Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

1281282284286287473

Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    gagrice said:

    Houdini1 says: Yes, I believe it is a scam. The ones pushing it are making money off of it. It is part of the world wide one government move and income redistribution scheme



    IF and that is a very large IF, the leaders of the MM/GW/CC cult were convinced of what they are trying to sell US, they would live a much cleaner life. Private Jets, limousines, and multiple McMansions, does not say "I am a friend of the Earth". Or that "I believe everyone's carbon footprint is contributing to GW". The blatant hypocrisy of Flim Flam men like Gore and DiCaprio, say scam, snake oil, stupid gullible Americans.

    I would agree! The WALK does not match the TALK. I am more incline to give more credit to the WALK. The WALK is a complete and almost total indicator the TALKERS don't even believe their OWN SCHTICK !

    So for example, I do not fault AL GORE/ L DiCaprio one bit for flying in, chartering or even OWNING a private jet or 6. It is probably CYSTAL clear the TALK is NOT lock step with the WALK.

    On the other hand there is trouble in (HAZEL) NUT land .

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/in-the-land-of-sweets-turkish-nutcracker-plays-out-1417807394?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

    Diesel Plug-In?

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20141205/COPY01/312059978/audi-q7-will-be-vw-groups-1st-plug-in-diesel
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    Why DIESEL?

    This might provide a philosophical take, or be a eye glazer.

    ...“The fact that oil prices have collapsed as much as they have is directly attributable to the shale revolution.”

    As Mr. Papa reads the global market, the price slump is the result of “a bit more production” that has made all the difference—an additional million or so barrels of new oil daily amid world-wide demand of about 92 million barrels a day. Some of that is “unanticipated supply coming out of places such as Libya,” he says, but the major driver is U.S. shale oil."... (app PLUS +1 ONE percent % , my sic)

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/joseph-rago-the-oilman-to-thank-at-your-next-fill-up-1417822381?mod=trending_now_5

    For all the Environmental Conservatives that don't like this, to HATE this, you ALL can send the IRS and YOUR state checks for the EXTRA money you might have saved for the price differences in the gals used per year. There we are, a SHAMELESS PLUG.

    IF BO the POTUS doesn't like this, he can get the product ("glut") thrown into the strategic reserve !!! I am sure the demos will love closer to $10 RUG. This of course will help the middle class.

    For my .02 cents, God bless the entrepreneurial spirt !!!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2014
    In ten five years, will the headline be about Musk, and the battery maker to thank at your next fill-up? We're running a "scared electric utilities" thread over in the Tesla Game Changer discussion.

    You dig oil up and burn it and it's gone. You dig minerals up and make a solar system and the sun keeps filling up the tank. Seems like the drillers need to figure out how to convert that "diesel" resource to making plastic instead of making fumes.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    stever said:

    In ten five years, will the headline be about Musk, and the battery maker to thank at your next fill-up? We're running a "scared electric utilities" thread over in the Tesla Game Changer discussion.

    You dig oil up and burn it and it's gone. You dig minerals up and make a solar system and the sun keeps filling up the tank. Seems like the drillers need to figure out how to convert that "diesel" resource to making plastic instead of making fumes.

    They have ! The powers that be wish it suppressed. I know you remember I posted the app 9 ft x 12 ft gasoline and diesel "maker" with the requirement of having a natural gas line in a Hayward, CA industrial site ??

    Well to me here is the thing. IF the "battery" (lithium, hydrogen) is the next go to "thing" energy source, etc.,etc, AND (more importantly) the market CHOOSES (common guys, BUYS them???) BATTERY CARS, say 50% of the PVF, THEN it should take far less oil (albeit SAME to slightly less %) to drop the price of oil FURTHER AND FASTER !!!!

    So I do not see a lot of Democrats to so called liberals BUYING battery to EV cars (or even gas hybrids for that matter) , that even indicate that is a happening SOON !!!! ????

    A LARGE majority of the VERY few that do buy, only want the "special access" for the singe driver in the commuter lanes. ELITISM @ its' RAW FORM?

    Of note, VERY little percentage of ANY municipalities' to state to FEDERAL , Indian Nation, Territories, etc. vehicle fleets are gasser hybrid. So for a small example, as GOOD as a Tesla IS why ZERO TESLA police cruisers?

    Now they are BIG on FORCING people, but in terms of their own choices? Come on, less than - MINUS 2.5% gas hybrid after 13 MY's of "the NATIONAL (JFK type) GOAL !!! ???

