployment in the Nation.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2011
    Diesel just smells different, but it certainly doesn't smell worse than a good whiff of gasoline.

    I don't like getting gas on my hands or shoes either, but it seems more volatile, less "greasy" and the fumes do go away. Sometimes I'll have to wash my hands several times with Dawn to get rid of it.

    My (limited) experience with diesel is that the smell hangs around lots longer, and there are lots of internet hits that offer "extraordinary" solutions to get rid of the smell. (This eHow example is the first hit I got tonight).

    I believe the ratio of gas/diesel cars in the EU is just about 50/50. I wonder if diesel use would really be that high there if it wasn't subsidized and taxed less, unlike here where it's taxed more. (popularmechanics.com)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The UK pays more for diesel. About the same difference as here. I would expect the tax and spenders to tax by the btu on fuel. That would make diesel much higher priced. CA charges higher tax on diesel.

    UK prices for today:
    http://www.petrolprices.com/search.html?search=Shrewsbury%2C+Shropshire

    On the smell. CA does not mandate the fancy pump handles on diesel dispensers. The reason is diesel fumes are not cancer causing like RUG fumes. A whiff of unleaded gas and your dead or cutting your life shorter. The best is biodiesel, smells like french fries.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2011
    Give it time; one of these days they'll find out that biodiesel clogs your arteries when you pump it. :D
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So,.... do you want fries with that? ;)
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    You Said -- "one of these days they'll find out that biodiesel clogs your arteries when you pump it."

    I know you were being funny... but if you do some research on "biodiesel", you will find that it DOES tend to clog up fuel-injectors, fuel-pumps and also can leave a sticky residue in the combustion-chamber. (Depending on the source of the biodiesel... peanuts, corn, soybeans... etc)

    This is why most commercial diesel engine-makers warn against using any higher mixture than 10% (B10)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2011
    It also severely cuts down the useful life of OCI's. Bottom line I will NOT use even B5, if I can help it. VW which oem's the majority of diesel passenger cars was actually dragged kicking and screaming to certify B5. Indeed later owners manual (09 on up) say anything between B5 and above is STRICTLY PROHIBITED.

    Another thing is if regulators were really serious about biodiesel, they would support oems' making diesel engines that are actually certified to run up to B100.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Ruking, Good to see you back. How's that TDI treating you? Still in the Bay area? Keep us posted, not the same without ya,

    PS
    I am reading some issues with even good biodiesel mixes. I had high hopes for biodiesel.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    It is good to be back. The most remarkable thing about this TDI is how really unremarkable (steady eddie) it has been. Yes, still in the same area.

    Unfortunately, there are a lot of truths to what you are probably reading. Like you, I STILL hold out for much more of an alternative fuels share for biodiesel. I think one of the things that is so WRONG with it is that it is a MOST logical solution to the issues currently at ... issue for RUG to PUG !!!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The small engine and boat owners aren't happy either with ethanol in fuels either. It's corrosive enough to dissolve fiberglass fuel tanks I hear.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2011
    Not to mention the DECREASE in fuel mileage and totally unmitigated increase in emissions.

    More on topic I understand that E85 products have app 25% LESS fuel mileage that like RUG vehicles (some owners report -33%). So for example if a GM/FORD/Chysler (BIG)SUV gets an environmentally friendly 15 mpg, its E85 like model can get 11.25 mpg. They're HELPING !!!! http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/e85-vs-gasoline-comparison-test.html
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    What it would take for me to buy another diesel car is for VW to bring some new diesels to USA. For example.

    Apparently Passat TDI is on the way for 2012 - and with a manual transmission! Maybe we can hope for a Tiguan or an AWD TDI offering for 2013? ! :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2011
    I think truly the "Japanese" oems (it it really hard to see any Japanese AMERICAN company as really being Japanese; have been warned: keep your offerings RUG to PUG. the writing on the walls,....HYBRID. Recent events (i.e., what has happened to Toyota) can be a case studied bandied about, should they cross or NOT toe the line.

    I think this is really too bad in that the Japanese oems have been, do and will continue to sell D2 products on the world market. For whatever reasons, (I have read in passing) Honda is having a very hard time getting market share (gasser AND DIESEL) in Europe. They set a goal of 25% of their sales in Europe (for example) to be 25% diesels (notably the iCDI). There was much fan fare (2004) when Honda took a concept to market turbo diesel engine led by the engineer who developed their VTEC gasser engines. By all accounts it is an excellent turbo diesel product.

