What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

fintail

I wonder if Cook would pay the personal tax that existed when America was "great" (LOOOL) to offset a corporate tax that competes with money laundering havens and tax shelters. I bet he wouldn't. Economic treachery. I also find it odd that lucky older people who have cashed in on booming real estate markets in areas with strong economies would claim there's a coma. I see it here too.

Is a 200K mile normal gasoline car a bragging right? With a diesel, it's just broken in

ruking1

I doubt even he was alive then? So I'm guessing that "reality" is in your head, not his. I'd guess that America is great NOW, for folks like him, Uncle Warren B. & G. Soros, etc.

fintail

And really great for short fingered inheritance elite real estate trash and crooks who take bribes from Russia, etc. But really, complain about those corporate rates, but ignore the gifts given to the top few otherwise, Trickle down has failed, but I'd wager Cook has reaped insane rewards from it.

He probably doesn't drive a diesel either, maybe a subsidized Tesla.

stever

Some of us don't spend a lot of time detailing our cars, much less rental cars. I hauled some gravel in the back of the minivan last week to fill in some driveway spots that the rains took out. Using cars tends to wear 'em out, even if the engines are going strong (no issues with the Quest V6 at 200k, but the rest of the van was showing its age).

ruking1

The antidote to your "real estate trash" whatever the definition of that can be, is either greater % of real estate ownership in the hands of "non"trash or a nation of more to 100% renters.

Essentially a Tesla is a "throw away" car, despite its cache for being "environmental".

So for example, when I target 250,000 to 300,000 miles for a diesel, there is no isolation /isolation from common "non" diesel normal replacement items, such as; brake pads, rotors, tires, alignment, etc.

stever

All cars are becoming throwaways - look at how fast leasing is growing. People just want a payment and they don't want to maintain a car.

In diesel news, yet another ICE breakthrough that's going to decimate diesels, this time from Nissan. (Reuters)

Borg-Warner says that "diesel growth had reached its peak and that diesel engines as a percentage of total engines produced would likely decline over the long term." At least that's what they are banking on. (Automotive News)

stever

People in Ogden UT want to test diesels for emissions. Got voted down last year, but the issue didn't go away. (Standard.net)

texases

I'll be curious how practical Nissan's variable compression ratio engine is. It's been tried before, but has never made it to production. Being able to vary CR from 8:1 to 14:1 is quite an accomplishment; when you add the turbo it's going to be very flexible.

ruking1

Any predictions on how this Nissan marketing engine wunderkind will take to reach 3 to 5% of the PVF ?

Even if it is "shovel ready" next year, it will take governments full court press/es (Prius like scenarios) & in 15/20 years it might be like the pet rock.

stever

Not sure that people really care that much about torque, and torque will be ample in the new EVs coming down the pike. Too little too late?

ruking1

Right! To me that indicates that there will always be diesel niche market!

ruking1

stever said:

People in Ogden UT want to test diesels for emissions. Got voted down last year, but the issue didn't go away. (Standard.net)

Well, would a ballot for legalizing polygamy has a better chance of passing ?

stever

Niche market -- if people really, really want diesel passenger cars, wouldn't they be buying Chevy Cruze diesels in droves since new diesel VWs aren't available?

ruking1

stever said:

All cars are becoming throwaways - look at how fast leasing is growing. People just want a payment and they don't want to maintain a car.

In diesel news, yet another ICE breakthrough that's going to decimate diesels, this time from Nissan. (Reuters)

Borg-Warner says that "diesel growth had reached its peak and that diesel engines as a percentage of total engines produced would likely decline over the long term." At least that's what they are banking on. (Automotive News)

The only obstacle to that is ZERO worth @ the end of lease, with the payments fully paying for the throw away reality. Barring that, it is a pipe dream.

ruking1

stever said:

Niche market -- if people really, really want diesel passenger cars, wouldn't they be buying Chevy Cruze diesels in droves since new diesel VWs aren't available?

?? In droves is really not the definition of niche. Keep in mind the governments really want to kill diesels!!??

Actually one of the smartest things VW could do is to push for tax credits for all US market penalties & loss of business due to EV switch. Say $25 B as a point to start discussion?

Off topic: Think about it, with less demand for diesel fuel from ship consumption & continued 95 to 98% gasoline consumption, ( the diesel/gasoline per barrel ratios have been posted more than once) the prices of ULSD should be flat to ... declining.

stever

Droves is a poor word choice but I have to go with the car puns here.