    Let us not forget a HUGE chunk of the middle class can easily afford MUSK's $85,000 EV !! ??? RIGHT ? Don't forget euthanizing BIG utilities is almost inevitable. It makes me think of that Jack Nicholson (Joker) line in "Batman" ..." When you're making an omelette, you've got to break a few eggs"...

    Don't forget the Democrats have been, are, continue to herd a lot of folk into CITIES (coastal) . (aka, less to no cars.. for the masses of course) Again, the fine work done in Detroit, MI by the Democrats may be instructive. HUGE infrastucture work/s is/are needed to keep the "GRID" on life support, let alone GROW. What BIG utility is going to do the investment, when it is clear the Democrats want to euthanize BIG utilities ??????? What will they do, take a loan out on the art in the Detroit Museum????
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2014
    It's interesting isn't it? Uber started in '09 but really didn't hit critical mass until 2011 or 2012. AirBnb started in '08 and still hasn't hit critical mass.

    Tesla's aim was a $30k SUV in 2013. Now it's looking like it may get here in late 2015, but no one thinks that price point will be met. But the Leaf is there with a MSRP just under $30k. Think of the impact a 300 mile range will have on the status quo.

    So yeah, lots of eggs are getting broken and the early adopter stage is just about to meet the real green crowd - the green in your billfold.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2014
    I think OPEC is trying to bankrupt shale oil---that's the game I see going on here. OPEC can eat a lot more losses than North Dakota. Short term the american consumer spends that extra $400 a year on xBox and iPhone---long term, a very uncertain future.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    Well yes you have to ask the small question (that has a MASSIVE LOGISTICAL CONSEQUENCE) why do you want a HUGE BATTERY factory in the NEVADA high desert ( some would say in the middle of nowhere, so they can get easily to ,...SOMEWHERE ), when you can have a LOCAL 9 ft x 12 foot RUG/PUG /ULSD chemistry lab local to .... YOU. (i.e., your fuel station actually MAKES your fuel)

    SIDEBAR: Don't forget natural gas is normally part of a/the citiy's infrastructure.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A Tesla model S is no more "cutting edge" than a VW diesel car. They are both ancient technology spiffed up for the 21st century.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014

    A Tesla model S is no more "cutting edge" than a VW diesel car. They are both ancient technology spiffed up for the 21st century.

    I do not think anyone made "that" to those claim/s, nor has forgotten both "ANCIENT " histories. (Certainly not I, nor have I heard you make that claim) Indeed it has taken a lot of technical innovations to "spruce them up".


  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    stever said:

    It's interesting isn't it? Uber started in '09 but really didn't hit critical mass until 2011 or 2012. AirBnb started in '08 and still hasn't hit critical mass.

    Tesla's aim was a $30k SUV in 2013. Now it's looking like it may get here in late 2015, but no one thinks that price point will be met. But the Leaf is there with a MSRP just under $30k. Think of the impact a 300 mile range will have on the status quo.

    So yeah, lots of eggs are getting broken and the early adopter stage is just about to meet the real green crowd - the green in your billfold.

    OR not?

    Will This Electric Audi Crush Tesla Motors' Model X?
    By John Rosevear | More Articles | Save For Later
    December 6, 2014 | Comments (2)

    http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/12/06/will-this-electric-audi-crush-tesla-motors-model-x.aspx
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2014
    Another 300 mile range car. But I want to see one as cheap (really, cheaper), than a Leaf.

    Speaking of Audis:

    Audi Q7 will be VW Group's 1st plug-in diesel (autonews.com)

    Oh, and to Shifty's point:

    Raise tax to thwart OPEC’s ploy to sink industry (Columbus Dispatch)

    The taxes would be used to rebuild the roads, making them nice and smooth for my low clearance EV. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    Too funny, tragic, BANKRUPT !!! The 8 year Democratic POTUS poisons ALL the wells by Saul Olinsky CHAOS tactics, almost LOATHED to add jobs, running up TRILLIONS of dollars in deficits, and we want to/will listen to ONE unelected republican from Ohio in an op/ed piece to RAISE taxes !!!! ????? ;) No need for fiction, I can't even make this stuff up !!!

    Some time ago, I posted I was surprise to read the average age for a (relatively inexpensive) Honda Civic was 44 years old. My anecdotal model was bought in 2004 for less than 12.6 k new. So IF older folks could barely afford it then, what do you think is the truth NOW with an inexpensive car now being $25,000 ???? RIGHT and there is NO inflation ! ?

