What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

bpeebles

You are not suggesting that diesel engines stink do you?

Personally, I like the odor of the diesel-exhaust. It is essentually the same as jet-fuel and I have always liked that too.

When one burns the INTENDED fuel for a diesel engine (peanut oil), the odor is almost irrisistable. The smell of bio-fuel exhaust is equally nice. (Think popcorn!)

I do have to agree with you that the smell of the raw (unburned) diesel fuel can be intense and hard to wash off your hands or shoes if it spills.

gagrice

Nothing like the smell of french fries when you start up your diesel in the morning. Beats the heck out of that nasty smelling gasoline. Wonder is biodiesel made from algae smells like an ocean breeze????

bigmclargehuge

Clean diesels? No, not really.

If you're talking about a diesel bus that burns 10x as much fuel (literally) as a diesel Jetta and has no filters whatsoever, then sure.

Yeah, busses stink. But they'd be twice as bad if they were gasoline-powered and unfiltered.

Even though modern diesels like the Jetta pump out something closer to steam, I'd much rather drive behind a diesel car, or even a bus without catalysts and filters than a gasoline-powered car without any emissions equipment.

Unfiltered petrol smoke stings my olfactory senses somethin' fierce!

ruking1

Indeed it is the pot calling the kettle black. RUG to PUG by law is 30 ppm sulfur. ULSD is typically 15-9 ppm !!! That ocean breeze algae bio diesel is literally close to ZERO, if not ZERO ppm. So whose the dirtier now and by what magnitude????

How much more would it take cents per gal for RUG to PUG to match ULSD?

How much more cents per gal for RUG to PUG to match 9 ppm to ZERO?

ruking1

I would agree. Actually Gagrice's past posts talked about that. 2 regulatory changes that changed emissions:

1. 1970's the going from LEADED regular to Premium now 30 ppm

2. the much later on 2006/2007 going to ULSD now 15-9 ppm

bpeebles

"1. 1970's the going from LEADED regular to Premium now 30 ppm
2. the much later on 2006/2007 going to ULSD now 15-9 ppm "

Do not forget that back in the pre- 70's, they were ADDING lead to the gasoline to lubricate/cool the exhaust-valves in the engines.
All the refineries had to do was STOP ADDING the lead.

As for the change to ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfer Diesel), this was altogether different... the refieries had to incorperate expensive retooling to REMOVE the sulfer. Infact.... EVERY pipeline, truck and railcar which used to contain LSD (Low Sulfer Diesel) had to be essentually scrubbed clean of sulfer. Otherwise, the residue would contaminate the ULSD. They also had to put additives into the ULSD to compensate for the lubrication-qualities which were lost during the sulfer-removal processing. THE SWITCH TO ULSD WAS A HUGE UNDERTAKING!

In the end, we (USA) now has diesel fuel which is still not up to the same standards as European Diesel fuel.... but Diesel-power is now the very best way to motivate a road-vehicle. Nothing else has the power/weight content of diesel fuel.

...except mabie nuclear-power - but that technology is still years away so I have setteled for diesel.

gagrice

Good explanation on the cost factor with producing ULSD. I don't know how they sell it as cheap as they do. It is the fuel of choice for most of industry and the airlines. I just wish they would offer more diesel choices in the USA.

plekto

And peanut or vegetable oil is... Gosh - guess what percentage Sulfur?

:P

ruking1

Rudolf Diesel
Designed diesel engine in
1894 to run on peanut oil
“The use of vegetable oils for
engine fuels may seem
insignificant today. But such
oils may become in the
course of time as important as
petroleum and the coal tar
products of the present time.”
–1912

link title

..."Biodiesel is not raw vegetable oil. Biodiesel must be produced by
a chemical process that removes glycerin from the oil."...

link title

ruking1

As herculean a task as getting the passenger diesel population greater than 1-2% has been over the last 30 years (per year growth of .00033 to , .00067) I think the NEXT real frontier will be taking the mount everest climb UP the "1B". path in adapting to building diesel engines specifically to run alternative fuel, i.e.,/ such as, bio diesel from algae. Indeed getting the (gasser) SUV's population from 1-2% to 12% (still a small majority) of the total passenger vehicle fleet has been far simplier in comparison.

