What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice

stever said:

I think it's more accurate to say that they cheat the smog tests. Fixing them to pass without the cheat may not be doable.

They don't cheat the smog test in CA. The exhaust is not tested. The smog test operator looks at what is coming out of the exhaust pipe, PERIOD. No device inserted to determine what is coming out. Then they hook up the computer to make sure there are no trouble codes and $48 later you are good for two more years. CARB does NOT test for NOx, CO, CO2, PM or anything coming from the diesel exhaust.

stever

Yeah, yeah, lousy testing. I wondered who lobbied for "the OBDII readout is good enough"? But they still "test" otherwise VW wouldn't have bothered with the cheat eh?

File under be careful what you wish for. You *might* just get cleaner air.

fintail

Took my first little road trip in the new car. Traffic was terrible, lots of stop and go in the first 50 miles, felt like a holiday weekend. Still got decent mileage:

ruking1

Again, the conclusion is inaccurate. De facto, they have in fact said that non-testing of TDI's was/is remains environmentally sound. I say exempt the affected TDI's, because they'are getting their "pound of flesh" and let's move on! Other OEMs are in compliance. So it is a matter of trust, but verify.

stever

I'm not sure we're sure the other OEMs are in compliance. Certainly not the 3.0 liter VW/Audi diesels.

Who else has been caught worldwide? Mitsu somewhere (Korea?) for the gassers iirc. Other diesels in the EU.

Actually that would be a good use of big chunk of the VW settlement - give a bunch to that W. VA college and have them crosscheck those US counties where emission testing is required.

fintail

For the EU, I would want third party verification of noncompliance - the greenie weenie SJW groups aren't very trustworthy or credible IMNSHO and should not be taken at face value. I'd watch out for political motivations out of Korea, too.

stever

It kind of sounds like everyone cheats in the EU and that the regulators don't care. So the big capital cities with some clout wind up banning cars entirely.

Social justice warriors eh? Had to go dig out my Fintail CheatSheet for that one.

fintail

I am only aware of debatable complaints made around ambient temperature related emissions control issues. As far as I know, if a manufacturer can show there is moisture in the system at a given temperature, they can get away with it. I know DUH has whined and wasn't able to accomplish much.

Yup, SJWs have caused some issues on the other side of the pond.

All this effort and expense (by those who probably aren't leading a very green life, themselves), and still nobody will touch shipping, and barely look at commercial vehicles.

gagrice

stever said:

Yeah, yeah, lousy testing. I wondered who lobbied for "the OBDII readout is good enough"? But they still "test" otherwise VW wouldn't have bothered with the cheat eh?

File under be careful what you wish for. You *might* just get cleaner air.

I am still not convinced it was an effort to cheat. The Firmware is what came from Bosch. Bosch claims they told VW it turned off during testing. Now the eyes are on Audi, that actually developed the TDI engines. So what testing did it turn off for???? Did EPA ever test for actual emissions?? We know CARB did/does not test diesels for actual emissions. I don't see any NOx coming out of my exhaust when it is idling. Or when it was on the treadmill. That is my whole reason for feeling ripped off by CA. With my gas vehicles I get a printout that shows how much of each pollutant my car puts out. Nothing like that for the diesels.

As for the 3.0L TDI, both VW and MB say the firmware cuts back during cold weather warmup to protect the engine. Well guess what. If I drive one mile to the smog station close to me, my gassers will fail the test. I drive 15 miles to get the car nice and warmed up. Never a failure that way. A trick the smog man told me about 10 years ago.

breld

fintail said:

Took my first little road trip in the new car. Traffic was terrible, lots of stop and go in the first 50 miles, felt like a holiday weekend. Still got decent mileage:

@fintail - that's impressive!

stever

gagrice said:

I am still not convinced it was an effort to cheat.

