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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited December 2014
    stever said:

    Saw diesel for under $3 - $2.93 now in town, at least at one spot.


    We are holding at $2.35 for RUG and Costco is still the best price on diesel at $2.65. It is about 9 miles further than the cheapest CC diesel in my area. If I wait until I am about down 20 gallons and save 20 cents a gallon over the $2.85 10 miles from home or $2.99 three miles from home, I save a minimum $4. I always combine it with a shopping trip or library run. I just wish my Costco would upgrade their pumps and add diesel. :D
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    RUG went up a nickel at one of the cheap gas places here. Saw diesel for $3.08 in Deming today, pretty good price I thought for a small town along the Interstate (RUG was $2.08 there)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I like to map out the best prices for fuel along my route. My run to Oregon has a fuel stop at 515 miles in Elk Grove, CA. Good prices and nice motels.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2014
    You know us; we'll plan ahead, but mostly it's just a general idea of destinations. This recent overnight trip went almost exactly as outlined though. If it hadn't been for a side trip to City of Rocks State Park I could have cruised back home on more than just fumes. The ten mile DTE predicted buffer didn't cut it though. B)

    My BIL was amused at my comment as we hit Deming. The Chevron near the Interstate exit there was $2.18, so I said the cheap stuff in town was probably $2.07 and told my wife to keep driving. I missed it by a penny. No data on the iPad this trip to look up GasBuddy stuff en route. Most of the time we weren't getting good cell coverage anyway.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Thanks to the pronounced drop in gasoline prices over the past six months, that premium has grown to nearly 80 cents per gallon as of last week, the widest spread since 2008, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration. A year earlier, the spread was just more than 50 cents."

    Lots of other interesting tidbits in this Automotive News article, like booming Ram sales due to pent up diesel demand and a bit of a fall off in TDI sales. And look for a narrow spread in pricing come June.

    Diesel's premium grows, shuffling fuel economy math
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The price spread makes it more of a buyer's market for diesel vehicles. In 2005 when we bought the Jetta wagon TDI, diesel was more expensive than gas by about 60 cents a gallon. The VW dealer South of Portland Oregon bought five Jetta wagon TDIs from another dealer. I picked up mine well under invoice. After driving it 13 months RUG had gone above diesel here in San Diego. Making the VW TDI a great buy and me $3000. Buy low sell high. It is rare to do that with vehicles as they lose so much out the door.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The numbers in the US aren't working out too well currently for sellers of diesels.

    "Over 35 vehicles that are available in gasoline and diesel form, the firm found just eleven models for which the cost of ownership was lower compared to the gasoline counterpart."

    Five vehicles that cost less to own as diesels
    (Christian Science Monitor)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A
    gagrice said:

    I do think the Utilities favor EVs as they take up the slack on their generators over night. SDG&E offers a lower rate for EVs at night. My concern is the utilities will spend less and less maintaining their backup power. So when it is cloudy and no wind it could cause outages.

    We have not had a decent Energy policy forever. It is just slapped together with a power grid that has so many weaknesses.


    Amen Brother! The lack of an Energy Policy over the past 35 years (or more) has been one of the biggest failures of any Congress that has sat during that time. If it's true that running a democracy is like making sausages, then these weiners taste awful.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014

    A

    gagrice said:

    I do think the Utilities favor EVs as they take up the slack on their generators over night. SDG&E offers a lower rate for EVs at night. My concern is the utilities will spend less and less maintaining their backup power. So when it is cloudy and no wind it could cause outages.

    We have not had a decent Energy policy forever. It is just slapped together with a power grid that has so many weaknesses.


    Amen Brother! The lack of an Energy Policy over the past 35 years (or more) has been one of the biggest failures of any Congress that has sat during that time. If it's true that running a democracy is like making sausages, then these weiners taste awful.
    There is indeed much deeper and darker downside to this (longer term) trend. Our local (serves app half of the state) G&E were able to get away with BETTER paperwork compliance and close to half a billion $$'s in fines (they will probably appeal that down) after a neighborhood literally and figuratively got blown off the face of the map !!!! IT is not that they did not know of this deficiency. They were actually warned for literally YEARS! They just let it leak and through a accident of natural it caught fire!!! ???? The CEO during this time got a $ 54 M GOLDEN PARACHUTE for being the sacrificial lamb. To those who see the implications, it is downright chilling !!! To most all others, it is SOS/DD.

    IF they are "willing" to pay close to a BILLION $$'s in fines levied, it is a no brainer to surmise that "PROPER" infrastructure upgrades, repairs and maintenance are easily in the TRILLIONS !! So the power companies are willing to pay for bandaids, when major reconstructive surgery is needed !!!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    gagrice said:

    I like to map out the best prices for fuel along my route. My run to Oregon has a fuel stop at 515 miles in Elk Grove, CA. Good prices and nice motels.