    The powers that be (control a crats) will do all they can to push the price of fuel back up for it probably was as much as a surprise to them (damn entrepreneurial spirit) as well as MASSIVE revenue drain to them. With the LOW price of fuel now, the % of tax revenue approaches highway robbery. They still refuse to used monies collected for its stated purpose: ROADS. UPSHOT: dammed if you do/don't.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited December 2014
    If the tax hikes don't result in road improvements, can we have an inquisition and guillotine the politicos and their supporters?

    But seriously, I'd be happy to pay for first world quality roads, I just don't have a lot of faith in the current cronyist lowest bidder system to provide them.

    That cheapo EV would probably come from our most favored trading "partner", be built with stolen or second rate IP, would support corrupt officials many of whom then turn around and buy their way in here, and it would likely create all kinds of local environmental degradation. But I know some don't care about all that.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    More choices for the consumer---love it.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    Here is a perspective us car folks probably don't see a lot.

    Here's What The Oil Cartel Is Up To
    The Economist
    THE ECONOMIST
    DEC. 5, 2014, 2:37 PM

    http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-the-oil-cartel-is-up-to-2014-12
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    That sentence - "Every hybrid or electric car spells lost business for oil producers. Why encourage them?" does stick out at you.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014

    More choices for the consumer---love it.

    To my mind, diesels have the possibility of being sold into a potentially GREATER record numbers market, 2015 (greater than a 14 MY 17.5 M) from the already record market numbers. I think it will be a function of how aggressively the oem's want to bring greater #'s of diesels to market.

    So for a weird example, it will be interesting to see of the quad 15 GOLF's that all 4 iterations won, the car of the year award, what % DIESEL GOLF's will ultimate hit the market. @ 17 to 25% diesel %'s, I think they have less to prove. So they can set any target between that and almost hit the snooze alarm.

    Personally, I think it will be interesting if they set HIGHER target %'s. But that is strictly from a "horse race" point of view.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    More choices for the consumer? In terms of a cheapo EV from a sketchy background, don't forget to include the negative externalities. A lot has been forgotten in the endless quest of low price at any cost, sometimes masquerading as "choice".
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    @ruking1, I could see a 30/30/40 split in the next decade.

    Want a truck and want to tow? Diesel. There's 30% of the "passenger" car market.

    Want to run around a lot on electric? Hybrids and EVs for 40% of "daily drivers". Maybe a few tenths of a percent will be hydrogen cars.

    The rest will stick to gassers for whatever reason.

    That's just my guess for new vehicles; the used fleet will continue to be ~95 % gassers for a long time.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    Why raise taxes, just let the Feds conjure up a couple more trillion out of thin air to fix the infrastructure. Not much diff. between a debt of 18 trillion and 20 trillion, and at least we would have something to show for it.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Diesel cars please.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    stever said:

    @ruking1, I could see a 30/30/40 split in the next decade.

    Want a truck and want to tow? Diesel. There's 30% of the "passenger" car market.

    Want to run around a lot on electric? Hybrids and EVs for 40% of "daily drivers". Maybe a few tenths of a percent will be hydrogen cars.

    The rest will stick to gassers for whatever reason.

    That's just my guess for new vehicles; the used fleet will continue to be ~95 % gassers for a long time.


    I think that observation is what things should have been all along MINUS- the ANGST and the plethora and multitude of obstacles. !!! JUST having the passenger vehicle fleet] @ 30% diesel will SEVERELY curtain barrels of oil needed for 95% to 100% RUG/PUG vehicle fleet. This might be like HUH ????? to most folks. Really it is all in the ratios of the math, by th EIA.gov graph, etc.. They really do a crappy job by way of explanation. Again, I have posted it many times in the past. But here is ONE adaptation: What Does One Barrel Of Crude Oil Make?

    http://www.sanjosegasprices.com/crude_products.aspx

    So if EV gets to be say 10% to 15% (dreaming, if you ask me and I probably would not be a buyer) that would be ANOTHER SERIOUS barrels of oil curtailment. Keep in mind this SEVERE drop in the price of a barrel of oil is due to a ONE PERCENT over supply.

    However, I think the UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES really expose all the LIES, false hoods, etc etc. @ EVERY LEVEL (way too numerous to detail) , in just this one apropos title:

    Could Gas Drop To $1 A Gallon?
    By Douglas A. McIntyre December 7, 2014 8:25 am EST

    http://247wallst.com/investing/2014/12/07/could-gas-drop-to-1-a-gallon/

    Makes my $1.85 per gal mantra look like UNDERAMPING !!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    But that's not necessarily the case. Many plants producing electricity for EVs use natural gas.