A select group of folks are starting to see how really more adaptive the turbo diesel motor is to our highway systems than the overwhelming majority. (GASSERS)

gagrice

It looks like the Tiguan which I kind of like will get the 2.0L TDI this year or early next. That would be a real challenger for the hybrid mid sized SUVs. The Touareg V6 TDI could arrive at any time. Edmund's has pricing listed. That had to come from somewhere. The local dealer says they rarely get notice until they start arriving. The Sportwagen TDI is a real success. They are sold before they arrive. Taking about 6 months now to order one as you like it.

ruking1

Add to that a 3.0 L TDI Porsche Cayenne (upscaled and rebadged Touareg) to the list for 2010 , if a recent www.Edmunds.Com article is correct. While Edmunds.Com lists 44 diesel modelsPassenger DIESEL vehicle fleet offerings are starting to look like:

1. VW Jetta
2. VW Jetta SportWagon
3. VW Touareg (2 engines that I know of V10, V6)
4. MB E 320/350
5. MB ML 320
6. MB GL
7. BMW 335 D
8. BMW X5
9. VW Tiquan (TBD)
10. Porsche Cayenne (TBD)
11. Jeep G Cherokee
12. MB R
13. Audi Q7 (gagrice)

gagrice

The Audi Q7 will get the same TDI as the Touareg sometime this year. The VW/Audi V6 TDI has 407 ft Lbs of torque at 1750 RPM. More than the Mercedes and slightly less than the inline 6 diesel from BMW. All have more torque than their V8 gas counterparts. Now if they could just dump the urea crap for a better system we would have some great choices. All from Germany. I guess the Japanese and Americans are not capable of competing.

ruking1

Indeed while the Japanese oems do and have indeed make/made diesels for world wide markets, evidently they have decided the US market is not ripe for their involvement.

I was actually looking forward to the Accord/Civic/TL offerings... but.... the 09 Jetta will have to do. The extra power (52% more) is JUST a delight ! The so called slight hit in mpg is really almost miraculous; but a 5/6 mpg hit is still a 5/6 mpg hit (-13%). Even at that it does get BETTER mpg than the Civic (38-42 mpg)albeit slightly@ 41-43 mpg break in miles) and with literally 2.15 x the # ft of torque !!!!

stever

"But given America's aversion to diesels and the fact that diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline on this side of the Atlantic, few automakers are willing to sell them here. All we can do is look on wistfully as Europeans get yet more cool cars."

Wired

bigmclargehuge

Thats a shame. That car could do well in the States with diesel around the price of premium.

But Volvo's got other looming demons that would make it difficult to bring a new line of vehicles to the US even if they wanted to.

stever

Well, diesel is about 20 to 24 cents higher than premium so that's "around."

But the differential is a lot less than it was a few months ago. Of course, there's lots of guys like me who don't want a car that burns premium either, so my differential would be .42 a gallon or about $6 a tank or so.

RUG today is $1.83 here; diesel was $2.25 at the station where I filled up today.

gagrice

On average in the largest car market diesel is equal to RUG or less. Went by a Thrifty station this morning with RUG $2.11 and diesel $1.93

bpeebles

Cost per gallon is IRRELIVENT!

Here is the price-breakdown

Using my TDI as example, Diesel would have to be about 30% HIGHER than gasoline just to break even in the all-important COST-PER-MILE measurement.

I was just tellin my wife thisevening that I would replace my old Dodge Dakota V8 gasser in a heartbeat if there was a pickup available with 4-cylinder Diesel engine.

The sad part is that Dodge makes Dakotas with 4-cylinder Detroit-diesel in Brazil. Toyota and Nissan make 4-cylinder diesels too. We in North America do not get these lovely vehicles. I cannot understand why!?!

Our only choice of diesel pickup is a MONSTROUSLY huge truck with wayyy more power and fuel-consumption than I want/need. (Would not even fit in my driveway)

I miss my VW Rabbit-pickup

plekto

I second this opinion.

