What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

I take it the offensive people don't like the resulting (diesel) counterpoints?

ruking1

fintail said:

I picked up the old car today, and my indy mechanic took at look at the E250. He loves it, and said he has been thinking about picking one up himself (as with all of these, depreciation has been fierce). He says so far the 4cyl diesel has had very few issues.

I would also suspect the six cylinder 3.0 L diesels have had very little issues also? @ 32,000 miles, 4 drivers are very happy with the 14 MB GLK 250 BT's 2.1 L engine & its 7 speed AT. The combination seems to work very well and so far is pretty much bulletproof.

I would also suspect that some of the reasons why depreciation is so high are both the premiums and mechanical, electronic complexities of its many options. I'm sure they are all nice when they are working, but can be expensive pains to repair.

fintail

I know the 6 cyls are known to have a leak point - I can't remember where. He also said it's a good idea to change the oil in these turbo cars in between the yearly factory service intervals, which in his opinion are spaced at the outer limit of engine health. I think the 2.1 is the ideal unit for anything but the largest vehicles - it is barely down on power from the 6cyl, but has better economy.

I think the biggest price issue is that the MSRPs on most German cars are simply high. Of course, nobody pays sticker even when they are brand new, but some of the sticker prices can almost seem like pranks. They quickly depreciate to a more realistic number. And as you say, people fear them for their complexity, as maintenance will be higher than a Civrolla.

ruking1

On the 3.0 L MB BT, would that be an increased potential for a head gasket leak ? Yes the torques are 369/458 # ft of torque.

On the 10,000 miles recommended OCI issues, the (diesel) oil that MB specifies and uses ( Mobil 1 EPS MB 229.52, 0w30,5w30, 5w 40) is very, very, very robust! It is also specified for extended drain intervals (up to 30,000 miles/50,000 km)! Anybody who has any doubts should do a/multiple UOA/s. It will surprise most folks. Yes I do know the 2.1 L BT runs twin turbos.

TMI can be had on www.bobistheoilguy.com

Speaking about anti diesel sentiment, how about ethanol? 33% less energy than gasoline. http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/the-truth-about-ethanol-in-your-gas/

So it begs the question, why not 100% ethanol, for a % portion to most of the PVF? Just discount it 33% off gasoline for "equality"?

I'm not the only one who thinks we (2.0 L TDI ers) are getting shortchanged! http://finance.yahoo.com/news/consumer-reports-urges-higher-volkswagen-u-diesel-owner-140431339--finance.html

gagrice

Has anyone seen a Fiat 500 diesel for sale in the US? I saw one on the road in Tahoe this week. Cannot find any listed anywhere in the USA. Did not catch the license as I was looking at the Fiat-diesel moniker.

ruking1

No! But WOW! The Italians are way into diesel ! On the aftermarket, a LOAD of precision critical parts are available!

fintail

Never a Fiat 500 diesel here, and I don't find it available in Mexico either. It does appear to exist in South America. However, there was a "Diesel" edition sold in some markets (I don't think in the US) - Diesel the clothing brand, not the fuel, which can be confusing.

I think the V6 diesel leak is at the oil cooler, I haven't heard that the 4cyl has the same issue.

gagrice

It may have been from Canada. They are not near as picky as the EPA/CARB. They sold a bunch of Smart car diesels. The Dealer in Victoria told me most were diesel.

I have one more year and 13k miles on my full warranty and service. Depending on the settlement, I will probably go for the MB GLE 300d with the 2.1L diesel. They seem to be selling a lot of them around here. Then I may just keep my Touareg TDI forever. Just put a 1300 mile trip with an average of 30 MPG. Crossing several passes over 8000 ft. My wife's grandson was real happy with 22 MPG in his Toyota Sienna Mini Van. Nice van, lots of room for stuff. Smallish gas tank, too many gas stops.

ruking1

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-finds-unapproved-emissions-software-vw-audi-engines-182109128--finance.html?nhp=1 While its probably not the Russians or Chinese hackers,...
One may want to see how they will settle this before a sale. I have had zero warranty issues on the 2012! The CPMD: own/depre for the 2009 VW Jetta TDI will be (BEYOND) good. I'd expect NO less with the Touareg TDI.

