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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014

    Well it can't be all bad for Mazda. The Mazda3 has one of the highest resale values in the industry.

    84 MPG in a Passat? My friend's 2012 gets 41 mpg. What's he doing wrong?

    Not going 55 mph? :D You will have to ask the Taylor's and Wayne Gerdes, et al. They are the anecdotal acknowledged experts !! Me? I am happy with 36 mpg on a H EPA of 33 mpg. Yee HAW !! Can I get better? I am sure!! Will I? I am not changing anything, so ...probably not. (so sad ;) But. I am aware the board is probably getting tired of the SOS/DD mpg/ normal mpg repetitive reports. ;)

    So yes, better mpg for diesels are not a flash in the pan, but REAL normal. BORINGLY normal. The range of mpg over gassers is greater also.

    I really am getting the feeling the "code" in the Mazda 6 TDI diesel issue is Mazda is having equipment upgrades and associated cost issues. To me, one signpost is (ONLY) 184 # ft of torque vs say, now 400# ft, (diesel) aka, LIKE MODEL.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, okay. I thought this was some data with rigorous testing--sounds like a hypermiler website.

    The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence"--the plural of anecdote is.....more anecdotes.

    Sure I'd be happy with 41 mpg anyday.

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014

    Oh, okay. I thought this was some data with rigorous testing--sounds like a hypermiler website.

    The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence"--the plural of anecdote is.....more anecdotes.

    Sure I'd be happy with 41 mpg anyday.

    I have "sandwiched " your post with my responses. But I think the other example is one model (Euro) having 10 engine/drive train options !!! ??? As a practical matter one can closer select ones mpg targets, by getting a more or less miserly engine drive train choice.

    Here might be a future 10% + solution So on a 43 mpg TDI that would put mpg to 47mpg +.

    Lost the link, but s 2012 (Japanese) patent on a turbo charge that generates electricity for a 10% boost in efficiency. So a twin turbo set up could handle both exhaust gasses and electrical issues.

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This is great news for diesel owners in So CA. I just filled at Costco. Brand new pumps and each one has a green diesel dispenser. Here is the great part. $3.05 per gallon. I only had 300 miles on the tank, but had to try it out. Not to mention using my Costco AMEX card gets me 3% more off. So about $2.97 a gallon. Still no improvement on mileage. 24.7 MPG. mostly city freeway driving. RUG $2.79 and PUG $3.01.

    http://www.sandiegogasprices.com/Costco_Gas_Stations/Chula_Vista/75686/index.aspx
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098

    I meant the scientific debate, not the political one. Sorry for the confusion.

    I should have worded that differently, you're right!

    What I meant is that American business (Fortune 500 et al) and scientists are teaming up and not waiting for Washington DC to catch up to the realities of Global Warming.

    So you know, if science buys in, and business buys in, what have you got left but inevitably throwing in the towel or maintaining an outlier position? Momentum is not in favor of the denier at this point in time except in one area (see below)

    Of course, you can still get elected as a Global Warmer denier---I'm not disputing that at all. In fact, it just happened!

    The denier or opposing position still has legs, yes, and quite a bit of credibility among the non-scientific, non-business community. Point taken, and the contrary position is real enough in that respect.

    A lot of people are going to have egg on their faces if the climate doesn't actually start warming soon. Anyone, scientist or otherwise, who speaks in opposition to the scientific orthodoxy is immediately silenced. We don't read about the scientists who disagree with the popular theories because the press won't publish them, and they fear to be active in scientific publishing lest their careers falter. That is not the scientific method I remember from my education.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    Many newspapers won't even publish letters from their readers (if they have any) if the letter is critical of the global warming scam. Fair and balanced huh ?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736

    What's he doing wrong?

    starting the engine and driving in any manner other than downhill?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    gagrice said:

    Here is the great part. $3.05 per gallon

    That's 40+ cents cheaper than I've seen it anywhere (did yet another airport run to El Paso today and I was looking). Is that a special introductory price? Hope it lasts, for your sake.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2014
    2014 is on target to be the warmest year ever recorded. CO2 is now up to 396 PPM, 142% over mid 1800s readings. (1 deg. F higher than 1961-1990 average, according to International Business Times). The UK has the warmest year since records were kept, that is the year 1659. (according to The Telegraph)

    I think these stats are what's finally getting the world's businesses and governments attention.