If there was a 4 cylinder turbo-diesel out there with manual and 4x4(that wasn't a Jeep or a VW), it would have a huge number of sales due to just the number of off-roading types who are looking for a replacement for their aging and nearly decrepit little trucks.

gagrice

The Toyota HiLux diesel may be one of the best trucks in the World. I would sure trade my gas guzzling Ford Ranger if they were sold here. It is not likely with the 25% chicken tax on foreign built PU Trucks. If we had a government that was truly concerned about cutting CO2 and using less foreign oil those trucks would be sold by the boat load. The opposite is true. The oil companies and the domestic auto makers will do everything in their power to keep high mileage PU trucks out of this country.

[Deleted User]

You just happen to be in a corner of the market where the difference is still that pronounced. Here in WI diesel costs less than premium gas, and last week I even saw premium diesel one penny less than RUG (RUG has since gone down 20 cents a gallon...no rhyme nor reason to these fluctuations).

ruking1

It almost does not need to be said, but prices per gal.... fluctuate, albeit even daily to @ times hourly!

BUT, A corner store (I don't go there) menu price lists:

RUG $2.09
PUG $2.24,
D2 $2.05.

To do like model comparisons.

03 VW 2.0, 29 mpg / $ RUG: =.0720689

03 VW 1.8T, 29mpg / $ PUG,=.0772413

03 VW TDI, 49 mpg / $D2,= .0418367

So doing a 3 cup (pick the) pea scam, aka 3 card Monte

Which is 72.3% more ? (cost per mile driven)
Which is 85% more ?

Which is da cheapest?

And you guessed it ! Upwards of 98% of the passenger vehicle fleet chose the "better two" !!!??

Not many folks pick the D2 cheaper one ! !!

Albeit less than 27.5% of the 2% of diesels, are passenger diesels. (255.7 M ) pg 40 link title passenger vehicle fleet)

Geez this math is way too hard. Because I am lazy, I must own one of the few magic calculators?? :P

stever

I could get diesel for $2.09 if I drove a ways. I could also get RUG for $1.71 if I drove a ways and bought the "off-brand." So I'm still looking at a .38 cent differential.

It's curious though - usually Idaho is one of the worst states for gasoline prices and I could see it popping up and passing the price of diesel. But right now we just make the cut for being in the top ten cheapest gas per GasBuddy.

Utah has the cheapest RUG in the country right now. Maybe all their CNG stations are cutting into gas sales.

nippononly

Diesel in my area is still $0.30/gallon higher than regular unleaded, but the differential is certainly down from the "bad times" early this year. Will the bad times return? Methinks yes, they will....but perhaps they also will with gasoline. Fuel prices are just too unpredictable....which is an argument for the vehicle (diesel) that uses less of it, I guess.

ruking1

This might be an esoteric answer to your rumination, but farmers have long known and in fact it is demonstrated to them time and time again year in year out, yada yada, they have narrow profits to slight losses (in a good year) when they use Red Dyed diesel. aka no taxation, foreign oil etc etc. So when they can "grow their own" to plant and process BIODIESEL, they not only have much GREATER PROFITS, it costs less (dah) and indeed it is not foreign oil being used !!! In addition local products/monies have an 8 to 1 multiplier effect !!! It is of course converse for foreign products/monies. So with less Red Dyed farm demand and less commerce, world wide, interstate, intra state, etc commerce traffic (CA alone indicates -12%) and the inevitable production gut, aka diesel is a necessary product during the production of RUG to PUG.....

Inso far as CNG, no less a personage than T Boone Pickens, had mentioned on CNBC? the population of CNG passenger vehicles is app 140,000 in the US, again of 255.7 M passenger vehicle fleet. The numbers while indeed sounds like a LOT is almost immeasurable percentage wise; and is doubtfull they are all located in the state you mentioned.

gagrice

My guess is that 99% of those CNG vehicles are fleet and government. CA had a lot of CNG Cop cars at one time. The guy I sold my Mercedes diesel RV to was driving a CNG Crown Vic in cop car colors. $1200 at auction and runs great. Lots of CNG Cabs around here also. Mostly Crown Vics.

stever

I think the number of public CNG stations in Utah is up to 25, mostly along the Wasatch Front on I-15. (Ah, 26 is the number). The fuel price is around .88 cents per gallon equivalent. Utah has some production laws that makes the gas they take out of the ground stay cheap there.