Maybe VW admitted to the cheat because they were too embarrassed to admit that they couldn't explain to CARB how their engine worked using off the shelf parts from K-Mart's Performance Division?

ruking1

Hard to cheat a biannual CARB OBD/diesel smog test that does not test for...smog nor N0X!

stever

"The USEPA and state authorities have generally found that OBD II systems are more effective in detecting
emission-related malfunctions on in-use vehicles compared to existing Inspection and
Maintenance (I/M) tailpipe testing procedures. Current Smog Check data indicates that
vehicles are more than twice as likely to fail an OBD II-based inspection than the
required tailpipe emissions test. Nearly every state besides California that has an I/M
program currently relies exclusively on vehicle OBD II system inspections as the basis
for its emission inspections of 1996 and newer vehicles."

So the OBDII is a better smog test than the tailpipe probe. Except when the manufacturer cheats.

Transitioning Away from Smog Check Tailpipe Emission Testing in California for OBD II Equipped Vehicles (PDF file - if the link is funky, try a search on the title)

That's from March, 2009.

gagrice

Stever: So the OBDII is a better smog test than the tailpipe probe.

Now that is interesting. With all the people plugging into their vehicles making adjustments, I would think that is a cottage industry looking for someone to start. We have shops all over San Diego that disable stuff in mostly big diesel PU trucks to improve both performance and fuel economy. I don't see how the test equipment would detect a problem if you reset everything to factory before you do your bi-annual smog check.

The reason I sold my 1998 Suburban in 2006 was it would not pass smog with the K&N Filter I installed. I was going to license in CA when I retired. The Suburban was licensed to my address in Prudhoe Bay, so no smog check. The smog station would not touch it with an aftermarket air filter. So I was driving around CA for 7 years with a vehicle that was not legal in the state. Never stopped by a cop for out of state plates.

gagrice

And by the way, the K&N filter that cost me about $300 did NOT improve mileage and made my vehicle noisier. So I am not a fan of after market crap. Looking on line it seems I was not alone with the problem.

http://www.smogtips.com/forum-air-filter.cfm

ruking1

Never buy a (K& N) oiled cotton type media cold air type filter for a diesel! No diesel OEM specifies them. They are way too expensive. There are more reasons!

For those who find what you have said hard to believe, diesels are already designed with the so called cold air box. In fact, they let in way more air than the diesel can use. Secondly, oiled cotton media lets in WAY bigger chunks of dust particles, than the OEM paper filter that is designed for that particular engine. Thirdly, oiled cotton increases the likelihood foreign fluids like oil coating sensitive electronic sensors & can be/are injested by the intake. Fourth partially used paper air filters actually filter better than brand new.

stever

Agree about the K&N (and feel about the same about aftermarket shocks).

I don't know if the OBD is set up to store modifications or if the mods can be cleared. May be a good reason to do some spot testing of actual drivers (like that'll ever happen....).

ruking1

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/volkswagen-wont-renew-u-s-diesel-push/

Diesel sales, smaller volume?

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/22/the-associated-press-apnewsbreak-volkswagen-has-emissions-cheating-fix-ready.html
The above might fall under the category of those who have just seen Elvis in the house..... But hey, tis a slow news diesel day!

gagrice

ruking1 said:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/volkswagen-wont-renew-u-s-diesel-push/

Diesel sales, smaller volume?

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/22/the-associated-press-apnewsbreak-volkswagen-has-emissions-cheating-fix-ready.html
The above might fall under the category of those who have just seen Elvis in the house..... But hey, tis a slow news diesel day!

So if VW buys them back and does the fix they can be resold, not destroyed. If they are not already trashed with high mileage. Sounds like a good plan for the owners and VW.

stever

That would be good news.

ruking1

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/22/the-associated-press-apnewsbreak-volkswagen-has-emissions-cheating-fix-ready.html
Some interesting buy back angles.

kyfdx

What would it take for ME to buy a diesel?

Evidently, the possibility of making $6000-$9400 profit on a buyback!

ruking1

I was vilified by some to most on this diesel thread. However the VW TDI's & life are great ! While it's always an option to get the (TBD) fix/es and keep the car (2009 VW TDI w/120,000 miles) the buy back option is just incredible !!