    This trend in GW could foretell entire new industries in the making!

    These events remind me of when automobile emissions were first linked to "smog" in the Los Angeles basin in the 1950s.

    Many people couldn't grasp it as plausible until such time as they could visually see the effects (rather than merely breathe them).

    At that time, California wasn't going to wait for the Feds to do something about it---and being the largest market for cars in the US, California made the automakers do something about it.

    All in all, I think that struggle gave us much better automobiles.

    So we should be optimistic that GW will produce some positive results as well for the types of cars we will be driving in 10-20 years.
    stevedebi said:

    I meant the scientific debate, not the political one. Sorry for the confusion.

    I should have worded that differently, you're right!

    What I meant is that American business (Fortune 500 et al) and scientists are teaming up and not waiting for Washington DC to catch up to the realities of Global Warming.

    So you know, if science buys in, and business buys in, what have you got left but inevitably throwing in the towel or maintaining an outlier position? Momentum is not in favor of the denier at this point in time except in one area (see below)

    Of course, you can still get elected as a Global Warmer denier---I'm not disputing that at all. In fact, it just happened!

    The denier or opposing position still has legs, yes, and quite a bit of credibility among the non-scientific, non-business community. Point taken, and the contrary position is real enough in that respect.

    A lot of people are going to have egg on their faces if the climate doesn't actually start warming soon. Anyone, scientist or otherwise, who speaks in opposition to the scientific orthodoxy is immediately silenced. We don't read about the scientists who disagree with the popular theories because the press won't publish them, and they fear to be active in scientific publishing lest their careers falter. That is not the scientific method I remember from my education.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2014
    What would really be ironic would be the development of some new "cracking" technique that would let diesel create cheap electricity for EVs chemically with zero particulates or other emissions.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    stever said:

    gagrice said:

    Here is the great part. $3.05 per gallon

    That's 40+ cents cheaper than I've seen it anywhere (did yet another airport run to El Paso today and I was looking). Is that a special introductory price? Hope it lasts, for your sake.

    The prices around Costco are down under $3.10 for ULSD. Costco sets the low price for gas in San Diego and now diesel. San Diego has about the widest range in prices of anywhere we travel. You can pay from $2.73 to $4.29 for RUG. Up to $4.59 for diesel. It is not uncommon to see over 50 cents difference just across the street. Down to 12.3 cents a mile in a luxury ride. Even with $2.79 gas my Nissan PU costs 17.5 cents per mile to drive. No wonder I have only put about 2500 miles on it over the last year.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450

    2014 is on target to be the warmest year ever recorded. CO2 is now up to 396 PPM, 142% over mid 1800s readings. (1 deg. F higher than 1961-1990 average, according to International Business Times). The UK has the warmest year since records were kept, that is the year 1659. (according to The Telegraph)

    I think these stats are what's finally getting the world's businesses and governments attention.

    This trend in GW could foretell entire new industries in the making!

    What I meant is that American business (Fortune 500 et al) and scientists are teaming up and not waiting for Washington DC to catch up to the realities of Global Warming.




    No doubt business is jumping on the bandwagon. They see $$$$$ coming their way if they play along with the scam. When you say the World you don't really mean the Whole World? China, India, Australia, Canada, Russia are not going along. The deal Obama just made with the Chinese is a joke. The only countries going along are looking for US dollars for their fascist leaders to pocket. Like Buffett said only a fool would invest in Wind energy without all the government subsidies and tax breaks. Quite frankly I am sick of paying the highest electric rates in the Nation so CA can look like they are into alternative energy.

    http://nlpc.org/stories/2014/05/21/how-warren-buffet-fleeces-consumers-taxpayers-through-wind-energy

    It is not an accident that 9 of the 10 big corps that pay $zero taxes are energy companies.

    “I will do anything that is basically covered by the law to reduce Berkshire’s tax rate,” Buffett told an audience in Omaha, Nebraska this weekend. “For example, on wind energy, we get a tax credit if we build a lot of wind farms. That’s the only reason to build them. They don’t make sense without the tax credit.”
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Actually, USA gets about 4% of its energy from wind, so I think Buffet is wrong on that one. It makes sense using the longterm view--but most speculative investors are not longview people.