Lots of tax credits too. CNG Utah

ruking1

Right, CA has made a public relations spectacle of the concept. So more than one civilian CNG user was turned away from a state/fed/local government CNG fueling sight. They had to relegislate gov fueling stations to permit civilian customers!!?? However to me it is like a miracle beer commercial. Hey if you drink this beer all manner of miracle things will happen to you. Drive 18 hours to the next town, etc. It is a tad analogous in (my) the real world in that right after you drink the beer you'd best be looking @ 15 mins for a 20 min 12 oz problem.

Yet again like diesel this is alternative fuel. CNG conversions are available with off the shelf conversion technology etc etc. I mean most folks can even fuel at home !!!!!!!

So again if our system was REALLY interested in REALLY using less RUG to PUG.... They have however demonstrated a huge desire to talk about wanting to do it!!!! The operative reality is really @ 255,800,000/ 140,000 = .0005473 percent !! Hopefully I place the decimal point correctly. :surprise:

In contrast passenger diesel cars are a JUGGERNAUT @ .0145 percent (tad less than one and one half percent) or 3.7 M vehicles. I do like the 600-700 mile range !!!!!

stever

There's not enough oomph in most of the CNG compressors to handle the increased demand. So that's why the other ~90 Utah stations are limited to the in-house fleet they were designed to serve. The old infrastructure issue again.

lilengineerboy

The oil companies and the domestic auto makers will do everything in their power to keep high mileage PU trucks out of this country

I think spending all that time on the sun on your ranches has gotten to you. Do you realize that Ford and GM sell cars in places besides the US? Ford actually sells cars in Europe as well, and GM even has a different brand there (for the time being) called Opel (or Vexhaul I guess). You might be shocked to learn that in Europe, most vehicles actually have diesel engines. In European circles, Ford is pretty highly ranked for the diesel engine prowess, behind VW.

So yup, you must be correct. These huge flailing US companies that are spending bajilions (I think thats like 20 zeros or something) of dollars to develop diesel engine technology in Europe in no way would like to achieve a higher ROI by also selling those same drive trains here. Nope, that would be unthinkable.

nippononly

I think you may have missed the point - that the status quo is a lot more profitable for the automakers (and certainly for the oil companies) than investing in a change, and that if they do make the change it will be an expensive one as Europe has looser (until 2014) emissions standards for diesels than we do.

lilengineerboy

I think you may have missed the point - that the status quo is a lot more profitable for the automakers (and certainly for the oil companies) than investing in a change, and that if they do make the change it will be an expensive one as Europe has looser (until 2014) emissions standards for diesels than we do.

I think there might be some misses in here...my point is they are doing this anyway. Its not a change. It is status quo. They are developing these diesels, they are meeting emissions standards, etc. They might as well get it in as many places as possible.

nippononly

Their European diesels don't meet U.S. (Californian) emissions standards. So between
(a) spending lots of money to federalize their European models for safety and emissions, then ship them here from there, OR
(b) keep selling big honkin' V-8s, all they have known for close to a century,

they not surprisingly keep selling big honkin' V-8s. Also, if you talk about actually importing European models, you of course run into the problem that many are deemed not suitable for sale in America because they are
- too slow OR
- too small OR
- YOU NAME IT.

So not only are the powertrains unsuitable even with tweaking to meet different standards, many of the donor models are also unsuitable.

Now in some cases thay take this too far. Would Toyota be able to sell 50K HiLux diesels a year if they just spent the money to federalize it? I'm SURE they would.

Would Chevy be able to sell 25-50% of its LD Silverado 1500s at a $3K premium with a diesel engine if they had one? Yes, I bet they would. But the domestics have been very timid to invest in anything that isn't sure-fire in the last ten years (for obvious reasons), and Toyota makes plenty of money selling gas Tacomas and Tundras, so why would they bother to invest in importing the HiLux unless a mandate forces them to? Indeed, the new California GHG legislation may eventually force them to, but it won't happen until they have no choice, I'm sure. And even then they might decide to plug in (please excuse the pun!) a hybrid powertrain in the Tacoma instead of a diesel.

larsb

Trust me, folks.