    EVs aren't going anywhere past their driveway without fossil fuels to juice them up.

    stever said:

    That sentence - "Every hybrid or electric car spells lost business for oil producers. Why encourage them?" does stick out at you.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2014
    Fast forward to the next decade though. Somehow I don't see solar or wind demand or build-out shrinking in spite of cheap oil. $1 a gallon or $.15 cents a kwh still pales in comparison to "free".

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014

    But that's not necessarily the case. Many plants producing electricity for EVs use natural gas.

    EVs aren't going anywhere past their driveway without fossil fuels to juice them up.



    stever said:

    That sentence - "Every hybrid or electric car spells lost business for oil producers. Why encourage them?" does stick out at you.

    I think it is hard to argue that EV is NOT COAL, NUCKCLEAR, DRIVEN (65%).

    The other issue is say the enviromental conservatives can wave their magic wands and get rid of the 65%. which even if they had 100% cooperation would be a literal miracle. They would fight tooth and nail to BAN new natural gas fired plants !!!!! However, you see none of them volunteering to live in teepees.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2014
    The economics have to be there. Hawaii is a good example. High oil prices make it smart for people to do renewables there. The electric utility fought hard but just threw in the towel. (nasdaq.com)

    Across the pond, the chaussure has dropped:

    Paris mayor announces plans to ban diesel cars from French capital by 2020 (theguardian.com)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    World economies would do better to note what France does and RUN the opposite way.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Most of Texas power is already natural gas derived--hardly an environmental, liberal state.

    And those who say "Drill Baby Drill" don't mean in their backyard either.

    No one lives in teepees because the buffalo are gone. It's not a teepee world anymore, and someday it won't be a fossil fuel world.

    100 years ago, coal and steam and horses drove everything.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2014

    And those who say "Drill Baby Drill" don't mean in their backyard either.

    You must mean Exxon CEO Tillerson. Funny how people suddenly become "green" when someone else's buffalo is being gored in their backyard. :D (USA Today link)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well you know you don't have to be Gandhi in order to talk about being nice to others---the mere dialogue is worth it. A man who advocates EVs, TDIs or hybrids while driving a Dodge Viper is still influencing things in a positive way, as is the man who puts a solar panel on top of his castle.




  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    But it's still hypocrisy, and deserves recognition for what it is. People who won't practice what they preach are always suspect. There are often other motives at play. Good for thee, not for me.

    Kind of reminds me me of the guilted types in my area who preach some things but won't live them.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Not necessarily. I wouldn't want our president to be driving himself around in a Tercel to pick up heads of state at the airport for instance.

    Nor would I expect all the members of my local creek clean-up crew to never use plastic bags at home.

    Attempting to enforce some sort of ideological purity on every aspect of life gets extremely tedious and contentious and is IMO a useless waste of time when trying to solve actual problems.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014

    Not necessarily. I wouldn't want our president to be driving himself around in a Tercel to pick up heads of state at the airport for instance.

    Nor would I expect all the members of my local creek clean-up crew to never use plastic bags at home.

    Attempting to enforce some sort of ideological purity on every aspect of life gets extremely tedious and contentious and is IMO a useless waste of time when trying to solve actual problems.

    Now you are practically noting how TEDIOUS and CONTENTIOUS HEARING this stuff is from the "holier than thou" set and has always been. In most instants, it is FAR from helpful. To know that it is not being done by them or they are even doing the COMPLETE opposite is even far worse. Perhaps this article can highlight how the TALK doesn't match the WALK and vice versa.

    http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/12/07/pentagon-to-defense-contractors-youre-doing-it-wro.aspx

    UPSHOT: so until something / some things change/s, NOTHING will.

    So for another example, Al Gore was VPOTUS, ( not sure what part- first or second reign) when he and the Clinton, et al, set up the agreements for Communist China to build and MAINTAIN COAL plants !!!!! ?????? Needless to say, it continues today and will probably continue into the DISTANT future. So let me ask, WE are going to allow nuclear power plants like .... IRAN ???? Help avowed enemies by transferring energy technology?

    Rates @ least a deniers, denier denial, eh?

    For that matter, nuclear power plants in Europe are of US origin. Not that I consider it an issue.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2014
    Every hero has feet of clay if you dig hard enough. It's a fruitless game of pots calling kettles black.

    I think most automakers are in for the long haul, and blips in fuel prices are not going to deter their longterm plans.