    Germany gets 17% of its energy from wind and solar. That's pretty impressive. And they make the most cars and trucks in the EU, too.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    gagrice said:

    This is great news for diesel owners in So CA. I just filled at Costco. Brand new pumps and each one has a green diesel dispenser. Here is the great part. $3.05 per gallon. I only had 300 miles on the tank, but had to try it out. Not to mention using my Costco AMEX card gets me 3% more off. So about $2.97 a gallon. Still no improvement on mileage. 24.7 MPG. mostly city freeway driving. RUG $2.79 and PUG $3.01.

    http://www.sandiegogasprices.com/Costco_Gas_Stations/Chula_Vista/75686/index.aspx

    That falls under YIPPEE !

    I hope ULSD Costcos are in the cards for NOR CAL !!!

    Filled today for $3.49 @ an INDY for just shy of 31 mpg (30.52)

    RUG $2.95,

    PUG $3.15.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Hard to believe those are California numbers. Cheapest diesel I saw today was $3.47.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450

    Actually, USA gets about 4% of its energy from wind, so I think Buffet is wrong on that one. It makes sense using the longterm view--but most speculative investors are not longview people.

    Germany gets 17% of its energy from wind and solar. That's pretty impressive. And they make the most cars and trucks in the EU, too.


    All is not rosy in Germany either. Her comes the coal.

    What has been obvious to me for a long time now appears to have become obvious to many others: Germany's energy policy is a confused mess. Germany's energy revolution is, in the words of New Scientist, "on the verge of collapse." And it was all rather predictable. Ramping up renewables quickly, building more coal power plants, closing nuclear power plants, and doing very little to reduce carbon emissions. Vaclav Smil, perhaps the most trenchant observer of energy transitions, rightly called this "totally zany."

    However point out these realities and you will quickly be labelled "anti-renewables," such is the vacuous nature of too much debate on energy policy. Germany however has been set up as a symbol of the 100% renewables nirvana state to come, so I guess this is understandable. Yet, despite what many believe, Germany has a target of sixty, not one hundred percent, renewable energy by 2050, and is now building more coal power plants than any European country. Again, pointing out that Germany is building coal power plants puts me at risk of getting called "anti-renewables." Mumbo jumbo rules the world.

    http://theenergycollective.com/robertwilson190/335806/germany-shows-renewable-energy-has-failed-and-other-strange-ideas
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014

    Actually, USA gets about 4% of its energy from wind, so I think Buffet is wrong on that one. It makes sense using the longterm view--but most speculative investors are not longview people.

    Germany gets 17% of its energy from wind and solar. That's pretty impressive. And they make the most cars and trucks in the EU, too.

    Actually 17% is almost complete and utter total underperformance. This is especially true as Germany has made the decision to take "NUCK CLEAR" off line !!! Also, IF Germany and the rest of the EU does not want to be intimidated by the threat of loss of Russian natural gas, they will have to compensate for that % also. Wind and Solar @ 17% is totally inadequate.

    I am no GEO Political Wonk, but PUTIN canceled the pipeline through Bulgaria (aka to Europe) . He cut a new deal with Turkey, just recently.

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    stever said:

    What would really be ironic would be the development of some new "cracking" technique that would let diesel create cheap electricity for EVs chemically with zero particulates or other emissions.

    LOL !! Vee have ways of cutting things like that OFF @ the kneez. ;)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The electricity conundrum. I got it, I ain't got it. Or My EV is not charged up this morning what happened last night?

    http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21587782-europes-electricity-providers-face-existential-threat-how-lose-half-trillion-euros
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2014
    Re, "I am no GEO Political Wonk, but PUTIN canceled the pipeline through Bulgaria", Putin lost his funding. Due to international politics.

    "A new report from financial advisory and asset management firm Lazard finds that the unsubsidized cost of solar and wind power has already reached parity with conventional fossil fuels in many parts of the United States."

    Even if you don't believe this study, more will be coming down the pipeline. (extremetech.com). Wind and solar are already disruptive and it's going to get more interesting.

    I'm a bit surprised that LNG hasn't disrupted the shorthaul trucking industry more. Burning diesel in crowded cities or in school buses just doesn't make a lot of sense.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Global warming a scam?

    I suppose the moon landing was faked too.