There is no "anti-diesel" conspiracy in the USA.

USA buyers have just not embraced diesel passenger cars, for a lot of valid reasons and a couple of unusual reasons.

But there are no gasoline fat-cats sitting around the country club smoking Cuban stogies and laughing about how they "really showed those DIESEL-SNIFFERS the what for, I'd say we did Old Chap !!!"

elemoncelli

If US emission standards are stronger then Europe's why not make Diesel cars for the European Market meet US standards now. Then they can be sold in both markets. This gets you better gas mileage here (win) and positive PR for being greener in Europe (win), bigger economy of scales making things cheaper/more profitable, (win) and a larger market to sell your more profitable vehicles (win).

nippononly

If US emission standards are stronger then Europe's why not make Diesel cars for the European Market meet US standards now.

Certainly this is what the German automakers are already doing, That's why you can already buy 50-state VW and Mercedes diesels, with more models to follow soon. But they are relatively expensive.

Honda almost introduced a 50-state diesel this year that would have been available in the TSX, then the Accord and other midsize models. But the automatic powertrain missed the mark when they tested it for emissions, and they didn't want to put the extra money into it to get it up to snuff while sales are down like this. But what was the other reason they postponed their diesel program? Yes, they are doing just fine selling gassers, thank you very much. In fact, of the Japanese Big 3, Honda is the only one that doesn't expect to post an annual loss this spring.

ruking1

The real reason why I mentioned that diesels have 600-700 mile ranges!!!?? If CNG had those kind of ranges, even as you would probably build MORE infrastructure, you would oxymoronically NEED... less infrastructure. But for example in the WEST, that is serviced by (home) natural gas, and propane delivery..., the concept can not even get off the ground.....!!?? It is not new,. It is not technologically complicated,. Almost all technology is off the shelf....Shoot Nat gas and LNG and Propane Webber BBQ's have more adapters !!!! As you probably know www.edmunds.com has a CNG Honda Civic GX(?) write up!? The estimated range is a serious "TRIP" issue, while a sub 250 miles range is probably tailor made for R/T commuting.

I truly should stop saying this, as it may indeed convince some to switch over to diesel, but I have NEVER in 114,000 miles had trouble getting D2. Indeed the only time I do "wait" is for RUG to PUG folks to get out of the way, who are blocking no line D2 pumps !!! I have even a time or two, positioned the car perpendicular to the pump normal ingress and egress- flanked by gasser customers! If i go to a truck stop I do not wait at all for a pump.

stever

edmunds.com has a CNG Honda Civic GX(?) write up!?

Not just a write-up, but there's one in the fleet. So it gets lots of write-ups. It's getting about 33 mpg-equivalent.

ruking1

Not so obvious, right now nat gas "per gal equivalent" is 2.99 vs 2.05 D2 and 2.15 RUG. So outside of costing double( paid for a gasser Civic) 1-2k more for a home nat gas fueling hook up, waits in natural gas lines... what is not to like?

A bit disheartening to see Honda went back to a very fast wearing rotor& pad combination!! I am comparing it to a 04 Civic set up with 80k miles. The visual inspections plus wear calculations still indicate a min of 100,000 for the rears and 125,000 miles for the fronts. But I think this has been a hidden in plain sight secret for a long time. At the time, it did give me pause about buying it, as we do an " LA JR" type daily commute.We get 38-42 mpg in an LA JR type commute.

gagrice

The major point being the 25% tariff charged on every PU not built in the USA. So why bother building a small PU with a diesel engine that meets 50 state emissions when you would never be able to sell them with that tariff on top. They could build them here. But the market would take time to develop. VW, MB & BMW are doing pretty well with there 50 state diesels. Considering the market is in the toilet. Getting a Jetta Sportwagen TDI is a 6 month wait at MSRP here in San Diego. I imagine the sales will pick up here with diesel falling below regular. That is the way Americans do things.

cdnpinhead

Honda almost introduced a 50-state diesel this year that would have been available in the TSX. . .