    I'm quite excited about these new lightweight diesel engines, and also about progress being made in diesel cold-start issues. The 2015 diesel is going to be a very refined piece of technology.










  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited December 2014
    Kind of a disingenuous comparison though, isn't it? I wouldn't want the POTUS to drive himself in anything, too risky. Besides, didn't Barry have a 300C and a Jeep or something before hitting the public eye and going "green"?

    To preach something and not have it good enough for your personal consumption is hypocritical. To expect others to do something you'd never want to do yourself is likewise. These people doing the preaching aren't solving problems, they are usually lining their already overfilled bank accounts, or compensating for irrational guilt. Eurocrats like the reactionaries in France have a long historical record of behaving via the latter.

    Not necessarily. I wouldn't want our president to be driving himself around in a Tercel to pick up heads of state at the airport for instance.

    Nor would I expect all the members of my local creek clean-up crew to never use plastic bags at home.

    Attempting to enforce some sort of ideological purity on every aspect of life gets extremely tedious and contentious and is IMO a useless waste of time when trying to solve actual problems.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2014
    Modern lives are too complicated, modern technologies too complex, to insist on some level of utopian purity for every scientist or philosopher or futurist or entrepreneur who posits alternatives.

    Men of god do not live in hovels with the poor; men of science still refuse to walk under ladders; new age gurus still eat ice cream and yell at people and organic farmers still truck their produce in a F250 diesel dually.

    and it will be ever thus.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited December 2014
    stever said:

    Fast forward to the next decade though. Somehow I don't see solar or wind demand or build-out shrinking in spite of cheap oil. $1 a gallon or $.15 cents a kwh still pales in comparison to "free".


    Nor do I see the price of electricity going down with Solar and Wind. Look at the states and countries leading that charge. California and Germany. California has the highest electric rates in the nation. I am paying 37 cents a KWH if I go past 421 KWH per month. Even with no AC and all CFL/LED lights and new appliances we always get into the top tier rate. Our bill averages under $100. My neighbor across the street averages $400 because his wife wants the house at 70 degrees when it is 90+ outside. So looking at 37 cents per KWH for any EV I would own I did some research and this is what I found:

    For a 2012 Nissan Leaf, its average rated efficiency of 99 MPGe translates to 34 kilowatt-hours per 100 miles. Just multiply that by your electric cost.

    That means it would cost me $12.58 to travel a maximum of 100 miles. Of course that is ideal miles level no AC or heat. I just filled my Touareg and got 24.73 MPG. I paid $3.05 per gallon for diesel. Cost to get an actual 100 miles was $12.33. Hmmmm, I think I prefer the Touareg TDI over a Leaf left by the road after 80 miles. If you drive the Leaf like I drive the Touareg you will be darn lucky to get 45 miles on a full charge. If you work the night shift, own a nice solar array that can charge you up during the day. Maybe they are practical as a commuter.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited December 2014
    Utopian purity is a red herring. There's a difference between suggesting or lobbying for and simply demanding alternatives, too.

    And people who want the masses to live one way but refuse to live that way themselves will continue to have about as much credibility as "more equal" Soviet era cronyists shopping in private stores filled with western goods while everyone else lines up for their yearly orange.

    Buses/tin can EVs and shoebox housing for you, big energy guzzler and silly large house for me - and I'll make undeserved money selling the story to you. The French had the right idea in dealing with crooked idiots about 225 years ago, too bad they'll never get it together enough to do it again.

    The farmer remark is especially odd - that F250 diesel dually, assuming it is a modern maintained vehicle, is probably the most efficient way of transport - maybe even run it on biodiesel.


    Modern lives are too complicated, modern technologies too complex, to insist on some level of utopian purity for every scientist or philosopher or futurist or entrepreneur who posits alternatives.

    Men of god do not live in hovels with the poor; men of science still refuse to walk under ladders; new age gurus still eat ice cream and yell at people and organic farmers still truck their produce in a F250 diesel dually.

    and it will be ever thus.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2014
    Ironically it isn't ecological at all. Per mile per tomato per gallon of diesel fuel, it is far more fuel efficient, and a lesser carbon footprint, to ship a boxcar full of tomatoes to Safeway than to truck 10 crates of tomatoes to a farmer's market.

    But the farmer's hypocrisy is offset by the fact that he is part of a local economy and also that his tomatoes taste better.

    Like I said, everything is way more complicated that media rhetoric would have us suppose.





    fintail said:

    Utopian purity is a red herring. There's a difference between suggesting or lobbying for and simply demanding alternatives, too.