Chevy reportedly is making a push to sell the Cruze diesel to diesel fans, since their diesel truck sales are doing fine (per Motley Fool). But we're a year away from learning whether that strategy will work.

gagrice

stever said:

In diesel news, yet another ICE breakthrough that's going to decimate diesels, this time from Nissan. (Reuters)

I wonder how the Nissan engine will compare to the Ford Eco whatsit engine. You can have power or economy, just not both at the same time. If I can't cruise at 75 MPH and get decent mileage, in a heavy luxury SUV, what good is the engine? All sounds like John D. Rockefeller propping up the Gasoline market. RUG is a nasty smelling waste product. For use by the masses that don't mind getting cancer just smelling it a a gas station. And the exposure is twice as high when you have to fill twice as many times. Going to gas stations outside CA is even worse. CA has the nasty fume capturing pump handles. Oregon is good as the attendant pumps gas by law. The consumer can pump diesel as it is not as dangerous.

gagrice

stever said:

Not sure that people really care that much about torque, and torque will be ample in the new EVs coming down the pike. Too little too late?

You and Rocky have high hopes for EVs. I just don't see it until they improve battery technology. It is still not practical for the average car buyer. Even leasing 90% of Americans cannot afford a $100k Tesla with a lousy 270 mile range and hit or miss place to recharge. One Super Charger in San Diego county with over 3 million people. It is inconveniently located at the Tesla repair facility. Read the reviews:

Slow!!!!!. It's in the middle of nowhere. A major destination with one supercharger?. One good thing. Armando's tacos is open across the street

There's a supercharger. No restroom, no restaurants on weekends. Worst. Location.Ever.

A lot of people leave their cars here which gets annoying

gagrice

stever said:

Droves is a poor word choice but I have to go with the car puns here.

Chevy reportedly is making a push to sell the Cruze diesel to diesel fans, since their diesel truck sales are doing fine (per Motley Fool). But we're a year away from learning whether that strategy will work.

I can tell you that Rocky is now a hardcore diesel fan. He loves the Cruze diesel he has leased. Very easy to get 50 MPG on the highway. He plans to get the new one when it is offered in the US. At least until he can afford a Tesla, his dream car.

gagrice

stever said:

People in Ogden UT want to test diesels for emissions. Got voted down last year, but the issue didn't go away. (Standard.net)

And do they plan to use the same sort of test CARB uses? That was real effective. You build your city in a bowl and don't expect pollution to build up? Driving home a week ago from Lake Tahoe. We came down Cajon Pass into San Bernardino and could not see the city. Some of the worst smog I have ever witnessed. Too many people, too many vehicles, Too many ships in the Los Angeles harbor all contribute to the smog buildup against those 11,000 foot mountains. Silly people not smart enough to get out of the mess they are in. One of my fellow workers retired to Ogden Utah. He hated the city from the day he got there. Moved back to MT. I don't think it was the smog factor.

stever

texases said:

I'll be curious how practical Nissan's variable compression ratio engine is. It's been tried before, but has never made it to production. Being able to vary CR from 8:1 to 14:1 is quite an accomplishment; when you add the turbo it's going to be very flexible.

The big question is whether Nissan will put a CVT in their VC-T.

Infiniti's Breakthrough Variable Compression Ratio Engine to Bow in 2018

fintail

A Tesla will indeed be throwaway - I am sure it will be an interesting machine at 10-15 years old. Those environmental impacts are ignored, of course, as they are sent to someone else's backyard.

I wonder if Ogden has a lot of coal-rolling diesel bro-trucks, and if commercial vehicles will be exempt, as always. Sounds like more natural temperature inversion kind of stuff triggering the "moral" issues of the sensitive.

I'll believe the Nissan engine when I see it in real world NA driving use. Will it be saddled to their wondrous CVT? I wonder if MB is in on it, given the Infiniti connection.

ruking1

Speaking of a timely tesla topic! http://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musk-sets-ambitious-goals-at-teslaand-often-falls-short-1471275436

??? I failed to see the lack of motivation, especially since Tesla is rumored to make $34,000 per car!! VW, if memory serves me correctly, on the other Hand makes roughly about $650 per car!? That WAS with the app 25% of total production being diesel?!

texases

I don't see the $34,000/car, they're not making money.

ruking1

I'm not privy to the IRS or other agency documents, private rulings, etc. so I can NOT point to an article that documents this. But Tesla receives massive IRS tax credits, again totaling $34,000 per car.