    Yes I did a "Gas Buddy" stop after the low fuel lamp lit. The wife did the navigation. It was more than easy to access the Chevron station right off N Highway 99 (between Elk Grove/Lodi 2 blocks off/on) @ $ 2.89, with a .20 cent Safeway discount. Took on 24.65 gal (26.4) for 742 miles. So we had 1.75 gal left. We had to go by the "Altamount Pass WIND project" a visual,energy, eyesore and economic disaster!!!

    Lest I forget, no good deed goes unpunished !! ??

    The Progressive Case for Fracking
    Tumbling oil prices have sent repressive regimes around the world reeling. Liberals should rejoice.

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/james-bloodworth-the-progressive-case-for-fracking-1419898265?mod=hp_opinion
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,496
    stever said:

    The numbers in the US aren't working out too well currently for sellers of diesels.

    "Over 35 vehicles that are available in gasoline and diesel form, the firm found just eleven models for which the cost of ownership was lower compared to the gasoline counterpart."

    Five vehicles that cost less to own as diesels
    (Christian Science Monitor)

    Good read!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Interesting - it's the PUG vs diesel thing that helps for those cars, where a RUG vehicle doesn't compete as well. I didn't read closely, but am also curious about when the fuel costs were determined, certainly not in the past 6 weeks or so.
    stever said:


    Five vehicles that cost less to own as diesels (Christian Science Monitor)

  • slorenzenslorenzen Member Posts: 694
    ruking1 said:

    gagrice said:

    I like to map out the best prices for fuel along my route. My run to Oregon has a fuel stop at 515 miles in Elk Grove, CA. Good prices and nice motels.

    Yes I did a "Gas Buddy" stop after the low fuel lamp lit. The wife did the navigation. It was more than easy to access the Chevron station right off N Highway 99 (between Elk Grove/Lodi 2 blocks off/on) @ $ 2.89, with a .20 cent Safeway discount. Took on 24.65 gal (26.4) for 742 miles. So we had 1.75 gal left. We had to go by the "Altamount Pass WIND project" a visual,energy, eyesore and economic disaster!!!
    With approx. 2% windmills actually running, right?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2014
    Well Altamont is a 35 year old project. What would you say about a 35 year old computer or cell phone? (or a 35 year old diesel car for that matter).
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    slorenzen said:

    ruking1 said:

    gagrice said:

    I like to map out the best prices for fuel along my route. My run to Oregon has a fuel stop at 515 miles in Elk Grove, CA. Good prices and nice motels.

    Yes I did a "Gas Buddy" stop after the low fuel lamp lit. The wife did the navigation. It was more than easy to access the Chevron station right off N Highway 99 (between Elk Grove/Lodi 2 blocks off/on) @ $ 2.89, with a .20 cent Safeway discount. Took on 24.65 gal (26.4) for 742 miles. So we had 1.75 gal left. We had to go by the "Altamount Pass WIND project" a visual,energy, eyesore and economic disaster!!!
    With approx. 2% windmills actually running, right?
    IF that !!!! ???

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014

    Well Altamont is a 35 year old project. What would you say about a 35 year old computer or cell phone? (or a 35 year old diesel car for that matter).

    NOT to make hamburger sausage out of a long since dead horse, but it really goes (almost perfect illustration) to my over all point !!! ??? AKA WEAK EXCUSES !!!!! Even then (40 years ago) the major financial draws were tax credits and tax write offs. I remembered some vague details from seminars promoting the deals.

    Another is the original architecture allowed for INDIVIDUAL, aka modular addition/replacement. So there are not SYSTEMS impediments. In other words, the whole SYSTEM does not have to be replaced. NOW it DOES most likely needs TOTAL replacement. Those are probably whole other levels of reasonings.

    Another is the "ENVIRONMENTAL" WIND project was plagued from the beginning by .... environmental lawsuits !!!!!!

    Go WIND and SOLAR and .... we will SUE you for going WIND and SOLAR !!!! OR maybe they REALLY understand the downsides !! ?? LOL

    With friends like that, who needs enemies? Needless to say successful and unsuccessful lawsuits effect/affect financial scenarios. I should have been a lawyer !!!!!!

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    fintail said:

    Interesting - it's the PUG vs diesel thing that helps for those cars, where a RUG vehicle doesn't compete as well. I didn't read closely, but am also curious about when the fuel costs were determined, certainly not in the past 6 weeks or so.

    stever said:


    Five vehicles that cost less to own as diesels (Christian Science Monitor)

    Indeed PUG PVF is app 9%+. Diesels cars are more like less than 2.5%. D2 prices are less "pliable" for any number of reasons, much higher efficiency, cheaper cost per mile driven, higher taxes, EXPORTABLE product/s, balance of payment work horses, to name a few, aka, no good deed goes unpunished.

