What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

Mr_Shiftright

I'd probably do more of my own maintenance on a diesel car than on my current MINI, maybe because I understand diesel engines and what they need---but I'd still run into computers and very sensitive fuel delivery systems.

I'd still be tempted to consider a diesel as my next car. I can't imagine getting a 2013 hybrid repaired once it's out of warranty.

ruking1

I think the mention of the DIESEL's HPFP issues (while absolutely TRUE) can be woefully UN balanced, until one mentions that the GASSERS in the US markets are experiencing it in far greater volume and percentage than ... diesels, given the gassers are 95% of the passenger vehicle fleet, defacto diesels are 5%.

Here is merely one OEM example.

GASSER hpfp issues

Why the leap was made to the hpfp being a diesel issue "ONLY" defies the LOGIC and the facts.

Mr_Shiftright

I think it's because diesel fuel can get pretty wonky---it can gel, it requires excellent filtration, etc. Also diesels are often associated with VW, and that somewhat tarnishes their reputation.

crkyolfrt

Nowhere did I say, or even allude to HPFP having issues..
Or were you referring to a post somewhere 6 months ago?
I was simply expressing that diesels can be still quite a complicated IC engine.

As for potential issues, they have their own set of rules (compared to gas IC) with broad boundaries. I am reminded of one of the brands..I think was VW, who had a recall for the injector lines breaking at or near the fuel injectors, posing a fire hazard. It was determined that the break was from vibration due to the incredibly high power pulses of having exceptionally high inline pressures, combined with the high CR shake that a diesel exhibits. Very few design engineers could have predicted this.....well wait...that isn't what I meant to say...rather..they did have vibration handling design built in to the original line rack mounting areas...but it wasn't until more miles were racked up by the buying public that the design weakness revealed it wasn't up to snuff.
VW stepped up of course.

ruking1

My response was in response to Shiftright's post, and not to you or yours. That should also answer your second question.

I also am not sure where later model diesels got the reputation of being uncomplicated. Later models have never been. Just as later model gassers have not been. I think the "last uncomplicated "GASSER that I can remember was my 1970 VW Beetle bought in 1971 USED. That was of course 43 years ago.

On the hpfp vibration issue, the 2009 Jetta TDI (one of the ones I would be concerned with) was brought into the local VW dealer (2011 ish?) for the #2 fuel injection line "resonance issue" TSB,: SR 23J9/V5. The fear here was the natural resonance would create stress and degrade the #2 fuel line over time. This increases the chances of fuel leaks over a very small number of parts: fire basically: NHTSA C ID# 11V490000.

ruking1

..."I think it's because diesel fuel can get pretty wonky---it can gel, it requires excellent filtration, etc. Also diesels are often associated with VW, and that somewhat tarnishes their reputation."...

RUG/PUG vs D2 really have different ways they can get wonky. In that sense, both HPFP's require "excellent" filtration.

Mr_Shiftright

True, true, but diesel fuel has more problems to deal with--it is inherently unstable, and is also subject to bio-growth, mold, wax build up, etc. It's definitely more of a pain than the usual gasoline issues.

xwesx

Original as far as I know. It only had about 55,000 miles on it when I finished the drive from Alaska to Oregon with it back in October 2007, and the only non-fluid related work on it was the replacement of a fuel line that burst just before we left on the trip (fantastic timing on that one!).

My FIL said that the had replaced some wear components in the suspension, engine hoses, and something about the injectors (which was the biggest issue he had with the truck prior to the glow plugs going south). So, overall it's been extremely reliable given the miles on it now. But, those 300K miles were put on it in three years (2008-2010)!

They weren't getting consistent enough work in piloting to make ends meet, so they went a different direction and started driving the trucks instead of piloting them. Now, they rarely need to drive a passenger vehicle (pickups included).

gagrice

Regular old RUG has a much better shelf life than the current E10 RUG we are forced to put in our Gas Tanks. With diesel there are additives to prevent diesel from getting wonky. I don't think there is much you can do with E10 to prevent problems with it sitting for long periods. I know it screws up my chipper and weed whacker.

crkyolfrt

My response was in response to Shiftright's post, and not to you or yours. That should also answer your second question.


I didn't see shifty say anything about HPFP systems having issues either..

Relax, ruking, breathe ..not everyone is here to jump on anything diesel negative..certainly not me..
Send that defense mode off for a nap

ruking1

..."and very sensitive fuel delivery systems. "...