So whether they make money as the company is really not the point/issue.

Just like GM for a time WAS gubmint motors! Another owner are the unions & union pension funds. It's not hard to see why they benefit from the crushing to demise of say VW. They certainly were able to crush Chrysler from the big three to the big 2.25. Aks less.

texases

You said "Tesla is rumored to make $34,000 per car!! " Very different than getting that amount in tax credits. Where did that number come from?

stever

"ExxonMobil paid just a 15% federal income tax rate from 2010-2012, less than half the official 35% corporate tax rate – a tax subsidy of $6.2 billion. Had $43 billion in profits offshore in 2012 on which it paid no U.S. taxes." (IPS)

Whose ox would you like to gore?

texases

Almost ALL industries pay much less than the federal tax rate of 35%. ExxonMobil is no different.

stever

Yep, and Tesla isn't any different by getting their subsidies.

Or VW for that matter.

Taxpayers duped into shelling out $51M in green subsidies for 'clean' VW vehicles (energycentral.com)

kyfdx

I'm in the 25% federal tax bracket, but my effective rate is under 12%. I'm sure corporations are no different.

henryn

My effective rate is 36%. I'm working contract, and work as "self-employed". I have double social security plus double medicare, which totals out at 15.3% before you even get to income tax. So I save 36% of every paycheck, and send that to the government quarterly. I can only dream about an effective tax rate of 12%.

texases

@stever - I wasn't making a point about subsidies, it was about the 'makes $34,000 per car' statement.

ruking1

henryn said:

My effective rate is 36%. I'm working contract, and work as "self-employed". I have double social security plus double medicare, which totals out at 15.3% before you even get to income tax. So I save 36% of every paycheck, and send that to the government quarterly. I can only dream about an effective tax rate of 12%.

If you did business in California, you would have to pay an additional 13%. So if our math is correct, you'd be paying 49% income taxes.

ruking1

http://www.wsj.com/articles/vw-shares-fall-on-56-drop-in-quarterly-after-tax-profit-1469695131

Speaking of figures, VW results. If I did my math correctly it's a little bit over 2%.

gagrice

stever said:

"ExxonMobil paid just a 15% federal income tax rate from 2010-2012, less than half the official 35% corporate tax rate – a tax subsidy of $6.2 billion. Had $43 billion in profits offshore in 2012 on which it paid no U.S. taxes." (IPS)

Whose ox would you like to gore?

AL'S

stever

I set 'em up and you guys knock 'em out of the park.

@texases, no worries, this discussion is infamous for non-responsive responses. C'mon man, get with the program.

fintail

I'd rather subsidize clean diesels that are relatively affordable than subsidize 100K Tesla toys for the demographic who needs help the least but who has benefited the most from the past 30 years of tax policy, but that's just me. SS and Medicare aren't really income taxes, either.

ruking1

Clean diesels are an absolute no brainer! I think one reason why they want to get rid of them is because they work so very well! It's a no brainer to say the obvious : that the diesel PVF of 3 to 5% are not consuming gasoline; thus structurally needing less crude oil.

texases

I'm all in favor of actually clean diesels. Full AdBlue treatment for midsize SUVs, cars, and pickups, and up. Small cars? Doubt they can compete.

stever

Bit of an oxymoron trying to describe most any energy source as "clean".

ruking1

The small car market is very small and quite competive anyway! As has been said any number of times, it's 25% versus 75% large car to light trucks, PVF. Diesels have competed. It remains to be seen if all OEMs: like VW will continue to compete in the ( razor thin profit margin, affordable) small car market. There's very little $$'s margin in it, even as prices rise faster than small car market customers can afford.

More telling is the slow acceptance oif hybrids and EV in the large car to small trucks category.!

Further it is a totally absurd argument to get rid of gas engines just because FORD, GM, Chrysler make gas pick up trucks that only get 14 miles a gallon or whatever it is. The same holds true for the get rid of diese mantra, because one foreign OEM got caught with hands in the proverbial cookie jar! It is a totally xenophobic, phobic & irrational narrative!

ruking1

Now here's a midsize the large car that could benefit from a 369 # ft of torque diesel engine! https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/auto/2016-volkswagen-passat-28807/

henryn

If they would sell it (the Passat) with the 2.0T, I would already own one. We bought one in 2008, and wanted another one in 2012. Did not exist, so we didn't buy. Still can't buy one. And the 1.8T is NOT comparable.

gagrice

stever said:

Bit of an oxymoron trying to describe most any energy source as "clean".