    Indeed a 1% D2 oversupply can easily cause a $1.00 drop in ULSD prices. The number of gals of D2 would be FAR less than RUG/PUG (93 M bbl per day with 1% over) !!!! In the context of prices BELOW $2.03 per gal, i.e. cheaper than RUG/PUG. This will of course not necessarily affect RUG/PUG prices. So to put some numbers to it. 20% + D2 is exported from DOMESTIC refineries, vs close to ZERO % RUG/PUG.

    SOS/DD area

    ULSD $ 3.03

    RUG $ 2.35
    MG $ 2.45
    PUG $2.55

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    I'm watching an episode of 5th gear, 4 "English " folks in a Mazda 6 2.2 L 280 # ft. TDI (67 mpg +) @ 135 mph for 20.3 mpg (in the rain) !!! :D

    Also could not help but notice a 2 HUGE blades CAT diesel grader go by (the house) with tire chains to push little to no snow !!! Got to love complete and TOTAL overkill ! !! OH that is right, we pay TAXES !!! :DB)
  • avalon02whavalon02wh Member Posts: 785
    Diesel is dead, at least as a fuel for passenger cars. The average price for regular is now $2.30 in the USA. Diesel is going for $3.21. (www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/) I drove a 2014 Passat 1.8L and a 2014 Jetta TDI a couple months ago. Both engines were fine around town. On the other hand, the 1.8L engine wins the ever important 0-60 mph drag race with a time of 8.6 seconds versus 9.8 for the TDI (CR). The 1.8L gas engine would be the better option for highway merging.

    Using the mpg numbers from Consumer Reports, 19/39 – 1.8L and 26/51 – TDI we get:
    1.8L @ 19 mpg & $2.30/ gallon = cost of 12.1 cents/mile
    TDI @ 26 mpg & $3.21/ gallon = cost of 12.3 cents/mile
    1.8L @ 39 mpg & $2.30/ gallon = cost 5.9 of cents/mile
    TDI @ 51 mpg & $3.21/ gallon = cost 6.3 of cents/mile
    On top of this the TDI engine is a few grand more. The 1.8L engine is the better option from a $$$ and performance perspective. I would definitely purchase the Passat 1.8L versus the Passat TDI.
  • slorenzenslorenzen Member Posts: 694

    Diesel is dead, at least as a fuel for passenger cars. The average price for regular is now $2.30 in the USA. Diesel is going for $3.21. (www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/) I drove a 2014 Passat 1.8L and a 2014 Jetta TDI a couple months ago. Both engines were fine around town. On the other hand, the 1.8L engine wins the ever important 0-60 mph drag race with a time of 8.6 seconds versus 9.8 for the TDI (CR). The 1.8L gas engine would be the better option for highway merging.

    Using the mpg numbers from Consumer Reports, 19/39 – 1.8L and 26/51 – TDI we get:
    1.8L @ 19 mpg & $2.30/ gallon = cost of 12.1 cents/mile
    TDI @ 26 mpg & $3.21/ gallon = cost of 12.3 cents/mile
    1.8L @ 39 mpg & $2.30/ gallon = cost 5.9 of cents/mile
    TDI @ 51 mpg & $3.21/ gallon = cost 6.3 of cents/mile
    On top of this the TDI engine is a few grand more. The 1.8L engine is the better option from a $$$ and performance perspective. I would definitely purchase the Passat 1.8L versus the Passat TDI.

    You're assuming the price of gas will STAY a lot cheaper.

    It won't.

    And if you spend any time driving on the highway, the diesel is much nicer to live with.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What happens when Gas goes back up to 4 bucks a gallon, and it will. April 2014 I paid $3.94 at Costco for RUG, and $3.99 at Chevron for diesel. Using the flawed EPA ratings, that is 14.1 cents per mile with the Passat 1.8L and 11.7 cents per mile with the Passat TDI. Or over a 15,000 mile year about $350 more to drive the gasser. Except the true average for the Passat TDI is more like 41 MPG combined vs the EPA estimate of 34 MPG. Real World mileage would save you more like $650 per year. And I can tell you it is a pleasure merging into traffic with a TDI vs a gas V8 vehicle. I would like to see a comparison between the Passat 1.8L and the TDI from 30 to 75 MPH which is most of our merging around here. I don't race 0-60 at stoplights anymore. Of course prices may vary by regions of the country. Our current price difference is far less than the national average. 20 cents more than RUG today. Same price as Premium. I am loving the $2.59 diesel. And of course 650 to 750 miles on a tank is great also.

    http://www.sandiegogasprices.com/Costco_Gas_Stations/Chula_Vista/75686/index.aspx
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I suspect that many diesel car owners did not buy the car strictly for saving money on fuel, and those that did probably were switching from gas hogs, where the savings could be significant.