    Thank that global warming conspiracy for the great mpg that all cars get now compared to the not very distant past. ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    gagrice said:

    The electricity conundrum. I got it, I ain't got it. Or My EV is not charged up this morning what happened last night?

    http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21587782-europes-electricity-providers-face-existential-threat-how-lose-half-trillion-euros

    Good article. I am amazed in the sense that @ 33 to 35 cents per KWH that is 2 to almost 3 times what NorCA is @ !! Nor CA is downright oppressive percentage wise. Most folks reading it would have the deer in the head lights GLAZE over. Again @ best a charge will not give you what RUG/PUG will give you let alone diesel. So really a charge per mile driven can cost 2 times over that ! It is also less reliable !
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2014
    Germany has this problem because it relied on market forces. It needs to regulate coal.

    It's not what the German government has done, it's what it hasn't done.

    Their basic goal to stop running a country on an obsolete business model is a good one.

    I don't think any rational person should root for renewable energy to fail.

    US automakers bet on emissions regulations to fail in the 1970s, and they lost big time.

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014

    Germany has this problem because it relied on market forces. It needs to regulate coal.

    It's not what the German government has done, it's what it hasn't done.

    Their basic goal to stop running a country on an obsolete business model is a good one.

    OK ! No hand slap for double post, but I have to scratch my head as the article in the Economist is saying that is EXACTLY why it is so problematic !!!! It would be hard to imagine how much more chaotic the landscape would be should a more significant portion of the passenger vehicle fleet were switched from 50% + diesel and 48% RUG/PUG to plug in electric !!! ??? World Wars were fought over far lesser reasons !!!

    Yet for some reason it does not jump out @ folks why Russia getting closer to a secular Islamic Country (Turkey) should raise alarm bells !! ??

    I think it might take a few Euro utility bankruptcies and brown outs to the European utility grids to get some of this stuff sorted out. We will probably be asked to intervene,ala US bank crisis.



  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't think any rational person should root for renewable energy to fail.

    I don't think we should cheer for the demise of alternatives. I think they should be researched and implemented when they make economic sense. The way it is now is just corporate welfare. If you lived in So CA you would remember the thousands of wind generators falling down and rusting away from the 1970s energy crisis. Drive out among the 1000s of wind generators that have come up over the last 6-8 years. Many are sitting idle. Many have blades gone. And the fact they are killing birds and bats should be a concern for anyone that is an environmentalist.

    California is the WORST example, mandating 33% alternative energy with fines for consumers when the mandate is not reached. Now they want the tapped out energy consumers to put in storage facilities for the excess solar and wind generated for use in off peak times. I could bite the bullet and build my own system and get off the grid. I am still screwed by the highest taxes in the nation.

    http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2013_12_9_Thou_Shalt_Store
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Big wind should die.

    I'm not wild about the idea of grid dependent big solar either.

    Interesting turn of phrase - "axis of diesel", even if the story really isn't much about diesel. (theaustralian.com.au)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited December 2014
    Big wind should die.

    I'm not wild about the idea of grid dependent big solar either.


    I think there are some good uses for solar. Great for covering parking lots, home generation, even factory solar as VW has set up. When you set up a solar plant out in the Mojave that is frying birds and not even close to the promised output.

    And when you talk to some environmentalist about the bird and bat issue with wind they say it is worth it to get off of fossil fuel. The real issue it is my tax dollars putting up the wind and solar and now with nukes it is my electric bills that will pay the $4 billion to dismantle San Onofre. Very frustrating living in CA. Most places you can keep your home cool for a reasonable amount. Not in CA. I am considered a very low user for my size home. Yet I get up to Tier 4 @ 37 cents per KWH. And it is entirely because of the State mandates.
    End of Rant.

    PS
    Your Aussie piece requires joining.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2014
    Sorry about the Aussie link; it works (still) in Chrome for some reason. You could try a search for "Cheap oil drives power away from the axis of diesel" but it's a bit of a lame article anyway. :p

    I don't mind tax breaks just so long as you phase out the breaks for stuff I don't like. No more r-u-king, I wanna be king.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    I think in the context of diesel vehicles, we are in effect experiencing proverbial tectonic shifts in energy and markets. A lot of the lies to fairy tales the various interested to disinterested parties have told, still tell and will continue to tell are coming to account/light. Again it is like the proverbial lifting of the stones to see all the insects that had been hiding under it running in panic "scared to death".

