What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice

texases said:

I see no misunderstanding. Here's what the cheat code does in the 3.0 TDI:

"According to the report, three unapproved pieces of software allowed the affected vehicles to shut down their emissions control systems after 22 minutes of driving. Theoretically, this would allow the vehicles to pass government emissions tests, which universally last for around 20 minutes, but put out unrestricted emissions in real-world driving. This is in addition to previously-disclosed software used on the 3.0-liter TDI engine which VW admitted was used to make affected vehicles pass government emissions tests, but shut down the emissions controls in real-world driving."

By shutting down the emissions control system, DEF usage is minimized. A 'fixed' 3.0 TDI will use more DEF.

And who said that? I have not read any account agreed to by VW on the above assumption. Only the emissions system being tied to cold weather starting. All the car rags repeat one story that was NOT properly attributed to anyone with authority. The German rags are as bad as ours. All want to sell themselves.

andres3

xwesx said:

ruking1 said:

Should be: it sounds like a great road trip! How would (you) compare and contrast your VW Passat with your Subaru's?

Tough comparison! They are entirely different beasts, for sure! I would say that the Passat is far more comfortable, certainly gets better mileage (about 73% better than the Forester @ ~26 mpg, even better if I take total historical average, but I don't have local/commuter/winter history on the Passat yet, so that wouldn't be a fair comparison), has a vastly superior sound system (and noise dampening), and the range... the range!

The Forester has better ground clearance, cargo space, is more versatile, has AWD, and can haul bigger/heavier/more awkward loads (as would be expected with a hatch/wagon vs. a sedan). Part of that is due to the mods I've made to it over the years. But, for a sedan, the Passat really does have cavernous space and really well-thought features. And, the Forester has a manual transmission (e.g., it wins!).

Frankly, though, I feel like the Passat is too good of a car for me. In other words, I'm way too rough around the edges for a car this refined.

Give it some more time and miles. That Passat will work to soften and smooth your edges. Pretty soon you'll go soft! VW/Audi do present a better quality product in my opinion. I guess that's why we own two currently. I'm coming around on Mexican built VW quality, our '15 has over 15,000 miles and it hasn't had a single warranty issue.

I'd like one of those older 2.0T Passat Wagons I see commuting around from time to time; when did they stop making those gassers?

They are coming out with an AWD Sportwagen soon..., and the wagen was available with a stick in either TDI or TSI trim (when TDI's were still sold).

gagrice

Here is where all the accusations on the 3.0L come from:

Reuters reports that another, previously-undiscovered piece of emissions-thwarting software has been discovered in the 3.0-liter TDI V6 engine used in the Volkswagen Touareg, Audi Q7, and Porsche Cayenne SUVs.

The news originates from German news weekly Bild am Sonntag, which does not reveal its source for the information.

This is in addition to previously-disclosed software used on the 3.0-liter TDI engine which VW admitted was used to make affected vehicles pass government emissions tests, but shut down the emissions controls in real-world driving.

It's a cheat tactic that is relatively common across numerous automakers, and one that may not technically be illegal in the European Union. As Bertel Schmitt has written at Forbes, EU law allows automakers to define nearly any type of emissions shutdown software as being "necessary to protect the engine." In Europe, diesel-powered Fiat Chrysler products have been found to use a nearly-identical piece of software; both Opel and Daimler have been found using similar software that shuts off emissions controls based on ambient temperatures.

ruking1

henryn said:

ruking1 said:

My local NAPA is offering $ 9.99 ($14.99) for a 2.5 gal container of Peak DEF. (diesel emissions fluid). The 3.0 L (12 VW Touareg TDI) used app 4.5 gal per 15,000 miles. CPMD:DEF= $ .0011986. DEF consumption is .0384 oz per mile.

My guess is that the 2.0 L TDI's would use far less. I still do not have accurate consumption figures on the 2.1 L (14 MB GLK 250 BT) It also has not needed even a liter of oil during a 20,000 miles OCI.

Walmart has their own store brand of DEF for $7.99, everyday price. Exact same thing, 32.5% urea and 67.5% de-ionized water. As far as the consumption rate, no one really seems to have a good handle on that. I have done a fair bit of reading in various VW and diesel forums in the past few weeks, and the answers on consumption are all over the place. Even taking worst case scenario, the cost is so puny I can't really imagine anyone caring. The inconvenience is a little more of a problem than the cost, but still very very minor (at least in my mind).

