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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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I fully agree 335d is not the best choice to re-introduce diesels in the USA market on the basis of economy. 330d, 530d items are excellent in terms of balancing consume and performance; more economic but very useful 116d, 118d, 120d, 123d are selling themselves nicely here in Spain even in current crisis time.
But the 335d is just a marvel fusion of a differently bestial engine in a classic 3 Series platform; try it with sport package. It deserves the test just for the experience. "...
All tolled I have app 4 hours test driving the BMW 335D ! The computer calculations put the MPG figures at app 33 mpg, despite the inevitable demo "hammering". I woud dare say this "demo" mpg is better than a lot of so called economy cars. But for someone who buys this, it is more like icing on the cake. The BMW 335 D is SERIOUSLY fun to drive !! My take is longer distance touring is its forte.
In Alberta,Canada nobody gives a S**T about fuel economy except us VW Freaks!
Indeed
Regards,
Jose
By Chris Walton, Chief Road Test Editor Email
Date posted: 02-08-2009
link title
Well, this forum is "What would it take for YOU to buy a diesel car?" My answer is that further watering down our gasoline would do it for me. Must we endure lowered fuel economy, damaged fuel systems, ruined outboard motors so some politically connected ethanol industry can enjoy enormous taxpayer subsidies? In my region - Chesapeake Bay, the corn production for ethanol requires more fertilizer use and pollution of the Bay. Nitrogen pollution is a serious problem here.
Now come on VW put a diesel in the Tiguan, Subaru bring over the boxer diesel for the Outback. I had to sell my last diesel car - a 92 Jetta because 50hp was just not enough to get on the highway. But with bad gas getting worse, I will not buy a gas car.
But yet, they don't want to R & D and develop algae as a bio fuel hydroponically ??? Got a garbage dump? Got a sewer treatment plant? All verboten !!?? Again it EATS C02 and produces OXYGEN in the process of the production of bio diesel !!!! In addition they want to make the use of diesel and bio diesel ROCKET Science when it is CLEARLY NOT, so it abnormally increases the costs and technology !!!!
Apparently, this issue is under discussion by Congress. NOW I feel so much better...
The article states that "the Obama administration appears to be leaning toward lifting the ethanol ceiling slightly, perhaps to 12%, while research on higher concentrations is done."
And I'm off to the TDI forums...
So far during the "winter blend" RUG we have experienced a consistent MINIMUM -5.2% loss on a Civic. So if we factor in the RANGE that we normally get (sans winter blend) the RANGE of loss is -5.2 % % to 14.2%. They say its better to get LESS mpg and emit more C02 !!!??? Sometimes they say things they REALLY MEAN !!! :lemon:
So we stay on topic and don't draw the host/s ire, on the other hand... D2 has been consistently BETTER (than itself- it has ALWAYS been better than the gasser) given the same commute conditions. NON commute conditions I normally get 48/49 mpg. It has been a consistent 50/51 mpg. This is from 4.2 to 6.25% BETTER !!!!! The delta between the two (RUG and D2) being 9.4 to 20.45% !!???
So we dont get too carried away The D2 gets 44.4% BETTER RUG fuel mileage than one of the USA's best economy cars: Honda Civic. !!!! Coincidently it is 43% per mile driven CHEAPER !!!
The lightbulb has gone off over my head & diesel is my future (again, now that Jetta is no longer 50hp...)
1. ethanol is EXTREMELY corrosive to the systems not specified to handle 100 % ethanol, which NONE ARE !!! (except those specifically designed for E85) They tinker with 10% (as it is STILL HIGHLY corrosive) , but statistically it is harder at say 100,000-120,000 miles (statistically the mileage the average driver keeps most cars) to say definitively, breakdowns are caused by ethanol (10%) !!! Most will assume it is just normal wear and tear. :lemon: :mad:
2. Since you are acquainted with past diesels yes 236 # ft of torque is probably a HUGE boost in comparison. (with 140 hp)
I cannot emphasize enough. Highway driving pleasure is a direct result of low RPM torque only offered with diesel engines. No high RPM screaming gas burning 4 bangers for this kid.
"Give me diesel or give me death". :shades:
Here's an interesting tidbit I picked up the other day online:
http://www.hemp.com/default.aspx?002,25
Interesting article I found on biodiesel. Hemp produces more oil per acre than most other options. And it competes well for ethanol per acre as well versus corn. But requires little or no fertilizer. And it requires no pesticides. And guess which industry makes both of those - right - the petrochemical firms.