    I have also read in passing the Passat will most likely go the urea (BMW, MB) route.

    So far oems offering passenger vehicle D2 products are Audi, VW, BMW, MB. I purposely left off the commercial side.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "German automakers are already making progress eliminating some of the negative stereotypes held by American consumers, many of whom associate diesel with the slower, louder, smokier General Motors and VW diesels of the 1970s and '80s.

    As a result, automakers will sell about 545,000 diesel-powered light vehicles to North America in 2016, up from 167,000 in 2009, with fellow German automakers Volkswagen AG and BMW leading the way, Frost & Sullivan said in September."

    Mercedes Will Offer Diesel C-Class Sedan in U.S. Next Year (Green Car Advisor)

    image
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2011
    Right, I have read in passing that JD Powers is projecting 12% of the passenger car vehicle fleet being diesel in 2018. They did not detail the process at all.

    So this is a tad sketchy, but,... IF true, 545,000 diesel car SALES (projection) will be 1.817 M of (old news 2008, 1.272 M/254.7 M) or a SHADE or 2 over one half of 1 percent (.007059) IF there is ZERO real growth from 2008 to 2012 MY's.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2011
    2018 will be here before you know it. My link said 2014 was going to be the growth year for MB. It does sound a bit ambitious or exaggerated. You know if gas hits $4, the push for diesels will jump again, but I think hybrid demand will jump ten times as much for hybrids as diesels.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You know if gas hits $4, the push for diesels will jump again, but I think hybrid demand will jump ten times as much for hybrids as diesels.

    What is interesting to me is the Japanese are able to build a complex over priced hybrid, yet cannot build a diesel that can pass the EPA/CARB smog test. Example, we were supposed to have the Honda Accord diesel on our highways by 2008. Of course they cannot build a decent hybrid either.

    I don't think the hybrids will grow that much. The mileage comparison has become much closer with DI gas engines. I have not driven one so cannot say if it is worth a hoot on power. I know my son in law gets close to 40 MPG with his $12k Yaris. Though he would rather drive my daughters GMC PU truck.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    manual shift for the benz C diesel please ! oh yeah!!!!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am not certain that this is on topic, but I have read in passing the hybrid passenger (gasser) car fleet is app 2%. This is because of or in spite of a massive propaganda push of gasser hybrids. On the other hand it is a tad perplexing to me how JD Powers concluded a projection of 12% of the passenger fleet when diesel is still vilified and @ 2% over all with a shade or 2 over one half of 1 percent of the passenger car fleet. (wrongfully so but that is a very minority opinion.)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2011
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_vehicle

    This might be a better apples to apples comparison as the NHTSA registered passenger vehicle fleet is as of 2008, 257.492 M and 312,209 US(08) hybrids or .0012124 of the passenger vehicle fleet.

    Again for comparisons the passenger diesel car fleet is 1.272M or .0049399 shade under one half of 1 percent(which is a subset of less than 2% diesel (75% of which are so called light, but heavy trucks). This means that diesel passenger cars are 4 times more numerous.
  • ipsofactoipsofacto Member Posts: 2
    availability. I am a firm believer in the consumption and longevity. I would love to see some of these small SUV's in diesel. A marriage made in heaven.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    I agree, only I would love to see availability in most classes of cars, SUV's and trucks.

    Fiesta, Yaris and Fit would have a 3 or 4 cylinder 1100cc to 1300cc
    Civic, Optima and Focus, a 1.6 to 1.8 litre
    Accord, Malibu and Fusion, a 2 to 2.2 litre
    Large cars, and most compact to full-sized 1/2 ton trucks and CRV, Escape to Grand Cherokee sized SUV's, a 2.5 to 3 litre
    Large, heavy SUV's like Sequoia's and Expedition's, Yukon's could use a 3 to 4.5 litre
    And of course, 3 to 7 litre for the heavier larger trucks.

    And unlike hybrids, would deliver their EPA ratings and better, throughout the nation, including freezing states and provinces.

    All turbos of course.

    And with manual transmission options right across the board in every trim level you desire. And don't make me choose a sunroof when all I really want are heated power seats and a heated steering wheel. And I am perfectly capable of dimming my own rear view mirror thank you very much.