    Comparing the fuel costs of a small gas engine to a small diesel engine doesn't really tell the whole story.

    Consider:

    more durable engines
    greater range between fill ups
    great pulling power (for pickup truck owners)
    good resale value (in most cases)
    nice low end torque for squirting around in traffic
    environmentally as sound as a gas car (in most cases)

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited January 2015
    I chose my old diesel for the good lease deal, the mechanical feel of the engine, the torque, and the economy. However, once the lease deal evaporated and it became a bit pricier than a gasser, the price difference canceled out those other factors. I do miss that torque though. The gasser does have some pros - velvety smooth, faster, but the diesel is maybe more unique here.

    MB really needs to bring over a C250 Bluetec 4Matic wagon, I might actually keep one of those for a long time.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2015
    Why Gas Feels Cheap—and Why It’s Not, Historically Speaking (This has been a free WSJ link for a couple of days now).

    (Welcome back @avalon02wh)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2015
    Truly, the whole RUG/PUG SHORTAGE/environmental catastrophic) narrative has been BLOWN !!!

    IF the RUG/PUG PRICES can be literally CRUSHED (market driven) with a 1% over supply AND IS 95% of the PVF , can one just IMAGINE how much CHEAPER each fuel segment can be with say 50 to 60 % RUG/PUG, 40 % to 50% diesel and 10% "other" !!! ??? (% examples only).

    So no matter which way prices do/will go, diesels will have the minimum of 30 % + mpg efficiency.

    So for example, the"ultimate" fuel price hedge would the same model with RUG/PUG, diesel, EV versions.

    Now the BO POTUS administration could have claim plausible deniability and blame/vilify those dastardly and despicable oil, gas, and electricy industries. However, he needed to go toe to toe (economically) with PUTIN ( POTUS administration) and pay back some of the Cuban and terrorists sponsors like Venezuela and IRAN. et. al.

    I hope for our sakes that the US oil and gas industries do not pass on ANY technology to CHINA. Nobody runs oil and gas fields like US companies.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2015

    I suspect that many diesel car owners did not buy the car strictly for saving money on fuel, and those that did probably were switching from gas hogs, where the savings could be significant.

    Comparing the fuel costs of a small gas engine to a small diesel engine doesn't really tell the whole story.

    Consider:

    more durable engines
    greater range between fill ups
    great pulling power (for pickup truck owners)
    good resale value (in most cases)
    nice low end torque for squirting around in traffic
    environmentally as sound as a gas car (in most cases)

    Indeed those reasons and more are true for me !

    Greater pulling power is great even for those that do not own pick up trucks nor tow.This is true especially @ altitude (I normally run 5,000 to 7,388 ft) In addition, 2 seasons are normally more consumptive: winter, fall.

    Another side bar are diesels emissions wise are very close to gasser/hybrids. !! (normally gasser hybrids are a bit less.)

    Cheaper per mile driven at this stage is gravy.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    ruking1 said:

    I hope for our sakes that the US oil and gas industries do not pass on ANY technology to CHINA. Nobody runs oil and gas fields like US companies.

    Heh, like Halliburton, who was helping run the Deepwater Horizon for BP? :p

    In other oil wars, How Ford's New F-150 Will Compete With the Diesel Ram (fool.com)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2015
    stever said:

    ruking1 said:

    I hope for our sakes that the US oil and gas industries do not pass on ANY technology to CHINA. Nobody runs oil and gas fields like US companies.

    Heh, like Halliburton, who was helping run the Deepwater Horizon for BP? :p

    In other oil wars, How Ford's New F-150 Will Compete With the Diesel Ram (fool.com)
    Well yes. IF it were not for environmental forces pushing these types of operations to sea, MORE can/ should be done on land !!! It is really a question WHEN (not IF) there is going to be a leak due to undersea operations. The natural consequences ARE leakage .... @ sea !! ?? To expect 100% fail safe is a FOOLS delusion. Really where IS it going to leak? I think it fair to say not in YOUR back yard? So do you think the Cubans, Venezuelans, Russians, Chinese, Iranians, et al, will be WAY better ???

    So for example, when our local G & E blew up a community (natural gas explosion) it took them several hours to turn off the gas ! ??? By that time, the modern day Dante's Inferno had killed (8) folks and wiped out one whole PUD.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_San_Bruno_pipeline_explosion

    The natural gas valves controlling the flow are LITERALLY not far from my house in a natural gas substation. Indeed the TDI passes it EVERY commute day.