Ethanol might not be the best option, but Corn, which is fickle(needs rain at specific times)and needs pesticides and fertilizer and intensive farming methods certainly isn't the way to do it.
http://hemp-ethanol.blogspot.com/2008/01/economics-history-and-politics-of-hemp.- html
It's the growing, drying, storing, and so on that causes corn to be a larger burden overall. Hemp is pretty much a "plant and forget" crop that's ready to be converted into ethanol as soon as its cut down. Just harvest any way you want(think clear-cutting/mowing a field versus corn which takes more time since it's in rows). Toss the whole plant in a mulcher and haul it off to the processing plant. No silos, no buying seed every year...Just tearing up and harvesting the plants will shake enough seeds off.
Hemp also needs half the water of rice and cotton to grow. A big plus for the U.S., which is turning into desert thanks to bad farming practices and bad weather patterns. I have relatives who are farmers and grow corn. They say that they'll be lucky to be able to grow it in another 20 years due to not getting enough rain.
Canada is now growing hemp for paper and other uses and it's going to take them a very short time(year or two, tops), to start growing it for biodiesel and ethanol. The U.S. is once again going to be a day late and a dollar short to the game.
gagrice: with its mountains of torque, the new diesel 335i is said to be the fastest in the whole 3-series line, it even has more torque than the M3. Would that they would bring over the 4-cylinder diesel I saw described in an article over the weekend - it would still have more torque than the 6-cylinder gas 328i, and would make 40 mpg in normal running. It would be perfect for the 1-series coupe. Indeed, they have a plenty-fast 123d available in Europe. :-(
BMW apparently stated they couldn't afford to federalize and certify more than one diesel for the U.S., so the big 6-cylinder diesel ws it, because they needed it to be shared with the X5.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Right, that knowledge was really the basis for my post. But yes, it is good background information/knowledge all around. (if that was not a 2x4 to the middle of the head) . Further, when they first started to put E10 on the market, there were a HUGE number of immediate to short term failures. My own personal one, at the time was up to 20% less fuel mileage.
RUG = $1.999
PUG = $2.199
Diesel = $2.699
I have always exceeded EPA mileage estimates in every vehicle I have owned, before and after E10 came to be a way of life at the pump. Never noticed a drop when they started "oxygenating". Perhaps it's just because I am in a relatively warm climate. Or maybe here in California they were always oxygenating, and it's only the switch to E10 for that purpose that is recent?
Diesel in my area continues to be $0.40 above regular unleaded, just like the other poster mentioned.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
How does it applies to diesel?...While I do know, I don't even profess to be able to explain it technically. Even if I did, most folks eyes would just glaze over. But we do know ULSD (15 to 9 ppm) has less sulfur than RUG to PUG (30 ppm) and by a LOT. Indeed RUG to PUG is 2x -3.33 x WORSE.
So for example there was CA D2 LSD (160 ppm), 49 state D2 LSD (500 ppm) pre 2006, Now (post Oct 2006) there is ULSD and unseen is the different cetane ratings 40-52 cetane between brands and the law (42 cetane) . I further buy on price and situationally, meaning usually on price and sometimes brand... Upshot: it is hard to tell a CONSISTENT difference from an mpg point of view. So for example in No CA the best cetanes are 1. Chevron 2. Shell 3. BP 3. Arco (but is almost non commonly available in CA!?? ) 4. others
Cetane numbers are not common knowledge as octane levels are.
Before LSD 48-52, after ULSD 48-52 mpg
Corner store (Nor CAL)
RUG $2.09
PUG $2.29
D2 $ 2.01
So for example, apples to oranges comparo: Civc 36 mpg vs TDI 50 mpg the Civic costs 44% more per mile driven. Both are "economy" cars.
Since I do not have a like model Jetta TDI 50/27/27 mpg's. You don't even need to punch the calculator to know that RUG to PUG is WAY more !
Precisely, and this is why we don't get the really useful (smaller, highly economical) diesels over here.
Thanks you Uncle Sam (& CARB) ever so much. :mad:
They said they expect a take rate of 2% or something like that (it will carry a price premium approaching $4000, from what I understand). Americans don't buy diesels, hence none of the European carmakers send them over here....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
116d
122 hp, 260 lb/foot, in-line 4 cyl, combined 53,5 USA mpg, Efficient Dynamics, Brake Regeneration, etc., as in the brochure that can be downloaded from here and from curiosity.
brochure
Here is a link to bmw.uk for more information on diesel Series 1:
Series 1
Regards,
Jose
VW seems to be doing pretty well with the diesel Jetta in this horrible market. The salesman I talked to cannot keep the Sportwagen TDI in stock. I can see why. It is the most vehicle for the money going right now. Lots of room, comfort, handling and great mileage. The dealer was out of the Jetta sedan TDI so no test drive. I am hoping the Tiguan gets that same engine soon. I could live with that size if there was the chance to get close to 40 MPG on the highway.