gagrice

The only way I would take the buy back if offered, is if the GLE 300d is available. I do have an issue with my Touareg right now. While driving to Lake Tahoe a little engine icon light came on. The book gives a variety of possible issues. No other indications. Vehicle is running fine. Called my VW service and they told me to bring it in when I got back to San Diego. I think it came on when I accelerated hard passing a Prius plugging along at 50 MPH on a two lane portion of US 395. I kicked it up to about 85 MPH. Which was effortless. Though the outside temperature was in the high 90s. Averaged about 30 MPG for the entire 1300 miles. Bought Chevron diesel in Gardnerville, NV for $2.29 on the CC. Computer says 30.4 MPG for return trip 539 miles. Still have 190 mile range. Will fill after VW checks it out tomorrow.

kyfdx

The MIL is almost always related to the emissions system.

ruking1

Will look forward to hearing what it is. 30 mpg is very very good!

andres3

I managed to lower my long term fuel economy by 1/2 MPG in just one drive Sunday. And this long term rate is over 3,000 miles, so you know I was using a full stable of horses. I wonder if a TDI can be flogged hard enough to lower the fuel economy as much in just a short less than 100 mile round-trip drive.

ruking1

You bring up some key differences between the gassers and TDI's. The short answer is yes, BUT the TDI would STILL get better mpg (app 33% +). It would also take way longer (than 100 miles) to erase 3000 miles of historical data.

The TMI answers are only if you want to hear them.

gagrice

ruking1 said:

Will look forward to hearing what it is. 30 mpg is very very good!

VW dealer booked up today, so have a 10 AM appointment tomorrow. I am very happy with the trip mileage. When you consider our trip from San Diego takes you up and down some pretty high passes. Plus three trips over Kingsbury grade. Two lane high speed passing to get around big trucks and Priii.

ruking1

I have done a (the opposite) San Jose to San Diego, CA. (1,000 miles+) RT any number of times. The most memorable was bringing 4 accepted college bound kids to see each's selection. (any excuse for a road trip) Each either had friends or relatives @ the destinations. The 1994 TLC was used. As I recall, it posted 15/16 mpg overall. It would be hard for me to consider a gasser getting that, up to 22 mpg. 29-12 + gals not used goes a very long way.

I'm glad you both had a good CA/NV trip! The TDI's have the additional advantage of great torque & mpg @ altitudes (7,382 ft) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/US_50_from_Echo_Summit_towards_Lake_Tahoe.jpg

Kingsbury Grade http://vacationrentals4laketahoe.com/kingsbury-grade-road-conditions.html The (Colorado) Rockies is another high altitude area (Pikes Peak @ 14,108 ft) I've lived.

Michaell

ruking1 said:

I have done a (the opposite) San Jose to San Diego, CA. (1,000 miles+) RT any number of times. The most memorable was bringing 4 accepted college bound kids to see each's selection. (any excuse for a road trip) Each either had friends or relatives @ the destinations. The 1994 TLC was used. As I recall, it posted 15/16 mpg overall. It would be hard for me to consider a gasser getting that, up to 22 mpg. 29-12 + gals not used goes a very long way.

I'm glad you both had a good CA/NV trip! The TDI's have the additional advantage of great torque & mpg @ altitudes (7,382 ft) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/US_50_from_Echo_Summit_towards_Lake_Tahoe.jpg

Kingsbury Grade http://vacationrentals4laketahoe.com/kingsbury-grade-road-conditions.html The (Colorado) Rockies is another high altitude area (Pikes Peak @ 14,108 ft) I've lived.

The highest passes in CO are around 10-11,000 feet in altitude.

Yes, you can drive to the top of Pikes Peak or Mt. Evans.

ruking1

The up/down grades of Pikes Peak can be the ride of a lifetime!

Michaell

ruking1 said:

The up/down grades of Pikes Peak can be the ride of a lifetime!

Though I only live an hour away, I've only ever taken the cog railway up to the top.

houdini1

kyfdx said:

The MIL is almost always related to the emissions system.