I definitely plan to sell mine back, but I am undecided about when. Keeping until December of 2018 looks very, very tempting right now.

But then again, if all of these other countries get into the act, maybe I should take the money BEFORE it's all gone...

Here is a WalMart link to their DEF SuperTech brand, $7.88 per 2.5 gal container. With a 1,500 miles range AFTER the low DEF lamp lights, if one is doing a cross country trip, in theory there is nation wide stockade with NAPA & WalMart. (aka, no real need to stock up or carry DEF on a long trip.)
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Supertech-Diesel-Exhaust-Fluid-2.5-Gallons/44457724

gagrice

I have no idea how much Adblue my Touareg uses. First service at 9k miles they added some??? About 2k miles later the adblue message popped up with 1500 miles range. They added more at the dealer and I was fine till the 2nd service when they added more, I assume. It has been hit and miss and I asked the service guy about it. He told me they just dump in a jug and call it good. So how are you supposed to know unless you document from the time the 1500 mile message comes in and you fill to the top. The service guy says they don't top it off because it can make a mess.... :@

When my service contract is up at 4 years, I will just keep a jug on hand for when the message comes up and find out for sure how much it uses. If they don't buy it back.

ruking1

Yes! That is actually my difficulty with MB GLK 250 BT. I know how many containers the dealers used, but mums the world on quantity or like you say: no good baseline. I've winged it a bit, as it appears it consumes less DEF than the 3.0L (proportionally)!? To me this is weird because the MB 2.1 produces more torque per liter (bit less than 175.7) than the Touareg's 3.0L (135.33)

Now on the Touareg, I watched the dealers technician do it for the first time. So come my turn/time, I did it with zero issues. So the 4.5 gal refill (better part (90%) of 2 containers was @ app 14,500 miles The low DEF came on slightly before. So 15,000 miles on 5 gal DEF is a good round fiqure. (aka, less than 1/2 of an oz of DEF per mile, cpmd: DEF = $ .0010506 cents)

TMI:

It seems that most to all 2.5 gallon DEF containers come with a very handy flexible/accordion spout ( less than 1 foot) . The major goal is to get spout into the opening! ? Once one gets the "hang of it", it's about as difficult as filling ones' windshield washer fluid tank, albeit a smaller diameter opening. To me, the difficulty lies in the "weird" spout position (put under the space saving spare) & removing the stuff in one's trunk. Any DEF spillage can be towelled dry & the area rinsed with water. There are drainage holes.

stever

DEF seems like relatively benign stuff, best to keep it off your skin and out of your eyes. Shoot, it's one of the few things out there that's not considered carcinogenic by the State of California.

gagrice

My issue, was the mechanic spilled drops of it all over my spare tire. I tried to clean it all off. They say it is corrosive to aluminum which the funky spare is. I'm covered for another 11 months and 12k miles.

Michelins have 22k miles and are about 1/3rd used according to Discount tire the rotated and balanced yesterday. All wearing very evenly. Now all we have to do is enjoy the vehicle till VW decides what to do with us.

andres3

Ah, the newer '15 TDI's have a gas body lid with two tank filler holes and caps underneath. One for diesel, and one for DEF in the same right rear spot of the car.

gagrice

Just scanning in some slides from the 1960s. If Toyota had sent US their diesel instead of their lousy copy of a Chevy 6 cylinder, I would not have had a problem getting across this creek. My 1964 Toyota LC. Wish I still owned it with a small diesel engine.

stever

You should be staying out of my canoeing streams anyway, ya durn motorhead.

ruking1

Longer-term, after the VW TDI brouhaha has settled. it appears BULLISH for TDI's! Most everyone is waiting to see how things flesh out! With a EPA/CARB buyback goal of 85%, that will effectively remove the supply of "affected" vehicles!?? ( 85% of 500,000 units=425,000 units, = 75,000 units remaining). Just this should increase the prices of remaining TDI's.!! Should VW effect "fixes" with little to no mpg or loss of torque, that would be even more bullish for remaining TDI's! It is apparent the CARB biannual diesel test will change much.

gagrice

stever said:

You should be staying out of my canoeing streams anyway, ya durn motorhead.

Hehe, you would not have gotten far in that stream. And only once every decade or so. Last I heard it is all closed to motor vehicle traffic. Most of CA is getting closed to off-road vehicles.