    So we haven been are and probably will continued being told to get better fuel mileage, aka, buy cars that get better fuel mileage. The other side to that is the powers that be do EVERYTHING to keep OUT cars that CAN get GOOD MPG ! So when a 12 year old diesel "like -model" does way better, we are then surprised that no one ACTUALLY buys it, in any real numbers and percentages to encourage more products to go down this path !!!! ??? Then we wonder why there is a dearth of higher mileage products !!! ??? I guess this is the stuff of what FEDERAL investigations are made of !!! LOL so it never happens again.... blather...... The real clue might be: no one REALLY wants them to actually GET better fuel mileage. But we do want to SAY we do.

    Here is an easy example . The 2003 VW Jetta TDI was able to easily get 48 to 52 mpg. The 2003 Toyota PRIUS was lucky to get 40 to 45 mpg. The next year it was against th law to sell new 2004 VW Jetta TDI's in CA that did not meet the USED car category (7,500 miles) The 2004 Toyota Prius was elected proverbial KING/QUEEN of the hill with 60 mpg C/ 50 H !!! Those EPA numbers went on to be proven phony and barely hit 40 to 45 mpg. Both sold in lackluster numbers. Enviro Cons vilified diesel cars. After 10-12 years diesels are actually being mentioned as GREEN. Prius continues to be a niche vehicle also.

    Another example: solar. The 2003 VW Jetta TDI came with a solar panel that you could stick to inside of windows dash boards with suction cups connected with the cigarette lighter attachment. Is this a good or bad idea? What other oem in those last 15 or so model years has still continues to put solar panels or chargers on their vehicles? Prius? Volt? Civic? etc?

    Powers that be have been telling us about the complete and utter SHORTAGE of oil, gas, natural gas, electrical. YET we are in literal and figurative total to "obscene" abundance !! And it can be so or done in the figurative and almost LITERAL snap of the industrial fingers.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2014
    One of the Prius models offers a solar roof.

    With all the electronics continually draining your battery these days, a charger would be handy, if you could get it near the sunshine while your car sits idle in your garage for two weeks. Would be more practical for those times you park at the airport for two weeks and return to a dead battery.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    stever said:

    One of the Prius models offers a solar roof

    With all the electronics continually draining your battery these days, a charger would be handy, if you could get it near the sunshine while your car sits idle in your garage for two weeks. Would be more practical for those times you park at the airport for two weeks and return to a dead battery.

    Too funny, ONE out of what ? 580 models of CARS !!! ??????? ;) Over 12/13 model years??? The progress is GOLLY, JUST .... OVERWHELMING !

    OEM's have had 24/7 current draws built in for literally DECADES. Like this is ANY surprise to ANYBODY x 2 , they ALSO continue to add 24/7 current draw systems and components.

    It almost seems like a revolutionary thing would be to have a car battery than can last longer than 3/4 years. !!!

    In my experiences, battery longevity is down from 8 to 10 years !!!!

    A bit divorced from the main points are the fact that a lot more folks can have the potential to spend much more time in and electronic connection and use time in automobiles. (logistical consequences)

    So for a diesel information tidbit, diesel electrical starting systems require higher levels of current draw. Needless to say, the systems ( in this example the BATTERY) are more robust than gassers.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    ruking1 said:



    Here is an easy example . The 2003 VW Jetta TDI was able to easily get 48 to 52 mpg. The 2003 Toyota Civic was lucky to get 40 to 45 mpg.

    I have not heard of a Toyota Civic before. New model? ;)

    I do notice on fuelly that the 2014 Jetta TDI average is 39.7 mpg. Meanwhile the 2014 Toyota Prius is at 51.1 mpg. Don't forget to add in the up to 50% premium for diesel on top of that.

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    dudleyr said:

    ruking1 said:



    Here is an easy example . The 2003 VW Jetta TDI was able to easily get 48 to 52 mpg. The 2003 Toyota Civic was lucky to get 40 to 45 mpg.

    I have not heard of a Toyota Civic before. New model? ;)

    I do notice on fuelly that the 2014 Jetta TDI average is 39.7 mpg. Meanwhile the 2014 Toyota Prius is at 51.1 mpg. Don't forget to add in the up to 50% premium for diesel on top of that.

    Easy correction if you were actually following the line of thought in the paragraph: Prius.

    They have never been comparable cars, The only nexus was "similar" fuel mileage.

    VW got the message loud and clear as evidenced in the 2009 TDI MY, (almost massive changes, @ very least massive increase in torque 52%, among others ) if you have been following the points in my line of thought. Also it took the better part of DECADE and several redesigns for Prius TO FINALLY get UP to 50+ MPG. The VW switch did not GAIN it (% wise) any Prius drivers, or lose VW drivers to Prius.