    And people who want the masses to live one way but refuse to live that way themselves will continue to have about as much credibility as "more equal" Soviet era cronyists shopping in private stores filled with western goods while everyone else lines up for their yearly orange.

    Buses/tin can EVs and shoebox housing for you, big energy guzzler and silly large house for me - and I'll make undeserved money selling the story to you. The French had the right idea in dealing with crooked idiots about 225 years ago, too bad they'll never get it together enough to do it again.

    The farmer remark is especially odd - that F250 diesel dually, assuming it is a modern maintained vehicle, is probably the most efficient way of transport - maybe even run it on biodiesel.




    Modern lives are too complicated, modern technologies too complex, to insist on some level of utopian purity for every scientist or philosopher or futurist or entrepreneur who posits alternatives.

    Men of god do not live in hovels with the poor; men of science still refuse to walk under ladders; new age gurus still eat ice cream and yell at people and organic farmers still truck their produce in a F250 diesel dually.

    and it will be ever thus.

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    gagrice said:

    stever said:

    Fast forward to the next decade though. Somehow I don't see solar or wind demand or build-out shrinking in spite of cheap oil. $1 a gallon or $.15 cents a kwh still pales in comparison to "free".


    Nor do I see the price of electricity going down with Solar and Wind. Look at the states and countries leading that charge. California and Germany. California has the highest electric rates in the nation. I am paying 37 cents a KWH if I go past 421 KWH per month. Even with no AC and all CFL/LED lights and new appliances we always get into the top tier rate. Our bill averages under $100. My neighbor across the street averages $400 because his wife wants the house at 70 degrees when it is 90+ outside. So looking at 37 cents per KWH for any EV I would own I did some research and this is what I found:

    For a 2012 Nissan Leaf, its average rated efficiency of 99 MPGe translates to 34 kilowatt-hours per 100 miles. Just multiply that by your electric cost.

    That means it would cost me $12.58 to travel a maximum of 100 miles. Of course that is ideal miles level no AC or heat. I just filled my Touareg and got 24.73 MPG. I paid $3.05 per gallon for diesel. Cost to get an actual 100 miles was $12.33. Hmmmm, I think I prefer the Touareg TDI over a Leaf left by the road after 80 miles. If you drive the Leaf like I drive the Touareg you will be darn lucky to get 45 miles on a full charge. If you work the night shift, own a nice solar array that can charge you up during the day. Maybe they are practical as a commuter.
    IF we got 45 miles on a 34 KWH charge, the daily commute (54+ miles) could not be done without mid trip and start or finish or both recharging. In effect, we'd charge a minimum of 10 times per 5 day week. It would make NO environmental, practical as well as economic sense. I am not sure how three people in the car would affect electrical consumption. So let me just say I do not think it will ADD miles between charging.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    This is far afield from the diesel topic, but I am looking forward to getting the "anecdotal REAL WORLD" reports of the upcoming EV ( Tesla) CUV's in the mountains (my nexus of interest, the SOS/DD area trips).

    I have read that winter charging/fueling can "environmentally/ naturally " LOSE 33% MINUS - (100 miles on a 300 mile range charge (not sure what range they are claiming for the new CUV) . I am also not sure of its loss of winter efficiency. SO then in theory, IT can go 200 miles, IF there are no other range affecting issues (i.e.. winter inefficiency), on a 209 miles trip, aka app 9 miles SHORT. Running on M/T is not my idea of a good time. I have yet to see any refueling stations in the mountain destination area/s, which can provide an intellectual, as well as practical problems.

    IF I used a LEAF, the math tells me I will need app 2.1 charges (to a more probable of 4.64) of unknown duration + app 3 hours PLUS on the road for a trip that takes now between 2.75 to 3.25 hours, more in winter obviously UP to 10 hours) . That of course is assuming no environmental leakage. One should also factor in unseen and seen RANGE affecting issues.

    Needless to say @ 33 mpg*26.4 gal tank = app 870 miles range (w 1 fill) the advantage?.... DIESEL. (per mile driven: FUEL... goes without saying, unless EV "fuel" is FREE.

    TMI Sidebar:

    Not to rain on anyones parade, but it might be eye opening for one to run the anticipated capital costs for a solar system through a lump sum future value (or something like that) financial calculator. (in my case/example $30,000 and 44 years B/E)

    @ 10% in 44 years that is more than $ 2.3 M. I think I will go after the 10%.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Fuel efficient, but how will that food be by the time it reaches the store in a much less direct manner? Part of efficiency is condition. Not everything can be transported on the slow boat. Better to be hauled by a large modern diesel truck than by a gasoline truck, or a fleet of smaller gasoline vehicles.