PS
You would have to carry your canoe about 10 miles to launch it. Or down some very steep trails.

http://www.sandiegohikers.com/Hiking-Trails/Ramona-Waterfall-Hike.html

stever

My nephew in Chattanooga is a creek boater. Stuff that looks like damp rocks most of the year gets run when a big downpour happens. Otherwise he sticks to the Ocoee.

Kind of surprised no fisher has shot an ATVer for tearing up anadromous streams up in AK.

In other news, it sounds like the dealers will be getting a good settlement, plus new product.

VW Reaches Accord With Dealers to Cover Diesel-Cheat Losses (Bloomberg)

stever

Interesting story about aftermarket diesel mods and liability and Utahans getting a "no smoking" law. (good4utah.com)

kyfdx

stever said:

My nephew in Chattanooga is a creek boater. Stuff that looks like damp rocks most of the year gets run when a big downpour happens. Otherwise he sticks to the Ocoee.

Kind of surprised no fisher has shot an ATVer for tearing up anadromous streams up in AK.

In other news, it sounds like the dealers will be getting a good settlement, plus new product.

VW Reaches Accord With Dealers to Cover Diesel-Cheat Losses (Bloomberg)

Seems that the judge doesn't anticipate them getting a fix past the EPA.

ruking1

If one can get past the " eyes glazed over" material, here is how folks see the EPA! ? http://www.wsj.com/articles/years-of-fed-missteps-fueled-disillusion-with-the-economy-and-washington-1472136026

ruking1

App 59 mpg is pretty hilarious for the American markets The US governments 58 mpg 2025 is a mere poster in 2016 reality !

So, given 1 hour of travel (30 min each way) to & fro, I'm guessing app 7, 500 miles/yr/59 mpg =127 gals. Got to like $ $2.39 per gal @ COSTCO!

stevedebi

ruking1 said:

App 59 mpg is pretty hilarious for the American markets The US governments 58 mpg 2025 is a mere poster in 2016 reality !

So, given 1 hour of travel (30 min each way) to & fro, I'm guessing app 7, 500 miles/yr/59 mpg =127 gals. Got to like $ $2.39 per gal @ COSTCO!

Remember, that is Imperial Gallons, not US, in Canada. Assuming you are referring to shinginglikeme.

houdini1

shinninglikeme said:

[non-permissible content removed]

First post. Welcome to Edmund's SLM.

stever

You guys need work on recognizing your Sri Lankian spammers.

ruking1

stevedebi said:

ruking1 said:

App 59 mpg is pretty hilarious for the American markets The US governments 58 mpg 2025 is a mere poster in 2016 reality !

So, given 1 hour of travel (30 min each way) to & fro, I'm guessing app 7, 500 miles/yr/59 mpg =127 gals. Got to like $ $2.39 per gal @ COSTCO!

Remember, that is Imperial Gallons, not US, in Canada. Assuming you are referring to shinginglikeme.

No! 128 oz gal. (Imp gal is = 153.72 oz.) The key nexus here are IN the definitions: 25 KMpl (kilometers per LITER. (33.8 oz) 3.79 l per gal.) The post does highlight a very common mis conversion. I ran the conversion off Siri and checked using my cheap craculaot . Here's a quick & dirty: http://www.answers.com/Q/25_kilometers_per_liter_equals_how_many_Miles_per_gallon
There there are any number of conversion sites.

ruking1

Well the spam chaser needs to tighten up his backstroke.

Today's 08/26/2016, pB1. WSJ has an article about VW's smaller diesel that will fall a tad short of 100% compliance, (N0x, I presume) or to 80 to 90%. The larger diesel (N0x emissions, I presume) can be corrected by approximately 2 M lines in a software upgrade. I'm waiting for the buyback numbers.

Long story shot: We should be further compensated for the "KEEP" option probably being taken off the table!

( I could not locate a proper link)

houdini1

Darn, fooled me. How could you tell? He didn't seem to be selling anything.

ruking1

[non-permissible content removed]

Nonetheless behind the scenes the OEMs are fighting tooth and nail to get the forward looking standard set WAY back. It's apparent to all of those OEMs that producie gassers that there's no way that they can meet the mpg standards even with EV. This is one reason why the system is trying to get rid of diesels. Mpg is easily 25 to 40% better ! I mean really, does anybody really expect a decked out gasser Ford F-150 complying with the 58 mph 2025 standards ?