    A guy can dream I guess..
  • zambaqzambaq Member Posts: 14
    What would it take? Nothing at all -- I bought one about a year and a half ago, and as a neophyte dieseler, I've thoroughly enjoyed the experience of driving it. The satisfaction of ownership has waned a bit, however, mainly because I've been spending far too much time on forums such as this one. What I bought (and now have come to think I should have leased instead) was an '09 Jetta TDI. I'd planned to keep it till the day I died (since everyone agrees that a TDI ought to be immortal!), but now I'm not so sure.

    What has me thinking that I should let go of that notion is Volkswagen's inability to remedy (or even own up to) an apparent design flaw in its new, high-tech, and highly-praised, common rail turbocharged engine. The flaw becomes manifest when the high pressure fuel pump fails. The pump feeds fuel to the injectors via the "common" rail, so if it stops working, then naturally the engine does, too. If that were all that happened, there would be no story here. Unfortunately, in an alarming number of well-documented instances, such failures have required replacement of the entire fuel system, from tank to injectors and back again. This is because when the pump fails, it doesn't simply stop working -- it literally self-destructs, and many of its bits and shards are sent flying throughout the system, contaminating and ruining everything else on down the line. The cost of repair and replacement is staggering -- $6-$10K according to owners -- and even though most of the cars involved have been under VW's original warranty, the company has often reportedly refused to pay, citing contaminated fuel as the cause. (Even if true, and water or gasoline in the fuel is the culprit, the fact that pump failure leads to such calamitous consequences suggests that there must be a flaw in the engineering and/or overall design of the fuel system. And don't a lot of those pickup trucks I see on the roads run on the same fuel?)

    Though nobody knows precisely how many "catastrophic" HPFP failures have occurred (except perhaps the folks at corporate VW, and they're not talking!), only a small percentage of the new 2.0 TDI engines appear to have suffered this breakdown so far. Then again, most of the afflicted engines were relatively young; even the oldest ones in service here today didn't hit the road until late 2008! What concerns me most is the trajectory the problem will take as these engines (and their HPFPs) age and go out of warranty. Will the failure rate remain relatively flat, or will it shoot up significantly? Volkswagen's current game plan -- of denial, evasion and avoidance of responsibility -- isn't calculated to win my trust or allay my fears. Unless the company can come up with a real solution that can be implemented effectively or, as a stop-gap, grant owners a solid extension of their power train warranty, I'm afraid I'll be forced to give up my sweet ride. And if I get to that point, I'm also afraid that VW will have witlessly squashed the nascent diesel renaissance it sought to promote. Shame, shame, shahame!!!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    That's why I have consistently stated over the years that for diesel cars to really take off in the USA,

    OTHER MANUFACTURERS BESIDES VW

    have to supply us with usable, impressive diesel sedans.

    Manufacturers like Honda, Toyota, Ford, Mitsu, and Hyundai need good, solid, affordable 5-passenger diesel sedans in their US lineup.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Interesting post (in a discouraging way). It sucks that VW is trying to shirk responsibility by blaming an obvious design flaw (I agree) on dirty fuel. Greed rules the world and we are reminded of this it seems every day we wake up.

    Is this only on the 2.0 TDI which they call Clean Diesels? In Cda, 06 was the last year for the 1.9 TDI. We had no TDI's for 07 and 08. Then out comes the 2.0.

    This story also reminds me of how attempts to pad the profit margin on the customer's dime, have been made many years ago. Remember when they first made the TDI? What, late 90's? Well I was in a repair shop one day and they were working on the valve train of a TDI conveniently just out of wty. On the old 1.6 turbos, the timing gear on the camshaft was welded in place. Well when they changed to the TDI's, they started press-fitting that gear. Which brings us to this customer's problem on his car. The press-fit has started to loosen and the gear had started to wobble. Over time it finally failed which, of course, landed him at the garage. The the point here is pretty obvious. Manufacturers seem to be incessantly try to improve their profit margin as much as they can, by constantly testing the boundaries of what they feel they can get away with. As they give us new and improved zoom, they also have to make sure not too much time goes by before they get to sell you the replacement. It's all very strategic, and morality is not usually part of the equation, unless we are talking about the lack of it.

    All that said, I am certain that is why some customers lease, even though they know it costs them more to lease than buying and holding. Maybe the trick is to buy, but always deal under wty. Of course that doesn't hep you if the mfgr tries to shirk their responsibility.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I should have leased instead) was an '09 Jetta TDI.