    Not only is the Ford F 150 logic tortured @ best, but the MINUS 700 + #'s is/was not compared. So do we think mpg and payload will go UP/down when RAM DIESEL loses 700#'s PLUS ???

    2 Slow news diesel day (probably NOT related)

    1. 09 Jetta TDI @ app 95,000 miles (first time), the low coolant lamp lit. Took out the bottle o G12 (what VW calls anti freeze) and distilled H20 and filled the anti freeze tank with 10 oz of fluid. Will burp it and adjust fluid levels, if some air was induced (probably not).
    2. SOS/DD, got down off the mountain. I had to follow the herd the rest of the trip. 29 mpg. Got a .50 cent per gal grocery discount, so I am fulling expecting $2.53 per gal or less, ULSD or $13 saved per 26 gal tank.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    My first house in Boise turned out to be on the main natural gas feed into the city and there was a pressure relief valve across the street with a vent in the alley behind my house. Once I figured out what it was, I called up the gas company and told them I didn't think the vent was safe. They hemmed and hawed a bit until I mentioned that garbage trucks went down the alley all the time. After that they came out and put up a big bollard. We wound up moving across town within a year.

    I can see ~30 panels from my living room window and I'm really paranoid about solar leaks and explosions. :D

    I don't think anyone does fuel discounts around here. Closest grocery with an affinity card is Smiths and they aren't around Las Cruces for some reason. Good stores too.

    Good luck with the coolant. I'd just like to dump my '09 before the dash on it lights up like a Christmas tree..
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2015
    "Good luck with the coolant. I'd just like to dump my '09 before the dash on it lights up like a Christmas tree.."

    I am not sure what to make of what your quote says about gassers and cooling systems.

    As I remember (could be faulty) the 03 Jetta TDI took on G12 @ app same mileage and amount. BUT it was done @ the same time as a TB/water pump change, so we loss a wee bit more draining and refilling the coolant system to complete the procedure.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Oh, it's just a used van and I don't really know it's history, and it's pretty miled up. It got us moved but it's just too big to live with another 15,000 miles. I have good intentions to actually test drive a VW this time around (but yeah, make mine a gasser).
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2015
    stever said:

    Oh, it's just a used van and I don't really know it's history, and it's pretty miled up. It got us moved but it's just too big to live with another 15,000 miles. I have good intentions to actually test drive a VW this time around (but yeah, make mine a gasser).

    I would not try to talk you out of either, especially if you have test driven a (like model) TDI and felt no need for the greater torque, better mpg, cheaper operation and costs, better altitude operations and normally better resale value (later). I think some to a lot of folks seem to place a VERY high premium on the gassers (normally better) ZERO to 60 mph metric. For as close as most diesels are to like model gassers, the differences are literally meaningless on a practical level.

    EVEN if diesel ZERO to 60 mph WERE better than like model gassers, I can easily pass MOST gassers @ altitude. SO .... no advantage. On the SOS/DD trek, BIG V8's do try to keep up with my dinky 3.0 L and even dinkier 2.1 L, 1.9 L TDI's . While i have never had a drink at a bar to ask any why, I suspect watching their gas gauge actually move while they are trying to keep up MIGHT be one factor. Of course, I don't want to tell em I get between 29 to 48 mpg, staying ahead of them. ;)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2015
    As much as I enjoy razzing you guys, it's the asthma trigger factor that's the real deal killer around here, but that's just this household.

    Although the price of entry is important and since I (usually) drive them forever, resale isn't much of an issue. I dunno, it would also bug me to be paying a buck more a gallon right now, even though we know the differential will shrink in a few months. Shoot, even "premium required" is a deal killer for me. Torque is fun but zero to 60 is meh.

    Really, what I want is tech, and mostly the safety tech at that.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2015
    stever said:

    As much as I enjoy razzing you guys, it's the asthma trigger factor that's the real deal killer around here, but that's just this household.

    Although the price of entry is important and since I (usually) drive them forever, resale isn't much of an issue. I dunno, it would also bug me to be paying a buck more a gallon right now, even though we know the differential will shrink in a few months. Shoot, even "premium required" is a deal killer for me. Torque is fun but zero to 60 is meh.

    Really, what I want is tech, and mostly the safety tech at that.

    I am sorry about the medical sensitivitives. I am sure there are many more folks allergic to RUG/PUG fumes.

    Even though all the family is in tech, I am probably the least uber enthused about it in cars. One reason: more distractions.