"I didn't see shifty say anything about HPFP systems having issues either.. "

I guess that would really depend on what he meant about "very sensitive fuel delivery systems", eh?

ruking1

Well, the old fairy tale starts off with: once upon a time when I lived in the north east with homes using close to bunker home heating oil, heating water for steam (radiator) heating..., I do not recall the landlord doing anything to the periodic fuel oil delivery systems.

Now that is not to say there are not some folks who for whatever reason like to store up to 55 gal plastic drums of bio diesel in their garages !!!!! ??????? :confuse: :sick: :lemon:

Mr_Shiftright

Well your furnace doesn't have to operate at 75 mph in the rain and snow and wild temperature variations, and, in fact, has its own built in fuel-warmer!

Maybe you should have this discussion with some truckers, because they meet issues with diesel fuel all the time and they know what's up like nobody else does, including me.

I've owned diesel cars and diesel boats, so I'm just conveying what I had to deal with. I did lots of filter changes, bio-cide, cetane additives, water traps, injector additives and fresh fuel changes, and I had pretty trouble-free performance.

crkyolfrt

Again..you're seeing something I'm not I guess..
I did see this: "They also run extremely high compression ratios and are fuel-sensitive buggers" though..
You just added the "delivery systems" to support your reply..instead of sending that defensiveness off for a nap like I suggested!! :P

crkyolfrt

It sure does And using a product like Stabil, doesn't seem to create miracles on the storage shelf off season either. I have a number of gasoline and diesel engines in my fleet. The small engined seasonal ones are the most fussy. I think because of their small capacity..chainsaws and weed eaters/blowers all have super small tanks. So I have a regime here now...I literally go around every two months or so and replace the gas in those rarely used items with new gas. eg. gas coming out of my generators gets used in something else with bigger capacity and used more often.

And coincidently, I thought I had this issue sorted, and even with these efforts, I still had to tear down the carb on my Yammy generator just yesterday..the knees are still screwed..
I think I forgot to syphon and refreshen the gas in it once a year ago, and that was all it took to screw it up. i HATE ethanol :mad:

Speaking of which..any electrical engineers here? My 2400 watt'r is defaulting into "overload" cycle (which requires shutting the engine off to reset) when attempting to power a 14 amp Skil saw. I can't even get it to stay by pressing the saw power button momentarily a number of times letting it build revs progressively, thinking that that would address the electric motor surge on start up. It will still run an electric heater, which I think is a 1200 or even 1500 watt. It'll easily power up two 5 amp electric drills powered on at same time..so I wonder what is up with the saw? Any ideas? It's a fairly fancy 2400 watt generator..uses inverter tech, very PC friendly and super quiet. It's been my standby for all things 'light' when the power goes out..TV, PC, fridge/freezers etc.
And it still will run all these things fine, but recently started to balk at anything with a draw of more than about 700 watt. Asking it to start that saw is not outta line at all I wouldn't think..it is a 2400 watt, limme check the amp rating..16.7. Just went and got my old Makita saw which is 13 amp. It used to start it fine. But not this 14 amp Mastercraft, even...like I say.. switching the on/off momentarily a number of times letting it build revs progressively. Ya, the 13 amp tried to snuff it but didn't. Maybe the extra 1 amp is the issue after all. But something else and this one I am not sure if I bought it new this way..the 12 voltput says 19.96 volt and still 16.9 volt when powering an old 12 volt headlight beam. I wonder if there is a voltage reg that works on both sides of AC and DC? (it says to never run DC at same time, but don't know why..I always assumed this was idiot-proofing wording so someone doesn't try to run full 6.5 amp 12 DC and 16.7 amp 120 v AC at same time). 120 side is 124.8 volt under no load.

I thought this was because of a dirty carb..(it is how I found out it was gummed a bit) cuz for the past few years all it ever did was light duty. But one day I tried to plug in a 700 watt heater and it snuffed the engine and threw the overload light on. After cleaning the carb..I just went and tried it on that same heater and it is fine now.

ruking1

I just merely lifted/repeated the quote. I didn't ADD anything.

ruking1

For me anyway the BIGGEST potential issue is the much larger current draw during winter. But the funny thing has been in 10 seasons of literal instant start during winter (snow). My batteries (3) have crapped out in perfectly warm and seemingly unstressed weather periods. :confuse: Two crapped out after I parked in the garage.