Interesting NHTSA 2014 statistics! http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

274.8 M registered passenger vehicles!

ruking1

Modern diesels are WAY cleaner ! http://www.dieselforum.org/news/statement-of-the-diesel-technology-forum-regarding-the-mitigation-aspects-of-the-volkswagen-settlement-announcement

VW TDI "green articles: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/volkswagen-diesel-scandal
Interesting TMI ?
...“A commercial Class 8 truck manufactured since 2010 typically traveling 125,000 miles per year would save 875 gallons of fuel and reduce NOx emissions by 1.1 metric tonnes compared to older models. In addition to the proven clean air benefits, the new technology clean diesel engine would save the trucker $2,400 annually (at fuel prices of $2.75 per gallon), and result in 8.9 fewer metric tonnes of carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions....

breld

kyfdx said:

What would it take for ME to buy a diesel?

Evidently, the possibility of making $6000-$9400 profit on a buyback!

Sharp!

henryn

ruking1 said:

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/22/the-associated-press-apnewsbreak-volkswagen-has-emissions-cheating-fix-ready.html
Some interesting buy back angles.

Anyone following the "VW TDI Settlement" thread knows that I have already taken the plunge, purchasing a 2013 Passat TDI yesterday. I stand to make about $4k on the buyback. But if they really do come up with a fix which does not negatively impact performance or mileage, then I could keep the car and get half of the settlement (about $3k). All of which sounds like a Win-Win situation to me.

fintail

Much better traffic flow today enabled this:

houdini1

fintail said:

Much better traffic flow today enabled this:

What camera are you using to get those excellent close up pics?

fintail

Just my phone. Samsung Note 5. Like most phones it sometimes has issues with bright and dark conditions, but for 98% of pics I take, it works.

houdini1 said:

What camera are you using to get those excellent close up pics?

stever

Pretty good mpg. I was a bit bummed that I couldn't quite get more than 49 on that rental Prius we drove to LA last December. Should have played with eco mode more I guess.

fintail

This was mostly highway, which helped a lot. Prius would win in the city, but I don't know if it would be as pleasantr or comfortable. This is a 4000+ full sized AWD car, I had AC on more than half the time, had the seat ventilation on a little too. I don't hypermile

stever

Interesting backstory (one of many I suppose) on Dieselgate.

Researchers Who Exposed VW Gain Little Reward From Success (NY Times)

gagrice

stever said:

Interesting backstory (one of many I suppose) on Dieselgate.

Researchers Who Exposed VW Gain Little Reward From Success (NY Times)

If memory serves the University Professor that tried to prove there was a glitch in the Toyota accelerator practically was black balled. All he was trying to do was find a problem, that of course Toyota claimed non existent. They threatened to pull university funding from his program.

Dan Carder should be thankful he is not pushing up daisies. People that cost other people millions or billions are not on the Christmas Card list of those they expose. It would be interesting to find out who put them up to just testing VW diesels. How about GM, Jeep, BMW, MB, Ford, Ram?

stever

They also tested a BMW, which "passed".

And yeah, after upsetting the system so badly, they'll be lucky to get any more grants.

gagrice

You would think the greedy B******* at CARB would share some of the Billion they will get.

ruking1

It has really been about the billions $$'s in fines ! The math @ $4.7 B for 500,000 TDI's cars comes to about $9,400 per vehicle. In my particular case, I get a "mere" $5,100, not counting app $12,500 to $14,500 for the buy back.

kyfdx

ruking1 said:

It has really been about the billions $$'s in fines ! The math @ $4.7 B for 500,000 TDI's cars comes to about $9,400 per vehicle. In my particular case, I get a "mere" $5,100, not counting app $12,500 to $14,500 for the buy back.

Your money doesn't come out of the fines, it comes out of the $10.3 Billion buyback fund.

Fines are about punishment and sending a message. They didn't admit wrongdoing, because $15 billion dollars is cheaper than paying lawyers. They cheated, and got caught.

No one is going to feel sorry for those that get the buyout or modification. It's a gift, especially since you don't think anything is wrong with the cars, anyway.

ruking1

I & numerous articles have said, government fines are earmarked separately. I even put it ( the amount) in my post! Thanks for confirming the obvious. Keep up the good work!

My post was to highlight that the fines were about massive goverment fine grabs, in response to another post ! Monies to owners are an attempt to make the governments "grabs" seem less greedy. That is, unless your opinion is that $9,400 is LESS than $5,100 The higher figure should go to the owners! Or lesser unit figures should go to EPA/CARB. Again, those are my opinions.