    I am guessing I was an EXTREME outlier population to even consider a Prius vs Jetta vs Corolla vs Civic etc for a commute car. Most would not consider seriously a diesel. Again, evidence 95% gassers with less than 2.5% diesel CARS. In fact gas hybrids are not even close to 2.5% of the PVF even after 13 my's as environmental " lead dog /iconic " status.

    The real key here would be what would a PRIUS diesel get, specifically over 51.1 mpg? We don't really know and for obvious reasons, so 30% better swag would put that @ 66.43 mpg.

    I think the truth is the enviro cons have made TDI's out to be enemies. In fact they are not and never have been.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Or the test where a heavy comfy E250 equaled Prius mpg in real world driving.

    And then there's the elephant in the room regarding Prius mpg - you only get it while driving a Prius. That can be a price to pay.
    ruking1 said:

    <

    Easy correction if you were actually following the line of thought in the paragraph Prius.


    They have never been comparable cars, VW got the message loud and clear with the 2009 TDI MY, (massive increase in torque 52%) if you have been following the points in my line of thought. Also it took the better part of DECADE and several redesigns for Prius TO FINALLY get UP to 50+ MPG

    The real key here would be what would a PRIUS diesel get, specifically over 51.1? So 30% better would put that @ 66.43 mpg.

    I think the truth is the enviro cons make TDI's out to be enemies, when in fact they are not and never have been.

  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    edited December 2014
    Prius diesel would indeed be very interesting. Mileage would be astounding. If they really went all the way they would make the car out of aluminum as well. That combo would get incredible mileage, and the lighter weight would make it peppier. Sure it would cost $3-4,000 more, but would still be well under 30k.

    Diesel Prius might even beat the mpg of a Honda Insight. Wayne Gerdes got that at 164 mpg over 2,250 miles on one tank of gas. He was only able to eek 110 mpg out of a Prius over 1,400 miles on one tank. Of course that was a 2005 Prius so he may do better in the current generation.

    I figured you meant Prius - hence the wink.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    fintail said:

    Or the test where a heavy comfy E250 equaled Prius mpg in real world driving.

    And then there's the elephant in the room regarding Prius mpg - you only get it while driving a Prius. That can be a price to pay.

    ruking1 said:

    <

    Easy correction if you were actually following the line of thought in the paragraph Prius.


    They have never been comparable cars, VW got the message loud and clear with the 2009 TDI MY, (massive increase in torque 52%) if you have been following the points in my line of thought. Also it took the better part of DECADE and several redesigns for Prius TO FINALLY get UP to 50+ MPG

    The real key here would be what would a PRIUS diesel get, specifically over 51.1? So 30% better would put that @ 66.43 mpg.

    I think the truth is the enviro cons make TDI's out to be enemies, when in fact they are not and never have been.

    RIGHT ! Comparable mpg, VERY DIFFERENT cars !!

    For the kind of driving I like to do ( and probably more importantly actually do), yes, advantage DIESEL.

    There is no doubt in my mind a lot of Prius drivers have liked the adjustments they have had to make (notably, figurative "raw egg" between right foot and throttle) to get the best fuel mileage out of its' platform.

    I just happen to find them (those adjustments) mind numbing. In many ways, it is also unsafe, as it encourages me to fall asleep and/or follow distractions, like fiddle with all the electronics in the Prius.

    So, if anyone thinks I can get better mpg out of a 12/14 Toyota Highlander Hybrid AWD ( @EPA C 27/H 28 Fuelly.com reports 25 mpg 6 vehicles) vs a VW T TDI and/or MB GLK 250 BT, just provide one and I will put it through the paces. I can drive it like the diesels. Or I can drive it with raw egg between right foot and throttle.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2014
    ruking1 said:

    I think the truth is the enviro cons have made TDI's out to be enemies. In fact they are not and never have been.

    Diesels burn oil and emit particulates. EV fuel only pollutes at the generation source, and lots of that power really is "clean" (to coin a buzzword).

    So many envirocons just figure diesel to be a lateral move and a placeholder at best.

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Perhaps the forcing of the elitist attitudes has been the most destructive. Documentation of the disasters might convince some of being BIASED ;)

    Al Gore ICONIC environmentalist former VP gets around in private jets.
    (Do as I say not as I do? ) Prior to that got around in GOVERNMENT (private/exclusive) JETS.