    If you can write it off to a business that is probably the best way to go. The other is a 7 year 100k mile bumper to bumper warranty from VW. Then sell while the warranty is still in affect. The VW TDIs are still doing very well on resale value. Better than most. If you sell when fuel prices are high you will do even better. Knee jerk reaction to the price of fuel is amazing. It does seem that VWUSA is not as proactive as they should be. Still the Germans build wonderful vehicles to drive and own.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Another way to keep VW honest is to use their service at designated intervals. That makes it harder to squeeze out of their warranty. I found my local VW dealer to be quite reasonable on service. MUCH more so than my Toyota dealer. Last I heard from the people I sold my 05 Passat PD Wagon to they had made several cross country trips and averaging 40 MPG on the highway. No major problems and still loving the car.

    If I ever buy another vehicle it will probably be a German SUV with diesel. I get tired of the short 350 mile range with my Sequoia. I like the diesels from BMW, MB and VW. Right now the Touareg has a slight lead as I like the looks of it best. And its rugged off road abilities. The BMW X5 diesel is a rocket and handles like a sports car. The ML350 diesel is the most luxurious ride. With diesel prices high it makes negotiating a bit easier. You can also be confident the diesels will beat the EPA ratings without any difficulty. The VW Touareg should get 32 MPG on the highway cruising at 70 MPH. Giving it an easy 750-800 mile range. Plenty of time to find the best price on diesel fuel.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2011
    Volkswagens Under U.S. Review for Fuel-Pump Flaws

    Another article

    Yes (you can google for the latest information) The .gov agency responsible for opening and conducting the investigation, documents 160 complaints (on the HPFP issue, Robert Bosch Co., oem vendor) of app 97,272 diesel engines (09,10 MY) or an aggregate of .0016448 %.

    While most repairs of the high pressure fuel pump issues have been covered under warranty, it can be gauling to think that a fair amount/% of those affected have NOT been covered so.

    The "cookie cutter" model they are trying to follow would be similar to the HPFP issues BMW had with their gasser product line of FI. So, the HPFP issues is by no means specific to diesel or to VW for that matter.

    NHTSA document
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    The page loads, then disappears after only 2 seconds. Is it my browser you think?

    So is it safe to assume all 2011's built after 'what date?' have a non troublesome HPFP?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2011
    I click on all three links after losing access to editing and it seems to be normal/normal. NONE require subscription or passwords to access.

    I am not sure. I would really not let it get in the way if I were in the market for a 2011 MY VW product.

    I am sure Robert Bosch really needs/needed to put a lid on the HPFP issues. I have not done a goggle on how many OEMS they do work for.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,348
    seems like they plenty of diesels running around in Europe for many years without self destructing like that. Quite possibly though the extra complexity of meeting the US regs (leading to the urea needs, HPFPs, etc.) is what is causing the issues in the US.

    but someone in Europe (Honda? isuzu?) that leads the pack in Diesel technology should be able to make a US complaint engine that is not A) a time bomb waiting to blow and B) does not cost more than the car to repair if something simple like a fuel pump fails!

    If Ford could put a small TD in the focus hatch, with a 6 speed stick, for not a huge $ premium, I would be all over it. That should be worth an easy 50 mpg on the hwy if done right, and still get great mileage around town.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I am a firm believer in the consumption and longevity.

    I don't think there's any evidence that diesel passenger car engines last longer than gassers. (I can find you a few Liberty CRD posts that would make you wonder if it's the opposite!).
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2011
    Purely from a statistical point of view, it is hard to have any real (longitudinal) US data. Diesel cars are fully 1.272 M in a gasser vehicle fleet of 257.4 M (2008 NHTSA statistics registered vehicles) or ( .0049417, a shade) less than one half of 1 percent.

    So for example, the 03 TDI was literally (my) 1/9000 units (4% of 225,000 of that 03 MY.
  • 4mercoachrick4mercoachrick Member Posts: 133
    Even if the things were somehow MORE attractive, the numbers aren't easy to crunch. During the last shortage/gouging in the southwest to southeast US, diesel was running a full dollar a gallon MORE than gasoline AND much harder to find. Here in central Texas, it is still running a solid 20% higher than gas($3.60 vs $3.00). I suppose if I had to drive a substantial work vehicle, diesel might be more attractive; but, I wouldn't even look at one for our XC60 or C70. Just sayin'.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2011
    It doesn't take huge sample to get meaningful statistical results though, does it?

    Surely there's some fleet operators out there that run gas and diesel SUVs that would have some cost/benefit numbers.