The Diesel BMW & Mercedes are not getting much discount here compared to most vehicle sales. I just cannot bring myself to going with the urea injection. I think that was a big mistake. I am with roland on that issue. The BMW X5 diesel is overkill in my book. I would have been happy with about 1/3rd less torque and a 1/3rd more MPG.
Send US the X3 with that engine and I am a happy camper.
Can you cite some source for this info?
Also, the discussion in the news is about lifting the ceiling from 10% to 15% to further bail out the ethanol industry by giving them more market. Its being discussed by Congress and the new Administration is considering a 12% ceiling until the 15% can be "studied".
87 - $1.779
89 - $1.879
91 - $1.959
93 - $1.979
diesel - $2.039
So it's getting closer. Without much hard work, I can find diesel for $1.959-1.999
kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
I am personally/professionally more interested in the active safety systems, passive safety systems, and crash reconstruction as far as the courses SAE offers, but I feel like all the cool kids are doing Diesel right now.
Alernativly... here is my favorite place to fuel up
Jetta is VW's most popular model in the States, and yet they trickle the TDIs here in ones or twos - the diesels are a TINY percentage of the total sales of Jettas. Why do you suppose they do that??!! It's no accident. Americans may buy diesels, but they don't buy very many of them. :-)
C&D this month has a little sidebar on page 52 in the 335d article entitled "The Diesel (Dis)Advantage, and at the bottom it has a summary called "Miles to Break Even with 335d"
Answer: 960,000 to break even with the gas 328i, and 193,333 to break even with the gas 335i.
But then, the 335d is fully $10K more to buy when comparing with the 328i, and even $4000 more than the 335i. And the Jetta TDI is like $5000 more than the base model Jetta, right?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Would I buy the BMW 335D. NO! Then I would not buy any BMW car. I think that BMW made a big mistake not bringing one of their 4 cylinder diesel cars. Performance car people like to hear the scream of the engine at 6000 RPM. For anyone so unfortunate as to live in a city the 335D is total overkill. It is a premium highway cruiser. The X5 diesel had a lot more power than I need. It would blow the socks off of my Sequoia V8 which is fast enough. Just lacks the torque on the long uphill stretches to stay in 5th gear. The X5 diesel is slightly less money than the V8 version which it favorably compares to. So that vehicle for someone that likes to drive one of the best handling SUVs in the World, is a no brainer. The V6 gas X5 will NOT keep up with the diesel. So if you got $50k to buy an SUV you could do worse.
(I wish I could do 277 % per year (even in this depression market) !?)
I am not sure where I read this in passing, but VW intends to bring 40% diesels of their 2010 production (not sure if it is ALL or just the Jetta) to the USA market. Again I read in passing, the 2009 TDI goal was 25% of the Jetta's line. (confusing for sure) The problem as it has always been for diesels in the US market is getting the multiple bureaucratic approvals !!??
The IRS tax code seems to back this up, since they list 60,000 TDI vehicles as the tax credit cut off for the specfic model year 2009 VW TDI's. So if you divide that by say 225,000-250,000 projected yearly production units, that is 24-27% diesels. I
As for the implication you appear to be drawing, VW has historically been a low % player in the US market good year sales of 16.5 M . At the time 03 MY it was like 1.4 % . I read in passing, in 2009 VW being a whopping 2.1%. This is of course on a 40% DECREASE in yearly auto sales (10.5 M ) !!! So while 2.1 % IS greater than 1.4%, it is really a TREMENDOUS step backward. RELATIVELY it is of course marked as a gain. So indeed, you can say they "trickle" ALL their (mostly GASSER) models into the market and your diesel premise is blown, or perhaps it is better to say is consistent for their WHOLE (mostly gasser) line. However 60,000 vs 9,000 2009/2003) is app 6.7 X GREATER, so percentage wise you can hardly call that "trickle".
I am getting anxious enough to jump on one of the Sportwagen TDIs. I don't want to be dependent on RUG if they follow through on the ethanol bailout forcing US to use more of that crap. They have an ulterior motive. If it is detrimental to the engine it will send cars to the scrap heap quicker forcing US to buy new ones. I may be giving our politicians too much credit for having a brain.
PS
My 2005 Passat Wagon TDI was priced just $200 over the 1.8T engine and less than the V6 which it competed with out on the road.
2. I was never trying to put down the TDIs or suggest that VW sales are suppressed by poor product. What I AM saying is that VW intentionally limits the number of TDIs coming into the U.S. to keep demand and prices high. They know the market won't support much more than 5% of Jettas being diesels. For a volume product like Jetta, 5% is a pretty low proportion.