    Perhaps that would NOT be as true, if I was being driven most of the time. Then I could watch movies, TV, do internet, Yelping, shave, dress, eat lunch, track stocks, do meetings, talk on the phone, etc. However my most favorite thing to do on a long car ride is to NAP and look out windows, while conscious. This writes BORING to me as it probably is to most reading this. Most folks I know who are SUPER techie HATE to spend ANY time in cars, let alone the times I do, even as short as SOS/DD trek 2.75 hours UP.

    Google for example made a manpower wasting project out of only 45 mins to 1 hour of it. For the solutions to the issues, they are being vilified. Again no good deeds go unpunished.

    But then I have to say, it is CRIMINAL to suicidal to murderous to be distracted on a 2 lane mountain road that by all rights should be a FREEWAY !!! One example, going by an on coming fully loaded gasoline truck within 24 to 6 INCHES separation (yes and NO barrier- inclement weather is also a treat) .

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I want all the traction control stuff, the lane change warnings, blind spot monitoring and backup cams. And six or eight air bags. Auto parking would be nice, even though I can parallel park pretty good. Adaptive headlights. Pre-Collision systems. Automatic braking like Subaru's EyeSight. Adaptive cruise control. With my aging eyes, night-vision assist would be great too.

    Oh yeah, a place for my USB stick and a wifi hotspot for when I'm riding shotgun. :-)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2015
    stever said:

    I want all the traction control stuff, the lane change warnings, blind spot monitoring and backup cams. And six or eight air bags. Auto parking would be nice, even though I can parallel park pretty good. Adaptive headlights. Pre-Collision systems. Automatic braking like Subaru's EyeSight. Adaptive cruise control. With my aging eyes, night-vision assist would be great too.

    Oh yeah, a place for my USB stick and a wifi hotspot for when I'm riding shotgun. :-)

    For sure, if one is willing to pay for them ! I would like the option to opt OUT of any to all of them. I am sure each to ANY of the oems would like to sell as many as possible with the full monte of options. Reasons are obvious. Most of the GEE WHIZ stuff does not over come physics or good driver practices.

    I do know for me, every time I want to either change something, activate or deactivate, it requires a lot of learning, relearning, to remembering, to pulling out an almost incomprehensible set of 1000 pg PLUS series of owners manuals !!!

    So for example, VW Touareg TDI has buttons for 3 sets of different garage doors remotes. I hope it isn't VW's way of telling me I need 3 houses with a garage door each. ;) Or was that one house with 3 separate garage doors.
  • avalon02whavalon02wh Member Posts: 785
    edited January 2015
    Gas may stay cheaper, the spread could get worse.

    Not sure how a diesel is better on the highway. I really don't want or need a car with that kind of range. Stopping every once and awhile is needed to empty the you know what and to stretch the legs.
  • avalon02whavalon02wh Member Posts: 785

    I suspect that many diesel car owners did not buy the car strictly for saving money on fuel, and those that did probably were switching from gas hogs, where the savings could be significant.

    Comparing the fuel costs of a small gas engine to a small diesel engine doesn't really tell the whole story.

    Consider:

    more durable engines
    greater range between fill ups
    great pulling power (for pickup truck owners)
    good resale value (in most cases)
    nice low end torque for squirting around in traffic
    environmentally as sound as a gas car (in most cases)

    Is there any data to back up the claim that diesel engines in cars last longer or are more durable? http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2011/12/09/cars-that-can-run-for-over-200000-miles/ Gasoline engines can last hundreds of thousands of miles. It looks like the world record holder is a gasoline engine. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/07/09/156497223/2-97-million-and-counting-66-volvo-is-nearing-its-3-millionth-mile He is using the original engine!

    I have found that a range of 350 to 400 miles is more than enough. Our Altima, which gets 40 mpg at 70-75 mph, can easily go 600 miles with the 18 gallon tank.

    Diesels may have a better resale value, but you pay for that up front when you buy the car. This becomes mute if people are keeping their diesel for many years and miles.

    Gasoline engines with a turbo also have good low end torque.

    On balance, I still would not get a diesel. If diesel where to get within 5-10% of the price of RUG I might reconsider. That may never happen. Yesterday, I went by two gas stations that had diesel. The price for diesel was $3.49. The price for RUG was $2.39. E85 was $1.79.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2015
    ruking1 said:

    Most of the GEE WHIZ stuff does not over come physics or good driver practices.

    I think it helps a lot. That's one reason fatality rates are down - for example, it's okay to have your teen drive a SUV now since there's less rollover risk with the newer models. And you can thank the electronic stability systems for that.

    In yowser at the bowser news"

    "The faster growing demand for diesel has supported higher global prices than for unleaded.

    The United States is the world’s largest producer and exporter of diesel fuels and, according to Bloomberg News, the refiners’ profit margins on diesel were roughly about double the margins for unleaded petrol as world crude oil prices began to tumble."