    [edit - this could be a fun one - sort of the reverse of our thread too:

    "The study finds that while gasoline engines account for only 5 percent of the medium-duty engines included in the study, owners of gasoline engines are more satisfied than are diesel engine owners, particularly in the areas of engine performance, engine quality, and cost of engine ownership."
    Refrigerated Transport]
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2011
    Actually they are fairly easy TO crunch. Basically one can do it any number of ways, but like for like really points to 20,000+ miles per year as being cost effective.

    So for another example, the real competitor for the VW Jetta TDI is really the Toyota Camry Hybrid. As such, the Jetta TDI is cheaper (-3,000), gets better fuel mileage (11.7% better), gets better fuel mileage without as much attention to fuel miser tactics and is a BLAST more fun to drive.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    I don't think you are being fair or accurate with the math.
    Diesel is usually what? 40 to 50 cents more per gallon in the USA? I'm in Cda and here it is like the hit buying premium...about a dime per litre, but our gallon is 20% larger than yours. Regardless..
    So say you pay 3./gal - factor in a 15% hit gets you to a 3.45/ gal of diesel. So do we agree the hit is about 15%?

    Now take an average gas car getting 30 mpg. 30 x 15%=34.5. So with a diesel, anything better than 34.5 is a win win. And for climates that are cold, they simply blow away the numbers that hybrids end up delivering.

    The heavier the vehicle, or the more work that is required of it, the more the figures side with the advantages of a diesel. It's simple really. Think about it, if gas was a superior fuel, big trucks, city buses, and even railroad engines would all burn gasoline instead of diesel.

    Now to be fair, I want to acknowledge your concern of availability. Since diesels have up to twice the range and in some cases 3 times, the range of gas jobs, that gives you that many more opportunities to find diesel. Truck stops should be the first place you think of, and they are everywhere and many are open 24 hours a day. Imagine only having to stand in the rainy cold blowing wind once every 1000 miles instead of 2 or 2.5 times as often.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,348
    happened to have a few old car magazines handy (saved a few when my parents were cleaning out their basement). A 1979 issue of car & driver happened to test an Audi 4000 (fox replacement) and a VW Dasher diesel. Same basic platform I believe.

    and conveniently, they both had a test weight (not curb, cars were much lighter in those days!) of ~2324#s.

    fox did 0-60 in 11.5, and real world MPG of 26.5.
    the Dasher did 0-60 in 19.5 but got MPG of 40.5. (by comparison, the gas Dasher was 13.2 0-60).

    No idea if the disparity in MPG is still the same, but I know that the acceleration gap has closed a bunch (compare say a Jetta 2.5l and a Jetta TDI.

    at the time, probably not VWs best idea to put the exact same 48HP diesel from the rabbit in the much bigger dasher. Now, a 1.8L or TD would have been much more interesting!

    and all cars were slower back then. In the comparison chart to the Fox, a V-6 Citation X-11 did 0-60 in 9.5 (with a stick), and a Lancia Beta HPE took a leisurely 13.5 (also stick).

    gotta figure if they could have dropped a 2009 Accent into 1979 in a comparison test, it would have destroyed all comers!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited February 2011
    On a 14.5 gal tank, I really like filling between 500-700 miles. (I would actually like even more miles between fill ups, but I can dream on) Just a recent snapshot, I filled @ 614 miles 12.6 gals.

    If www.fueleconomy.gov is correct a 1.8T would need to fill @ 345 miles (12.6 gals) The TDI range is 77.9% greater.

    Like I said this stuff can be looked @ in different ways and go on and on. So a hind sight look would be @ 154,000 miles /27.4+ 48.7 are fuel stops respectively 446 stops vs 251 stops.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I actually purchased a new 1981 Audi 4000 4M 5-Speed back in the day, and geez that car was slow, especially when the A/C compressor would kick in. There was a little button under the accelerator pedal that kicked off the A/C compressor when you pressed the pedal all of the way to the floor. Even with the disengage switch that car had what can best described as leisurely acceleration. Compared to my current Mazda3 I Touring (the nicely kitted out version with the 2.0 liter engine), there isn’t a single performance metric where the Audi would even come close to the Mazda.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,348
    so, you have a 3 now? Did not know that.

    I actually think that is a very good powertrain with the stick. Too bad you can't get it in the hatch.

    I know at one point, the 3i was the highest MPG rated (gasser) car by CR. I think they even improved that engine recently.

    seems like plenty of motor for a 3. the 2.3 (and especially now the 2.5) just seems like overkill.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

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