I did find a link but it was not the Wall Street Journal's. http://news.morningstar.com/all/dow-jones/us-markets/201608261530/vw-fixes-for-diesel-cars-will-fall-short-wsj.aspx

xwesx

Maybe I need to start working on my wife to get her to agree to let me pick up a Toureg or Q5. Shoot, this one is in Beaverton, OR - I could just grab that on our way through next month!

How can I convince her that if we wait until the Passat is gone, it will probably be too late? /sigh

ruking1

Wow! The unit has less than 6,200 miles! My guess it was a personal car for a dealerships executive! Or maybe it was anti-diesel panicked sale ?

stever

The spammer's post was very similar to that one just above by @xwesx. A couple of lines of text and a link to a (Tata) car dealership.

But we know Xwesx - the spammer was new, that was their first post and the link didn't really have anything (DRINK MORE MILK) to do with the post.

houdini1

ruking1 said:

Wow! The unit has less than 6,200 miles! My guess it was a personal car for a dealerships executive! Or maybe it was anti-diesel panicked sale ?

They sure don't have a panicked sale price on it now.

ruking1

IF a panicked sale is indeed true, that might be a huge buy low/sell high scenario? I'm clueless on 2015 Audi Q5's gas/TDI. Since Sept /Oct 2015, I've said there were good times to buy in anticipating rising prices! Of late, I've posted that I think TDI prices probably will go up after the brouhaha has died down!

I did see an article saying VW needs to drop its (gasser) prices to stop the sales slide. On VW TDI news, another article indicated that the buyback offer expires sometime in September 2018.

stevedebi

ruking1 said:

stevedebi said:

ruking1 said:

App 59 mpg is pretty hilarious for the American markets The US governments 58 mpg 2025 is a mere poster in 2016 reality !

So, given 1 hour of travel (30 min each way) to & fro, I'm guessing app 7, 500 miles/yr/59 mpg =127 gals. Got to like $ $2.39 per gal @ COSTCO!

Remember, that is Imperial Gallons, not US, in Canada. Assuming you are referring to shinginglikeme.

No! 128 oz gal. (Imp gal is = 153.72 oz.) The key nexus here are IN the definitions: 25 KMpl (kilometers per LITER. (33.8 oz) 3.79 l per gal.) The post does highlight a very common mis conversion. I ran the conversion off Siri and checked using my cheap craculaot . Here's a quick & dirty: http://www.answers.com/Q/25_kilometers_per_liter_equals_how_many_Miles_per_gallon
There there are any number of conversion sites.

Ru,
Since the distance was in KM/l (which is used in Canada and other nations), and gallons, which are used in the UK and Canada, I assumed the original post was in Imperial.

KM / L is KM/L, but the conversion to MPG will be a lower with US Gallons. Someone from Canada will convert using Imperial. If there are more liters per gallon, then there will be higher MPG.

I looked at your url, and it did not specify which gallon was used that I saw. A quick search found a US to Imperial conversion:

https://www.unitjuggler.com/convert-fuelconsumption-from-mpg-to-mpgimperial.html?val=43

1 US MPG = 1.2009499255398 Imperial mpg, if I'm reading the site correctly.

ruking1

Well you need to run the mpg in imp gal conversion then. Since this is an American market, there's not too much call for expressions of imperial gallons. In SL ( spammer car sales link) BC Canada is currently sold by the liter, as it is in the UK also.

ruking1

The Slow Death of Diesel (?, my sic) https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2016-08-26/the-slow-death-of-diesel

stever

Wow, interesting link @ruking1.

"Bloomberg New Energy Finance expects the cost of owning an electric vehicle to fall below conventional fuel vehicles as soon as 2022."

That's only six years away.

ruking1

The most obvious interesting things: thenumbers & more importantly %'s do NOT convert to % PVF!!? Indeed, it doesn't even convert to even a low % of YEARLY sales!? http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

TMI

2015, 116,099/274.8 M (2014 reg vehicles) = .00042279 % growth per year . ( Remember that the European PVF ( slightly larger than USA PVF is fully one half plus diesel.

2015 116,099/17.5 M (projected) = .00663423 % of yearly sales.

I've also read that yearly sales % is just slight above yearly auto salvage % rates. Growth from 2013 269.3 M To 2014 274.8 M is slightly more than 2% growth.

Uncle Warren even said he has bought ONE caddie!!?

fintail

Does that include dopey tax gifts?

stever said:

Wow, interesting link @ruking1.

"Bloomberg New Energy Finance expects the cost of owning an electric vehicle to fall below conventional fuel vehicles as soon as 2022."