I have never had bad D2( in 255k miles). On the other side, (255k or 510k total miles) I have never had bad RUG/PUG. If I did for EITHER, it did NOT affect running.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah you did...you translated "fuel-sensitive" into "fuel pump" :P

ruking1

So if you are saying the fuel pump is not sensitive?.... what is the fuss about ?????? :surprise:

crkyolfrt

The fuss is.. that you are not quoting accurately, then feebly try to defend it!

I am quite confident that shifty would not concede that the fuel pump is not sensitive to the fuel that's intro'd to it.. AND YOU KNOW THAT! Quit trying to have to be right all the time! We're all friends here, especially those who support diesel on this forum..quit trying to have to constantly feel you gotta defend! Sheeshh..

ruking1

I quoted accurately.

Of course I know that, I was one that said that hpfp's fuel pumps fail more on gassers than diesels. Even as he says diesel fuel can be more wonky. The issue was balance. I quoted accurately. Shifty either said what I cited/lifted or he didn't. I do not think I lifted it from someone else and attributed to him.

I think you must missed the full frontal attack drivel posts by another frequent poster. I believed the host's removed it. Why he feels he needs to attack close to everything and twists everything are known only to him. So if you are not of that ilk, I will just leave it at that.

cdnpinhead

Send that defense mode off for a nap.

Nice concept, but I don't see it ever happening.

crkyolfrt

I didn't miss it. But I am seeing a theme. Your comment about 'twisting' is pretty ironic if you ask me..I know..you didn't and won't..anyway..

I like your posts ruking..just for the record, ok? although your excessive short forming drives me crazy sometimes to the point that I just get tired of looking up what they mean...when I spend more time looking up the shortforms than absorbing the content of your post.

That said tho, I don't like mis-quoting and putting words in other's mouths and I guess I am a bit sensitive to it. I know that you seem to not see where you mis-quoted and that you actually believe that you didn't..whatever..peace still just the same..

ruking1

..."Nice concept, but I don't see it ever happening."...

Moving right along.......

ruking1

Not including shipping, ( which then makes a lot more sense to buy locally as shipping has probably been applied) (Peak) A Blue Def 2.5 gal container can cost anywhere from 26.58 to 11.75, on Amazon! Even usage is all over the place.

Mr_Shiftright

I just read an obscure fact--that Blue Def is consumed at 2% rate of diesel fuel but 4-6% in Europe. I wonder why that is? I thought we were stricter.

gagrice

It looks to me like Wiki compared apples to oranges. This is a good link explaining cost and percentages used in Europe. Trucks use more than cars or SUVs. AdBlue may be part of the reason the newer diesels get better mileage. Notice the cost is about $2.26 per gallon and going down. That is about half the best price charged here. We must be keeping the price of Urea up raising corn for ethanol.

By using SCR technology with AdBlue, DAF have been able to improve the fuel economy which more than compensates for the cost of AdBlue. A fuel saving of 1.5% – 2.0% compensates for the cost of AdBlue and DAF’s SCR engines can give up to 4% fuel savings over their Euro 3 predecessors

http://www.daf.eu/SiteCollectionDocuments/UK/adblue_the_facts.pdf

ruking1

If I do the rough calculations (in the context of your post) the app amount (4.5 gal AdBlue/DEF) consumed (in a V6 TDI 3.0 in 13,500 miles/30 mpg = 450 gals),

was @ app 1%

(= 4.5 gal DEF/450 gals D2 fuel) I have seen estimates of 5 gals ( DEF consumption) in 15,000 miles.

To me what might have been more consumptive (outlier) was break-in was conducted slightly to more aggressively (rpm). While I tried to keep it to 4,000 rpm (max hp specifications, no real advantage torque wise, past 3,000 rpm ) and under, (78% and under of redline) I frequently took it closer to when the computer controlled it :surprise: :shades: I also did aggressive DE accelerations. Speeds were also VARIED.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes they should instruct every American who buys a diesel car on how to DRIVE IT!!

ruking1

..."Yes they should instruct every American who buys a diesel car on how to DRIVE IT!!"...

I am beginning to think that is the REAL issue for the brouhaha with the 2004 Prius and almost any other vehicle folks might be happy to dissatisfied with. This is NOT to say there are NOT problems. There most certainly ARE. The specifications and parameters go unheeded, or unknown. So when the vehicle is not operated within them because of some mistaken assumption or erroneous facts, they are obviously and understandably disappointed.