The mother-in-law??

stever

Malfunction indicator lamp aka CEL. Nothing to do with verbal emissions.

gagrice

stever said:

Malfunction indicator lamp aka CEL. Nothing to do with verbal emissions.

It was the O2 sensor that failed causing the engine light. One day after owning the car 3 years. So the regular warranty had ended with 35,400 miles on the ODO. Thankfully I bought the fourth year to 48k miles. They replaced the O2 sensor and washed all the bugs off from the trip to Tahoe for free. I told the manager I planned to trade for a new one before the 4 year warranty ended. If VW does not get their act together and bring out a 2018 Touareg TDI, the sale will go to MB GLE 300d. He did ask if I was interested in the V6 gas model. I laughed and he said I figured as much. He did not realize MB had a diesel in the same class of SUV. Hmmmm

ruking1

To me, the 02 sensor was/is/ would have been the usual suspect! It's nice to be under full extended warranty! I, unfortunately had that happen like clockwork with the TLC's.

I'm also hoping VW gets back into the US market) TDI game! While I can't prove it, to me this whole diesel gate is a (quarterback) head fake, albeit B's of $$'s. Time should tell! I hope I'm wrong!

gagrice

ruking1 said:

To me, the 02 sensor was/is/ would have been the usual suspect! It's nice to be under full extended warranty! I, unfortunately had that happen like clockwork with the TLC's.

I'm also hoping VW gets back into the US market) TDI game! While I can't prove it, to me this whole diesel gate is a (quarterback) head fake, albeit B's of $$'s. Time should tell! I hope I'm wrong!

Just looking over the paper work on the O2 sensor replacement. O2 sensor kit $257, labor $170, total $427. Just about half the amount I paid for an additional year of full coverage and service, including brakes, wipers etc. The service manager told me I have a gold plated extended warranty. If I put enough miles on over the next 12 months I will get two more full services included. The next one is due about 37k miles. They go by the onboard computer. So far it has been about 9k miles between services. With two additional Adblue refills. So far my only out of pocket expense other than diesel is $55 for an air filter replacement and $375 for the new set of tires when Discount tire poked a hole through one of my OEM tires. I have 21k miles on the Michelin Latitude Tour HP tires. They handle and ride better than the OEM Goodyear tires. I have yet to get quite the MPG I got out of the originals. It could be the places I have driven? First 15k miles was cross country to Indiana, last 5 trips North to Oregon. Two best mileage tanks were Shell Diesel bought in TX, 32.2 & 30.98 MPG.

stever

Better take another road trip soon - Mesilla has cooled down; we woke up to under 70 temps this morning. Summer will be fading fast now.

ruking1

The lure of the open roads have always beckoned! 4 of the best cars I have ever wandered the open roads with have been four diesels: 2003/2009 VW Jetta TDI, 2012 VW Touareg TDI, 2014 MB GLK 250 BT & a premium fuel 2001 Corvette Z06 !

gagrice

stever said:

Better take another road trip soon - Mesilla has cooled down; we woke up to under 70 temps this morning. Summer will be fading fast now.

We have been under 60 every morning since our return from Lake Tahoe. Tahoe was high 40s in the mornings. Mid 80s in the afternoon. We hit 50 the other morning. Very pleasant San Diego weather, no AC needed thankfully. Thinking of a late October trip to Oregon. See if we can avoid early snow storms. Only about 30 miles further to see the kids in Oregon going East of the Sierras. And we avoid the awful Los Angeles traffic.

As for vehicles, it is hard to imagine a more comfortable ride than the Touareg TDI. Filled up after we had the O2 sensor replacement. 628 miles on the tank and the computer said we had 130 miles left. That included the trip from Gardnerville NV with a stop over in Ridgecrest, CA and 5 days of running around when we got home. Took 21.36 gallons to fill. Computer said 29.9 actual 29.4 MPG.

andres3

gagrice said:

stever said:

Malfunction indicator lamp aka CEL. Nothing to do with verbal emissions.