    Ergo, diesel car promotion is a conspiracy by Shell, BP, et. al. :D

    Why diesel drivers are being slugged at the bowser (thenewdaily.com.au)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2015
    avalon02wh said: "Is there any data to back up the claim that diesel engines in cars last longer or are more durable?"

    I think there is if you view "durability" in terms of basic metallurgy; however, what with the variables of owner maintenance and driving conditions, proving conclusively that your diesel car will outlive your gas car might be an elusive quest.

    In any event, given how long most Americans keep their cars, the long range durability will be irrelevant for 95% of us.

    Also, diesel cars are not the same as diesel buses and trucks, which do rack up some remarkable mileages. They also have engines that are often as large as 1/2 your entire car.


  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2015
    That TDI engine may last forever but I wouldn't hold my breathe on the window regulators. :D

    I'm seeing some reliability complaints on '08 VWs - I thought VWs were getting loads better since my sister's '00 New Bettle issues (especially the power windows). But are you going to drive an efficient diesel (or NY gasser for that matter) with a dead dash or if you are looking at an AC repair that's going to cost more than the book value of the car?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2015

    avalon02wh said: "Is there any data to back up the claim that diesel engines in cars last longer or are more durable?"

    I think there is if you view "durability" in terms of basic metallurgy; however, what with the variables of owner maintenance and driving conditions, proving conclusively that your diesel car will outlive your gas car might be an elusive quest.

    In any event, given how long most Americans keep their cars, the long range durability will be irrelevant for 95% of us.

    Also, diesel cars are not the same as diesel buses and trucks, which do rack up some remarkable mileages. They also have engines that are often as large as 1/2 your entire car.


    One basic premise is that most to any cars/car, gasser, gas hybrid, EV, to diesel are/is designed to last a minimum of 100,000 miles to 120,000 miles OR one major tune up cycle. There are a few common sense logical caveats. BUT on the other hand, I do realize common sense is NOT so common AND logic can be seen as illogical.

    However, most gasser owners and some diesel owners for a whole host of reasons, rarely go there and/or are loathed to much exceed that. Indeed, I would surmise even Avalon2 thinks he (his gasser) might be living on borrowed time passed the 2nd cycle from @ 120,000 to 240,000 miles. So IF very few folks are going to ACTUALLY go 2,3,4 cycles, aka 240,000, 360,000, 480,000 miles, to ask for data from those that do NOT is a tad delusional, more PC, irrational. On the other hand, when those that actually do go over that AND report results, it is vilified as anecdotal, to be PC.

    The 2003 Jetta TDI is going on 187,000 miles, that easily still gets 50 mpg. So far I have done 30,000 miles OCIs and one major tune (TB/WP change and a VAG.com tune up) For its residual worth, the cost per mile driven: DEPRECIATION is app 4.28 cents per mile. I am actually looking for that to go DOWN, aka get better. My take,@ both the age and mileage, it is relatively NEW.

    I am used to any number of GASSERS with app 250,000 miles, two dissimilar examples: 1970 VW Beetle (Germ) , 1987 TLC ([non-permissible content removed]). So a diesel (Germ/[non-permissible content removed]) to those same mileages are indeed (for me) a no brainer. (given no [non-permissible content removed] TDI, default leaves Germ) In fact, I'd to tickled to get the same cpm DEPRECIATION of .028 cents, gotten on a 1987 TLC, used in a former business. Mpg was between 12 to 15 mpg. :s I won't describe how much oil the TLC seemed to swill. So getting 31 to 40 mpg in a VW T TDI is a VAST improvement. @ the posted mpg's 250,000 miles will post 16,667 gals vs 8,065 gals. Anyone can do the math here. It would be pretty hard for 16,667 gals of RUG/PUG to be cheaper than 8,065 gals of ULSD.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    My '99 lasted 15 years, 200k miles. Some kid is (I hope) still driving it while he's going to diesel mechanic school.

    It had airbags. And, er, ABS brakes. That's about it for "features". Doing without all that stuff is a big downside to "driving them forever". Most average drivers will still take around seven years to get to 100k.

    I want my USB. B)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,547
    edited January 2015
    Why have gas prices fallen so much, while diesel, in my area at least, has gone down comparatively little? Anyway, this seems a potential blow the economic viability of diesel for cars and SUVs in the US. Before this the economic benefits were small, if they existed at all, for diesel, but now it seems like it's more expensive to run a diesel vehicle than one with regular gas. Perhaps the performance is now the major angle....?
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2024 Subaru Outback (wife's), 2018 Honda CR-V EX (offspring)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2015
    benjaminh said:

    Why have gas prices fallen so much, while diesel, in my area at least, has gone down comparatively little? Anyway, this seems a potential blow the economic viability of diesel for cars and SUVs in the US. Before this the economic benefits were small, if they existed at all, for diesel, but now it seems like it's more expensive to run a diesel vehicle than one with regular gas. Perhaps the performance is now the major angle....?