3. I also regret that BMW is not bringing over their 4-cylinder diesel, which would be more than enough for 1- and 3-series models. As for the X5, well who cares is my first thought. If you have got more than $50K to blow on an oversized wagon, you probably don't care much about the price of fuel, or anything for that matter, and you will likely be opting for the V-8 anyway...
4. I will wait to see the evidence with my own two eyes of VW making FORTY PERCENT of its Jetta mix diesels. Perhaps they will do so, but that would mean shifting away from the cheapest models in the middle of a recession, not a formula for success.
5. Believe it or not, I would go diesel before I would go hybrid, for a couple of different reasons. But for now small gassers offer comparable fuel economy for half the purchase price, and diesels for me have the same problem hybrids do - the cheapest ones are still way more expensive than small gas-powered cars, and don't do all that much better for mileage either. (my lifetime average in the Echo is at 42 mpg - bring me a diesel Yaris/Fit/Fiesta/Polo, which I'm sure would do better than 60 mpg, with a $2000 price premium over the gas model, and I will be first in line to buy).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Neither of us were even close to meaning or implying you were saying "poor product.". We knew what you HAVE said. Again the 4% diesel was the 2003 MY.. They basically sold out the entire TDI MY. The 2009 MY diesel is on track to sell 25%. Again that would be easy to control. Have they hit their numbers yet? My swag NO !! Again the numbers (60,000) trailing indicator is on the IRS.gov web site. (updates to the tax credit cut off)
Yes 40% in 2010 (100k on 250,000 production @my SWAG) , even to my point of view is ambitious given the current conditions.
I don't want to make a long explanation, but the 2009 TDI is qualitatively and quantitatively better than the 2003 !! ( much as I like it, have been satisfied, etc. etc.) I can talk to 114,000 miles on the 2003, but see me in another 7 or so years for the 411 on the 2009 VW TDI. Adjusted for inflation price of the 2009 is on par with the 2003 MY !!?? So while credit should be given to VW, I mean... who really cares, that is not an owner? :lemon:
This is my .02 cent take, but run that Echo for as long as you possibly can !!!
I have targeted 450,000 miles for a Civic !!! However we don't run that "fuel guzzler"
back on topic:
I'd like the Mini Cooper Clubman D to be available in the states. I'd replace my TCH with that little diesel car, providing I could get a smoking deal.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Chevrolet is missing the boat.............. "
I think a new"DURAMAX" engine (new Cummins engine competitor) would TOTALLY re energize the SUV (Tahoe) segment. Of course the "2 cans of sardines into one can" advocates might not want this to happen. Or unless the GM product happened to be imported from... overseas.
btw, are you aware that the 04/05 passat TDI models such as yours are "all" suffering from oil-pump-shaft failure that results in engine ceasing and/or seizing between 50k & 100k, minimum $2K to fix, if fixable at all after catastrophic failure?
(Apparently replacing that stuff in advance for similar $ is a maintenance requirement on this car, but VW didn't tell anyone about it?)
This sort of scenario makes me wonder what VW didn't tell me about my 06 TDI.
Audi has just launched a new allroad variant of the A4 Avant wagon in Europe that applies the Subaru Outback approach to the German premium wagon. Like the A6 allroad that was launched some years ago, the A4 adds wheel flares and increased ride height for the psuedo-SUV look and 7.09 inches of ground clearance allowing you leap tall pebbles in a single bound. In spite of that increased frontal area and aerodynamic drag, the A4 still manages to post some pretty impressive mileage when equipped with the 170 hp 2.0L TDI diesel. The four cylinder diesel pushes the A4 allroad to 62 mph in 8.9 seconds and gets combined 36.75 mpg (U.S.) on the Euro combined drive cycle. This engine is a higher output variant of the engine in the VW Jetta TDI.
The ground clearance would be the biggest plus for me. We have lots of 6 inch potholes that will destroy the under carriage of most low sedans. That and the ease of entry and exit. And I like going out to the desert back trails during the winter.
Except for Europeans, Vehicle Manufacturers Ditch Diesel Plans (AutoObserver)
"Diesels such as Ford's 65 mpg Fiesta ECOnetic aren't seen as marketable in the U.S."
Economic Meltdown May Be Doom of Diesel Passenger Vehicle Plans in U.S (Green Car Advisor)
The price differential here between diesel and premium is .02. Between diesel and RUG it's about .24 cents ($1.85 for regular most places; $2.09 for diesel).
Diesel is same or less than RUG in San Diego. Several ARCO stations are selling BP ULSD at 1.99 and RUG at 2.09