That's only six years away.

stever

I'm trying to imagine all the unintended consequences if the fleet does start changing to EVs. This year and last are a bubble, but we're talking 17 million new cars for each of the last two years in the US. Will highway funding switch to pay by the mile? Will convenience stores lose some of their pumps and put up drive through Powerball windows?

ruking1

I would argue that some to MANY of the things that you referred to as "unintended consequences" are really "INTENTED" unintended consequences ! While it is probably unnoticed to many to most consumers, it is absolutely HUGE!

So for example, how many people even know that a (one's) local fuel station only makes pennies per gal? Probably the most important question: how many people even care ? There are HUGE lists of unintended consequences ! One that comes to mind would be loss of fuel stations!

In light of diesels & TDI's here is one humorous "unintended consequence" http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2016/03/22/elon-musk-wife-files-to-divorce-billionaire/?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_960973

Free EV's & a new one every time a battery runs out?

Don't mention this, but EV sales are DECLINING!http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ready-goodbye-lot-electric-cars-200141423.html so how many/ % of Lyft, Uber & rental cars are EV?

Horse power cures a lot of (EV) problems, cures a LOT of problems !! ??? http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/01/jay-leno-tesla-video/?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_715486&ncid=txtlnkusaolp00001366

So do you ever wonder why lithium batteries are "MORE safe on the ground? http://www.wsj.com/articles/faa-tightens-safeguards-on-lithium-batteries-on-jetliners-smaller-planes-1472302614

fintail

I'd call them negative externalities.

Will the already stressed power grid be able to handle it? There's an elephant in the room that nobody wants to admire. Maybe we can open up some more coal plants like green Germany LOL.

Kind of like with autonomous cars - if they all observe traffic laws, how will the LEO class be funded? It's quite expensive.

stever said:

I'm trying to imagine all the unintended consequences if the fleet does start changing to EVs. This year and last are a bubble, but we're talking 17 million new cars for each of the last two years in the US. Will highway funding switch to pay by the mile? Will convenience stores lose some of their pumps and put up drive through Powerball windows?

xwesx

ruking1 said:

IF a panicked sale is indeed true, that might be a huge buy low/sell high scenario? I'm clueless on 2015 Audi Q5's gas/TDI. Since Sept /Oct 2015, I've said there were good times to buy in anticipating rising prices! Of late, I've posted that I think TDI prices probably will go up after the brouhaha has died down!

I did see an article saying VW needs to drop its (gasser) prices to stop the sales slide. On VW TDI news, another article indicated that the buyback offer expires sometime in September 2018.

You're likely right on this. With most of the cars out of circulation, there is still going to be demand for them but very little supply. The only way the used prices are going to get sane again is if the feds open up the market to allow VW diesels again.

I did briefly suggest to my wife that we opt for the "fix," take the $3,500 on that (clears us about $3K instead of $5K if we sell), sell my Forester, and then keep the car a while and take advantage of an inflated used market once most of them are gone. And, my words simply settled in to a quiet air that means "I'm not entertaining you on this."

ruking1

I can feel with you! On this side, for the three that are NON car people, suddenly they are keenly aware!! ? Before that it was 50/40/36/33 mpg and fill with diesel only! ? All really like how the diesels drive!

xwesx

I think the struggle I'm having with this is that I have wanted to try a diesel (family vehicle, not pickup) for a long while, and I viewed this as a way to open that door (my wife was very much anti-diesel and even uttered (much to my horror) all the cliches we all know). So, it's a little sad for me to have such a fine vehicle knowing that it will only be for a very short time. I just have to hope that she'll be more open to considering a diesel as a "long termer" when we're ready to replace her Forester.

henryn

Have you talked to her about keeping it for 2 years with ZERO DEPRECIATION? Now that argument is very hard to counter.

xwesx

henryn said:

Have you talked to her about keeping it for 2 years with ZERO DEPRECIATION? Now that argument is very hard to counter.

That argument would be pretty decent if it weren't for the fact that I have a car, fully equipped, already on hand. So, if I were to keep this one for that two years, it would make sense to sell the other one (which I won't keep longer than that anyway) now. Then, though, I would have to equip this one for winter driving, which would be $1,500 or so between at least tires and winterization (I haven't priced tires). As such, these costs are real adds to the overall ownership, and cut into the margin. As I look at it, all interest on our loan, any delta on insurance over my Forester, etc., all cut into any margin of profit on it. Of course, there's the fuel savings, so I would have to take all these factors into consideration to see where I would end up at the end.