As we have said numerous times before & which seems to be summarily ignored; CARB has NOT tested individual TDI cars, as they require gassers. So yes, it is @ get the rope, he said/she said, we said, kill the beast, storm those German castles stage!

Indeed, unless VW is keeping secret dealer test results, not even VW really knows what each individual TDI emissions are.

gagrice

The Fines from VW to the EPA and CARB are purely graft & extortion. That money will NOT clean the air. VW is buying off the politicians. And the gifts to the owners is an attempt to keep us loyal to the brand. I think VW is wasting far more than they should to settle the issue. If I was CEO I would tell EPA and CARB to pound sand. Prove we cheated in court. Those that prematurely confessed were lying and are no longer employed.

stever

kyfdx said:

Fines are about punishment and sending a message. They didn't admit wrongdoing, because $15 billion dollars is cheaper than paying lawyers. They cheated, and got caught.

I hear what you are saying and I'll never be able to find the quote I saw last week but supposedly VW has admitted wrongdoing in a court document. Which wouldn't be lawyerly advice I suppose considering that criminal charges are still on the table.

Hm, guess it was in the West Virginia story and it's more of an admission that VW didn't think it'd get caught. (post5.net)

ruking1

It's very seldom that things go well for whistleblowers ! ?

stever

heh, true that.

ruking1

stever said:

heh, true that.

But then you know, EPA/CARB didn't do too badly for being asleep at the wheel to totally negligent @ $4.7 billion !

texases

Sorry, they'd happily pay lawyers if the has ANY kind of a case. 

ruking1

They happily pay lawyers REGARDLESS! (NOW) ! What's the real point! I don't think we're getting the whole story! If I were the VW owners; i.e. State of Lower Saxony, Porsche family, sovereign wealth fund of Qatar, etc. I'd vote to take it to court! The following article indicates how that fleshes out!?

...They Have Been Rewarded For Failure"
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/23/business/international/volkswagen-shareholder-meeting.html?_r=0

Now the article states that they are looking more at the long-term !?

kyfdx

stever said:

kyfdx said:

Fines are about punishment and sending a message. They didn't admit wrongdoing, because $15 billion dollars is cheaper than paying lawyers. They cheated, and got caught.

I hear what you are saying and I'll never be able to find the quote I saw last week but supposedly VW has admitted wrongdoing in a court document. Which wouldn't be lawyerly advice I suppose considering that criminal charges are still on the table.

Hm, guess it was in the West Virginia story and it's more of an admission that VW didn't think it'd get caught. (post5.net)

Yeah.. that didn't come out exactly clear. What I meant to say, They admitted wrongdoing, because they got caught, not because it was cheaper than litigating.

They cheated. The fines are a deterrence to them and others who might consider cheating.

stever

Heh, you don't think would have come clean at some point if no one had caught them?

henryn

What I wonder about, did they think no one would ever catch them? Or was it more like the classic movie line, "I'll worry about that tomorrow."

gagrice

I have always praised the Biodiesel industry. When the Federal government gets involved it creates golden opportunities for fraud.

All an unscrupulous biofuel trader really needed in the early RIN years was a talent for Microsoft Excel. Over a phone or a computer, he’d negotiate with a refining company or a third-party broker to sell RINs at an agreed-upon price. Then he’d generate some numbers, send them over, and get paid. No fuel exchanged hands. And the onus was on buyers to make sure the numbers were associated with gallons of actual fuel; if the RINs proved fraudulent, the holder had to purchase new credits to replace phony ones. A man named Rodney Hailey sold $9 million in counterfeit RINs from his Maryland garage without even trying to make biodiesel. When EPA inspectors wanted to visit the plant he didn’t have, he told them he had recently removed all the equipment and sold it. When they asked who the buyer was, he said he couldn’t remember. He did send pictures of the plant before it was dismantled—but those turned out to be images he’d found on the internet. He was convicted in June 2012 of selling fraudulent RINs and is serving a 12 ½-year prison sentence.

http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-fake-biofuel-factory/

kyfdx

That's a great article. The perpetrators went to jail for a long, long time, though.