    MTBE, unmitigated disaster.

    EV ? COAL and NUCLEAR fired 65%.

    Ethanol, price and utter disaster

    RUG/PUG? More consumptive than diesel.

    It goes on and on and on.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Would you like Al better if he flew around in one of these? (Wired)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Business jet carbon footprint of world's total carbon emissions is 0.04%. Commercial jet is 3.0%.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    stever said:

    Would you like Al better if he flew around in one of these? (Wired)


    Fitting the Chinese should get the cream of the crop diesel plane. After all they have passed US as the number one economy in the World. Amazing what you can accomplish when you tell the poor work or starve.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    The E250 gets OK mileage. 33.9 on Fuelly. Not anywhere near a Prius though. I would like to see any E250 that has gone 51.1 mpg over its lifetime like the average for a 2014 Prius.

    Interesting how pointing out one outlier can make a global truth to some people.

    Kinda like saying I am well fed so world hunger is not an issue or (to go back to a previously mentioned example) like saying I am cold so global warming is not an issue.

    And I read that test. They put the Prius to its largest disadvantage (up to 115 mph - a felony in many states and hardly real world) against the Mercedes best advantage, and the Prius still got better mileage.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098

    2014 is on target to be the warmest year ever recorded. CO2 is now up to 396 PPM, 142% over mid 1800s readings. (1 deg. F higher than 1961-1990 average, according to International Business Times). The UK has the warmest year since records were kept, that is the year 1659. (according to The Telegraph)

    I think these stats are what's finally getting the world's businesses and governments attention.

    ...

    True only for certain regions, not on a global scale. Also, the historic data has been manipulated. Shocked me the first time I read of this happening (with sea temperature logs dating from the 19th century), but a lot of the hype one reads is based on data that has been changed from raw data. The hottest year of the last century used to be in the 1930's - before they changed the data.

    As I said, the satellite data doesn't match up, and the mid atmosphere data is completely wrong for the theories (and hasn't been accounted for so far as I've read).

    The CO2 has been going up, but that doesn't mean higher temperatures... that part is yet to be proven. The world may be warming, but I'm not convinced mankind is to blame.

    I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. No point in going into the scientific data in a thread about diesel automobiles!
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    dudleyr said:

    ruking1 said:



    Here is an easy example . The 2003 VW Jetta TDI was able to easily get 48 to 52 mpg. The 2003 Toyota Civic was lucky to get 40 to 45 mpg.

    I have not heard of a Toyota Civic before. New model? ;)

    I do notice on fuelly that the 2014 Jetta TDI average is 39.7 mpg. Meanwhile the 2014 Toyota Prius is at 51.1 mpg. Don't forget to add in the up to 50% premium for diesel on top of that.

    My wife drives a 2014 Passat TDI. Absolutely loves the driving experience. She has a 52 mile round trip highway commute, and is getting about 42-44 MPG. An amazing car. I prefer it for driving, but I opted for a C-Max Energi myself. It's like driving in a video game...
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    How does the c-max do for mpg compared to the Passat? That is if you were to drive both for the same commute.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Sure, I understand. All discoveries of great potential impact take time to digest. Nobody likes a worldview wrenched. It's very unsettling and never a neat little package.





    stevedebi said:

    2014 is on target to be the warmest year ever recorded. CO2 is now up to 396 PPM, 142% over mid 1800s readings. (1 deg. F higher than 1961-1990 average, according to International Business Times). The UK has the warmest year since records were kept, that is the year 1659. (according to The Telegraph)

    I think these stats are what's finally getting the world's businesses and governments attention.

    ...

    True only for certain regions, not on a global scale. Also, the historic data has been manipulated. Shocked me the first time I read of this happening (with sea temperature logs dating from the 19th century), but a lot of the hype one reads is based on data that has been changed from raw data. The hottest year of the last century used to be in the 1930's - before they changed the data.

    As I said, the satellite data doesn't match up, and the mid atmosphere data is completely wrong for the theories (and hasn't been accounted for so far as I've read).

    The CO2 has been going up, but that doesn't mean higher temperatures... that part is yet to be proven. The world may be warming, but I'm not convinced mankind is to blame.