That includes the guy living in a cave cooking over a campfire. I doubt my Touareg TDI puts out as much pollution as a BBQ grill.

http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2015/07/your-grills-smoky-truth

By the time the EPA gets done with your BBQ grill it will need a $1000 worth of emissions control.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/backyard-burger-and-wiener-roasts-targeted-by-epa/article/2561474

texases

Big issue in Austin - pollution controls on the BBQ restaurants.

ruking1

texases said:

Big issue in Austin - pollution controls on the BBQ restaurants.

Only when it hits one close does one pay attention ! If pollution controls were fully implemented, how much of a precursor will drive up the price of food, eating out? Keep in mind it is only a matter of time before its applied to ALL restaurants! Keep in mind fed $15.00 per hour labor from current local levels will "kill" easily 12.5% to 25% of those restaurants. It could easily double the prices of one order.

If demand falls enough, it draws less folks. Every $ spent locally has an 8 to 1 (one ) multiple effect. So say a BBQ place does $1M per yr. The owners of the place decides it can no longer make it on say VW's profit level of 2 cents on the dollar or $20,000 per year! It kills a 8 to 1 multiplier effect. Austin starts to lose it tourista appeal! One doesnt think it can or will happen ? South Lake Tahoe, years ago as it went on arrogant rule tightening rampage didn't think it could or would happen, until it DID! True to form they couldn't figure out why the jobs all left, RE prices crashed, why the tax revenues all went down?

fintail

Sounds like the reasoning that kept useful emissions equipment from heavy/commercial applications. Gotta be business friendly lol. Re: minimum wage, at least, just adjust it for inflation to equal what the lucky generation was able to experience 45-50 years ago (when such jobs could still fund an education),it's only fair. It won't double the cost of restaurant food, most data I recall was under 10%.

Regarding clean energy, don't tell that to a Tesla or Prius fan! Those apparently run on unicorn burps and emit daffodils.

ruking1

As even you have noted, you've got that bas ackwards. It has absolutely ZERO to do with your "lucky generation mantra".

Here's another easy one. In South Lake Tahoe, CA, burning a wood fireplace in a older home (you know,including you lucky generation mantra housing) is grandfathered in. So for those homes grandfathered in, it costs a minimum of 5k to get a natural gas unit correctly installed, not including permits. Most have more than 1 fireplace. So do you even wonder why those fireplaces grandfathered in aren't converted? Oh and conversion to propane costs even more in the long run? There is a much greater bigger picture view, but another off topic discussion to be sure. Here's a brief indicator China manufacturing wants German robots !? http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-factories-count-on-robots-as-workforce-shrinks-1471339805 @ $14.60 per hour no less!? It's pretty ironic with the workforce of 800 million people, China is singing the blues about not being able to find enough good people to do the work! In the meantime the average US Starbucks barista with a college education makes less than $10 an hour Say that can't be so, !? Howard

You do have the sentiment correct on Tesla/Prius! Tesla sells for $130,000. 2004 Prius sold for $25,000. The competitive car I chose, sold new for less than 13k. So your 10% more is way off, it's more like 92.3%. So don't blame me for your laziness, not running a cheap calculator !

Indeed the 2004 Honda Civic still does what it was bought for 12 years ago. For that matter, so does the 2003 VW Jetta TDI, bought 13 years ago.

ruking1

Behind big oil's curtain, dah... frackers!? http://www.wsj.com/articles/too-big-to-frack-oil-giants-try-again-to-master-technology-that-revolutionized-drilling-1471362741

ruking1

BIG diesel truck emissions ? http://www.wsj.com/articles/obama-administration-issues-final-rules-on-emissions-from-big-trucks-1471363201

If the big diesel trucks upgrades are so "worth it", why not a peep about $$'s, governments will kick in and/or tax credits? Logical conclusion: is it's "worth it" to government when goverment ain't paying for it.!

Given that kind of attitude, I hope the small diesels last a min of 30 years! So 2009/2012/2014 that will be 2039/2042/2044!