It was the O2 sensor that failed causing the engine light. One day after owning the car 3 years. So the regular warranty had ended with 35,400 miles on the ODO. Thankfully I bought the fourth year to 48k miles. They replaced the O2 sensor and washed all the bugs off from the trip to Tahoe for free. I told the manager I planned to trade for a new one before the 4 year warranty ended. If VW does not get their act together and bring out a 2018 Touareg TDI, the sale will go to MB GLE 300d. He did ask if I was interested in the V6 gas model. I laughed and he said I figured as much. He did not realize MB had a diesel in the same class of SUV. Hmmmm

What is the price premium these days for a TDI Toureg (assuming it was salable) vs. a V6 gasser model? How much gas could you buy with that savings?

ruking1

Your guess is probably as good as anybody's.

However, the 2014 MB GLK 250 BT MSRP starts off $500. cheaper than premium gas MSRP. So @ 35,000 miles @ 36/22 mpg, the math indicates $2,292! TDIp being cheaper! (@ 2.77 PUG, $2.69 ULSD) t972 -1591 gal)

For us the TDI gives approximately two years of commuting (15,000 miles per year) over the gas version.

henryn

stever said:

Better take another road trip soon - Mesilla has cooled down; we woke up to under 70 temps this morning. Summer will be fading fast now.

The overnight low here was 80 degrees. It will be at least 6 weeks before that drops enough to notice.

stever

Oh, quit bragging. When it gets below 80 here, I have to go hang out in my garage to warm up.

I assume diesel expands like gas and that you should fill up in the early morning? But I guess the pumps adjust for volume anyway....

Hm, that was my 50,000th post here (the 288 is the # of discussions created). And all I got was a pop-up notification from Vanilla. May never catch up with @Mr_Shiftright though.

texases

That 'fill up in the morning' thing's a myth. The gas/diesel stored underground doesn't change temperature night or day.

gagrice

andres3 said:

gagrice said:

stever said:

Malfunction indicator lamp aka CEL. Nothing to do with verbal emissions.

What is the price premium these days for a TDI Toureg (assuming it was salable) vs. a V6 gasser model? How much gas could you buy with that savings?

The closest 2013 Touareg TDI Lux is 1000 miles away and the price is $39k. I would not sell mine for that little unless I got a big discount on the replacement diesel. The issue is having to stop for gas so often. My lifetime average is 10+ more MPG than the same model with the V6 gas engine. I was getting 15-16 MPG with my Toyota Sequoia. If I wasn't tired of stopping every 350 miles for gas I could have kept it. Not to mention the VW TDI has much smoother highway power than the Toyota V8 gas engine had. Just no comparison between gas and diesel. I think I almost have my wife convinced we need to get rid of the old Lexus and fill that spot in the garage with the new GLE 300d. Then no matter what happens with VW and their V6 diesel debacle we will have a great diesel road vehicle.

ruking1

In contrast, they actually have killed people! Yet GM or a form of them are still trying to wiggle out!? http://www.wsj.com/articles/gm-continues-to-seek-shield-from-ignition-switch-suits-1470951862

stever

No criminal charges either.

andres3

Hmmm... it's probably hard to pin the blame all on GM; I mean, everyone knew that GM made defective vehicles; common knowledge. Yet they still chose to buy. Self-Inflicted wounds.

ruking1

stever said:

No criminal charges either.

VW is paying way too much not to follow GM's example!

stever

Let's avoid the politics please.

Eighty ____ days and counting....

ruking1

??? I'm not sure how you think politics were injected??

stever

That's because I zapped the post right after yours before someone put their own rebuttal cartoon up.

ruking1

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/12/ftc-volkswagen-tdi-buyback-program-official/

So the FTC has your interest in mind?

gagrice

This was one reason I fell for VW diesels. I was there for the start of the adventure.

WOLFSBURG, Germany - After travelling 76.451 kilometres, through 26 countries and six continents, one of the most exciting automobile adventures of our time has come to a close this weekend: the Touareg experience 360° – a journey round the world in the Volkswagen off-road vehicle, Touareg.