    But that is kind of a red herring once again. The idea remains the same - if someone doesn't practice what they preach because what they preach isn't up to their standards, but should be sufficient for everyone else, they are hypocritical, and suffer from severely diminished credibility. This is very relevant when it comes to being "green" and the transport options suggested by the usually well-paid, detached, and untouchable reactionaries. Many anti-car people around here don't want to give up a car themselves - but everyone else should.

    Ironically it isn't ecological at all. Per mile per tomato per gallon of diesel fuel, it is far more fuel efficient, and a lesser carbon footprint, to ship a boxcar full of tomatoes to Safeway than to truck 10 crates of tomatoes to a farmer's market.

    But the farmer's hypocrisy is offset by the fact that he is part of a local economy and also that his tomatoes taste better.

    Like I said, everything is way more complicated that media rhetoric would have us suppose.




  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    fintail said:

    Fuel efficient, but how will that food be by the time it reaches the store in a much less direct manner? Part of efficiency is condition. Not everything can be transported on the slow boat. Better to be hauled by a large modern diesel truck than by a gasoline truck, or a fleet of smaller gasoline vehicles.

    But that is kind of a red herring once again. The idea remains the same - if someone doesn't practice what they preach because what they preach isn't up to their standards, but should be sufficient for everyone else, they are hypocritical, and suffer from severely diminished credibility. This is very relevant when it comes to being "green" and the transport options suggested by the usually well-paid, detached, and untouchable reactionaries. Many anti-car people around here don't want to give up a car themselves - but everyone else should.



    Ironically it isn't ecological at all. Per mile per tomato per gallon of diesel fuel, it is far more fuel efficient, and a lesser carbon footprint, to ship a boxcar full of tomatoes to Safeway than to truck 10 crates of tomatoes to a farmer's market.

    But the farmer's hypocrisy is offset by the fact that he is part of a local economy and also that his tomatoes taste better.

    Like I said, everything is way more complicated that media rhetoric would have us suppose.




    For the sake of argument,let's call it a "RED HERRING".

    However it may in fact depend on ones' time frame. The area where "Silicon Valley), CA is in a county that was once a "FARMING" community. They don't call this area in CA the LAND of FRUITS and NUTS for no reason (other than insults to two minority groups) . The county followed a "drive the farmers out policy" and for the tomato farmer's example, they successfully drove out the FARMERS ( a pretty famous local fresh and canned tomato, tomato paste brand/operation) to name just one. So it might be a case of BLAMING the wrong folks here (FARMERS??)

    F/F to NOW and who knows how much transportation costs are per tomato and can, and from who knows where tomatoes come from. Indeed now "LOCAL" farming is all the rage, albeit WAY more EXPENSIVE. So why was it gotten rid of by the county in the first place? Mark my words, that "kind of farming might be against the law in the not too distant future. Even as the same folks that drove out farmers in the first place talk about cutting the carbon foot print.

    In more upbeat news, you have got to love the consequences of cheaper oil ???

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/here-are-5-global-problems-cheaper-oil-may-fuel-2014-12-08?page=2

    Or as the article says, enjoy it while you can ! ?

    Think of ALL the poor folks you make suffer with less oil, way higher mpg and getting off the "oil addiction" !!!
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    dudleyr said:

    How does the c-max do for mpg compared to the Passat? That is if you were to drive both for the same commute.

    The Passat is going to win big time on the highway. It will get over 40 MPG at 80 MPH. My C-Max would probably be mid 30's there. I don't drive that fast on the highway, and I can get early to mid 40's at around 70 MPH.

    In town, The Passat would get maybe 33, but you might have to drive carefully. The C-Max can do 40 in town without too much effort. But if you put your foot into the engine, the Passat will do better than the C-Max - you have to drive a hybrid correctly to maximize the effectiveness of the gas/electric system. With a diesel you just stomp on the gas (within reason).
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    stevedebi said:

    ruking1 said:


    ...
    IF we got 45 miles on a 34 KWH charge, the daily commute (54+ miles) could not be done without mid trip and start or finish or both recharging. In effect, we'd charge a minimum of 10 times per 5 day week. It would make NO environmental, practical as well as economic sense. I am not sure how three people in the car would affect electrical consumption. So let me just say I do not think it will ADD miles between charging.