    I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. No point in going into the scientific data in a thread about diesel automobiles!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    dudleyr said:

    Prius diesel would indeed be very interesting. Mileage would be astounding. If they really went all the way they would make the car out of aluminum as well. That combo would get incredible mileage, and the lighter weight would make it peppier. Sure it would cost $3-4,000 more, but would still be well under 30k.

    Diesel Prius might even beat the mpg of a Honda Insight. Wayne Gerdes got that at 164 mpg over 2,250 miles on one tank of gas. He was only able to eek 110 mpg out of a Prius over 1,400 miles on one tank. Of course that was a 2005 Prius so he may do better in the current generation.

    I figured you meant Prius - hence the wink.

    Oh , I get it ! You meant the PIOUS? (as in POPE ) ;) I didn't mean for this to turn into religious discussion. :'(

    Backwardly, Toyota would have to do a TON of reengineering and SPEND really outlier $$$$$'s to make the concept (diesel option) that we are talking about into a reality. I am sure a prototype would be STEEP.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2014
    stevedebi said:

    dudleyr said:

    ruking1 said:



    Here is an easy example . The 2003 VW Jetta TDI was able to easily get 48 to 52 mpg. The 2003 Toyota Civic was lucky to get 40 to 45 mpg.

    I have not heard of a Toyota Civic before. New model? ;)

    I do notice on fuelly that the 2014 Jetta TDI average is 39.7 mpg. Meanwhile the 2014 Toyota Prius is at 51.1 mpg. Don't forget to add in the up to 50% premium for diesel on top of that.

    My wife drives a 2014 Passat TDI. Absolutely loves the driving experience. She has a 52 mile round trip highway commute, and is getting about 42-44 MPG. An amazing car. I prefer it for driving, but I opted for a C-Max Energi myself. It's like driving in a video game...
    We have near identical R/T commute miles (54, 27 one way) and the 09 TDI posts 38 to 44 mpg range (call it 41 mpg, three folks who share driving ) . The pathway is considered one of the top 10 in the country's worse commutes. So your Passat sees app 1 to 2 mpg better per tankful.

    Once in a while I ask them if they want to switch to a Pious and they just look at me like the RCA dog. ;)

    Other news, two TDI's on the 12 clean (POPULAR) green vehicles.

    https://autos.yahoo.com/news/america-s-12-most-popular-green-vehicles--the-not-so-dirty-dozen-204130083.html

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    dudleyr said:

    Global warming a scam?

    I suppose the moon landing was faked too.

    Thank that global warming conspiracy for the great mpg that all cars get now compared to the not very distant past. ;)

    Yes, I believe it is a scam. The ones pushing it are making money off of it. It is part of the world wide one government move and income redistribution scheme
    stevedebi said:

    2014 is on target to be the warmest year ever recorded. CO2 is now up to 396 PPM, 142% over mid 1800s readings. (1 deg. F higher than 1961-1990 average, according to International Business Times). The UK has the warmest year since records were kept, that is the year 1659. (according to The Telegraph)

    I think these stats are what's finally getting the world's businesses and governments attention.

    ...

    True only for certain regions, not on a global scale. Also, the historic data has been manipulated. Shocked me the first time I read of this happening (with sea temperature logs dating from the 19th century), but a lot of the hype one reads is based on data that has been changed from raw data. The hottest year of the last century used to be in the 1930's - before they changed the data.

    As I said, the satellite data doesn't match up, and the mid atmosphere data is completely wrong for the theories (and hasn't been accounted for so far as I've read).

    The CO2 has been going up, but that doesn't mean higher temperatures... that part is yet to be proven. The world may be warming, but I'm not convinced mankind is to blame.

    I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. No point in going into the scientific data in a thread about diesel automobiles!
    Yes, some areas are warming and other areas are cooling. Been doing that for quite a few millions of years now.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited December 2014
    Houdini1 says: Yes, I believe it is a scam. The ones pushing it are making money off of it. It is part of the world wide one government move and income redistribution scheme



    IF and that is a very large IF, the leaders of the MM/GW/CC cult were convinced of what they are trying to sell US, they would live a much cleaner life. Private Jets, limousines, and multiple McMansions, does not say "I am a friend of the Earth". Or that "I believe everyone's carbon footprint is contributing to GW". The blatant hypocrisy of Flim Flam men like Gore and DiCaprio, say scam, snake oil, stupid gullible Americans.
This discussion has been closed.