    There are a HOST of reasons, and lately, I have posited a few to many ! To repeat them would be tedious. Needless to say, ULSD could and SHOULD BE ... far cheaper !!!! So thank the frackers. Remember also that no good deed/s go unpunished.

    To keep all to some assertions mainly data driven with opinion based conclusions so stated, those issues have been ongoingly addressed .

    What cuts to the quick, quickly: cost per mile driven; FUEL I have any number of times compared like models and LOCAL fuel prices (my- use YOURS obviously)

    So with PUG @ $2.99 for 18 mpg AND ULSD @ $3.09 (MORE per gal !!!!) for 29 mpg, the 12 VW T gasser uses PUG/TDI= PMD: FUEL= 16.61 cents/10.66 cents. SO,... PUG like model= 56 % MORE (than ULSD) !!! Seems like a lot of folks are arthritic around CHEAP calculators or don't have pencil and paper to do math. !! ???

    Be that as it may, I am TOTALLY ok with the majority (95%+) of folks choosing to pay (much) MORE !! Just don't force me or make it uneconomically untenable for folks like me to pay .... LESS !! ;):D

    Don't you all remember that was what got US and the US into this artificial MESS in the first place? (circa 1970's, about a biblical generation ago) In contrast, (converted) UK and Germ currently pay $8.00 +plus US per gal RUG/PUG !!!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2015
    stever said:

    My '99 lasted 15 years, 200k miles. Some kid is (I hope) still driving it while he's going to diesel mechanic school.

    It had airbags. And, er, ABS brakes. That's about it for "features". Doing without all that stuff is a big downside to "driving them forever". Most average drivers will still take around seven years to get to 100k.

    I want my USB. B)

    Right ! The NHTSA's (in arrears) data shows that one can be 5 to 15 years "OFF" or in arrears to reap the benefits of the year to year "steady" safety progression or improvements !! So that model year can be 1997. So for example, the 2012 are the LATEST figures. In addition, you did not mention that drunk driving accidents and fatalities have take a serious DOWN turn (aka LESS, to 30% overall) !! SO,..... it is difficult to precisely say the RATES are the same or BETTER due solely to "safety" improvements. Indeed, the (safety improvement) rates MAY have actually gone DOWN !!!

    http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

    GOOD/BAD? TMI to grossly misleading?

    However, unless one is ONE of the RARE folks to drive in ALL 50 states, and DC and the "colony's", the over all data can be substantively to TOTALLY MISLEADING !! ?? By all rights, the real nexus should be each states' (50+ DC + the "colony's) correlation/s WITH the OVERALL DATA, which I might add has/has never not been done !!!!!!!!!

    So for example, I drive locally in NorCA and western NV. So why should I freak about DUI, accidents, fatalities in New Orleans, LA , or the other 48 + states, etc. !! ??? The corollary here, I should pay WRAPPED attention to the accidents, fatalities and DUI statistics for NorCA and way secondarily in western NV. !!

    http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/States/StatesCrashesAndAllVictims.aspx
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I'm really going to start shopping next week. Seriously. Test drives and everything.

    Maybe....
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2015
    stever said:

    I'm really going to start shopping next week. Seriously. Test drives and everything.

    Maybe....

    For sure, post up when it starts in earnest !!!

    I test drove 3 MY's of MB 250 BT's @ local MB dealerships before a dealer actually had one configured (one on his inventory) that came close to what I actually wanted. So what was a 3 MY "wait", turned into a 12 min sell/buy, when it became apparent to the dealer's management that I was serious or to me that they were.

    Not that you should want or need 2015 GOLF products !!!! . BUT they have examples of Turbo's TSI gasser's, TDI's even EV's , 2 manuals, DSG, etc., etc.

    The 2015 Jetta has 2 gassers, gas hybrid, TDI's, etc., etc. !!!!!

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2015
    Persecute minorities (20% EXPORTABLE diesel to ZERO % RUG/PUG, 5% diesel PVF) to benefit the majority (95% RUG/PUG users) . Balance of payments also, not to mention better profits and taxations.

    https://autos.yahoo.com/news/diesel-users-shut-gas-plunge-142100510.html
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Poor VW just can't get a break.

    If it helps, I have to reorder propane tomorrow and it'll be delivered in a diesel truck.

    That reminds me, gotta call for another solar quote tomorrow from the other local company here.
This discussion has been closed.