But, you're right, it is a compelling argument to at least work through all those numbers...

ruking1

There is that saying "happy wife, happy life". With the emotional component addressed, let us move to the practical components.

IF as you say, you will NOT keep the 2010 Subaru Forester longer than two more years anyway, will you get more monies for it now or two years hence? Probably more importantly how much more or less $$'s!? If you get another diesel, the buy back decision expires some date in September 2018. Assuming you then will have two VW's with ZERO depreciation for buyback.

So for example in my case, it still has not really sunk in that by Sep 2018, I will essentially get back monies paid new and put on 150,000 miles/40 mpg. Yes, I project I'd have bought 3,750 gal of ULSD.i @ current $2.25 per gal, I would have paid app $ .05625 per mile.

houdini1

ruking1 said:

I would argue that some to MANY of the things that you referred to as "unintended consequences" are really "INTENTED" unintended consequences ! While it is probably unnoticed to many to most consumers, it is absolutely HUGE!

So for example, how many people even know that a (one's) local fuel station only makes pennies per gal? Probably the most important question: how many people even care ? There are HUGE lists of unintended consequences ! One that comes to mind would be loss of fuel stations!

In light of diesels & TDI's here is one humorous "unintended consequence" http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2016/03/22/elon-musk-wife-files-to-divorce-billionaire/?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_960973

Free EV's & a new one every time a battery runs out?

Don't mention this, but EV sales are DECLINING!http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ready-goodbye-lot-electric-cars-200141423.html so how many/ % of Lyft, Uber & rental cars are EV?

Horse power cures a lot of (EV) problems, cures a LOT of problems !! ??? http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/01/jay-leno-tesla-video/?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_715486&ncid=txtlnkusaolp00001366

So do you ever wonder why lithium batteries are "MORE safe on the ground? http://www.wsj.com/articles/faa-tightens-safeguards-on-lithium-batteries-on-jetliners-smaller-planes-1472302614

Many people will spend several thousand dollars more on a hybrid, then drive it 30,000 miles over 4 years while congratulating themselves on all the money they "saved".

ruking1

In the 2003/2004 timeframe, I compared the Prius ($25,000) 40 to 43 mpg vs Honda Civic ($12,640) 38 to 42 mpg, (the Prius costing $12,360 MORE) for day in day out 55 miles per day commute app 18,000 miles per yr. I really wanted to try the 2003/2004 @ that timeframe. Choosing was a no brainer.

The cost of cars has only increased since then!? So like you, I have to shake/ scratch my head. But, to each their own.

Here is WSJ confirmation that the EV car will cost a minimum of 2 to 3 times more than it's equivalent gas counterpart! http://www.wsj.com/articles/why-electric-cars-will-be-here-sooner-than-you-think-1472402674

The anti diesel folk got all in a lather when diesels were app $ 1 to 3 k more than GASSERS? No real word if EV's can even match the 11/12 year old gasser PVF metrics.

ruking1

I filled out the VW diesel claims form. As I it turns out by September 2018, (app 140,000 to 145,000 miles) CPMD: depreciation = .app 05 cents. So most to all articles have not been accurate. (2009 VW Jetta TDI, $12,975) When I include GW of $1,000, IRS TC of $1,300, that drops the cpmd: depreciation -.0164285 or .= 0335715 cpmd: depreciation.

Hopefully, we should hear from the early "fix" adopters.

Environ cons full court press to upend diesel/gas and then incessant whining about how low prices threaten the economy! ?http://ftijournal.com/article/the-big-drop-how-the-low-price-of-oil-is-affecting-the-oil-and-gas-industry?utm_source=Taboola&utm_medium=CPC&utm_term=Evergreen Content&utm_campaign=Status

stever

Was there something in the link I missed about "enviro cons"? Or whining? The whining going on in New Mexico is the oil and gas lobby wanting NM to be "more like Texas" when it comes to catering to the oil and gas industry. Meanwhile the letters to the editors page always has comments from people suggesting we subsidize big solar farms instead.

T'was interesting about natural gas. I know my propane has been cheap but didn't realize that nat. gas has fallen by a bigger percentage than crude.

ruking1

Advantage DIESEL! http://finance.yahoo.com/news/downsides-always-keeping-gas-tank-110047078.html

With gas buddy & a min of 30% better mpg, I fill when the low fuel lamp comes on! If I can't pass up a deal, I over amp by filling @ 1/8th tank & under.