Indeed.

Much of why I threw my RWD-only mindset under the bus was that Honda was about to introduce a proper diesel to America. I bought a gas TSX on the theory that it would trade nicely in a year or two for the diesel version.

Well. . .

1) The diesel is now on hold
2) The TSX grew a beak
3) This is the killer -- even if it does get here, it may not have a manual

I've grown old(er) waiting for the excellent European BMW, Audi & MB diesels (that I drove & saw in '01 and later) to show up in North America (not just the E-class). BMW & Merc are currently in the game, and they are bringing over only the top-of-the-line stuff, with auto-f-ing-matic transmissions, yet. Europe is full of 3.0 litre or smaller diesels with manuals, and the 335 is what BMW chooses to send over here? Scratch them from the list. Oh wait, there isn't a list, really.

Where is Audi? Will they ever get here, and when they do, will a manual transmission be part of the deal?

When will Honda/Acura bring a diesel? Will it have a manual?

Why on earth does the U.S. have to put up with this s***? The rest of the world is lousy with vehicles that I want to buy, but can't.

Because California (CARB) thinks it knows better than anyone else. You can tell how well that's working by reading the news. The budget situation is particularly telling. Someone (possibly on this board) pointed out that California's revenge is passing their legislation on to the rest of the states so that everyone can be equally screwed up.

Oh boy.

I could be driving my gas TSX for a very long time.

ruking1

Not to tempt you, but you REALLY should test drive the BMW 335 D !!! 265 hp/405 # ft of torque and twin turbos !!!! This is a serious touring machine !!

gagrice

You can get a Jetta TDI with manual transmission. I would buy from my local VW dealer long before I would step foot again into the arrogant Honda dealership.

ruking1

Sans other family drivers considerations, that would be my choice !! After break in, I would have no issues taking it on another 7,000 miles R/T cross country trip.

jlbl

And let me tempt both, cdpinhead and ruking1: please, test drive a 335d to share feelings and opinions!

I fully agree 335d is not the best choice to re-introduce diesels in the USA market on the basis of economy. 330d, 530d items are excellent in terms of balancing consume and performance; more economic but very useful 116d, 118d, 120d, 123d are selling themselves nicely here in Spain even in current crisis time.

But the 335d is just a marvel fusion of a differently bestial engine in a classic 3 Series platform; try it with sport package. It deserves the test just for the experience.

Regards,
Jose

cdnpinhead

You can get a Jetta TDI with manual transmission. I would buy from my local VW dealer long before I would step foot again into the arrogant Honda dealership.

When I was seriously looking (about a year ago), there were no (as in zero) diesel vehicles with a manual transmission available in Arizona. The Jetta may be now (in theory -- what are the backlogs?), but it wasn't then.

In two or three years, who knows? There's no doubt that VW is leading the pack.

Where are all the others?

cdnpinhead

. . .test drive a 335d to share feelings and opinions!

Not gonna do it!

Why? Because the car doesn't offer a manual transmission, besides which having a monster engine that I can't use most of the time is a major waste (not of resources, but of my money).

I enjoy European handling and features, but can't get it here.

ruking1

? I am not sure what you mean. 6 speed manuals are in inventory and populate the lots !!! even if they are not, dealer trades are standard ! With due respect, this is NOT a year ago !! In so far as where are all the others? Frankly I don't know, but if Pres Obama delivers on an economic upturn, chances are they will not be ripe for diesel tax credits like the 2009 @ $1300 under the 60,000 units mark. In addition, you can now write off (tax deduction) the sales tax. Connecticut TDI 2009 buyers get exempt from sales tax !!

cdnpinhead

6 speed manuals are in inventory and populate the lots !!!

Gotta love those multiple exclamations.

. . .this is NOT a year ago !!

Yuh think?

The sad fact is that I was in the market a year ago, not now. Even if the VW were available a year ago (which, to repeat, it was not), I'd have had to come to grips with: 1) I'm going to have to drive a FWD drive appliance, AND 2) It's a VW, with all the reliability baggage. I was almost willing to overlook the VW rep, but learned that there was nothing available.

What is your point, really?