In one of the six 128 kW / 174 bhp Touaregs R5 TDI, six guests, two journalists and two experts covered one of a total of thirteen stages of the journey.

http://vwgazette.blogspot.com/2005/10/touareg-experience-360-back-from.html

ruking1

While this article was written in late 2005, 11/12 model years ago, I'd be interested in what had to be done both repair & UN/scheduled maintenance wise over app 46,500 miles to the six vehicles subjected to conditions mentioned in the article. I'd surmise nothing DIESEL related had to be done, other than the addition of Ad Blue.

NON diesel related: in over 88,000 miles in 2 CUVs, I'm/we are glad we passed on the so called "Panoramic" sunroofs. Over 115,000 miles in the sunroof optioned 2009 VW Jetta TDI, I can count on two hands or less, how many times the sunroof was opened, underway. We haven't even used the opened sunroof shade much either.

It is amazing that news like this does not hit the environmental conservatives tabloids!! ??http://www.wsj.com/articles/economic-slump-sends-big-ships-to-scrap-heap-1471192256

They probably cheer when both US & world wide economies are in the literal & proverbial water closet.

stever

I think everyone in the first world already has one (or more) of everything they need and that's probably starting to become true of the rest of the world too. When 3D printing hits. the containers will go away and the remaining ships will just be hauling crude and raw materials to feed the printers.

On the bright side, think of all the bunker oil that won't be burned.

I'd love a droptop and my wife wants a panoramic sunroof. We'd both probably regret our choices in a short while and never use either. Between the sun and the diesel fumes, there's a lot to be said for cocooning in a climate controlled and filtered environment.

Oh maintenance - all cars run pretty good these days.

Here's an idea for VW (although they seem to be recovering fine without my ideas...). Start building cars that need zero maintenance (including oil) for 100,000 miles. Don't even have to be EVs, just make it where you don't have to go to the dealer at all unless something breaks.

ruking1

I've been running 30,000 miles OCIs on (4) diesels for 395,000 miles, outside of included maintenance,with zero ill effects.. Most gasser folks would not even dare to contemplatie that, let alone exceed OEM recommends 10,000 miles OCIs. So it's hardly a gasser switch to diesel game changer.

stever

You're right, as much as I wanted one car with 200k on it for the bragging rights, I was a bit bored with the Quest the last couple of years we drove it.

gagrice

ruking1 said:

While this article was written in late 2005, 11/12 model years ago, I'd be interested in what had to be done both repair & UN/scheduled maintenance wise over app 46,500 miles to the six vehicles subjected to conditions mentioned in the article. I'd surmise nothing DIESEL related had to be done, other than the addition of Ad Blue.

I don't think any of the VW diesels used AdBlue until the current models. Those around the World Touaregs used the older 5 cylinder inline TDI engine. I don't think any were ever sold in the USA. Only used in the older Touareg and Transport van. From all I can find the V6 used now is far superior to the old 2.5L TDI.

ruking1

stever said:

You're right, as much as I wanted one car with 200k on it for the bragging rights, I was a bit bored with the Quest the last couple of years we drove it.

In light of the average age of 11 + plus years of the majority of the PVF, oune of the reasons why I target 250,000/300,000 miles vs 100,000 miles is the 9% sales tax So on a $ 20,000 automobile @ $2.25 per gal = 800 gal @ 40 mpg = 32,000 miles/ 15,000 miles per yr= 2.13 yrs of commuting.

stever

Ah, there's the source of your problem. No commute here since 1983.

Seriously, good for you for driving them forever.

Of course, you're killing the economy and making scrap piles out of a lot of cargo ships.

ruking1

I've been NON "commuter active" going on 2 decades. "The Problem" can hardly be just mine, if 274.8 M PVF for 214.1 M registered drivers of 318.8 M US population, 2014 figures are indicators !

I'm killing the economy? I hardly think you've been living under a rock or have just returned to the planet long enough to note the economy has been in a coma for many many years!!? This article on corporations like Apple might be another indicator! http://finance.yahoo.com/news/tim-cook-says-apple-wont-183800408.html

The dilemmas facing Apple & these corporations are simple: keep $1.00 of profit in (places like) Ireland (6.5% from ZERO) $.935 cents vs bring back to the US only $.52 cents, or a loss of $.48 cents (CA state is 13%) ! But then the mainstream media sez Tim Cooks "horse" will probably win!