    Actually, you would do what I do with my Energi if I'm more than 20 miles from home - just let the gas engine cut in. You are speaking of a Volt, right? The ones I have trouble with are the pure electrics - I just wouldn't want a car that is so constrained on the range.

    In any case, one has to figure the best value for the commute and then match it to the car. In my case, with the electric prices, a fairly short commute, and considering the old MPG of my Escape Hybrid, I am saving about 120 bucks per month, even at the current gas prices, over the old vehicle. Of course, that is at my .17 cent per KWH pricing here in LA. I had an enormously complex spreadsheet worked out before I bought, examining the variables.

    But for the moment there is a bigger advantage - for the next 5 years I can drive solo in the carpool lane. Should my commute increase in the near future, that is going to be invaluable to me.

    Not to mention I love the car and it's technology - an entirely different story...
    Are you really saying EV cars can coast UP twisty mountain two lane roads @ passing speeds when hitting 2 lanes each way passing sections ???? Too bad I can't do that in diesels !! :p Oh the wonders of Area 51 research. B)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Stevedebi says: I don't think your numbers are right. I think you are misled by the EPA ratings that it takes 34.7 KWH to equal a gallon of gas. You can't just take the MPGe number and divide that by 34.7. That isn't the way it works.


    Those are not my numbers. I did not use the EPA source as it made no sense. I did get them from a pro EV source:

    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082737_electric-car-efficiency-forget-mpge-it-should-be-miles-kwh

    Actual Nissan owners have far worse numbers. As low as 27 miles on a full charge. When used at CA highway speeds in the summer with full AC operating. From one such user:

    I've been giving a lot of thought to the fact that Nissan clearly fell short of expectations with the Leaf's range. While I blame it heavily on being oversold by the likes of my well-intentioned yet dangerous friend Paul Scott who can't keep quiet about the "100 mile range" that he gets while crawling 28 miles each day in the slow lane, in the temperate west side of LA, proudly hypermiling.
    As a start, let's just look at what it means to take care of your battery. This means don't charge it to more than ~80% of capacity and don't discharge below 20%.
    - This takes the 73 mile range down to 73 X 80% X 80% or 46.7 miles
    Next, let's assume that after 7 years, the capacity is expected to be down to 80% of the new, maximum.
    - This takes the 46.7 miles down to 46.7 X 80% or 37.4 miles for 'battery-kindness"
    What this means is that if you drive the benign EPA driving cycle, you shouldn't buy a Leaf if you expect to need to drive more than 37.4 miles between charges every day. Conveniently, for me, my daily drive between charging opportunities is 37 miles :-)
    The question people really want to know, however, is what normal people will get. Then the question becomes: What is normal. Let me suggest that one view of normal that Paul Scott, for example sees daily are the 99.9% of the people on I-10 that are driving faster than Paul Scott. Let me dock the range by another 80% due to driving a lot faster.
    - This take the 37.4 mile battery-kind range down to 37.4 X 80% = 30 miles

    Now, if you're in a place other than the California beach areas that have real temperatures, you'll need to knock it down another 10% for heavy A/C or heat
    - This takes the 30 miles down to 30 X 90% = 27 miles

    This also means your commute, without charging at work, needs to be less than ~13 miles each way.

    http://www.plugincars.com/real-world-leaf-range-27-38-miles.html
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    LOL ! A little snippet on why they smoke and mirror around the subject of REAL WORLD MPG's ???

    Let's see 27 miles from a "rated" full charge of 100 miles???? Not to let "reality" interrupt, but that is a MINUS - 73% shortfall. So now the cost question is what's the real full charge KWH (and cost per KWH) to go 27 miles?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Stevedebi says: My current raw MPG is 84.47, but my MPGe is currently 65.14. Electric costs down here in LA are 17 cents at tier 2 (after 1000 KWH), somewhat less before that. I use peak pricing to estimate my costs. So far my cost per mile is 6.67 cents including energy costs.


    Los Angeles Department of Water and Power is the big gorilla that tells Sacramento to shove their stupid alternative mandates. SDG&E is their kicking boy that is fined for not having as much renewable energy as the wonks in Sac demand. So who gets screwed the consumer. I used 994 KWHs during the hottest month this Summer. My bill surged to $248. Really gets to me when my kids keep their homes in Indiana warm and cool for a fraction of what it costs here. 5.87 per KWH. That said with the cost per mile you posted of 6.67 per mile, would be 14.52 cents in San Diego.

    SDGE.jpg 346.1K
This discussion has been closed.